Episodes 7.01 "the Hofstadter Insufficiency" (September 26)

[Chrismo]

 

1. Penny did not actually know it was a date.
2. It was a very awkward dinner.
3. Leonard was bleeding after he hit his head under the table.
4. Leonard was calm and cool for about 30 seconds only.

My point is it was not the lack of sex the resulted in them not having a date for a long time.

Penny herself talks about rebound sex and how she typically feels after it. Not good. Here is the clip.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2mtao0T

"

That was the third episode of the first episode. You're right Penny didn't know it was a date. Their first "real date" was the end of season 1 and it was just one date and it didn't end well because of both their perceptions of her lack of education. In regards to L/P having nothing in common on paper that's true. But Leonard has always been the most normal of the guys and IMO he was looking for something different. When they broke up during season 3 there lack of something in common was certainly a factor. When they got back together in season 5 them having nothing in common wasn't true anymore. H/S had girlfriends and Penny was friends with them. I think that led to him asking her out again. Certainly Penny made the biggest changes by adapting herself to the "Nerd World" but part of that was she didn't like her old world. Will L/P ever have as much in common as S/A? No. But I think at this point of their lives they both done enough to make it work.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Chrismo

[Carlos]

And let's not forget that it is NOT necessary to have a lot of things in common with another person to fall in love with them. It helps, but it is NOT absolutely necessary. The heart wants what the heart wants.....

[ManuelTheAnswer]

And let's not forget that it is NOT necessary to have a lot of things in common with another person to fall in love with them. It helps, but it is NOT absolutely necessary. The heart wants what the heart wants.....

True.

 

 

However,i loved this episode,lil' less the second,but good way to start the new season.

[3ku11]

 

1. Penny did not actually know it was a date.
2. It was a very awkward dinner.
3. Leonard was bleeding after he hit his head under the table.
4. Leonard was calm and cool for about 30 seconds only.

My point is it was not the lack of sex the resulted in them not having a date for a long time.

Penny herself talks about rebound sex and how she typically feels after it. Not good. Here is the clip.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2mtao0deTk

 

It becomes a little harder for me to go through and check how factual some of your other statements are since I don't have a box set of old episodes and even if I did who has time to review the whole series. I do recall that Penny herself has said on the morning after more than once that the night before was a mistake. Also, on more than one occasion Leonard has assumed the night before meant something that it actually did not (well once with Penny and once with Leslie Winkle just off the top of my head).

 

I wasen't actually refering to that date, I was refering to their first real date in 1x17 and 2x01, when Leonard asked her out in the finalie and Penny said yes. And they diddn't end the date with sleeping with each other, because Penny was worried she wasen't smart enough for Leonard, since then they have both grown over the course of the next 5 seasons, and have a lot more in common and are pratically equals now. When your referencing Penny are you refering to her dating history with Leonard? Or just in general. Because Leonard and Penny did not actually sleep together properly till 3x01, when they first got together properly, other time's were when Beverley visited, and Leonard and Penny bonded over their respective parent's, and they almost had sex but diddn't get that far. And tbh on that occasion Leonard screwed up so Penny had every right to kick him out, I think Leonard said they are both thinking of their parents lol. And other time's were just after they broke up, and for the record in that clip yes it was awkward not because Penny was talking about her sexual activity with the guy she was dating at that point (for the record I don't think she as refering to rebound sex, she was talking about most of the relationship with that guy she was dating was about sex, but come one she was 21 then young, idealistic she fell for guy's who ended up mistreating her), she is now 27 she has grown a lot, so it is not a fair estimated to compare Season 1 Penny and Season 7 Penny and make a judgement based on that, you need to consider the many variables.

 

But the date was more awkward because Penny had no idea it actually was a real date, at the end of the dinner when they came back home, she even asked Leonard if this was a date, Leonard awkwardly and subtley denied it was haha. Through out the whole of the first season Leonard and Penny spent more time as friend's then actually dating, seeing they diddn't actually have their first date till the premiere of Season 2, through that point they developed a friendship over time, even in Season 2 when Penny was struggling with her finances and expenses, Leonard helped her out a lot with that, prooving their was a relationship their beyond just hopping into bed with a guy. I remember in Season 2 in The Barbarian Sublimation, Penny revealed to Sheldon and later on Leonard found out that Penny haden't had sex in 6 months, so my point is yes Penny had rebound sex with guy's she met after a break up maybe a month after, but the actual sex in a relationship was with the guy she was actually dating, maybe Penny was naive, idealistic, and like I said most of the guy's she dated were good looking, rich, succesfull e.t.c. And all fitted Penny's ideal's when she was 21 of wanting to become a big movie star.

