Character Penny's Drinking Issues

[3ku11]

That's a legit opinion.  I don't mind shock.  What I mind comes from my feelings about the characters,  I knew what was going to happen in the season 4 finale before I saw it.  I looked up spoilers because I was interested in the Penny Leonard relationship.  Then when I saw it, what shocked me was that she said she wouldn't sleep with Raj and then a few hours later she's in bed with him.  Why?  The drinking.  You don't need to be an alcoholic to make bad choices while drinking.

 

I've watched it several times now and there is laughter and shock.  More laughter due to the fact that maybe most people don't feel about it the way I did.  I think you are defending her as not being slutty by saying she doesn't sleep with random guys because of low self esteem.  But, Penny has slept with random guys, mostly before she met Leonard.  Remember when she talked to him about her 36 hours after which she felt awful?  and I remember correctly, she did it because she felt bad about a break up.  I'll have to rewatch to be sure.  Do you also remember her telling Leonard about the guy named TJ who she never spoke a word to and never learned what TJ meant?  last there are the comments from Sheldon about random men going to and from her apartment.  He commented on it in episode 6.2.  Does that mean she was drunk with all of them?   No.

 

Now I don't want anyone to get the impression I don't like Penny.  I love Penny.  She's not perfect nor do I expect her to be.  That doesn't mean I don't feel bad when she makes bad choices that hurt other people.  Yes, fictional people, but I'd feel the same way in real life.  I look at her and I say if she hadn't gotten drunk then she wouldn't have hurt anyone.  Again, you don't have to be an alcoholic to make bad choices.

Well Penny is allowed to have past BF's and relationships, and she may by occasions mentioned guys she's been with, but that's more a side on or extension to the current conversation. And as for Sheldon well he thinks he knows everything, he calculated 30 guys, but based on the variables of her relationships that number is way too high, I'll say about 15. But like I said what's the big deal? She was young then she is gorgeous, and was really sociable, she was having fun at that point of her life, and most of the time the reason she dated all those certain type of guys, is because of her insecurties and the fact it limited the possiblity of an emotional attachement, drinking was just part of her social world then, and it was part of the people and peers she used to hang out with before she meet Leonard and Sheldon. She dated those guys early on in S1, because that was her type she was to scared to go for a guy not because of how many muscles they have haha, but more of what is inside and that they care for her. She even said this in S1 finalie, "For once I would like to go out with a guy who treat me nice, and actually care for me". Up to that point Leonard and Penny had developed a friendship, so the one of the big reasons why Lenny is so strong now is that depth that was built early on. And TBH most of the drinking that came later on was based on the circumstances, Leonard and Priya e.t.c. Hanging out with Bernadette and Amy, coming home one night and sleeping with Leonard drunk because of her lack of intolerance of dumb guys now. in a weird way it was kinda sweet that Penny blamed Leonard for all that lol. TBH tho Penny in general started drinking less by S2, when she started dating less since Leonard, and got immersed in the guys activities, she started to focus on her self like her bills, like in S2 when Sheldon lended her money e.t.c. Playing Paintball, helping Leonard out in his numerous problems. If were being honest the only reason Penny started drinking heaviliy post S3 is alot of reasons 1. Her break up with Leonard 2. Her dating life was non-active and 3. Her acting career was going no where, so she was most likely depressed. But even since the Closure EP in S6, Penny had an epiphany and realized she is passionate about Leonard and all her friends, that was the moment the drinking subdued, and any possiblity Penny's promiscurity or drinking habit's would arise are gone now, pretty much since S2 TBH.

[JonRS92]

Well Penny is allowed to have past BF's and relationships, and she may by occasions mentioned guys she's been with, but that's more a side on or extension to the current conversation. And as for Sheldon well he thinks he knows everything, he calculated 30 guys, but based on the variables of her relationships that number is way too high, I'll say about 15. But like I said what's the big deal? She was young then she is gorgeous, and was really sociable, she was having fun at that point of her life, and most of the time the reason she dated all those certain type of guys, is because of her insecurties and the fact it limited the possiblity of an emotional attachement, drinking was just part of her social world then, and it was part of the people and peers she used to hang out with before she meet Leonard and Sheldon. She dated those guys early on in S1, because that was her type she was to scared to go for a guy not because of how many muscles they have haha, but more of what is inside and that they care for her. She even said this in S1 finalie, "For once I would like to go out with a guy who treat me nice, and actually care for me". Up to that point Leonard and Penny had developed a friendship, so the one of the big reasons why Lenny is so strong now is that depth that was built early on. And TBH most of the drinking that came later on was based on the circumstances, Leonard and Priya e.t.c. Hanging out with Bernadette and Amy, coming home one night and sleeping with Leonard drunk because of her lack of intolerance of dumb guys now. in a weird way it was kinda sweet that Penny blamed Leonard for all that lol. TBH tho Penny in general started drinking less by S2, when she started dating less since Leonard, and got immersed in the guys activities, she started to focus on her self like her bills, like in S2 when Sheldon lended her money e.t.c. Playing Paintball, helping Leonard out in his numerous problems. If were being honest the only reason Penny started drinking heaviliy post S3 is alot of reasons 1. Her break up with Leonard 2. Her dating life was non-active and 3. Her acting career was going no where, so she was most likely depressed. But even since the Closure EP in S6, Penny had an epiphany and realized she is passionate about Leonard and all her friends, that was the moment the drinking subdued, and any possiblity Penny's promiscurity or drinking habit's would arise are gone now, pretty much since S2 TBH.

All good points.  I hope I am not coming across as being anti-Penny because she drinks or even anti-drinking.  All I ever meant to have come across was that Penny/Raj doesn't happen if she isn't drinking.  And let's be really honest, if Penny's drinking kicked into high gear because of her feeling down about losing Leonard...well that's how a lot of drinking problems start.  I would have hoped that her character would have understood (way before Raj) what happens to her when she gets that drunk.  She's talked about the regrets several times.  If I had been writing the scripts, I would have her hit her realization after sleeping with Leonard in season 3 after the break up and seeing what that did to him.  I would have been totally okay with her getting drunk in her sorrow during the Priya era if she'd learned from those past experiences and not put herself into the situation to make the same mistake again with Raj.  I mean we all know she didn't want to do that.  She should have also known it would happen as there was past precedent.  However, what is done is done and I really love that she has stopped now that she is with Leonard again and I think her recreational drinking now shows that she was never a full-blown alcoholic even if some of the reasons behind the drinking were similar.

