Character Penny's Drinking Issues

[Martin Pollard]

I seem to remember an episode where Penny stated that they would have to travel a ways to find a bar where someone there hadn't seen her naked.   That would indicate that there have been many additional instances where alcohol played a role in making choices that were perhaps unwise.   If you end up sleeping with someone after you have been drinking that you had no intention of sleeping with when you were sober, then your drinking is a problem.

 

That was in "The Skank Reflex Analysis", and she never mentioned a bar:

 

Penny: You know what? Let's get out of here.

Amy: Where are we going?

Penny: Someplace where no one's seen me naked. We... may have to drive a while.

 

She may have intended to go to a bar, but that was never mentioned or even implied.

[Guitars1964]

That was in "The Skank Reflex Analysis", and she never mentioned a bar:

 

Penny: You know what? Let's get out of here.

Amy: Where are we going?

Penny: Someplace where no one's seen me naked. We... may have to drive a while.

 

She may have intended to go to a bar, but that was never mentioned or even implied.

 

Well, OK... but I'd guess we're talking about making bad decisions probably driven by the fog of alcohol, since we know she isn't generally making bad decisions when she's sober.  I think rickfromillinois makes a valid point.  And I'm not sure what sort of location or venue we should assume she is referring to where she got naked, presumably in public,  if not a bar.

[Disgusted]

.  And I'm not sure what sort of location or venue we should assume she is referring to where she got naked, presumably in public,  if not a bar.

 

Leonard: Elevators, parks, movie theatres, out of curiosity, is this subway the transportation system or subway the sandwich shop?

[PaleLeper]

I would say on the instance where she said "where no one has seen me naked", she was speaking to be away from the apartment building.  At this point Penny is going through a huge emotional meltdown.  She is in love with Leonard, but since she has major commitment issues she cannot face she denies them and tries to show an outside impression of happiness or non-concern for his relationship with Pryia.  She also very much feels for Raj and his issues, he is a friend, but she is shocked by what has happened, lets face it, although she does not know yet of his inability to preform, the fact is she did get undressed and take him to bed.  Remember in her defense she thinks she has lost Leonard forever and it is all her fault.  In fact some of the fault, heck a major part of it does fall on Leonard (which most of us have done in real life), that he could not let go of the issue and give it some time to work out for itself, instead he did act like a dog with a bone.  A lot of us can remember a time when we have been on at least one side of this romantic relationship, I find it refreshing that this show is not afraid to show the craziness that can be love.

[ArmyGirl]

....

  Remember in her defense she thinks she has lost Leonard forever and it is all her fault.  In fact some of the fault, heck a major part of it does fall on Leonard (which most of us have done in real life), that he could not let go of the issue and give it some time to work out for itself, instead he did act like a dog with a bone. 

 

A lot of us can remember a time when we have been on at least one side of this romantic relationship, I find it refreshing that this show is not afraid to show the craziness that can be love.

 

So are you trying to say that Leonard's at fault for all the crazy and stupid things Penny done before and after she dumped him?  Also, Penny commitment issues is Leonard's fault --- even though Penny didn't seen to have these same issues while being (living) with Kurt or (dating) Mike, which crop up out of nowhere once she became involve with Leonard.  So I am trying to understand why all of a sudden Leonard is now responsible for Penny's problems.

 

eta:

 

Also Leonard did finally let go and moved on with Priya. So I guess he wasn't always like a dog with a bone.  Also, I guess Leonard never had the right to ask where their relationship was going at the time, I mean it's wrong in some eyes to ask your SO if they love you.  I just wonder if it had been Penny asking Leonard if he loved her and got no answer would the same standard apply that Penny needs to just let it go.  So how I don't think the very same people dogging Leonard would feel the same.

Edited September 17, 2013 by ArmyGirl

[PaleLeper]

ArmyGirl,

  I get where you are coming from, I have been there, done that, and got the T-Shirt.  Yes in life we are all responsible for our own actions, but there are things that can alter us at our core.  Penny has spoken in the past tense of a care free lifestyle, but it is evident that with Curt whom she had a commitment of 4 years, that she invested a large amount of her personal well-being into that relationship, and got burned.  This would make a lot of people afraid to commit deeply into a relationship.  Is Leonard at fault for this, no, but what he is at fault for is his own issues, and to be honest a profound expression of need, which would push someone like Penny whom has been recently burned in a relationship away. Sometimes things fail due to people being so caught up in their own emotions, that they cannot see beyond them.   Is it right?  Is it fair?  No, it is neither, but it does happen.

T

[JonRS92]

I seem to remember an episode where Penny stated that they would have to travel a ways to find a bar where someone there hadn't seen her naked.   That would indicate that there have been many additional instances where alcohol played a role in making choices that were perhaps unwise.   If you end up sleeping with someone after you have been drinking that you had no intention of sleeping with when you were sober, then your drinking is a problem.

 

I think this is the point I have been trying to make.  Getting drunk enough to sleep with someone you wouldn't sleep with while sober (including Leonard) equals drinking problem and since her drinking problems have only been described as sexual escapades that she admits herself to regretting (behaviors she keeps repeating) how would one describe her behavior?

 

That was in "The Skank Reflex Analysis", and she never mentioned a bar:

 

Penny: You know what? Let's get out of here.

Amy: Where are we going?

Penny: Someplace where no one's seen me naked. We... may have to drive a while.

 

She may have intended to go to a bar, but that was never mentioned or even implied.

 

Correct and to be fair I don't think she meant a bar.  Considering she asked to go to Amy's I think we can reasonable assume she wasn't talking about a bar.  That she mentioned the naked comment again goes to show her past recurring behavior that she cannot seem to control to that point.  Although, again to be fair, the Raj incident seems to have been the final straw for her to change.  We'll see what the writers do about that.

 

Leonard: Elevators, parks, movie theatres, out of curiosity, is this subway the transportation system or subway the sandwich shop?

 

Yet more proof of behavior that I forgot about.  It happened off screen but since moving in.