 

As she got older even by The Barbarian Sublimation thing's weren't working out as she planned, I do remember that whole Season she dated Stuart from the comic book store, but that diddn't last as she was really sub-conciousley using Stuart as a subsistute for Leonard, other then that Penny's dating life style started becoming less active and more refined, she got more immersed in the guy's especially Leonard's activities. So yeah Penny talked about in that clip about rebound sex, but she was 21 and the fact even then she was showing regret for her action's, and that clip showed she fell for guy's who were really charming, and the context of the relationship she was currently in then was a lot about sex, but we got too keep in mind she was 21 then, she was idealistic and impressionable, she was obviousley too passionate about becoming a big star, so probably fell for guy's who had same common goal's and values. But like I said in the BS when she revealed not to have sex for six month's, her dating dumb guy's and the actual sex in those relationship's reflected the characteristics of those relationship's, really started to change after her date with Leonard in 2x01, the same guy's she used to fell for, just weren't having the impact they used too, her tolerance for dumb guy's like Eric for example were starting to wear off, and started to realize their is more to relationship's, then just good looks and money, and obviousley sex was the composite of those relationship's.

 

Leonard was starting to challenge her more intellectually then any other guy's did, and tbh through out of S2 they really became best friend's. And since Season 3 Penny has grown tremendousley, the only time Leonard and Penny actually consented to sex was when they were in a relationship, to me Leonard and Penny showed a lot of commitment to each other even then, even when they broke up it was for very relevant reason's, Penny was not ready for a serious commitment and Leonard needed some growing to do. So obviousley then full bodied commitment was not their because they weren't in the same place then, but now with Leonard dating Priya, and now they have had matured I feel they have more in common then they have ever had. Penny's self-actulization used to based on her becoming a big movie star, and that defined her happiness and success, but with her emotional intelligence evolving, her outlook on her life has now been deconstructed, society expects certain social conventional standard's based on the person you are, Penny is gorgeous, street smart, free spirited so she is expected to date and marry someone who most suits that.

 

Leonard is intelligent, geeky, and a Physicist so is expected to date someone more suited to him like Stephanie or Priya for example. But as they grow they are now realizing that the social convention is not always relevant to how you feel about someone, because of that their is a equal partnership growing and mutual understanding developing between Leonard and Penny, as their differences are skin deep, but their same's go straight to the bone. So I would say 70 % of the series Leonard and Penny were Friend's even when they were dating, 10% of time Penny had physical relationship's that consisted of sex with other guy's, and 5 % of that was with Leonard. 

Edited October 4, 2013 by 3ku11

[Martian Girl]

The episode was obviously dedicated to Shenny shippers. That's not my cup of tea, but I understand it floats many boats.

 

I liked the conversation on astronomers and dung beetles, all dialogues between Amy and Bernadette, and the interaction between Raj and Mrs. Davis. It seems to me that Mrs. Davis slowly becomes the type of "only sane woman" in the academic environment, and the show was very much in need of such a character, as it highlights the absurdity associated with the main characters. On the other hand, her "grown-up" viewpoint prompts the audience to see them as very childish and maybe a little bit pathetic, and I'm not sure whether it's a good thing.

 

I agree that Sheldon suddenly became more emotional (or at least more willing to express his emotions). I'm wondering whether this is a part of setting the stage for a new turn of events in Shamy's arc?

Edited October 5, 2013 by Martian Girl

[djsurrey]

The episode was obviously dedicated to Shenny shippers. That's not my cup of tea, but I understand it floats many boats.

 

I liked the conversation on astronomers and dung beetles, all dialogues between Amy and Bernadette, and the interaction between Raj and Mrs. Davis. It seems to me that Mrs. Davis slowly becomes the type of "only sane woman" in the academic environment, and the show was very much in need of such a character, as it highlights the absurdity associated with the main characters. On the other hand, her "grown-up" viewpoint prompts the audience to see them as very childish and maybe a little bit pathetic, and I'm not sure whether it's a good thing.

 

I agree that Sheldon suddenly became more emotional (or at least more willing to express his emotions). I'm wondering whether this is a part of setting the stage for a new turn of events in Shamy's arc?