[Tensor]

I do have some issues with your comments.  I am not sure where I am failing in my points here.  I have never been too concerned with numbers.

How about we use your exact quote:

 

Actually, if you are looking for it, from seasons 1-4 she gets drunk a lot.

If you are not concerned with numbers, then why did you say she was drunk a lot? Five times in five years in not a lot and less than many people I know.

And the second part of your quote:

 

And it isn't the fact that she gets drunk, it's that she always turned into a slut while drunk.

And she always turns into a slut? Can you define slut here? And always. That's why I would like to know how you define slut. Is an offer enough to be a slut, or ifshe stops, no matter who points it out, does that change things? And, always? If she was such a slut when drinking, why isn't Leonard's mother consider as a slut when drinking for wanting the bus boy, when Penny made no attempt to have sex with anyone? If she turn so slutty when drunk, why didn't find someone then?

 

The times you mentioned Penny being drunk are probably the correct number.  It does not matter for my point.  All that matters is this.  During each of those four times when the result of the drinking looked to lead or lead to sex, would Penny have made a different choice while sober?  I think it safe to say that she would have.

And, so? Everyone makes different choices when drunk. What is your point here? And, actually, my number is off, she was drunk two other times, but she made no attempt to make decision to have sex with anyone at those times.

 

Alcohol or no alcohol, Leonard makes all the same choices.

He does? Do you really think he would have charged into Penny's apartment, demanding to have sex with her, if he was sober in the season three finale?

And, we know he stopped, when he was sober, and she was drunk in "The Middle Earth Paradigm", but he made a different decision in the Maternal Capacitance. So that demonstrates that he does not make the same decisions when drunk concerning sex.

 

This same argument goes with my slutty comment.  Penny sleeps with guys she wouldn't have while sober.  Leonard does.  It isn't about the numbers, it is about semantics and reasons.  Nowhere am I saying that Penny is a slut.  She gets slutty when drunk.

Again, define slutty. And again, no Leonard doesn't. You mention five times. She stopped in three of those. Does it matter why. That's why you have to define your terms.

 

Now I am going to try and go from memory here but correct me if I am wrong.  We've seen all of the other characters outside of Leonard and Penny and Raj drunk no more than once.  Sheldon when Penny gave him the Long Island Iced Teas,

Sheldon's been shown drunk three times. Would Sheldon have played the keyboard at the Cheesecake factory if he had been sober? Would he have taken his pants off at the Award ceremony, if he had been sober? He was also drunk at Howard's bachelor party and in "The Engagement Reaction" he rinsed his mouth out with vodka, swallowed some, and told Leonard he loved him. Would he have told Leonard that, without swallowing alcohol? That's five times for Sheldon.

Amy was shown as drunk, after eating Ice cream with Kaluha, and she then started mouthing off to Priya, something she didn't do any other time. She was drunk when Sheldon accompanied the girls out and danced with them. While at the club, she kissed Penny and she was offering herself to Sheldon. After getting home, she kissed him. Then there was the time Bernadette and Penny left her out of going to look at bridesmaid's dresses. She got drunk and wanted Sheldon to take her to the motel across the street. So, are you going to say Amy turns slutty when she gets drunk?

 

Bernadette and Howard I never remember being drunk.  Raj is drunk way more than Penny, but he doesn't make different choices while drunk.

I'll agree with you here.

 

Leonard's been drunk maybe three times that I remember and twice with Penny.  And again, he makes the same choices sober.

And again, no he doesn't. If he did, he wouldn't have stopped the first season. No one makes the same choices sober. And there is two other times Penny was drunk, neither time did she run off to find someone to sleep with.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Tensor

[3ku11]

Actually I remember in S2 when Penny went with Raj to his Magazine Launch, and he was really drunk and making passes at her all night lol, she kept turning him down. I'm aware the argument is when Penny gets drunk she can be a slut which I completely disagree with, depends on how you define being a slut. Penny sleeping with Leonard after a break up and being really drunk, and coming home to get it out of her system IMO does not constitute a slut from anyone's vantage point at all. Just as much as emotinally not being in a great state of mind, and drinking way too much and blacking out and having no recollection, and waking up not realizing who is their and she was shocked to find it is Raj, big drunken mistake but does not make her a slut. I mean if she got drunk and picked up some random guy at a bar, and did that constantly sure but she doesen't do that, in the context of her relationships up to Leonard she was very sexually active in those part relationships, but those were with one select guy not various. And you have to look at her relationship with her father to understand her choice in men, or he drinking habit which I think has always been non-existent, watched the show since the pilot never saw a drinking problem, sure it was amped up in S4 but that's only because the writers were living vicarousley through Penny, and making it clear she was depressed, she's only human. The same way Leonard is submissive in his behvaviour and has always seeked the approval of women, due to how cold and distant his Mother was, because of this so was his Father. Penny's father always referred to Penny as his little "slugger", that obviousley has planted a deep seeded psychological scar in Penny's life, so she feels inadequate in some aspects in her life who doesen't, Leonard and the guys feel inadequate completely when it comes to relationships, Lenny The Early Years as I like to put it diddn't have a clue when he was first dating Penny, but after Priya it gave him the much needed confidence to be ready for Penny.  And Penny growing too started to realize what a great guy Leonard was, and since mid way S5 I cannot recall Penny drinking severly more out of lesuire, but not as a means for escape from any of her issues like she was in S4. Besides it's not like in S4 she would have a side of vodka with her cereal lol, when she went out with the girls she would get drunk it happend circumstancially IMO. But as this has no relevance to Penny in S7, just as Howard being a creepy flirt with Penny haha has no relevance, I think it is safe to say Penny's doing alright

[JonRS92]

How about we use your exact quote:

If you are not concerned with numbers, then why did you say she was drunk a lot? Five times in five years in not a lot and less than many people I know.

And the second part of your quote:

And she always turns into a slut? Can you define slut here? And always. That's why I would like to know how you define slut. Is an offer enough to be a slut, or ifshe stops, no matter who points it out, does that change things? And, always? If she was such a slut when drinking, why isn't Leonard's mother consider as a slut when drinking for wanting the bus boy, when Penny made no attempt to have sex with anyone? If she turn so slutty when drunk, why didn't find someone then?