 

Well, OK... but I'd guess we're talking about making bad decisions probably driven by the fog of alcohol, since we know she isn't generally making bad decisions when she's sober.  I think rickfromillinois makes a valid point.  And I'm not sure what sort of location or venue we should assume she is referring to where she got naked, presumably in public,  if not a bar.

 

I doubt she was stripping down at a bar.  Though you could argue that she met people at bars with whom she got naked with very quickly such as Dave Underhill (although she didn't meet him at a bar).  Again though, I don't think Penny wanted to go to a bar with Amy.

 

I would say on the instance where she said "where no one has seen me naked", she was speaking to be away from the apartment building.  At this point Penny is going through a huge emotional meltdown.  She is in love with Leonard, but since she has major commitment issues she cannot face she denies them and tries to show an outside impression of happiness or non-concern for his relationship with Pryia.  She also very much feels for Raj and his issues, he is a friend, but she is shocked by what has happened, lets face it, although she does not know yet of his inability to preform, the fact is she did get undressed and take him to bed.  Remember in her defense she thinks she has lost Leonard forever and it is all her fault.  In fact some of the fault, heck a major part of it does fall on Leonard (which most of us have done in real life), that he could not let go of the issue and give it some time to work out for itself, instead he did act like a dog with a bone.  A lot of us can remember a time when we have been on at least one side of this romantic relationship, I find it refreshing that this show is not afraid to show the craziness that can be love.

 

I think she meant more than just the apartment building.  I agree with all of your other points except putting a major portion of the blame for her break up on Leonard.  Should he have let it go?  Yes.  But to break up with someone because they confessed love for you seems strange to me.  I've never had that happen to me but I would think on the list of couples issues that this one could be worked out without a break up.  Even if she couldn't say she loved him she obviously still cared for him and I don't believe she really wanted to break up with him.  Yet she did, after a stupid comment about needing a bowling strike of all things.  What I will blame Leonard for is immediately sleeping with that Dr. friend of Sheldon's.  I bet that he and Penny would have gotten back together quicker if he had not acted like a jerk there.  Again, part of me thinks that this is an issue of poor writing.  If Leonard cares for Penny so much that he keeps going back to her why would he sleep with another woman so soon?  I don't think that is in character with Leonard.  But since we have to accept that as it happened, I still don't think it is enough to put the majority of the blame for his break up with Penny on him.

 

ArmyGirl,

  I get where you are coming from, I have been there, done that, and got the T-Shirt.  Yes in life we are all responsible for our own actions, but there are things that can alter us at our core.  Penny has spoken in the past tense of a care free lifestyle, but it is evident that with Curt whom she had a commitment of 4 years, that she invested a large amount of her personal well-being into that relationship, and got burned.  This would make a lot of people afraid to commit deeply into a relationship.  Is Leonard at fault for this, no, but what he is at fault for is his own issues, and to be honest a profound expression of need, which would push someone like Penny whom has been recently burned in a relationship away. Sometimes things fail due to people being so caught up in their own emotions, that they cannot see beyond them.   Is it right?  Is it fair?  No, it is neither, but it does happen.

T

I admit that I am no expert, but I don't think Leonard's need to hear someone he cares about in life express some love for him is break-up worthy problem.  Penny knows Leonard's life has been devoid of any real love at least from his parents and previous girlfriends.  I get her commitment issues, but does that mean she doesn't have to understand Leonard's need for love from her?  Relationships are partnerships and compromise.  If all Leonard really wants from Penny is to feel loved..well given every other bad thing I have heard about in relationships, I hardly think this would be a deal breaker.  But again, I am no expert.  I still think the break up was equal blame.

[Nogravitasatall]

Penny has had little sex?  What character are you seeing?  I know we haven't seen much sex from her on screen, but it has been well-established by Penny herself and several people who know her how much sex she has had.  Now you can think whatever you want to about that.  I am not one who thinks that more sex equals a bad person.  But to say she has had little sex makes me wonder.

 

Penny draws attention because of her gender and appearance.  Penny has been just a bit adventurous (despite Sheldon's, I believe, fallacious math).  For a period of time she dated frequently - and its true her number is higher than she is now happy with. This is not an uncommon thing. But my point is it doesn't bother me as it bothers some and my perhaps facetious comment tries to suggest that. From what I have seen in the show her phase is over.

 

Also, as I noted earlier, whenever someone deploys 'slut ' in the argument (and generally by wronged men) the debate boils down to competing values and relative standards, and anecdotes. Anecdotally I know, and flatted with, people who were far more intense in their sexual endeavours. Penny went through a phase of her life and has moved on. This is also her situation with drinking. And all this has made the show much more engaging on an emotional level, so yay.

[Martin Pollard]

Well, OK... but I'd guess we're talking about making bad decisions probably driven by the fog of alcohol, since we know she isn't generally making bad decisions when she's sober.  I think rickfromillinois makes a valid point.  And I'm not sure what sort of location or venue we should assume she is referring to where she got naked, presumably in public,  if not a bar.

 

Let me be clear: I'm not actually taking part in this discussion. I was simply making sure that the correct facts were out there.

[JonRS92]

Penny draws attention because of her gender and appearance.  Penny has been just a bit adventurous (despite Sheldon's, I believe, fallacious math).  For a period of time she dated frequently - and its true her number is higher than she is now happy with. This is not an uncommon thing. But my point is it doesn't bother me as it bothers some and my perhaps facetious comment tries to suggest that. From what I have seen in the show her phase is over.

 

Also, as I noted earlier, whenever someone deploys 'slut ' in the argument (and generally by wronged men) the debate boils down to competing values and relative standards, and anecdotes. Anecdotally I know, and flatted with, people who were far more intense in their sexual endeavours. Penny went through a phase of her life and has moved on. This is also her situation with drinking. And all this has made the show much more engaging on an emotional level, so yay.