 

No episodes are dedicated to Shenny shippers. They are all dedicated to comedy.

I think Mrs. Davis was used to give Raj someone to interact with in this episode. While some story arcs sort of exist in TBBT the writers have indicated they don't have big plans off into the future. They essentially write as they go. It is not like Harry Potter with a big story planned in advance and many layers of subplots. TBBT is mostly just funny subplots. Some of them get picked up again down the line without a lot of planning. I think a lot of the "shippers" are constructing stuff in their heads.

[djsurrey]

 

Leonard is intelligent, geeky, and a Physicist so is expected to date someone more suited to him like Stephanie or Priya for example. But as they grow they are now realizing that the social convention is not always relevant to how you feel about someone, because of that their is a equal partnership growing and mutual understanding developing between Leonard and Penny, as their differences are skin deep, but their same's go straight to the bone.

I hope you will forgive me but I really can only respond to bits of what you say at a time.

 

I don't think that actually exists as a convention. Perhaps it would be a more common for someone with a Ph.D. to date someone who at least has some degree or some completion of post secondary. Not necessarily to the same level. The issue being people either think post secondary education is important or they don't. Or perhaps they think some post secondary education is important. Getting a PhD implies a very big dedication to ones own education. Being intelligent is only part of what it takes. It take some sacrifice to get a B.Sc. and much more to get a M.Sc. and a PhD. The difference here is not skin deep.

 

You say "...but their same's go straight to the bone."

I don't see evidence in the show that this is true. I agree that they have affection for each other. That much is clear. They have both said they love the other now. I don't see anything that is the same that goes to the bone. It sounds to me like you are just wishing this were true or basing this more on fan fiction than the actual show.

 

 

...but now with Leonard dating Priya, and now they have had matured I feel they have more in common then they have ever had.

Not really. Penny did have a chance to realize she could loose Leonard.

 

I don't think Penny or Leonard have changed very much. The following exchange is from S6E5

 

 

Bernadette: Leonard does thing he doesn’t like to make you happy.

Penny: Well, yeah, he’s my boyfriend. Isn’t that, like, his job?

Amy: Then what’s your job?

Penny: Letting him make me happy.

Bernadette: I just think in relationships you get back what you put into them.

Amy: That’s not always true. Last night I gave Sheldon my best come-hither look, and he responded by explaining how wheat came to be cultivated.

Penny: I guess I could probably try a little harder.

Bernadette: You could start by taking an interest in his work.

Penny: Yeah, that’s kind of a problem.

Amy: Why?

Penny: Not really clear on what he does.

Bernadette: He’s an experimental physicist.

Penny: Yeah, I’m not really clear on what that means.

Amy: He takes hypotheses and designs protocols to determine their accuracy.

Penny: Yeah, you’re really just making it worse.

 

So she goes to his lab for the first time and he shows her a little bit and then they have sex. I don't see any growth here. OK, Leonard is not shy around Penny anymore and he is a lot more slick than when he showed her the olive in the glass and bumped his head. Penny made it to the lab after been told to by her friends. Was there some epiphany. No, they just had sex and it put a smile on Leonard's face. There is nothing particularly mature about Leonard telling the people on the ship "that's my girlfriend" either. Yes he is proud he has a good looking girlfriend. Same as he might be showing off a fancy car.

[Nogravitasatall]

I have not kept notes on such things but if true this may have given their relationship it's resiliency.

Well, it is an important part of the characterisations and informs any interpretation. They are a couple that seem to come back to each other. There must be something there that may not be apparent to the observer, yet a force or drive is at work.

 

So she goes to his lab for the first time and he shows her a little bit and then they have sex. I don't see any growth here. OK, Leonard is not shy around Penny anymore and he is a lot more slick than when he showed her the olive in the glass and bumped his head. Penny made it to the lab after been told to by her friends. Was there some epiphany. No, they just had sex and it put a smile on Leonard's face. There is nothing particularly mature about Leonard telling the people on the ship "that's my girlfriend" either. Yes he is proud he has a good looking girlfriend. Same as he might be showing off a fancy car.

