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7.01 "the Hofstadter Insufficiency" (September 26)

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Did I ever say that Penny feel's she is not in Leonard's league? If you have seen most of my post's you well notice I have always said Penny feel's she is not smart enough for Leonard. And I am sorry but you are doing the very thing your just trying to argue againgst, you are sterotyping TBBT, comedy can still be sustained while maturing the characters at the same time. Do you really think Leonard and Penny would be together right now if they haven't matured?

No I don't think they would be together but low probability things happen sometimes.

 

 

Everyone has different preferances when it comes to the comedy in the show, not sure how Leonard being the nerd and Penny being the hot girl next door can be sustained for Seven seasons,

I have maintained the three primary characters have changed very little while change has occurred in the peripheral characters and of course new characters have come onto the show. I will grant that Penny has realized on  occasion that she could loose Leonard (don't think it will happen unless she runs over him with her car or the kracken really does get him). Penny did take a college course but she cheated on her term paper so no I don't think she has matured. Leonard wanted to help her cheat so I don't think he acted mature either.

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Sorry if I am out of discussion but I need to say that I LOVED how the new season started, funny and sparkling episode for me :) I remember I felt so upset with the firsts episodes of  season 6... I am happy that this time they started with all the energy, I was missing them so much!

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No I don't think they would be together but low probability things happen sometimes.

 

I have maintained the three primary characters have changed very little while change has occurred in the peripheral characters and of course new characters have come onto the show. I will grant that Penny has realized on  occasion that she could loose Leonard (don't think it will happen unless she runs over him with her car or the kracken really does get him). Penny did take a college course but she cheated on her term paper so no I don't think she has matured. Leonard wanted to help her cheat so I don't think he acted mature either.

I don't think you can justify the character's lack of maturity based on a paper that Penny did and cheated, for the record she diddn't cheat she got Bernadette and Amy to take it for her to proove a point to Leonard. And Leonard never wanted to help Penny she cheat, he actually showed up to her apartment with text book's, but this was Penny's problem she wanted to this thing on her own without help from Leonard. That was a more a plot device from an episode, I don't think you can sum up the character development based on one episode and story arch, their are just too many variables to consider. I don't think anyone can say that Penny S1 has not changed at all to S7 Penny, that is short sighted regardless of your opinion. S1 Penny would of never of decided to go back to college, she had these idealistic dream's of becoming a star, nothing short of that was acceptable, and it defined her success and happiness. This is all transferred to her peer's, the guy's she dated ala Kurt. And for the record it wasen't that Leonard doesen't trust her completly, his lack of trust in her was based on her past dating history and particularly with this guy, and the fact she lied to him, diddn't even show him the common courtesy of letting Leonard know that a guy she dated was going to stay on her couch, their was a lack of trust and honesty between the two from Leonard's point of view. 

 

So, Leonard and Sheldon are in the car. Sheldon wants to play a game and Leonard is obsessing over the situation with Penny and her old ex.

This is simply how Leonard sees Penny's recent behavior. It was certainly not Leonard's position that Penny could do whatever she wanted. He thinks he is being badly treated here.

 

Later when he is with Penny she says

 

He does not sound like a man who thinks he is talking to someone above his own stature!

 

Much later

So there it is from Penny. Leonard does not trust her. They never get to explore that any farther because Sheldon runs away.

Does anyone know why Leonard does not trust Penny? She has a history. Truth be told she should not trust herself either because she does have a problem with self control when she drinks. This is not really about Leonard thinking Penny is out of his league at all.

S1E1 it was Sheldon who thought Penny was out of Leonard's league. Leonard thought they would have babies that were both beautiful and smart (based on nothing at all -- he did not really even know her yet). If Leonard thought he did not have a shot from the beginning he would not have bothered trying to get the TV back.

And for the record Sheldon never said in the Pilot that Penny was out of Leonard's league, he said she is from a different spicies, and that compared to the guy's he is a mackdaddy, but just the chances of a women like that at that point getting involved with Leonard was remote. He also said Penny never rejected him more that he never gave her the option. Penny never said Leonard diddn't trust her, in the heat of the moment was her position in the argument, Leonard trust's Penny, Penny has given no reason to Leonard at that point to not trust her, in all her past relationship's she never cheated the guy's cheated on her. The trust issues came from Penny not trusting Leonard enough to tell him an ex bf she had a thing with in the past is staying on her couch, this caused a rift as Leonard felt now they are in a relationship she should run thing's by him, seeing it should be an equal partnership. Like I said while Leonard has never said Penny is out of his league, you even said yourself that Sheldon elluded to the many differences between Leonard and Penny, so while Leonard has never said that Penny is out of his league, based on societies expectations and rule's it is almost an implied unspoken thing, based on Penny's external qualities and Leonard's.