Valid points.  To be clear, I base none of my assumptions about Penny on Sheldon's math.  The only part of my opinion on Penny's sex life that I take from Sheldon is his observation in 6.2 that he has personally witnessed men coming and going from her apartment.

 

As for my use of "slut" to describe Penny, I want to explain again that I view Penny's behavior while drunk as slutty.  I don't view Penny the person as a slut.  Am I splitting hairs?  Maybe.  Part of my definition of slut is that the person enjoys that behavior and I don't believe that Penny does.  I hold to the belief that you can exhibit slutty behavior without actually being a slut.  Penny, to me, is one such person.  The number of times that she has expressed remorse about her behavior more than shows she is not proud of herself.  What she had (past tense) was a drinking problem that led to behavior that some would consider kind of slutty.  Whether you think that behavior was intentional on the part of the writers or a gimmick to get laughs is another matter.  You are also correct that how someone views another's behavior is influenced by a number of factors: upbringing, religion, media portrayal, life experience, etc.  I am not so sure that I would use geographic location, as some have in this discussion, to define behavior.  Maybe some places are populated with more like-thinking individuals, but I am sure you'd find people in Los Angeles with attitudes about sex that are more conservative.

 

In the end, what we believe of Penny is our own opinion.  I may prove your point that it is generally wronged men who use the term slut since, as I mentioned before, I was a wronged man.  But I would venture to guess that a lot more females would view her drunk behavior as problematic than males would.  It depends on what kind of females you are talking about too.  You say that Penny has been adventurous.  A valid opinion.  I would agree with you on all of the incidents where she has had sex and not regretted it later whatever the number is.  My focus in this thread has always been on the incidents that she has regretted and what led to them and what she should have done to minimize them. 

Edited September 17, 2013 by JonRS92

[rickfromillinois]

That was in "The Skank Reflex Analysis", and she never mentioned a bar:

 

Penny: You know what? Let's get out of here.

Amy: Where are we going?

Penny: Someplace where no one's seen me naked. We... may have to drive a while.

 

She may have intended to go to a bar, but that was never mentioned or even implied.

So where did she go, the local quicky mart?

[JonRS92]

So where did she go, the local quicky mart?

They went to Amy's apartment.

[Tensor]

Yet more proof of behavior that I forgot about.  It happened off screen but since moving in

It needs to be pointed out that the behavior described was with one guy and she was in a relationship with him at the time.

[Nogravitasatall]

Im hoping Leonard gets some of the joy from Penny's risky and risque behaviour in the future. Sex in the ocean was a start but that was pre The Holographic Excitation. I think it would be an hillarious episode if Dr Hofstadter gets a warning for making out like a teenager somewhere inappropriate. He missed out on all that stuff with his hothouse eduction and hermetic existence. Let them have some consenusal and guilt free fun. And now I'm back on my holiday wish. When do these guys get a vacation for goodness sake.

[Nogravitasatall]

 

The locket just makes me every single time! 

and this.

 

Just to remind us that over 3 real years have elapsed since The Wheaton Recurrence and over two real years since the Roommate Trasnmogrification

Edited September 18, 2013 by Nogravitasatall

[JonRS92]

and this.

 

Just to remind us that over 3 real years have elapsed since The Wheaton Recurrence and over two real years since the Roommate Trasnmogrification

 

I am assuming that is a still from episode 7.2?

It needs to be pointed out that the behavior described was with one guy and she was in a relationship with him at the time.

 

Excellent point.

[Nogravitasatall]

Promo shot from somewhere, yes. Or maybe Leonard drowned. We will see. LOL.

[3ku11]

I think everyone is over exagerrating Penny's love life I think the writers like to play it up a bit. When it comes to the bar comment, she never meant she slept with a ton of guys, she was most likely refering to S1 when that guy blogged about their sex life, they did it in Subways, Trains e.t.c. And most likely in the other relationships shes been in she has been very adventorous and sexually active in those select relationships, this does not the count the many variables in those relationships. So I completly disagree that Penny can be slutty when drunk, wheres your evidence? Take Raj out of the picture which to me was more a poor lack of judgement, and she must of drunk way too much, and emotionally she was in a dark place. Shes human she made a mistake, tbh tho you could argue Raj took adavantage of Penny's emotional state. Tbh tho I dont kno why everyone was so surprised, it was obviousley going to happen 2 episodes b4 Raj was lonely so was Penny, they bonded over their mutual disliking of the Leonard and Priya Relationship. You could tell someone was going to do something stupid, alcahol can make even the well intended ppl make bad decisisons. Lets be honest under normal circumstances it woulden't of happened, that's the point some are trying to make here aren't they? That generally Penny's behavour is not slutty, but once she drinks she becomes Hyde lol, which I completly disagree with, most of her "sluttiness" have been circumstancial. Most of her references to for example "You well have to go along way to find somewhere where no one has seen me naked" When Penny says stuff like this 1. The writers are just over exagerrating for comedic releif and 2. When she says this she is clearly showing remorse fkr her past actions, and wants to share with particularly Amy and Bernadette, this no where says she has slept with thousands of guys when drunk, it's just in those relationships with those select guys she has been very adventerous in her past.

 

But imo even post S2 Penny started dating less and started hanging out with the guys more, early on in S2 The Barbarian Sublimation, Penny revealed to Sheldon that she hasen't had sex in six months, so tell when in that time did she get drink and evolve into SuperSlut! Her special powers The Iniator lol, like I said her sexual history are specific to the circumstances and those guys she was with. It was a phase in her when she was young made some stupid mistakes, but the main thing is she learnt from them and her Leonard are stronger as a consequence. And lets not act like Leonard's so innoccent in all this and Penny's so horrible, Tbh we've seen more of Leonard in bed more then Penny, and sleeping with that prof chick IMO is much worser then Penny comin home drunk and hooking up with Leonard, she missed the familiarity of their relationship and the fact it has changed her in terms of her ability to tolerate dumb guys has severley diminished. Where as Leonard did it because he wanted to get over Penny, but the only reason he had to give Penny is she let me lol, but double standard their, he does it Leonard is innocent because he is a nerd, where as Penny being the blonde girl next door who's used to guys hitting on her all time, she's referred to as a slut.