Hmm. I guess one either drinks the Kool-Aid and suspends disbelief or not. And the interpretation that pride in one's girlfriend's achievements is like showing off a fancy car is a very cold reading. It may be so, but given the emotional interactions these two have engaged in, where simple acquisitiveness, intoxication or ready sexual gratification does not readily explain the need they apparently feel to be together, in the face of the obvious differences, it maybe a bit cynical. Seven years of interaction, with no particular external compulsions to stay together, probably needs a deeper explanation.

[Martian Girl]

No episodes are dedicated to Shenny shippers. They are all dedicated to comedy.

 

We don't know, do we? Sometimes I wonder whether, and in what degree, long TV shows are influenced by the creators' observations on fandom's reactions and desires.

 

I think a lot of the "shippers" are constructing stuff in their heads.

 

I think that's what shipping it's all about: planting a new story in the soil of the original one and watching it grow - or not. And if there's no growth, the new story becomes an AU of a sort. I don't suppose all that process has much to do with the intention of the creators of the original, but then every story, once published, begins a life on its own.

 

I think Mrs. Davis was used to give Raj someone to interact with in this episode. While some story arcs sort of exist in TBBT the writers have indicated they don't have big plans off into the future. They essentially write as they go.

 

OK, I think you're right, it's a sitcom after all.

[djsurrey]

Well, it is an important part of the characterisations and informs any interpretation. They are a couple that seem to come back to each other. There must be something there that may not be apparent to the observer, yet a force or drive is at work.

 

Hmm. I guess one either drinks the Kool-Aid and suspends disbelief or not. And the interpretation that pride in one's girlfriend's achievements is like showing off a fancy car is a very cold reading. It may be so, but given the emotional interactions these two have engaged in, where simple acquisitiveness, intoxication or ready sexual gratification does not readily explain the need they apparently feel to be together, in the face of the obvious differences, it maybe a bit cynical. Seven years of interaction, with no particular external compulsions to stay together, probably needs a deeper explanation.

I think the deeper explanation is simply their differences set up good comedy.

[djsurrey]

 

I think that's what shipping it's all about: planting a new story in the soil of the original one and watching it grow - or not. And if there's no growth, the new story becomes an AU of a sort. I don't suppose all that process has much to do with the intention of the creators of the original, but then every story, once published, begins a life on its own.

In all seriousness I have never quite understood what "shipping" was all about. This has perplexed me before. I got onto the Stargate SG-1 forum years ago after witnessing an on location shoot. Never could grasp what to me seems like an odd compulsion. For a guy like me this is sort of like false data (signal noise).

[Nogravitasatall]

I think the deeper explanation is simply their differences set up good comedy.

Yes, how could it be funny if Leonard was displaying Penny as a trophy. Maybe if he was a creep, sort of, if he got a comeuppance. But he is an idiot in love, so it has to be for comedic purpose and therefore NOT creepy. If there is a dark and a light side to the joke I take the light side. Generally. Except for a bit in 7.04. But I got over that.

[Lord Zog]

After so long a friendship Leonard's reason for being in love with Penny can't be just her appearances. She's not just a trophy girlfriend for him, Leonard is usually not portraied being so shallow.

Well, at least not completely. I still love the last scene when he is a total ass showing off with his nude-scene-actor-girlfriend in front of all his drunken collegues! :D

 

BTW, I love that Reinhold Messner-Look on him, with that beard!

Is there a name for thet, too? Reinhard? Leonhold?

 

Or Grizzly Hoffstatter? ... Grizznard Adstatter...?

[djsurrey]

Yes, how could it be funny if Leonard was displaying Penny as a trophy. Maybe if he was a creep, sort of, if he got a comeuppance. But he is an idiot in love, so it has to be for comedic purpose and therefore NOT creepy. If there is a dark and a light side to the joke I take the light side. Generally. Except for a bit in 7.04. But I got over that.

7.04? It has not aired yet.

You are doing a good impersonation of Leonard here. I can almost hear his voice.

"...so it has to be for comedic purpose and therefore NOT creepy."

 

Not so much creepy as imprudent, tactless and lacking discretion. Is this a movie Penny would like to have shared? Did he ever ask how she felt about being in that movie?

This is not so much an issue of light and dark as tact and discretion. Often when one lacks discretion it will come back to bite.

Edited October 8, 2013 by djsurrey

[djsurrey]

After so long a friendship Leonard's reason for being in love with Penny can't be just her appearances. She's not just a trophy girlfriend for him, Leonard is usually not portraied being so shallow.