And, so? Everyone makes different choices when drunk. What is your point here? And, actually, my number is off, she was drunk two other times, but she made no attempt to make decision to have sex with anyone at those times.

He does? Do you really think he would have charged into Penny's apartment, demanding to have sex with her, if he was sober in the season three finale?

And, we know he stopped, when he was sober, and she was drunk in "The Middle Earth Paradigm", but he made a different decision in the Maternal Capacitance. So that demonstrates that he does not make the same decisions when drunk concerning sex.

Again, define slutty. And again, no Leonard doesn't. You mention five times. She stopped in three of those. Does it matter why. That's why you have to define your terms.

Sheldon's been shown drunk three times. Would Sheldon have played the keyboard at the Cheesecake factory if he had been sober? Would he have taken his pants off at the Award ceremony, if he had been sober? He was also drunk at Howard's bachelor party and in "The Engagement Reaction" he rinsed his mouth out with vodka, swallowed some, and told Leonard he loved him. Would he have told Leonard that, without swallowing alcohol? That's five times for Sheldon.

Amy was shown as drunk, after eating Ice cream with Kaluha, and she then started mouthing off to Priya, something she didn't do any other time. She was drunk when Sheldon accompanied the girls out and danced with them. While at the club, she kissed Penny and she was offering herself to Sheldon. After getting home, she kissed him. Then there was the time Bernadette and Penny left her out of going to look at bridesmaid's dresses. She got drunk and wanted Sheldon to take her to the motel across the street. So, are you going to say Amy turns slutty when she gets drunk?

I'll agree with you here.

And again, no he doesn't. If he did, he wouldn't have stopped the first season. No one makes the same choices sober. And there is two other times Penny was drunk, neither time did she run off to find someone to sleep with.

I appreciate your argument but I don't get how you don't think that Leonard would want to sleep with Penny whether he is drunk or sober. He wanted to sleep with her in season 1 but as you said he stopped her. It doesnt change that he wanted to. Do you think Penny would have stopped if Leonard had not? And do you really think Penny wanted him at that point in their relationship if she had been sober? Yes in season 2 both got drunk and Leonard made a different choice but only because he had dated Penny and knew there was a possibility that Penny really did want to sleep with him regardless. I still don't think Penny makes the choice to sleep with him all things being equal but she is sober. The season 3 incident in more of the same except this time Penny admits it was a Mistake the next day. Leonard wants to sleep with Penny all those times a d would still want to drunk or sober. Penny wouldnt have IMO. And finally there is the case of Raj. I do t think you can argue that one.

So slutty for me is the condition where a person will have sex even when they know they shouldn't. Yes the offer counts because Penny has intended to follow through in those incidents. Penny is not slutty sober but becomes that way when she drinks. Now I am not saying that Penny becomes slutty every single time she drinks. You have me quoted as saying that but my point was always in those incidents I mentioned. The four of them. I am not sure where you are getting five. And I can't speak for you but making 4 sexual mistakes in 4 years does seem like a lot to me. And when you are talking about a 24 episode tv season that number is exaggerated.

I think you believe I am trashing Penny at the expense of Leonard and that is not my intention.

Thank you for pointing out my errors in the others drunk episodes. As for Amy I don't think she's slutty. I think she gets sexually uninhibited and let's be honest she can be that way sober too. She has e en made moves on Penny. I don't see the alcohol making her do things with people she wouldn't want to do them with anyway while

Sober.

[Guitars1964]

Without disputing any of the comments about Penny's drinking, or more accurately, that she wasn't shown as drinking that much, some may have the impression that she has, because of the times when Penny herself alluded to it.  One of the later episodes in S6 (just watched it today but can't remember which one) she makes mention of some past indiscretions, included, if I recall, waking up in bed with a 34 year old named Luther.  When she and the girls were planning to go to Las Vegas and they couldn't, I think she made some comment that she'd rather be  drunk and throwing up in the shrimp bowl at one of the casinos, or something similar.  As I look back, I agree that there haven't been that many on screen examples, but it does seem, by Penny's own admission, that the drinking too much and/or sleeping with a large number of guys whom she barely knew was fairly common.  I don't know if that's considered a normal right of passage these days.  Seems a little sad if it is, but then I'm an old guy.

 

In my view, the writers, in their pursuit of the laugh, have painted Penny as having more than her share of heavy drinking and "hooking up" sex with anonymous guys.  I mean, come on, she barely knew David Underhill and she was ready to let him take nude photos of her.  Look, I love her, but I can't overlook her own comments about her past "social behavior."  JMO.

[JonRS92]

Actually I remember in S2 when Penny went with Raj to his Magazine Launch, and he was really drunk and making passes at her all night lol, she kept turning him down. I'm aware the argument is when Penny gets drunk she can be a slut which I completely disagree with, depends on how you define being a slut. Penny sleeping with Leonard after a break up and being really drunk, and coming home to get it out of her system IMO does not constitute a slut from anyone's vantage point at all. Just as much as emotinally not being in a great state of mind, and drinking way too much and blacking out and having no recollection, and waking up not realizing who is their and she was shocked to find it is Raj, big drunken mistake but does not make her a slut. I mean if she got drunk and picked up some random guy at a bar, and did that constantly sure but she doesen't do that, in the context of her relationships up to Leonard she was very sexually active in those part relationships, but those were with one select guy not various. And you have to look at her relationship with her father to understand her choice in men, or he drinking habit which I think has always been non-existent, watched the show since the pilot never saw a drinking problem, sure it was amped up in S4 but that's only because the writers were living vicarousley through Penny, and making it clear she was depressed, she's only human. The same way Leonard is submissive in his behvaviour and has always seeked the approval of women, due to how cold and distant his Mother was, because of this so was his Father. Penny's father always referred to Penny as his little "slugger", that obviousley has planted a deep seeded psychological scar in Penny's life, so she feels inadequate in some aspects in her life who doesen't, Leonard and the guys feel inadequate completely when it comes to relationships, Lenny The Early Years as I like to put it diddn't have a clue when he was first dating Penny, but after Priya it gave him the much needed confidence to be ready for Penny. And Penny growing too started to realize what a great guy Leonard was, and since mid way S5 I cannot recall Penny drinking severly more out of lesuire, but not as a means for escape from any of her issues like she was in S4. Besides it's not like in S4 she would have a side of vodka with her cereal lol, when she went out with the girls she would get drunk it happend circumstancially IMO. But as this has no relevance to Penny in S7, just as Howard being a creepy flirt with Penny haha has no relevance, I think it is safe to say Penny's doing alright