As for DU thats the exception I thought she was really hypocritical their, she wont date Leonard because she feels he is too smart for her, yet she had no problem dating DU who was really a cross between her usual dumb gym guy and Leonard lol. To be fair tho maybe after dating Kurt and living with him for four years, she really got burned their as you saw in the pilot, she just broke up with her BF of four years, and the guys especially Leonard became a support system for her. Besides it's riduclous to complain about Penny's perceived Drinking Habits or Choice in men, I mean just like her relationship with Leonard she has been a work in progress. Imo tho I never felt she had a drinking problem, iv'e never seen any evidence to suggest otherwise, S1-3 she drank in social occasions and when she broke up with a guy and Leonard was their for her, she was drinking Egg Nog/Vodka, when DU turned out to be married, I think thats when she got over the whole Leonard is too smart for her thing. Besides you need to look at other factors to explain why she has been really promiscious with guys in the past, or why she drinks or why she choose the guys she choose is mostly due to her relationship with her father, and the Barbarian Sublimation to me anyway really explained all this, she used World's of Warcraft as an online escape from her current reality; Haden't got a major acting role in 2 years at that point, haden't had sex in six months. Because tbh since S2 Penny's slutty behavour when drinking really diminished, cannot after The Bath Item EP remember her dating all that much, and since S3 Post Leonard she hardly dated at all. Remember in an ep in S4 Bernadette made a comment about bringing a guy home and how great it would be, Penny actually showed some growth and maturity and wisdom in her response, said "Yeah but it's not really worth it you feel really horrible in the morning" Bernadette still was keen lol. That to me tho showed Penny in the past had drunk too much and in her younger days done stupid things, but has now learnt from them and is now showing remorse and regret.

 

So Penny had a very active sex life in her younger years like 19-21, and she also has drank a bit in her teens, and in S4 she was depressed and drank a bit in social occasions and may of got drunk a few times. But it was a phase of her life she was going through this does not make her a bad person, and not for one second have I ever thought she drinks too much, 90 % of the time she is drinking water, coffee when she was drinkingit was usually when drinking with B & A, just watched whole S4 she hardly drunk the entire season with the finalie being the exception lol. Sorry for the long post once you get a train of thought, one last thing I remember in S5 Sheldon's Mother visited and she told her since Leonard she haden't dated at all, so she started to focus on herself which waa a big step in Penny growing up.

Edited September 18, 2013 by 3ku11

[Nogravitasatall]

3ku11, I also think it's such an intense emotional ride, particularly, when marathoned, that people respond intensely. "Time heals all wounds " is the adage I recommend. But "never forgive, never forget" is popular too. Heheheh.

[JonRS92]

I think everyone is over exagerrating Penny's love life I think the writers like to play it up a bit. When it comes to the bar comment, she never meant she slept with a ton of guys, she was most likely refering to S1 when that guy blogged about their sex life, they did it in Subways, Trains e.t.c. And most likely in the other relationships shes been in she has been very adventorous and sexually active in those select relationships, this does not the count the many variables in those relationships. So I completly disagree that Penny can be slutty when drunk, wheres your evidence? Take Raj out of the picture which to me was more a poor lack of judgement, and she must of drunk way too much, and emotionally she was in a dark place. Shes human she made a mistake, tbh tho you could argue Raj took adavantage of Penny's emotional state. Tbh tho I dont kno why everyone was so surprised, it was obviousley going to happen 2 episodes b4 Raj was lonely so was Penny, they bonded over their mutual disliking of the Leonard and Priya Relationship. You could tell someone was going to do something stupid, alcahol can make even the well intended ppl make bad decisisons. Lets be honest under normal circumstances it woulden't of happened, that's the point some are trying to make here aren't they? That generally Penny's behavour is not slutty, but once she drinks she becomes Hyde lol, which I completly disagree with, most of her "sluttiness" have been circumstancial. Most of her references to for example "You well have to go along way to find somewhere where no one has seen me naked" When Penny says stuff like this 1. The writers are just over exagerrating for comedic releif and 2. When she says this she is clearly showing remorse fkr her past actions, and wants to share with particularly Amy and Bernadette, this no where says she has slept with thousands of guys when drunk, it's just in those relationships with those select guys she has been very adventerous in her past.

You make a really good argument, but you almost make my point for me. You say that her "sluttiness" is circumstantial and that somehow means her actions aren't slutty at all. Of course her "sluttiness" is circumstantial. It seems to only happen when she drinks too much. In addition, I don't see how you can just take the Raj incident out of the equation. Whatever dark place she was in the results are still the same. That was her worst mistake and ultimately, I believe, the one that turned her around. And your description of her becoming Hyde when she drinks is very apropos considering that Penny called herself Mrs. Whore in 5.1 when talking about what happens when she drinks too much. I kind of chuckle at this and even though I know she needed to say Whore to make the joke sound right, it would have been more accurate for her to call herself "Mrs. Slut" Why you may ask? Simple, whores get paid LOL. I had completely forgotten about her comment in that episode until your post triggered my memory. From that it seems like Penny herself is admitting to the slutty behavior that comes out when she drinks too much. You are also right about Raj. You can make a very good argument that he took advantage of her. He knew very well she didn't want to sleep with him. The best case scenario is that he was too stupid to put two and two together. The worst case scenario, the one I believe, is that he knew and took advantage. He's shown himself willing to exploit his friends' misfortunes in the past like he did by hitting on Bernadette as soon as he heard about her and Howard's troubles. The guy's a jerk.