Well, at least not completely. I still love the last scene when he is a total ass showing off with his nude-scene-actor-girlfriend in front of all his drunken collegues! :D

 

BTW, I love that Reinhold Messner-Look on him, with that beard!

Is there a name for thet, too? Reinhard? Leonhold?

 

Or Grizzly Hoffstatter? ... Grizznard Adstatter...?

After so long he can not be quite so infatuated as he was when he said "our babies will be smart and beautiful".

 

 

Or one might have thought before the last scene of 7.01 where Leonard was not so smart as one might have expected. After 7 years one might have expected him to have learned a bit more.

[3ku11]

That's why I find it riduclous people still say Leonard love's Penny and values her as a sex object, they have known each other for seven years. The dynmaic and the chemistry between Leonard and Penny used to be the geek desiring the hot girl next door. As the show evolved over the years, and as the show changed from a cute show about eggheads and their hottie neighbour next door into an esemble piece, so did Leonard and Penny's relationship and how they value each other. Leonard and Penny are arguably best friend's, and Leonard is just as socially relevant to Penny as any of her other friend's, I also think the reason we haven't seen any of Penny's friends, since Season One is probably the fact Penny out grew them, as she matured she probably found herself out growing going out every Saturday, or socializing with people who she had more in common with when she was 21, and had idealistic dreams of being a big movie star, so her peers and the guy's she dated encompassed this. Now she is 27 Bernadette and Amy are more her closest friend's, and with her relationship with Leonard reflecting her maturity, her apartment has become a lot more tidy now, which also reflect's her change, and how she has become a lot more domesticated too, like pre-planning meals with Leonard, doing dishes .e.tc. So I see Leonard learning how to converse with Penny based on the place they are in their life's, I feel the beta version of their relationship in S5 taught them to talk about their issues, opposed to push/resist with their issues in S3. For instance in The Guitar Amplification, Leonard and Penny had a huge fight about an ex bf staying on Penny's couch, Leonard's argument was they are in a relationship and Penny should of at least ran it by him, Penny argued that it is her life and she can what she want's. Leonard felt Penny was really immature about the whole thing, and it reinforced his insecurities about being in a relationship with a women who is way out of his league, they eventually sorted it out. But I Felt the beta version taught them the art of compromise, and if you go back to last season with The Tangible Affection, in the VD ep, they talked through their issues honestly, Penny revealing her fear of marrage, and Leonard challenging Penny to be a lot more honest, the result was their relationship becoming stronger as a result. For the record I have never thought Leonard saw Penny as a sex object, sure that was the initial attraction, but even in the first season they developed a friendship, and stuff like in S2 when Leonard helped Penny with her expenses, after Sheldon lent her some money haha, he tried to help her out e.tc. 

[Nogravitasatall]

7.04? It has not aired yet.

You are doing a good impersonation of Leonard here. I can almost hear his voice.

"...so it has to be for comedic purpose and therefore NOT creepy."

 

Not so much creepy as imprudent, tactless and lacking discretion. Is this a movie Penny would like to have shared? Did he ever ask how she felt about being in that movie?

This is not so much an issue of light and dark as tact and discretion. Often when one lacks discretion it will come back to bite.

"...imprudent, tactless and lacking discretion..." is just about the recipe for most comedy. Prudent, tactful and discrete is not generally a guarantee of a belly laugh. And I have seen Penny's response to the news that she was outed as an actress. She was shocked, but NOT horrified. And it's a comedy so generally there are no bruises. Of course it may come back to bite. It's got potential as material. But I think it won't. I may be wrong. But I laughed when I saw it and in the context of a comedy my opinion is its fine, as a joke.

(And the 7.04 reference was in relation to my response to the taping report )

[Lord Zog]

And I have seen Penny's response to the news that she was outed as an actress. She was shocked, but NOT horrified.

Where did You see that?! There wasn't anything after Leonard outing her to his collegues, or did I miss something?

 

Or one might have thought before the last scene of 7.01 where Leonard was not so smart as one might have expected. After 7 years one might have expected him to have learned a bit more.

Having the time his life, bein on a party, surrounded by people who think he's cool... AND being drunk, that would anyone prevent from doing the clever thing!

 

BTW I think it's a pity that this part doesn't get enough attention after his trip: Leonard being the centre of the party, bein surrounded by people who seem to think he's cool, that should have done something to his self-esteem. But it obviously evaporated the moment he shaved his beard off!