 

And I disagree with the car scene, yes this is a reaction to Penny's recent behaviour, but this is just scratching the surface, it really revealed deeper insecurities, about the image of their relationship, the situation reinforced his insecurities he is in a relationship with a women perceived to be out of his league, a women who has had dated guy's who have better external qualities then Leonard. As for the comment about Penny's self control, Penny has had control, most of her relationship's in the first season were with guy's that were more her social equal, in all those relationships she was sober the entire relationships, and most of them were a physical relationship based on sex. Their have been time's before she was 21 where she revealed to lack self control, but most of her relationship's did not posses any of these trait's at all. TBH other then Raj which were unique circumstances with alcahol involved, I cannot remember a moment onscreen that implied she has self control at all, so that can not be a reason to justify why Leonard shouldent trust her, like I said their entire relationship in S3 Penny was completley committed to Leonard as was Leonard.

 

The situtation at that point Penny was almost settling for Leonard as in term's of he is not usually the type of guy she goes for, at that point was an example of the lack of trust and honesty that you are seeing a lot more now in S5-S7, Leonard's gripe was that Penny should of told her about the guy on her couch, their was no compromise from either Leonard or Penny. As for if Leonard thought he never had a shot he woulden't of bothered trying to get the tv back in the pilot, true but in the pilot he was the nerd she was the gorgeous girl next door, that was the premise. But as Season One progressed they developed a friendship, so I beleive even if Leonard gave up on pursuing Penny, Penny would of eventually seen Leonard the way she see's him now. I know you have maintained the three character's have changed very little, while the perphiral charactes have, have to disagree with that too. Go back to S3 when Leonard and Penny had that fight when they went out with Howard and Bernadette, and Penny told Leonard that a psychic told her she was going to get a big role in a movie, Leonard laughed and they ended up having a huge fight. Leonard after dinner tried to talk to her but she slammed the door in her face, latter on in the end of the ep, Leonard tried to mend thing's bu forcing a book prooving how all Psychics a frauds, Penny diddn't really go for that, thing's were resolved their but they never really talked about their issues honestly.

 

Hence why in the bowling scene they broke up, Leonard was just moving to fast in their relationship and Penny just wasen't ready for that. Fast forward 3 season's similar situation, Leonard and Penny on VD go out with Howard and Bernadette, Penny ruins the dinner because she see's an ex bf proposing to the women who stole him off her, after dinner Penny said night and went back in her apartment. Now if this was S3 Leonard woulden't of had the confidence to challenge Penny on why she acted the way she did, but the point is Leonard in S3 always felt insecure about their relationship, where as now they are more equals. This time Leonard went into Penny's apartment and challenged Penny on what happened, she revealed her fear of marrage, and they talked through their issues honestly. And I really think the beta version relationship in S5 taught them about compromise, so at the end of the VD ep last season, their relationship grew as a consequence. So while I agree the character's in terms of character development have not changed all that much, the relationship's between the character's have changed alot JMO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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And for the record Sheldon never said in the Pilot that Penny was out of Leonard's league, he said she is from a different spicies,

Yes exactly. Clearly he did not actually mean that literally. I took it as a humorous way to say the same thing.

 

 

I don't think you can justify the character's lack of maturity based on a paper that Penny did and cheated, for the record she diddn't cheat she got Bernadette and Amy to take it for her to proove a point to Leonard.

I used this example because it is irrefutable. She got friends to write her paper because she wanted to prove something to her boyfriend. That motivation is very childish. It is most definitely cheating.

 

 

And Leonard never wanted to help Penny she cheat, he actually showed up to her apartment with text book's,

He rewrote her term paper while she was sleeping and presented it to her in the morning. For an academic working at a University this is inexcusable. I chose this example because there is no grayness here. What he did was academically dishonest and reckless. If found out it could destroy his reputation and be career ending. I'd say he was lucky she did not want to use it. Amy and Bernadette not so lucky. The show is just a comedy but that was over the top. In any case Leonard should know better and it is a sign of extraordinary immaturity.

 

 

I don't think you can sum up the character development based on one episode and story arch, their are just too many variables to consider.

It is just an example. An absolutely irrefutable example. You and I can't agree on basic facts so we will hardy agree on broader points!

 

 

I don't think anyone can say that Penny S1 has not changed at all to S7 Penny, that is short sighted regardless of your opinion.

I keep saying the three main characters have changed very little. Every episode I have seen of S7 reaffirms my position. I have not said they have not changed at all.

 

 

Penny never said Leonard diddn't trust her, in the heat of the moment was her position in the argument,...

Actually it is exactly what she said!

 

"Penny: That isn’t even your problem, the problem is you don’t trust me!"

 

I had even quoted this already.

 

 

Penny has given no reason to Leonard at that point to not trust her, in all her past relationship's she never cheated the guy's cheated on her.

Yet she actually did say "...the problem is you don't trust me!"

The thing here is if we can't agree on what she said we can't really go on to discus the why.