 

But imo even post S2 Penny started dating less and started hanging out with the guys more, early on in S2 The Barbarian Sublimation, Penny revealed to Sheldon that she hasen't had sex in six months, so tell when in that time did she get drink and evolve into SuperSlut! Her special powers The Iniator lol, like I said her sexual history are specific to the circumstances and those guys she was with. It was a phase in her when she was young made some stupid mistakes, but the main thing is she learnt from them and her Leonard are stronger as a consequence.

I don't think that anyone is saying that Penny drinks all of the time. the crux of the matter is this: Would you agree or disagree that when Penny drinks too much she becomes more open to sex with people she would not have slept with had she been sober? Arguing that this happens to everyone really doesn't excuse the behavior. Now I acknowledge that we do not see it very much. A lot of her character you have to infer from conversations and her own comments about her behavior. In seasons 1-3, as I have posted many times, Penny three sexual choices while under the influence of a lot of alcohol. Yes, they were all with Leonard but that doesn't matter. In season 1, she came on to Leonard after the Halloween party and while he wanted to sleep with her, even he knew she didn't really want to do it. In season 2, both of them get drunk and end up in bed. This time the dynamic has changed and it seems more consensual. It can be argued that Penny was interested in Leonard and was maybe even sexually attracted to him. However, if she really wanted to sleep with him at that point in their relationship, why did she never come on to him while sober? As for the season 3 indecent after the break up, it amazes me that most who argue that this was no big deal completely ignore the fallout after where Leonard thought they were getting back to together and was devastated that Penny never had any intention of that. In the morning after we see an embarrassed Penny who regrets what she had done. I agree with you that Penny has learned from her mistakes, but I do not believe that this is what made her bond with Leonard stronger. At least not the lessons from her sexual mistakes.

 

And lets not act like Leonard's so innoccent in all this and Penny's so horrible, Tbh we've seen more of Leonard in bed more then Penny, and sleeping with that prof chick IMO is much worser then Penny comin home drunk and hooking up with Leonard, she missed the familiarity of their relationship and the fact it has changed her in terms of her ability to tolerate dumb guys has severley diminished. Where as Leonard did it because he wanted to get over Penny, but the only reason he had to give Penny is she let me lol, but double standard their, he does it Leonard is innocent because he is a nerd, where as Penny being the blonde girl next door who's used to guys hitting on her all time, she's referred to as a slut.

You are right. Leonard is not innocent and has made his share of mistakes, but no one is saying that Penny is horrible. We may have seen Leonard in bed more but that is only because the story is about him and Sheldon. If you want to look at Penny and Leonard side by side in terms of relationships, both with intercourse and without, it would look like this: Leonard has been with Priya, Dr. Stephanie, Sheldon's doctor friend, Leslie W., Alice, and the old lady donor. Penny has been with Mike, Dave, Stuart, Raj, and Zach. About 6-5 to Leonard which is hardly a runaway.

 

As for DU thats the exception I thought she was really hypocritical their, she wont date Leonard because she feels he is too smart for her, yet she had no problem dating DU who was really a cross between her usual dumb gym guy and Leonard lol. To be fair tho maybe after dating Kurt and living with him for four years, she really got burned their as you saw in the pilot, she just broke up with her BF of four years, and the guys especially Leonard became a support system for her. Besides it's riduclous to complain about Penny's perceived Drinking Habits or Choice in men, I mean just like her relationship with Leonard she has been a work in progress. Imo tho I never felt she had a drinking problem, iv'e never seen any evidence to suggest otherwise, S1-3 she drank in social occasions and when she broke up with a guy and Leonard was their for her, she was drinking Egg Nog/Vodka, when DU turned out to be married, I think thats when she got over the whole Leonard is too smart for her thing. Besides you need to look at other factors to explain why she has been really promiscious with guys in the past, or why she drinks or why she choose the guys she choose is mostly due to her relationship with her father, and the Barbarian Sublimation to me anyway really explained all this, she used World's of Warcraft as an online escape from her current reality; Haden't got a major acting role in 2 years at that point, haden't had sex in six months. Because tbh since S2 Penny's slutty behavour when drinking really diminished, cannot after The Bath Item EP remember her dating all that much, and since S3 Post Leonard she hardly dated at all. Remember in an ep in S4 Bernadette made a comment about bringing a guy home and how great it would be, Penny actually showed some growth and maturity and wisdom in her response, said "Yeah but it's not really worth it you feel really horrible in the morning" Bernadette still was keen lol. That to me tho showed Penny in the past had drunk too much and in her younger days done stupid things, but has now learnt from them and is now showing remorse and regret.

 

So Penny had a very active sex life in her younger years like 19-21, and she also has drank a bit in her teens, and in S4 she was depressed and drank a bit in social occasions and may of got drunk a few times. But it was a phase of her life she was going through this does not make her a bad person, and not for one second have I ever thought she drinks too much, 90 % of the time she is drinking water, coffee when she was drinkingit was usually when drinking with B & A, just watched whole S4 she hardly drunk the entire season with the finalie being the exception lol. Sorry for the long post once you get a train of thought, one last thing I remember in S5 Sheldon's Mother visited and she told her since Leonard she haden't dated at all, so she started to focus on herself which waa a big step in Penny growing up.

Again, it does not matter how many times she drinks, the point is what happens when she does and in nearly every case we have seen on screen, it led to or nearly led to a sexual encounter she would have regretted. Does this make her a bad person? No, absolutely not. I think Penny is a wonderful person, especially season 6 Penny.

Ok, there was a lot in there and I hope I didn't screw up any thoughts or facts.