I only wanted to address one thing you said because it struck me as somewhat shocking. You really believe that getting drunk and sleeping with an ex just to get it out of your system is not slutty? You don't think getting so drunk you have memory loss and waking up with a guy you just told a few hours earlier that you won't sleep with is not a little slutty? I know you are just concentrating on Leonard but shes admitted to other incidents with guys who meant nothing to her. The bottom line is we dont really know what shes doing offscreen. We just may have two completely different lifestyles but where I grew up girls who did these things were not highly regarded. Everything you said about season 5 and beyond I agree with though.

[3ku11]

I appreciate your argument but I don't get how you don't think that Leonard would want to sleep with Penny whether he is drunk or sober. He wanted to sleep with her in season 1 but as you said he stopped her. It doesnt change that he wanted to. Do you think Penny would have stopped if Leonard had not? And do you really think Penny wanted him at that point in their relationship if she had been sober? Yes in season 2 both got drunk and Leonard made a different choice but only because he had dated Penny and knew there was a possibility that Penny really did want to sleep with him regardless. I still don't think Penny makes the choice to sleep with him all things being equal but she is sober. The season 3 incident in more of the same except this time Penny admits it was a Mistake the next day. Leonard wants to sleep with Penny all those times a d would still want to drunk or sober. Penny wouldnt have IMO. And finally there is the case of Raj. I do t think you can argue that one.

So slutty for me is the condition where a person will have sex even when they know they shouldn't. Yes the offer counts because Penny has intended to follow through in those incidents. Penny is not slutty sober but becomes that way when she drinks. Now I am not saying that Penny becomes slutty every single time she drinks. You have me quoted as saying that but my point was always in those incidents I mentioned. The four of them. I am not sure where you are getting five. And I can't speak for you but making 4 sexual mistakes in 4 years does seem like a lot to me. And when you are talking about a 24 episode tv season that number is exaggerated.

I think you believe I am trashing Penny at the expense of Leonard and that is not my intention.

Thank you for pointing out my errors in the others drunk episodes. As for Amy I don't think she's slutty. I think she gets sexually uninhibited and let's be honest she can be that way sober too. She has e en made moves on Penny. I don't see the alcohol making her do things with people she wouldn't want to do them with anyway while

Sober.

I think the point trying to be made here is the context of Penny's drinking. I don't care if she was drunk with Leonard or Raj, that to me does not make her a slut, if she went to a random bar and picked up a random guy sure, but sleeping with Leonard when dated a lot, and Raj once to me = Poor lack of judgement but not a slut JMO.

I only wanted to address one thing you said because it struck me as somewhat shocking. You really believe that getting drunk and sleeping with an ex just to get it out of your system is not slutty? You don't think getting so drunk you have memory loss and waking up with a guy you just told a few hours earlier that you won't sleep with is not a little slutty? I know you are just concentrating on Leonard but shes admitted to other incidents with guys who meant nothing to her. The bottom line is we dont really know what shes doing offscreen. We just may have two completely different lifestyles but where I grew up girls who did these things were not highly regarded. Everything you said about season 5 and beyond I agree with though.

Actually I was refering to S2 at Raj's Magazine Launch when he was drunk and making passes at her, not when they slept together in S4.

[JonRS92]

Without disputing any of the comments about Penny's drinking, or more accurately, that she wasn't shown as drinking that much, some may have the impression that she has, because of the times when Penny herself alluded to it. One of the later episodes in S6 (just watched it today but can't remember which one) she makes mention of some past indiscretions, included, if I recall, waking up in bed with a 34 year old named Luther. When she and the girls were planning to go to Las Vegas and they couldn't, I think she made some comment that she'd rather be drunk and throwing up in the shrimp bowl at one of the casinos, or something similar. As I look back, I agree that there haven't been that many on screen examples, but it does seem, by Penny's own admission, that the drinking too much and/or sleeping with a large number of guys whom she barely knew was fairly common. I don't know if that's considered a normal right of passage these days. Seems a little sad if it is, but then I'm an old guy.

In my view, the writers, in their pursuit of the laugh, have painted Penny as having more than her share of heavy drinking and "hooking up" sex with anonymous guys. I mean, come on, she barely knew David Underhill and she was ready to let him take nude photos of her. Look, I love her, but I can't overlook her own comments about her past "social behavior." JMO.

Very good points. Some may want to act like they are not part of her character because they aren't seen on screen or maybe not draw the connections between those incidents to her behavior with Leonard and Raj. It may be because we want the Penny Leonard relationship to be pure. It isn't. It may be that younger people today just don't have a problem with meaningless sex. Maybe slutty will be a forgotten word in a few more years.

[3ku11]

Very good points. Some may want to act like they are not part of her character because they aren't seen on screen or maybe not draw the connections between those incidents to her behavior with Leonard and Raj. It may be because we want the Penny Leonard relationship to be pure. It isn't. It may be that younger people today just don't have a problem with meaningless sex. Maybe slutty will be a forgotten word in a few more years.