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@djsurrey, I'm not academic but was not Penny just taking a class? Its not unreasonable that she get assistance with writing, as an adult learner getting back into things. I don't know if anyone could be charged with academic misconduct because we don't know enough about her program. Leonard was out of line for a lot of reasons, but Penny could be on a bridging program. I did a such a course once at a university that counted for nothing academically. I'd be surprised if all the stickler phds conspired on her behalf. I'm not too fussed, but it might be something of a calumny to represent this as absolute cheating unless we know.

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Looks like she was taking a course from a community college. I think you are correct in respect to we don't know how much discussion and help she would be permitted to get. Perhaps some discussion and would be permitted or even encouraged. Plagiarism is a line that can't be crossed. So I guess the question is what type of help she got. Looking at what Penny said one might think she simply discussed the subject with her friends.

 

from s6e6 http://bigbangtrans.wordpress.com/series-6-episode-06-the-extract-obliteration/

 

Penny: So, I know this goes without saying, but if either of you tell Leonard you helped me rewrite this paper, I will beat you both with a bag of oranges.

 

Looking at the lines from Bernadette it does not look so innocent.

 

 

Amy: Understood.

Bernadette: Got it.

Penny: Now, ladies, we got a B-minus on this paper. I think if we put our heads together, on the next one we could get an A.

Bernadette: Uh, but we got you a B-minus on purpose to make it believable.

Penny: Believable? You saying I’m not smart?

Bernadette: No, no!

Amy: You’re smart.

Penny: That’s better.

Amy: I feel like I’m in high school again.

Bernadette: Yeah, doing the prom queen’s homework so she’ll like us.

Amy: I know. It’s finally working.

 

So the line

  • "Bernadette: Uh, but we got you a B-minus on purpose to make it believable."

essentially says Bernadette and Amy were more in control of what was going into the paper than Penny was. If they had to make it believable they had to be cheating! From that we don't really need to know the specific rules for this class.

 

I think that is enough to show there was cheating on it's own. The later line "Yeah, doing the prom queen's homework so she'll like us." just adds more support.

 

Somewhat more speculative but after looking at  Bernadette's lines and then going back to Penny's "...I will beat you both with a bag of oranges." and Penny is looking like she momentarily reverted to her bully way of doing things from high school.

Edited by djsurrey

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Looks like she was taking a course from a community college. I think you are correct in respect to we don't know how much discussion and help she would be permitted to get. Perhaps some discussion and would be permitted or even encouraged. Plagiarism is a line that can't be crossed. So I guess the question is what type of help she got. Looking at what Penny said one might think she simply discussed the subject with her friends.

Looking at the lines from Bernadette it does not look so innocent.

So the line

  • "Bernadette: Uh, but we got you a B-minus on purpose to make it believable."
essentially says Bernadette and Amy were more in control of what was going into the paper than Penny was. If they had to make it believable they had to be cheating! From that we don't really need to know the specific rules for this class.

Well, I'll baulk at calling it cheating, maybe well-coached, instead. But regardless she didn't even come near approaching what modern cheats get up to with the internet and purchased essays. To counter this they have plagiarism software now which analyses for actual plagiarism, but in this case she would pass that, so far as we know. But it seems to be a one-off sin to give her confidence. I'm happier thinking that - like training wheels. The last paper she wrote got her a check plus. Lol.

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Well, I'll baulk at calling it cheating, maybe well-coached, instead. But regardless she didn't even come near approaching what modern cheats get up to with the internet and purchased essays. To counter this they have plagiarism software now which analyses for actual plagiarism, but in this case she would pass that, so far as we know. But it seems to be a one-off sin to give her confidence. I'm happier thinking that - like training wheels. The last paper she wrote got her a check plus. Lol.

One might have thought it was coaching up until we hear Bernadette say that she and Amy got her a B- to make it believable. They clearly had not discussed that with Penny when they were writing her paper for her. If they were just coaching they would not have had to concern themselves with making it believable. Nor would they had enough control to set the bar on the mark she would get.

This does not make Penny a bad person (apart from the comment about beating both Amy and Bernadette with a bag of oranges if either  tells Leonard). Instructors and Lab Instructors in my department always have to inform new first year students about the meaning of plagiarism. Apparently it is not taken so seriously in high school.

By the way software only detects if something is copied from works already published (including publishing on the Internet). It can not detect if a friend writes your paper.

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Circling back to say is the scene where Penny stands behind the couch and bemoans the absence of vodka not the worst lit scene in the show ever?She is standing in the dark.

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Circling back to say is the scene where Penny stands behind the couch and bemoans the absence of vodka not the worst lit scene in the show ever?She is standing in the dark.

I can't find the scene. Any other details or dialogue?

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I can't find the scene. Any other details or dialogue?

 

Here it is, it starts right away:

 

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You were talking about the lighting. Perhaps they were giving an effect to emphasize it was night?

 

I thought the exchange in the scene was well written and well acted.

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