[3ku11]

You make a really good argument, but you almost make my point for me. You say that her "sluttiness" is circumstantial and that somehow means her actions aren't slutty at all. Of course her "sluttiness" is circumstantial. It seems to only happen when she drinks too much. In addition, I don't see how you can just take the Raj incident out of the equation. Whatever dark place she was in the results are still the same. That was her worst mistake and ultimately, I believe, the one that turned her around. And your description of her becoming Hyde when she drinks is very apropos considering that Penny called herself Mrs. Whore in 5.1 when talking about what happens when she drinks too much. I kind of chuckle at this and even though I know she needed to say Whore to make the joke sound right, it would have been more accurate for her to call herself "Mrs. Slut" Why you may ask? Simple, whores get paid LOL. I had completely forgotten about her comment in that episode until your post triggered my memory. From that it seems like Penny herself is admitting to the slutty behavior that comes out when she drinks too much. You are also right about Raj. You can make a very good argument that he took advantage of her. He knew very well she didn't want to sleep with him. The best case scenario is that he was too stupid to put two and two together. The worst case scenario, the one I believe, is that he knew and took advantage. He's shown himself willing to exploit his friends' misfortunes in the past like he did by hitting on Bernadette as soon as he heard about her and Howard's troubles. The guy's a jerk.

 

I don't think that anyone is saying that Penny drinks all of the time. the crux of the matter is this: Would you agree or disagree that when Penny drinks too much she becomes more open to sex with people she would not have slept with had she been sober? Arguing that this happens to everyone really doesn't excuse the behavior. Now I acknowledge that we do not see it very much. A lot of her character you have to infer from conversations and her own comments about her behavior. In seasons 1-3, as I have posted many times, Penny three sexual choices while under the influence of a lot of alcohol. Yes, they were all with Leonard but that doesn't matter. In season 1, she came on to Leonard after the Halloween party and while he wanted to sleep with her, even he knew she didn't really want to do it. In season 2, both of them get drunk and end up in bed. This time the dynamic has changed and it seems more consensual. It can be argued that Penny was interested in Leonard and was maybe even sexually attracted to him. However, if she really wanted to sleep with him at that point in their relationship, why did she never come on to him while sober? As for the season 3 indecent after the break up, it amazes me that most who argue that this was no big deal completely ignore the fallout after where Leonard thought they were getting back to together and was devastated that Penny never had any intention of that. In the morning after we see an embarrassed Penny who regrets what she had done. I agree with you that Penny has learned from her mistakes, but I do not believe that this is what made her bond with Leonard stronger. At least not the lessons from her sexual mistakes.

 

You are right. Leonard is not innocent and has made his share of mistakes, but no one is saying that Penny is horrible. We may have seen Leonard in bed more but that is only because the story is about him and Sheldon. If you want to look at Penny and Leonard side by side in terms of relationships, both with intercourse and without, it would look like this: Leonard has been with Priya, Dr. Stephanie, Sheldon's doctor friend, Leslie W., Alice, and the old lady donor. Penny has been with Mike, Dave, Stuart, Raj, and Zach. About 6-5 to Leonard which is hardly a runaway.

 

Again, it does not matter how many times she drinks, the point is what happens when she does and in nearly every case we have seen on screen, it led to or nearly led to a sexual encounter she would have regretted. Does this make her a bad person? No, absolutely not. I think Penny is a wonderful person, especially season 6 Penny.

Ok, there was a lot in there and I hope I didn't screw up any thoughts or facts.

I guess we agree on some level in terms of Penny's life, but then again completely disagree on others. I'm not saying Penny never made stupid mistakes when drinking, but I just cannot recall a time onscreen anyway in the show that she got drunk and slept with a guy, other then Leonard or Raj. I mean her being sober had absouletley nothing to do with not wanting to sleep with Leonard, and everything to do with the fact she just wasen't ready, the time when they almost slept together happened because they were both drinking over bonding over their respective parents, last time I checked Leonard wasen't drugged lol, they are both consenting adults who can make decisions where they see fit regardless of the consequences. I point I am trying to make really is Penny is not a slut sober or drunk, she is very sociable and made some mistakes with her past relationships, but what we have seen since the Pilot is a girl who likes to have fun, and has had a very adventorus past with her relationships, like the guy who blogged about their sex life, they did it in Subways, Parks, Train Stations e.t.c. haha so you can get a backstory into her past through that even. But you got to understand that behaviour was specific to those select relationships and guys, I mean it would be different if she constantly got drunk every Saturday night and hooked up with random guys at bars, which Sheldon eluded to the fact he keep's seeing random guys walk in and out of her apartment, but to analyze that you would need to consider the varables of those relationships. And obviousley her choice in men and her bad decisions with her relationships just diddn't happen impulsively over night, just like Leonard chooses women who show affection and are women, women who are complete opposite of his cold distant mother, Penny prob chooses men for the very same reason. In S1 Penny dated 4 guys, or the guys we actually saw onscreen who she was dating, I remember she dated one guy in the 2nd half of S1, then obviousley things changed when she started dating Leonard. Other then Raj which was a huuuge mistake clearly, I think Penny was going through a difficult phase in her life, I think she has learnt from them and like you said in S6 everything is great, I do agree she drank signifcantly more then she had in the past in S4, not that she drank every episode but when she did she tended to get drunk, but she was going through a tough time then no Leonard, No Acting Career, non-active dating life e.t.c. I think from the writers POV in a messed up way sleeping with Raj forced her to hit rock bottom, and forced her to re-evulate her life, and she did. Now you see in S5 on wards, most of the time now her drinking is more refined to a couple of wines at Dinner, espeically with Leonard later on, hence why her behaviour as subsequent reacting to that drinking is non - existent, the variables in her life have signifcantly changed, that is what I meant by her Drinking was purley cirucumstancial. So now that we have established Penny has a colorful past let's focus on S7

[JonRS92]

I guess we agree on some level in terms of Penny's life, but then again completely disagree on others. I'm not saying Penny never made stupid mistakes when drinking, but I just cannot recall a time onscreen anyway in the show that she got drunk and slept with a guy, other then Leonard or Raj. I mean her being sober had absouletley nothing to do with not wanting to sleep with Leonard, and everything to do with the fact she just wasen't ready, the time when they almost slept together happened because they were both drinking over bonding over their respective parents, last time I checked Leonard wasen't drugged lol, they are both consenting adults who can make decisions where they see fit regardless of the consequences.