Okay Penny is not a slut promiscious sure but not a slut, I never tried to excuse Penny's sleeping with guys due to alcahol, just saying their are reasons and factors behind it, and more due to a poor lack of judgement then her just being slutty. At the end of the day it's Penny's life she is allowed to have a love life, and I don't think anyone has ever professed Lenny to be pure in anyway, I mean lets be honest we have seen Leonard do just as much bad things as Penny, I mean I think Leonard sleeping with that professor chick right after they broke up sober is much worser then anything Penny may or may not have done on screen or offscreen in her past, or presently or in the future. Penny has always made no reservations for her past actions with guys, most times she is over exagerrating, others she is feeling remorse for her past actions, but she has matured since and most of the time brings it up because she is not that person anymore and has changed, is Leonard still dating Joyce Kim lol?. Penny has always been free spirited so it is not a surprise to me she has hooked up with random guys, come on she was young and having fun what is wrong with that, she's not a nun it's in her personality, but ever since meeting Leonard and TBH since S2, Penny has matured alot and she has always been a work in progress, so I don't see why people have to run her down for her shortcomings, in S6 like you said it's not an issue anymore. TBH by the end of the S1 you started too see a change in Penny she was sick of the meaningless casual flings with guy who diddn't care about her, her ex bf even blogged about their sex life, she wanted a guy who cares about her hence Leonard. The only reason she started to drink alot more because she was depressed with her life, you even saw that starting to occur in S2 The Barbarian Sublimation Penny's acting career was going no where, haden't had audition in 2 years up to that point, Penny even said to Sheldon that she haden't had sex in 6 months, so that gives you an idea on her lack of dating. So this why I disagree she slept with a lot of guys, Penny most likely because of her upbringing and background being from Nebraska, and being gorgeous and an aspiring actress was attracted to the type of guy who was rich, good looking, and was charming. But by S2 she wanted change she was sick of that type, she wanted to date someone who genuienly cared for her, enter Leonard. While I am no way excusing Penny for her past discrection's, but at the same time it is alot more complicated then Penny make's bad decisions when alcahol is involved, because TBH everyone does.

Edited September 17, 2013 by 3ku11

[Nogravitasatall]

Hey, has everyone forgotten the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and last decade. And that's just my lifetime. Gosh.

[JonRS92]

I think the point trying to be made here is the context of Penny's drinking. I don't care if she was drunk with Leonard or Raj, that to me does not make her a slut, if she went to a random bar and picked up a random guy sure, but sleeping with Leonard when dated a lot, and Raj once to me = Poor lack of judgement but not a slut JMO.

This is really interesting and I think the focus of our disagreement. Why is it different if the guy is a stranger rather than a friend? The sex is still almost meaningless. I'd argue that her having sex with Leonard after breaking up with him was worse because it hurt him later. The same with Raj. That hurt both Leonard and Raj though I could not care less of Raj gets hurt. What's worse is that she knows how she gets and still went out and did it. I'll give you that she's not like that anymore a d that's great .

Okay Penny is not a slut promiscious sure but not a slut, I never tried to excuse Penny's sleeping with guys due to alcahol, just saying their are reasons and factors behind it, and more due to a poor lack of judgement then her just being slutty. At the end of the day it's Penny's life she is allowed to have a love life, and I don't think anyone has ever professed Lenny to be pure in anyway, I mean lets be honest we have seen Leonard do just as much bad things as Penny, I mean I think Leonard sleeping with that professor chick right after they broke up sober is much worser then anything Penny may or may not have done on screen or offscreen in her past, or presently or in the future. Penny has always made no reservations for her past actions with guys, most times she is over exagerrating, others she is feeling remorse for her past actions. Penny has always been free spirited so it is not a surprise to me she has hooked up with random guys, come on she was young and having fun what is wrong with that, she's not a nun it's in her personality, but ever since meeting Leonard and TBH since S2, Penny has matured alot and she has always been a work in progress, so I don't see why people have to run her down for her shortcomings, in S6 like you said it's not an issue anymore.

We are really having an argument of semantics here. I've said that I don't believe Penny is a slut. She's not. That's clear as day. We both agree that she makes bad choices when drunk. Where we seem to differ is that label some of her drunk behavior as slutty while you say promiscuous. I really do believe that our bedrock point is the same we're just describing it differently.

[Tensor]

I appreciate your argument but I don't get how you don't think that Leonard would want to sleep with Penny whether he is drunk or sober. He wanted to sleep with her in season 1 but as you said he stopped her. It doesnt change that he wanted to.

If he wanted to, then why did he stop? You can't have it both ways. He either wanted to, and stopped becuase he was sober, but would have continued if he was drunk. Or, he didn't want to.

 

Do you think Penny would have stopped if Leonard had not?

Do you really think that if Leonard had been drunk during Middle Earth, he would have stopped?

 

And do you really think Penny wanted him at that point in their relationship if she had been sober?

Why not? Why was Penny so happy when she found out that Leonard had broken up with Leslie, in The Hamburger Postulate the week before? Because she can now have sex with him,perhaps?

 

Yes in season 2 both got drunk and Leonard made a different choice but only because he had dated Penny and knew there was a possibility that Penny really did want to sleep with him regardless.

How do you know this? How does one date, that went terrible, equate to Leonard knowing Penny want's to sleep with him? As far as Penny wanting to sleep with him, actually yes, I think Penny did, at that point. If her inhibitory control was so bad, she would sleep with anyone, anytime she is drunk. That doesn't happen. Depressed inhibitory control, via alcohol, will cause someone to do what they want, with someone they want to do it with. Not necessarily go out and do things with anyone.

 

I still don't think Penny makes the choice to sleep with him all things being equal but she is sober. The season 3 incident in more of the same except this time Penny admits it was a Mistake the next day. Leonard wants to sleep with Penny all those times a d would still want to drunk or sober.

I thought we were talking about making a different decision about sex if someone is drunk? Leonard did.

 

Penny wouldnt have IMO. And finally there is the case of Raj. I do t think you can argue that one.

Actually, you can make the argument that it wasn't a case of making a decision. The fact that she didn't remember, is very likely because she was simply too drunk to know what she was doing. (I want to point out that I am not condoning drinking to the excess demonstrated in this episode, nor does drinking to the point not remembering absolve her of the responsibility. I'm just pointing out the difference of making a decision and not being able to make a decision.)

 

So slutty for me is the condition where a person will have sex even when they know they shouldn't.

The problem with all this is that your definition of slutty isn't my definition of slutty and isn't the same as that person over there in the corner or that one over there by the door. You're trying to form an absolute opinion, based on relative definitions. And using your definition, don't you really think that Leonard, sober, would have known he shouldn't go to Penny's to have sex after she rejected him in the stairwell? Remember, your definition doesn't include whether or not they want to, just that they know they shouldn't. You're using two different definitions and choosing the one that fits what you want it to fit.

Hmmmmm, it's cut my reply in half. working on it.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Tensor

[Tensor]

I only wanted to address one thing you said because it struck me as somewhat shocking. You really believe that getting drunk and sleeping with an ex just to get it out of your system is not slutty?