 

Ok, he is and always was the centre of his nerd-group back home, but let's be honest: they never thought that he was cool! Obviously no one ever did! (...except maybe Sheldon's assistant.)

[Nogravitasatall]

Where did You see that?! There wasn't anything after Leonard outing her to his collegues, or did I miss something?

 

When Sheldon tells her they all had seen the film. There was a hand to mouth moment of shock, then she moved on. There was no big problem, so far as I could see. The bigger problem is how Howard kept his mouth shut about it for so many years. Lol.

Maybe Leonard was being a little out there, but he had no malicious intent, and Penny made a film, damn it. A real one, with sets and props and everything. And schlock horror is a great link to the boys nerd culture. It was a genetically modified killer gorilla, so science too!

[djsurrey]

"...imprudent, tactless and lacking discretion..." is just about the recipe for most comedy. Prudent, tactful and discrete is not generally a guarantee of a belly laugh. And I have seen Penny's response to the news that she was outed as an actress. She was shocked, but NOT horrified. And it's a comedy so generally there are no bruises. Of course it may come back to bite. It's got potential as material. But I think it won't. I may be wrong. But I laughed when I saw it and in the context of a comedy my opinion is its fine, as a joke.

(And the 7.04 reference was in relation to my response to the taping report )

 

 

Yes I agree with Nogravitasatall here.

.

3ku11 said

For instance in The Guitar Amplification, Leonard and Penny had a huge fight about an ex bf staying on Penny's couch, Leonard's argument was they are in a relationship and Penny should of at least ran it by him, Penny argued that it is her life and she can what she want's. Leonard felt Penny was really immature about the whole thing, and it reinforced his insecurities about being in a relationship with a women who is way out of his league, they eventually sorted it out.

 

No. Leonard had never believed Penny is out of his League. He has had all sorts of issues but that was never one of them. His insecurity was in the episode you mention probably stems from Penny's history with boyfriends (and others). They did not so much work things out as get distracted by Sheldon running away. If anything that episode showed they are OK as long as they are focused on something outside their relationship.

[3ku11]

^ Completley disagree in the end of the ep Penny said "who cares he's a musician he can sleep in his own filth for I care". Actually he ended up sleeping by Sheldon lol, so although their were no specific scene showing evidence, they found a benificial redoloution, after Sheldon had a mentle in the comic book store haha. To them cudlling im bed implies they sorted things out, it also devalued everyones view that Penny hulked out and broke up with Leonard everytime they had a fight, I even remember when Penny in the comic book store with Leonard talking to Sheldon like he was their kid haha. She said "Sheldon were in a relationship so sometimes were going to have arguments, but no matter what we well always love you" Sheldon was like "can I buy this? Penny "yes you can!". This showed me that regardless of any issues that may come up, they were committed to their relationship. And although Leonard through his actions or verbally never actually illuded to the fact he beleives Penny is out of his league, but Leonard being insecure about her dating history with other guys, sure that has been the obvious factor beyond his insecurities, maybe Penny has dated guys who are perceived sexually or physically supeior to him. But thats just touching the surface, that encompasses his insecurities, Penny being out of his league has always been implied and an unspoken thing based on societies rule's and expectations.

Go back to the car scene although Penmy has never professed to be out of Leonards league, I remember he was like " Oh you think your doimg me a favor beng in a relationship with me, no Leonard im doing a favor just being the same room as you". So this reinforced his self esteem issues back and the implied and unspoken idea to Leonard Penny is out of his league, which was the heart of his insecurities. Obviousley both have matured sinc.

Edited October 9, 2013 by 3ku11

[Lord Zog]

When Sheldon tells her they all had seen the film. There was a hand to mouth moment of shock, then she moved on. There was no big problem, so far as I could see. The bigger problem is how Howard kept his mouth shut about it for so many years. Lol.

Ah, of course! Now I got it! Thanks.

 

Yes I agree with Nogravitasatall here.

.

3ku11 said

 

No. Leonard had never believed Penny is out of his League. He has had all sorts of issues but that was never one of them. His insecurity was in the episode you mention probably stems from Penny's history with boyfriends (and others). They did not so much work things out as get distracted by Sheldon running away. If anything that episode showed they are OK as long as they are focused on something outside their relationship.

I'm not so sure about that. I watched The Guitar Amplification not so long ago and I clearly remember Leonard complaining about Penny obviously believing she is out of his league and acting like it. (In his opinion, that is.)

