Character Penny's Drinking Issues

[JonRS92]

If Penny slept with the entire CalTech faculty at a time when she and Leonard were not in an exclusive relationship, then I am not sure I would be comfortable with Leonard believing he has the right to have feelings about it.

What Penny did before their relationship started and after it ended has nothing more to do with him than it does with me or Daffy Duck.

That's a pretty cold statement given that we know that Leonard never wanted to break up with Penny, nor did he ever stop loving her. While I would agree that he has no right to say anything to Penny, he has every right to have feelings. He wouldn't be human if a scenario you described happened and he didn't have feelings about it. I would also say that he loved Penny even while with Priya so while he can't say anything about it as they are split, it is going to affect him.

 

 

 

 

 Penny has expressed some disappointment about some of her past actions. So what ? Regret is part of life.

Edited September 18, 2013 by JonRS92

[JonRS92]

Since I just posted, it would let me quote anymore so I am going to do this one this way.

 

Chiara you said, "I am a woman and I do not give a flying fig about Penny's sex life and/or drunk behaviour. Or Leonard's. Or Howard's. Or Raj's. Or Sheldon's. Or Amy's. Or Bernadette's. Or Mae West's. Or Victor Hugo's. Or my neighbour's.

As long as they do not harm anyone, I consider it none of my business.

I cannot wait to find out what "kind of females" that makes me."

 

It doesn't make you anything.  Your opinion is your own.

 

3ku11, you said "

Let's be honest here the only reason Penny started drinking more or she even got herself into that position with Raj is because she broke up with Leonard that is it. Defining a drinking problem based on her getting drunk and making stupid decisions by sleeping with Raj or in general any guy, because her judgement was impaired does not = Drinking Problem. As we have seen it is NOT a regular occurance, she wasen't drunk the entire relationship lol, it is just when she is socialising or particualarly in S4 she drank a bit to deal with her emotions, people do it all the time, some people bing eat to deal with their emotions, does it mean they have a eating problem? Yes but in this instance if you look at S4 most of the drinking was done with Bernadette and Amy. All I'm saying is I don't agree that Penny drinking too much and sleeping a guy equates to a drinking problem, it equates to the circumstances, as under normal circumstances it would of never happened, not once did Penny cheat on Leonard nor does it sound like she cheated on any guy in any of her relationships, usually the other way around. I just think this drinking issue came from S4 really, she drank a bit more in S4, but other then that season I don't see any other evidence to suggest she ever had a problem. The Drinking part is the drinking, the actions of the Drinking is the Drinking it has nothing to do with the actions that follow, Drinking alot and sleeping with a guy and regretting it later on is one thing, but it does = Drinking Problem. Drinking and having Vodka with your cereal now that's a drinking problem! Lol but Penny never did that. All I am saying is give her the benefit of the doubt, she has made mistakes learnt from then, since S4 her drinking has been diminished alot, and is more refined to just a couple of wines at Dinner. She has colourful past with relationships, but that more has to do with her social makeup, and who she is as a person and her peers at that time, since meeting Leonard and the guys, even since the pilot the type of people who came to her parties you could, she is very sociable. Penny has never made no secrets about her past relationships, or the fact she has been very sexually active in them, I just don't agree that being drunk and sleeping with someone means you have a drinking problem, even Bernadette said she would do the same because it would be fun, but Penny has grown up and realized it is not always the best thing.

 

I guess this is where we disagree.  I believe that Penny consistently making choices while drunk that she wouldn't make sober, and the fact that she repeats this behavior, equals a drinking problem.  You may think it was only a few times, but when you consider how many times we actually see these characters...it is not like we are getting their whole lives but rather just a small snapshot, I think it is a lot.  You also have to take into account that her character has also had these issues previously.  Just because they happened off camera or before the start of the series doesn't mean they are not part of who the character is.  Maybe I am not being clear enough I don't know, but I have never said that Penny wouldn't be a sexual person without the alcohol.  Of course she is, we've seen it in her relationship with Leonard and there is nothing wrong with her being a sexual person.  Also, I am not implying that sleeping with someone while drunk is what makes her problem.  I'm not.  I'm saying that sleeping with someone while drunk that you would not have chosen to sleep with had you been sober is a problem.  If it had been only once I might agree with you more, but it hasn't been once.  You might not want to count the times with Leonard or the implied instances or her past before the show started, but I take it all into account when assessing what make the character.  As always though, you are right that she no longer has this problem.  She's grown into a more responsible adult who is in total control of her life.  Well as much in control as any of us are anyway.

Edited September 18, 2013 by JonRS92

[3ku11]

Yeah but your implying every relationship she has been in all every guy she has decided to be with she has been under the influence of alcahol which is just not true, a few time's she slept with guys under alcahol, but most her relationships she was sober and made decisions based on being sober, only a few times she made poor decisions being drunk. For the record it only happened once with Raj from what I saw, in S2 The Barbarian Sublimation she said she hasen't has sex in 6 months, she said the same in S5, I just don't see any evidence to suggest she makes a habit of drinking too much and sleeping with guys and making decisions she woulden't sober JMO.