Depends on where you live. Nebraska, probably. Southern California, nope. Larger cities in Wisconsin in the late 60s early 70s, nope. And that is my major problem with your claim. You are trying to force your standards onto Penny, when your standards don't necessarily apply to Penny. And if you standards apply to Penny, they have to apply to everyone else.

 

I know you are just concentrating on Leonard but shes admitted to other incidents with guys who meant nothing to her.

When were those episodes? In the very first episode, she had just got out of a four year relationship, with Kurt, she was 21 in the first episode. So she was with Kurt for four years, Leonard for most of season three. And didn't have sex for six months prior to the Barbarian simulation. So exactly when was she supposed to have had all these relationships? Squeezed into Season 2?

 

The bottom line is we dont really know what shes doing offscreen. We just may have two completely different lifestyles but where I grew up girls who did these things were not highly regarded. Everything you said about season 5 and beyond I agree with though.

If you are talking about Penny in Nebraska, I'd agree with you. But you are specifically talking about starting with season 1 and your four instances are nothing, when and where I grew up.And I don't know why you have a different standard for Penny and not Leonard.

[Tensor]

Without disputing any of the comments about Penny's drinking, or more accurately, that she wasn't shown as drinking that much, some may have the impression that she has, because of the times when Penny herself alluded to it.  One of the later episodes in S6 (just watched it today but can't remember which one) she makes mention of some past indiscretions, included, if I recall, waking up in bed with a 34 year old named Luther.

I think we have to separate what happened in Nebraska and what has gone on in Pasadena, there is a difference.  

 

When she and the girls were planning to go to Las Vegas and they couldn't, I think she made some comment that she'd rather be  drunk and throwing up in the shrimp bowl at one of the casinos, or something similar.

Well, they did want her to play D & D, that could have been a reaction to that.

 

As I look back, I agree that there haven't been that many on screen examples, but it does seem, by Penny's own admission, that the drinking too much and/or sleeping with a large number of guys whom she barely knew was fairly common.  I don't know if that's considered a normal right of passage these days.  Seems a little sad if it is, but then I'm an old guy.

I'm an old guy and it was pretty common back in the 60s, 70s and 80s. As far as on screen examples, that's what we have to go by. Remember how Penny was celibate the entire season four? Or when she was sleeping with four guys a night during season two? That's why it's tough to try to claim things that when, without some kind of actual reference. The examples she gave in season six seem to have been from her time in Nebraska.

If she wanted to hook up with anyone, anytime she wasn't dating anyone, who cares? I find it difficult to understand why a healthy woman, who wants to have sex, can't have sex, without being labeled a slut, or slutty or is thought of as some sort of aberration. Why don't we just pull out the red A for everyone or maybe we should go back to stoning.

 

In my view, the writers, in their pursuit of the laugh, have painted Penny as having more than her share of heavy drinking and "hooking up" sex with anonymous guys.  I mean, come on, she barely knew David Underhill and she was ready to let him take nude photos of her.  Look, I love her, but I can't overlook her own comments about her past "social behavior."  JMO.

Well, David Underhill barely knew her. Why is he taking nude photos of her, not to mention he was married. Why is Penny getting the blame for this. As far as hooking up, why isn't Leonard knocked for asking Howard to take him to a bar, so he could pick up women. Why is that behavior OK, but Penny wanting to do it, somehow wrong?

[3ku11]

Depends on where you live. Nebraska, probably. Southern California, nope. Larger cities in Wisconsin in the late 60s early 70s, nope. And that is my major problem with your claim. You are trying to force your standards onto Penny, when your standards don't necessarily apply to Penny. And if you standards apply to Penny, they have to apply to everyone else.

 

When were those episodes? In the very first episode, she had just got out of a four year relationship, with Kurt, she was 21 in the first episode. So she was with Kurt for four years, Leonard for most of season three. And didn't have sex for six months prior to the Barbarian simulation. So exactly when was she supposed to have had all these relationships? Squeezed into Season 2?

 

If you are talking about Penny in Nebraska, I'd agree with you. But you are specifically talking about starting with season 1 and your four instances are nothing, when and where I grew up.And I don't know why you have a different standard for Penny and not Leonard.

Most of Penny indiscretions that she is referring to like all the guys she has been with at bars or drunkely slept with, were prior to S1 clearly. As in The Barbarian Sublimation Penny confided to Sheldon well more in her big long rant that she haden't had sex in 6 months, Leonard was very happy lol. So while I agree Penny may come across as slutty in terms of her lack of judgement and depth perception at times, it depends on your standards and what kinda of person you are. Like above said Penny from nebraska, is different then being say from califonia, as up to then all those things happened prior to meeting Leonard. In terms of the cannon relationships in the show, Penny was revealed to have 4 relationships in the first season, since Season 2 and dating Leonard, every guy Penny dated she compared to Leonard. Other then Leonard and drunken nights with Leonard, and poor lack of judgement with Raj due to emotionaly being in a very dark place. I so see no evidence to suggest she comes across as slutty when she get's drunk, she's socialising before drinking becomes an issue anyway, remember in S5 the girls were hanging out and Penny was nearly falling asleep playing Twister lol, and I think Bernadette was like Penny were out of wine and she woke up haha. So I get this whole notion that Penny drinks too much, but it could just be as simple as Penny likes wine, it is part of her personality, she is a very social person. Regardless of people's definitions and standards when it comes to drinking and meaningless sex, I think we can all agree her drinking was never to the point where it was part of her entire identity, just amped up by the writers alot more in S4 as she was in a dark place, but since reconciling with Leonard it has been more refined to specific occasions, now Penny has drunk before so has Leonard so has most of the characters in the show, now that's established back to Lenny feels

[Disgusted]

 And if you standards apply to Penny, they have to apply to everyone else.

 

 

 

The root of the problem is that there is a large group of people that think no standards should apply to anyone. There is no such thing as "wrong" behavior. Any behavior can be rationalized away depending on the "situation". Usually so someone can feel better about themselves. 

 

I actually had someone argue that Penny knows how she is when she is drunk, so Raj wasn't really taking advantage of her because he had her tacit permission to have sex, even though she was so blasted she couldn't remember it.