But agreed, that doesn't have to mean that he believes it, too - though I wouldn't be surprised if he did, at least subconsciously. He always had low self esteem. And he clearly behaved like it on The Guitar Amplification.

[djsurrey]

Ah, of course! Now I got it! Thanks.

 

I'm not so sure about that. I watched The Guitar Amplification not so long ago and I clearly remember Leonard complaining about Penny obviously believing she is out of his league and acting like it. (In his opinion, that is.)

But agreed, that doesn't have to mean that he believes it, too - though I wouldn't be surprised if he did, at least subconsciously. He always had low self esteem. And he clearly behaved like it on The Guitar Amplification.

 

So, Leonard and Sheldon are in the car. Sheldon wants to play a game and Leonard is obsessing over the situation with Penny and her old ex.

 

Leonard: What am I supposed to say? Sure, Penny, I’m cool with your old boyfriend sleeping in your apartment. Well, Leonard, it doesn’t matter if you’re cool or not because I’m Penny and I’m pretty and I can do whatever the hell I want! Oh, I get it! You think you’re doing me a favour just by being in a relationship with me! No, no, Leonard! I’m doing you a favour just by being in the same room as you!

This is simply how Leonard sees Penny's recent behavior. It was certainly not Leonard's position that Penny could do whatever she wanted. He thinks he is being badly treated here.

 

Later when he is with Penny she says

 

 

Penny: Are you ready to apologize?

Leonard: No.

Penny: E-e-e-e-eh! Wrong answer, but thank you for playing.

Leonard: Oh, come on. This is stupid.

Penny: Oh, there it is again! You think I’m stupid!

Leonard: No, there’s a difference between being stupid and acting stupid.

Penny: Oh, yeah? well, there’s a difference between being a jerk and being an ass!

Leonard: No, there isn’t! They’re synonyms!

He does not sound like a man who thinks he is talking to someone above his own stature!

 

Much later

 

Penny: I hear you don’t like my stuffed animals, my driving or my punctuality.

Leonard: What? Who would tell you something like that? Why would you tell her something like that?

Penny: It doesn’t matter why he told me. It’s true, isn’t it?

Leonard: Okay, yeah, it’s true, but I can live with that stuff. What I can’t live with is you casually informing me that some guy’s going to be staying in your apartment without even asking me first!

Penny: That isn’t even your problem, the problem is you don’t trust me!

So there it is from Penny. Leonard does not trust her. They never get to explore that any farther because Sheldon runs away.

Does anyone know why Leonard does not trust Penny? She has a history. Truth be told she should not trust herself either because she does have a problem with self control when she drinks. This is not really about Leonard thinking Penny is out of his league at all.

S1E1 it was Sheldon who thought Penny was out of Leonard's league. Leonard thought they would have babies that were both beautiful and smart (based on nothing at all -- he did not really even know her yet). If Leonard thought he did not have a shot from the beginning he would not have bothered trying to get the TV back.

Edited October 9, 2013 by djsurrey

[djsurrey]

^ Completley disagree in the end of the ep Penny said "who cares he's a musician he can sleep in his own filth for I care". Actually he ended up sleeping by Sheldon lol, so although their were no specific scene showing evidence, they found a benificial redoloution, after Sheldon had a mentle in the comic book store haha. To them cudlling im bed implies they sorted things out, it also devalued everyones view that Penny hulked out and broke up with Leonard everytime they had a fight, I even remember when Penny in the comic book store with Leonard talking to Sheldon like he was their kid haha. She said "Sheldon were in a relationship so sometimes were going to have arguments, but no matter what we well always love you" Sheldon was like "can I buy this? Penny "yes you can!". This showed me that regardless of any issues that may come up, they were committed to their relationship. And although Leonard through his actions or verbally never actually illuded to the fact he beleives Penny is out of his league, but Leonard being insecure about her dating history with other guys, sure that has been the obvious factor beyond his insecurities, maybe Penny has dated guys who are perceived sexually or physically supeior to him. But thats just touching the surface, that encompasses his insecurities, Penny being out of his league has always been implied and an unspoken thing based on societies rule's and expectations.

Go back to the car scene although Penmy has never professed to be out of Leonards league, I remember he was like " Oh you think your doimg me a favor beng in a relationship with me, no Leonard im doing a favor just being the same room as you". So this reinforced his self esteem issues back and the implied and unspoken idea to Leonard Penny is out of his league, which was the heart of his insecurities. Obviousley both have matured sinc.