You are right, she's never made a mistake on screen with anyone but Leonard or Raj. You are also right in that Penny being sober had nothing to do with her desire to sleep with Leonard. What her being sober did do was allow her to make the right decision for her. However, as you saw, being drunk led to her making the wrong choices for her. You are also right that Leonard was not drugged. He was a willing participant, but as it pertains to seasons 1 and 2, as he says himself later on, he was in the relationship 2 years before Penny I've also mentioned many times here that I think Leonard makes the choice to sleep with Penny every time whether drunk or sober. The only time he turned her down was in season 1 when he thought she had no interest in him besides what alcohol was providing for her. The 2 times I think he really believed the alcohol made no difference because it made no difference to him.

I point I am trying to make really is Penny is not a slut sober or drunk, she is very sociable and made some mistakes with her past relationships, but what we have seen since the Pilot is a girl who likes to have fun, and has had a very adventorus past with her relationships, like the guy who blogged about their sex life, they did it in Subways, Parks, Train Stations e.t.c. haha so you can get a backstory into her past through that even. But you got to understand that behaviour was specific to those select relationships and guys, I mean it would be different if she constantly got drunk every Saturday night and hooked up with random guys at bars, which Sheldon eluded to the fact he keep's seeing random guys walk in and out of her apartment, but to analyze that you would need to consider the varables of those relationships. And obviousley her choice in men and her bad decisions with her relationships just diddn't happen impulsively over night,

This part made me look at this whole situation a little differently. While I agree with you that Penny is not a slut, I still maintain some of behavior when drunk is slutty. But be that as it may, you made me look at her character a little differently. What if Penny is exactly like both you and I say she is, but prior to meeting Leonard she didn't really care. As you said, she lived a carefree and spirited lifestyle. I'm going to have to go back and rewatch the first two seasons, but I am willing to bet that she didn't start acknowledging her regrets of her past until she started becoming interested in Leonard. I remember her telling Leonard once when he went to dinner with her in what he wanted to be a date, but she had no clue. I think that was when she admitted to the 36-hour thing and she said she didn't feel good after. Maybe at that point in her life she may have had some regrets but she didn't really know any other relationship type and maybe didn't think she could have better. Or maybe she was still in the mode of the typical popular girl who dates the types of guys she feels socially required to date. With Leonard that all changed despite the three incidents I have beaten to death in this thread. She was starting to become attracted to Leonard, but the alcohol things was still an issue. She wanted to treat a relationship with Leonard differently, but the alcohol crutch was still there and still making her make mistakes. I still say she had a drinking problem, I still say that she knows how she gets when drunk all the way up to Raj. However, because she never almost slept with someone she didn't care for (Leonard) maybe she thought she could handle it or maybe the problem still wasn't registering until it happened with Raj. All of a sudden she realized the Mrs. Whore part of her drinking persona.

just like Leonard chooses women who show affection and are women, women who are complete opposite of his cold distant mother, Penny prob chooses men for the very same reason. In S1 Penny dated 4 guys, or the guys we actually saw onscreen who she was dating, I remember she dated one guy in the 2nd half of S1, then obviousley things changed when she started dating Leonard. Other then Raj which was a huuuge mistake clearly, I think Penny was going through a difficult phase in her life, I think she has learnt from them and like you said in S6 everything is great, I do agree she drank signifcantly more then she had in the past in S4, not that she drank every episode but when she did she tended to get drunk, but she was going through a tough time then no Leonard, No Acting Career, non-active dating life e.t.c. I think from the writers POV in a messed up way sleeping with Raj forced her to hit rock bottom, and forced her to re-evulate her life, and she did.

I still don't think the circumstances of WHY she drank excuse the results of that drinking. I kind of agree with you about the writers, but if that is true then they have been very, very subtle about it. To this day other than Penny's pronouncement in episode 5.1, there has been no direct dealing with these issues. I still maintain it is a fortunate accident that we can make these arguments and that her sleeping with Raj was meant for shock and laughs. I could be wrong though.

Now you see in S5 on wards, most of the time now her drinking is more refined to a couple of wines at Dinner, espeically with Leonard later on, hence why her behaviour as subsequent reacting to that drinking is non - existent, the variables in her life have signifcantly changed, that is what I meant by her Drinking was purley cirucumstancial. So now that we have established Penny has a colorful past let's focus on S7

LOL, I am so ready for season 7, but I have also enjoyed the debate in this thread immensely.

[Chiara]

Again, from my point of view, it is not the amount of sex that is the problem.  If, to use your example, Penny slept with every Cal-tech faculty member, how do you think Leonard would feel?

If Penny slept with the entire CalTech faculty at a time when she and Leonard were not in an exclusive relationship, then I am not sure I would be comfortable with Leonard believing he has the right to have feelings about it.

 

What Penny did before their relationship started and after it ended has nothing more to do with him than it does with me or Daffy Duck.

 

More importantly, how do you think she would feel about herself?  Penny is a good person who has expressed disappointment with herself for some of her sexual adventures.  She's hurt Leonard whom she loves.  You seem to not care about how actions affect others.  I've been cheated on by a girl who was drunk and slept with an ex.  It is not fun.  Now my experiences may color my opinions.However, if you care about the characters and their happiness as I do, then what Penny did while drunk hurt.

 Penny has expressed some disappointment about some of her past actions. So what ? Regret is part of life. 

 

After the breakup, Leonard was shown to regret having told Penny he loved her for he felt it had precipitated the separation. By telling Penny he loved her and pressuring her to respond in kind, he put her on the spot and "hurt" her. Does it mean that telling people we love them and wanting them to love us back is bad in and by itself ? I hope not. It simply means that, given the type of relationship they were in at the time and the place Penny was in back then, saying ILY, expecting an immediate comeback and showing great disappointment (resentment even) when said comeback failed to materialise was not the greatest idea in the history of humankind.

The exact same logic applies to the impromptu proposal in season five.