 

Thats not OK in my world. 

 

There's a saying "A fool repeats mistakes, intelligence learns from mistakes, wisdom learns from the mistakes of others."

 

Standards are nothing more than lessons learned from the mistakes of others, codified for the convenience of the wise. 

 

Let the name calling begin

[Tensor]

The root of the problem is that there is a large group of people that think no standards should apply to anyone. There is no such thing as "wrong" behavior. Any behavior can be rationalized away depending on the "situation". Usually so someone can feel better about themselves.

 I actually had someone argue that Penny knows how she is when she is drunk, so Raj wasn't really taking advantage of her because he had her tacit permission to have sex, even though she was so blasted she couldn't remember it.

 

Thats not OK in my world.

Mine either. I just don't get how a woman who sleeps with five guys over five years has slutty behavior, but a guy who would sleep with 10 women in a month would be something to look up to.

 

There's a saying "A fool repeats mistakes, intelligence learns from mistakes, wisdom learns from the mistakes of others."

I haven't heard that one, but I like it.

 

Standards are nothing more than lessons learned from the mistakes of others, codified for the convenience of the wise. 

 

Let the name calling begin

Ok, tuls.

[Nogravitasatall]

I have problems with anyone calling out anyone for having as little sex as Penny has had. Since the invention of reliable contraception, birth control and the equality of women before the law, standards have changed. Women used need be chaste because sex was a risky proposition. 100 years ago sex was a bit like russian roulette, and if you were capable of child birth and didn't die the first time you likely had twelve kids to work on the farm and keep you in your old age. Many of them would die anyway. That and inherited property laws got us to where we are now. Judging Penny is almost a medieval exercise, as consequences today are very different to those of the past.

Generally Penny was a consenting adult and sometimes she drank too much. Like many. Gosh. NOW she is happy. Yay.

My naive view.

[Chiara]

I have problems with anyone calling out anyone for having as little sex as Penny has had. 

To further the point, I have problems calling out anyone for having as much sex as they want with fellow single consenting adults. As far as I am concerned, Penny could have had sex with the entire Caltech faculty (Mrs. Davis included) and I would still struggle to give a flying toss. As long as everyone gives their enthusiastic consent, it is none of my business. Both in real life and in fiction. 

[funbus]

I don't think she has a drink problem at all, she's no different than most girls of her age that cant go out and enjoy themselves without having a few to many, you see it alot here in the UK and you also see it with all these so called party girls like Paris Hilton in Hollywood and places like that, every time you see a picture of them, they're coming out a party hammered.

[Disgusted]

Ok, tuls.

 

 

 

Hmm, I like Stan............

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOMhN-hfMtY

[JonRS92]

If he wanted to, then why did he stop? You can't have it both ways. He either wanted to, and stopped becuase he was sober, but would have continued if he was drunk. Or, he didn't want to.

 

Do you really think that if Leonard had been drunk during Middle Earth, he would have stopped?

 

Why not? Why was Penny so happy when she found out that Leonard had broken up with Leslie, in The Hamburger Postulate the week before? Because she can now have sex with him,perhaps?

 

How do you know this? How does one date, that went terrible, equate to Leonard knowing Penny want's to sleep with him? As far as Penny wanting to sleep with him, actually yes, I think Penny did, at that point. If her inhibitory control was so bad, she would sleep with anyone, anytime she is drunk. That doesn't happen. Depressed inhibitory control, via alcohol, will cause someone to do what they want, with someone they want to do it with. Not necessarily go out and do things with anyone.

 

I thought we were talking about making a different decision about sex if someone is drunk? Leonard did.

 

Actually, you can make the argument that it wasn't a case of making a decision. The fact that she didn't remember, is very likely because she was simply too drunk to know what she was doing. (I want to point out that I am not condoning drinking to the excess demonstrated in this episode, nor does drinking to the point not remembering absolve her of the responsibility. I'm just pointing out the difference of making a decision and not being able to make a decision.)

 

The problem with all this is that your definition of slutty isn't my definition of slutty and isn't the same as that person over there in the corner or that one over there by the door. You're trying to form an absolute opinion, based on relative definitions. And using your definition, don't you really think that Leonard, sober, would have known he shouldn't go to Penny's to have sex after she rejected him in the stairwell? Remember, your definition doesn't include whether or not they want to, just that they know they shouldn't. You're using two different definitions and choosing the one that fits what you want it to fit.

Hmmmmm, it's cut my reply in half. working on it.

Going to try and answer these by paragraph as I don't know how to split up the quotes like you did.

 

1 and 2. I will admit that I can't say what Leonard would have done if drunk in that first Halloween episode.  What I do feel confident in saying is that he wanted to sleep with her but because he was not drunk he was able to see what was happening and nudge Penny to reconsider.  However, the fact that what he wanted to do would not have changed, I do not believe, if he had been drunk is the main point I want to make here.  Of the 4 times I mentioned where Penny is drunk and about to engage in sex I think it pretty safe to say that her desires would be different if sober.

 

3. Actually, this can be answered somewhat using your own argument that I happen to agree with.  A sober Penny is not slutty.  I argue that even though she was interested in Leonard at that point, the sober Penny was not ready for sex.  For proof I would ask why Penny never made a sexual move on Leonard at any time while sober for the first two seasons?

 

4. If I remember correctly it was not that date went poorly, but that Penny felt that Leonard was too smart for her.  They might have started dating again right then if Leonard had not inadvertently insulted her.  And, no, I still don't think that a sober Penny was ready for sex with Leonard at that point.  I think even then, deep down, she knew that a relationship with Leonard was different than anything she had been in before.  Remember, before the first date she talked to Sheldon about this and even stated that Leonard was not one to look for a hook-up, but a relationship.  And I do think it has been shown that her character has the propensity to sleep with random men just for sex we just rarely if ever see it on screen.