 

So my response to Lord Zog touched on some of this.

I copied the actual dialog from http://bigbangtrans.wordpress.com/series-3-episode-07-the-guitarist-amplification/

I think your analysis fits better with some stereotypical high-school nerd likes cheerleader movies/series.  It is not true to TBBT. If anything Penny thinks she is not in Leonard's League and to a certain extent she is right but he loves her anyway.

 

All over the place you say they have both matured. Not true in my opinion. I don't think they have really changed much at all. Too much comedy would evaporate if they did.

[3ku11]

So my response to Lord Zog touched on some of this.

I copied the actual dialog from http://bigbangtrans.wordpress.com/series-3-episode-07-the-guitarist-amplification/

I think your analysis fits better with some stereotypical high-school nerd likes cheerleader movies/series.  It is not true to TBBT. If anything Penny thinks she is not in Leonard's League and to a certain extent she is right but he loves her anyway.

 

All over the place you say they have both matured. Not true in my opinion. I don't think they have really changed much at all. Too much comedy would evaporate if they did.

Did I ever say that Penny feel's she is not in Leonard's league? If you have seen most of my post's you well notice I have always said Penny feel's she is not smart enough for Leonard. And I am sorry but you are doing the very thing your just trying to argue againgst, you are sterotyping TBBT, comedy can still be sustained while maturing the characters at the same time. Do you really think Leonard and Penny would be together right now if they haven't matured? I'm sorry but if you have watched 4-7 and still have not seen any maturity at all, your missing some of the episode's, I am only saying this because most people I have read or seen have all agreed Penny and Leonard have matured substantially. The beta version test of their relationship back in Season 5 taught them to compromise more in their relationship, and you seem to be imply Penny has not changed at all since Season 1, you can't be serious, Penny's tidy apartment and how she is really domesticated, and pre planning meal's is a huge change from the Penny who was so messy, when she was 21 and idealistic. The spoiler alert ep last season, showed the change in her life, and how her self-actulization has changed, her happiness and success used to be defined by her being a star, it has now been deconstructed and now her expectations of he relationship's and career has been lowered, she is realizing it is not always relevant to how you feel about someone. Leonard has also matured as he has gained a lot more confidence from his relationship with Priya, also Alex showed that Penny has insecurities that she never thought she had, she has always been insecure about her relationship with Leonard, always though he was too good for her, that's probably one of the many reasons why she dated gym type's when she was 21. If Leonard and Penny haven't changed much at all, I doubt that VD ep last year would of occured, if that was S3 Leonard and Penny would of had a big fight, and Penny would of hulked out and slammed the door in Leonard's face, and Leonard woulden't of barged his way into her apartment and challenged her on her fear of marrage. Regardless or not if Penny also has insecurities in their relationship, Leonard wasen't aware of this till Season 6, just like Penny wasen't aware of Leonard's insecurities of other guy's she had dated till S^ 43 Penc, doesen't change the fact they had them, and this does not mean their relationship can be generalized or stereotyped as a typical Highschool nerd dating cheerleader scenario, not sure how that is relevant to TBBT, Leonard is more then a Geek he is a succesfull Physcist who at the end of the day prob brings alot more to their relationship, then just external qualities. Penny obviousley is becoming a lot more aware of this, or she woulden't be going back to college, I doubt Season One or Two Penny if they were dating would of gone back to college, she was idealistic, and her ideals and values, and her peers and the guy's she dated or encompassed her dream of wanting to become a big movie star, it all came back to that. Everyone has different preferances when it comes to the comedy in the show, not sure how Leonard being the nerd and Penny being the hot girl next door can be sustained for Seven seasons, in terms of getting the comedy out of it, fans of the show also want too see progress and maturity in their relationship, look at Shamy fan's do you think if they had a choice they would want comedy out of their relationship, or want a SIK from Sheldon and see more physical intimacy from him. IMO I don't think the writers base their comedy whether or not the characters have matured or not, Leonard and Penny dated a lot in Season 3 and it was still very funny, the relationship's are just as important as the comedy always has been. It's obvious Penny and Leonard have matured and changed a lot, the writer's are still getting the comedy out of their relationship through story arc's, but that is completely seperate from character development.