 

Some seemingly good actions have unintended, negative consequences. Other actions appear to be good ideas on the moment but, for a variety of reasons, do not look so appealing at a later date. All lead those who undertake them to experiencing some degree of regret. That is part of life.

 

Also, how much consent do you really think Penny made to sleep with Raj?  I'm guessing not much considering she can't remember it.

That matter will forever be a bone of contention among fans. However, going by what the writers chose to tell us about it, at the time Penny was willing enough to walk all the way to Leonard's room, conscious enough to ask Raj whether he had protection and able enough to attempt to help him with it. To Raj, who was inebriated himself, it must have looked like she was just as active and enthusiastic (and drunken) a participant as he was.

 

As for her subsequent blackout and regret, it is extremely unfortunate. Nevertheless, I would imagine the regret part had much more to do with her fear of having destroyed the community of friends she and the guys had created by driving a wedge between Leonard and Raj than with the horror of having slept with the latter (or anybody else) while drunk. So, it was not so much the act she regretted (though she was not thrilled about that and expressed dismay at the prospect of Raj believing them to be an item) but what she thought the consequences of the act would be.

 

She kind of does considering she's not happy with her own behavior and was not able to stop until season 5.  She might not have a problem now, but she sure seemed to before.

Over the years, and even in the recent past, she has also expressed fondness for her past antics. She has cracked jokes about them (mint in the box virginity), discussed them with her girl posse (too many instances to count), etc. 

To nitpick those occurences she regrets and turn them into a series of symptoms, thereby turning her behaviour into the expression of a pathology, is not without bias.

 

A more objective way to look at it would be to say :

- Penny likes sex;

- Most of the time, Penny has sex while sober; sometimes, she does it when drunk;

- Sometime she has sex with people she is in a relationship with; sometimes she has flings;

- Occasionally, she regrets sleeping with the people she has slept with, whether in the context of a relationship or not (after all, she regretted sleeping with Mike after she found out about his blog, yet they were a couple and she was sober all the way through it).

 

Such a sumary would lead us to draw the following conclusions : 

- Penny loses some of her inhibitions when drunk;

- She did not always have the best taste in men;

- She sometimes comes to regret what she did when drunk; she sometimes comes to regret what she did when sober;

- All in all, Penny has always faced the consequences of her actions and dealt with her life on her own.

 

Seen in this light, her behaviour hardly qualifies as pathological. 

 

You say that Penny has been adventurous.  A valid opinion.  I would agree with you on all of the incidents where she has had sex and not regretted it later whatever the number is.  My focus in this thread has always been on the incidents that she has regretted and what led to them and what she should have done to minimize them.

But why focus on those instances and not on all the others ? Why decide that those are more meaningful and/or symptomatic ? And why assume she "should" have done anything to prevent the experiences she later regretted from happening ? 

Regret is part of life, both the real one and its fictional counterpart. Why would you expect Penny to take extraordinary measures to protect herself from a type of experience the other characters are free to go through ? 

 

Penny has done many things in her life. She has felt good about a majority of them, bad about some of them. From what we have seen, only a minority of the actions she felt miserable about had to do with sex and/or alcohol. And these were not the decisions she ended up regretting the most.

If we were to ask Penny, I suspect she would say she regrets breaking up with Leonard much more than she does sleeping with Raj (or any guy she had drunken coitus with). Yet, when the separation occured, she was stonecold sober and decidedly clothed.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Chiara

[Chiara]

Sorry for the double post.
 

In the end, what we believe of Penny is our own opinion. I may prove your point that it is generally wronged men who use the term slut since, as I mentioned before, I was a wronged man. But I would venture to guess that a lot more females would view her drunk behavior as problematic than males would. It depends on what kind of females you are talking about too.

I am a woman and I do not give a flying fig about Penny's sex life and/or drunk behaviour. Or Leonard's. Or Howard's. Or Raj's. Or Sheldon's. Or Amy's. Or Bernadette's. Or Mae West's. Or Victor Hugo's. Or my neighbour's.

As long as they do not harm anyone, I consider it none of my business.

I cannot wait to find out what "kind of females" that makes me.

[3ku11]

Let's be honest here the only reason Penny started drinking more or she even got herself into that position with Raj is because she broke up with Leonard that is it. Defining a drinking problem based on her getting drunk and making stupid decisions by sleeping with Raj or in general any guy, because her judgement was impaired does not = Drinking Problem. As we have seen it is NOT a regular occurance, she wasen't drunk the entire relationship lol, it is just when she is socialising or particualarly in S4 she drank a bit to deal with her emotions, people do it all the time, some people bing eat to deal with their emotions, does it mean they have a eating problem? Yes but in this instance if you look at S4 most of the drinking was done with Bernadette and Amy. All I'm saying is I don't agree that Penny drinking too much and sleeping a guy equates to a drinking problem, it equates to the circumstances, as under normal circumstances it would of never happened, not once did Penny cheat on Leonard nor does it sound like she cheated on any guy in any of her relationships, usually the other way around. I just think this drinking issue came from S4 really, she drank a bit more in S4, but other then that season I don't see any other evidence to suggest she ever had a problem. The Drinking part is the drinking, the actions of the Drinking is the Drinking it has nothing to do with the actions that follow, Drinking alot and sleeping with a guy and regretting it later on is one thing, but it does = Drinking Problem. Drinking and having Vodka with your cereal now that's a drinking problem! Lol but Penny never did that. All I am saying is give her the benefit of the doubt, she has made mistakes learnt from then, since S4 her drinking has been diminished alot, and is more refined to just a couple of wines at Dinner. She has colourful past with relationships, but that more has to do with her social makeup, and who she is as a person and her peers at that time, since meeting Leonard and the guys, even since the pilot the type of people who came to her parties you could, she is very sociable. Penny has never made no secrets about her past relationships, or the fact she has been very sexually active in them, I just don't agree that being drunk and sleeping with someone means you have a drinking problem, even Bernadette said she would do the same because it would be fun, but Penny has grown up and realized it is not always the best thing.