 

5. Nothing to say on that.

 

6. I would say that Penny's mistake with Raj was her worst one because you know she had no feelings for Raj.  Even half drunk she said she would not sleep with him even though for some weird reason known only to the writers she found him attractive enough to sleep with in her half drunk state.  I agree with everything you said about not being able to being able to make a decision and how that doesn't absolve responsibility.  That you see this makes me wonder how you can seemingly make the argument that she doesn't have a problem with sex while drunk.  Call it slutty as I do or any other number of definitions.  That's just semantics at this point.  What matters is the poor decision-making that comes out sometimes when Penny is really drunk.  and if some of those poor decisions crossed into other mistakes like driving or embarrassing activities then I might agree with you more, but that's not the case.  When we see or hear about Penny making mistakes while drunk, it is about sex.  By the time we get to Raj, I argue that she's done it or would have done it three other times on screen.  The last time, in Season 3 with Leonard, she regretted it and knew how much it hurt him.  So I say that she does know how she gets when she is drunk.  If she wanted it to stop then why didn't she stop it then?  There are two possibilities as I see it.  Penny knowingly put herself into a situation that she knew she could screw up.  She could have left after Sheldon went to sleep and not left herself alone with Raj.  She was still coherent enough, I think, at that point to leave.  She could have continued to get blasted in her apartment with no chance of making a sexual mistake.  Her actions here show a problem while drinking.  Or the writers made a huge mistake for the sake of laughs.  If you read my original reply to this thread, the latter is what I believe happened.  I don't think the writers saw that the Penny character could be seen to have either an alcohol or a promiscuity problem.  To be fair, I put a huge amount of blame on Raj because that guy doesn't care who he hurts or takes advantage of as long as he gets what he wants.  I am shocked the writers had Penny forgive him unless they are saying that Penny doesn't remember telling him she wouldn't sleep with him.

 

7. Yes, our definitions are different.  I may not be wording everything perfectly, but I don't think you are giving me enough credit here.  You don't have to agree with me, but I really don't think I am picking and choosing between two different definitions.  Every case I have made I have made clear distinctions between what I think the characters wanted to do and what they did do and how that changes with alcohol.  At times, because of her drinking, Penny either sleeps with or wants to sleep with people she doesn't want to.  Again, the want doesn't always have to be about attraction.  Maybe she really wants to sleep with Leonard, maybe she doesn't, my point is that I don't think she would have when sober even if she had wanted to.  At least prior to season 3 anyway and post season 3 break up. 

Edited September 17, 2013 by JonRS92

[JonRS92]

The root of the problem is that there is a large group of people that think no standards should apply to anyone. There is no such thing as "wrong" behavior. Any behavior can be rationalized away depending on the "situation". Usually so someone can feel better about themselves. 

 

I actually had someone argue that Penny knows how she is when she is drunk, so Raj wasn't really taking advantage of her because he had her tacit permission to have sex, even though she was so blasted she couldn't remember it.

 

Thats not OK in my world. 

 

There's a saying "A fool repeats mistakes, intelligence learns from mistakes, wisdom learns from the mistakes of others."

 

Standards are nothing more than lessons learned from the mistakes of others, codified for the convenience of the wise. 

 

Let the name calling begin

I kind of agree with you here.  I do think that Penny at that point had to know what could happen if she got drunk, but I also think Raj deserves way more blame than Penny.  I don't know why the writers have her assuming so much responsibility for this when Penny should know how screwed up Raj is in the head.  His hitting on Bernadette with no regard for his best friend is not the action of a good person and Penny witnessed this first hand.  Now I'll admit that Penny was not there in the apartment to see Raj rooting for the break up even after Penny yelled at him, but everyone else was.  I just don't get the writers continually having the girls keep telling Raj what a catch he is after both of these incidents.  I also question the writers having Raj believe that Penny liked him.  He remembers enough to know they didn't sleep together but doesn't remember she said she didn't want to?  The writers need to give Raj a wake-up but having Penny forgive Raj or go along with his wanting to lie about it strains my tolerance.

 

I have problems with anyone calling out anyone for having as little sex as Penny has had. Since the invention of reliable contraception, birth control and the equality of women before the law, standards have changed. Women used need be chaste because sex was a risky proposition. 100 years ago sex was a bit like russian roulette, and if you were capable of child birth and didn't die the first time you likely had twelve kids to work on the farm and keep you in your old age. Many of them would die anyway. That and inherited property laws got us to where we are now. Judging Penny is almost a medieval exercise, as consequences today are very different to those of the past.

Generally Penny was a consenting adult and sometimes she drank too much. Like many. Gosh. NOW she is happy. Yay.

My naive view.

Penny has had little sex?  What character are you seeing?  I know we haven't seen much sex from her on screen, but it has been well-established by Penny herself and several people who know her how much sex she has had.  Now you can think whatever you want to about that.  I am not one who thinks that more sex equals a bad person.  But to say she has had little sex makes me wonder.

 

To further the point, I have problems calling out anyone for having as much sex as they want with fellow single consenting adults. As far as I am concerned, Penny could have had sex with the entire Caltech faculty (Mrs. Davis included) and I would still struggle to give a flying toss. As long as everyone gives their enthusiastic consent, it is none of my business. Both in real life and in fiction. 

 

Again, from my point of view, it is not the amount of sex that is the problem.  If, to use your example, Penny slept with every Cal-tech faculty member, how do you think Leonard would feel?  More importantly, how do you think she would feel about herself?  Penny is a good person who has expressed disappointment with herself for some of her sexual adventures.  She's hurt Leonard whom she loves.  You seem to not care about how actions affect others.  I've been cheated on by a girl who was drunk and slept with an ex.  It is not fun.  Now my experiences may color my opinions.  However, if you care about the characters and their happiness as I do, then what Penny did while drunk hurt.  Also, how much consent do you really think Penny made to sleep with Raj?  I'm guessing not much considering she can't remember it.

 

I don't think she has a drink problem at all, she's no different than most girls of her age that cant go out and enjoy themselves without having a few to many, you see it alot here in the UK and you also see it with all these so called party girls like Paris Hilton in Hollywood and places like that, every time you see a picture of them, they're coming out a party hammered.

 

She kind of does considering she's not happy with her own behavior and was not able to stop until season 5.  She might not have a problem now, but she sure seemed to before.

Edited September 17, 2013 by JonRS92

[rickfromillinois]

I seem to remember an episode where Penny stated that they would have to travel a ways to find a bar where someone there hadn't seen her naked.   That would indicate that there have been many additional instances where alcohol played a role in making choices that were perhaps unwise.   If you end up sleeping with someone after you have been drinking that you had no intention of sleeping with when you were sober, then your drinking is a problem.