Edited September 18, 2013 by 3ku11

[Nogravitasatall]

JonRS92,

... and? Yes alcohol may lead to bad decisions, but not all of Penny's decisions have been bad or made after drinking. She doesn't drink at breakfast or miss work or have any health problem so I'd contend she doesn't have a recognisable drinking problem. She may not always have good judgment but she's not Robinson Crusoe there. She may also have enjoyed living an adventurous lifestyle, once upon a time. And that is a choice that any individual may make.

Myself, I'm not too fussed. And Leonard seems not to care too much about all this, and that's who matters. The rest of us are just gossiping, I guess.

[Tensor]

I don't think that anyone is saying that Penny drinks all of the time. the crux of the matter is this: Would you agree or disagree that when Penny drinks too much she becomes more open to sex with people she would not have slept with had she been sober?

And Leonard does also. The ONLY difference between Middle Earth and Maternal Capacitance, is that Leonard was drunk. That's it. You can't argue that he might have thought that she wanted to, because then you have to argue that perhaps Penny wanted to also. There is nothing concrete on either side, as to their thoughts.

 

Arguing that this happens to everyone really doesn't excuse the behavior.

No, but it makes pointing it out for Penny specifically, while ignoring or trying to mitigate the behavior in others, makes it appear as it only bothers you when it's Penny.

 

Now I acknowledge that we do not see it very much. A lot of her character you have to infer from conversations and her own comments about her behavior. In seasons 1-3, as I have posted many times, Penny three sexual choices while under the influence of a lot of alcohol. Yes, they were all with Leonard but that doesn't matter. In season 1, she came on to Leonard after the Halloween party and while he wanted to sleep with her, even he knew she didn't really want to do it. In season 2, both of them get drunk and end up in bed. This time the dynamic has changed and it seems more consensual.

But at that point NEITHER one had said anything openly. And after Penny shut down the relationship, after one date, would seem like a huge indication she didn't want to have sex with Leonard. Yes, that may sound as if it supports your idea. But it destroys your contention that Leonard thought she wanted to have sex with him somehow made it alright for him to continue when he was drunk. So there is no mitigating factor between Middle Earth and Capacitance.

 

It can be argued that Penny was interested in Leonard and was maybe even sexually attracted to him. However, if she really wanted to sleep with him at that point in their relationship, why did she never come on to him while sober?

Why didn't Leonard come on to Penny when he was sober? Sober, Leonard shuts down Penny's advance. Drunk, Leonard accepts Penny's advance. See this is what I mean about double standard. You're saying Penny acts slutty when she drinks, but Leonard also acts slutty when he drinks.

 

As for the season 3 indecent after the break up, it amazes me that most who argue that this was no big deal completely ignore the fallout after where Leonard thought they were getting back to together and was devastated that Penny never had any intention of that. In the morning after we see an embarrassed Penny who regrets what she had done. I agree with you that Penny has learned from her mistakes, but I do not believe that this is what made her bond with Leonard stronger. At least not the lessons from her sexual mistakes.

So, what about The Love Car Displacement? Penny offers sex to sleep Leonard, sober. but they end up not sleeping together(but there was intent, and you say intent matters) and Leonard thought they were getting back together. Everything was the same, as Lunar Excitation when she was drunk, except Penny hadn't been drinking. She regretted it the next morning except she was angry about it. So Penny made the same decision sober as drunk. Which is antithetical to your argument.

 

 

You are right. Leonard is not innocent and has made his share of mistakes, but no one is saying that Penny is horrible. We may have seen Leonard in bed more but that is only because the story is about him and Sheldon. If you want to look at Penny and Leonard side by side in terms of relationships, both with intercourse and without, it would look like this: Leonard has been with Priya, Dr. Stephanie, Sheldon's doctor friend, Leslie W., Alice, and the old lady donor. Penny has been with Mike, Dave, Stuart, Raj, and Zach. About 6-5 to Leonard which is hardly a runaway.

Actually, she never slept with Stuart(unless you're going to change your definitions again as sex being making out) and for Leonard, you missed Joy. So it 7-4, almost double for Leonard. So when are we going to hear you call Leonard slutty WITHOUT drinking? (Army Girl, I know you object to this, but please PM me before you jump up and down on my head. )

 

 

Again, it does not matter how many times she drinks, the point is what happens when she does and in nearly every case we have seen on screen, it led to or nearly led to a sexual encounter she would have regretted. Does this make her a bad person? No, absolutely not. I think Penny is a wonderful person, especially season 6 Penny.

Nearly every case?. This is similar to your use of "a lot". Do you want to go through and compare the times she was drinking and didn't have sex? Off the top of my head, Twister, no sex. Out with Beverly, no sex. Drinking at the Pub("The Ornithophobia Diffusion") no sex, The Weekend Vortex, no sex, the Santa Simulation, no sex. Out with the girls at a club, no sex(with Sheldon). There's seven off the top of my head. Nearly double the number that led to sex. That's pretty far away from nearly every case(specifically, its 63% of the time that doesn't lead to a sexual decision). And, I'm really interested in your explanation as to the difference for her making the same decision drunk (Lunar Excitation) and sober, (Love Car) leading to her hurting Leonard.

 

Ok, there was a lot in there and I hope I didn't screw up any thoughts or facts.

You know I'm gonna catch some.

[Chiara]

That's a pretty cold statement given that we know that Leonard never wanted to break up with Penny, nor did he ever stop loving her. While I would agree that he has no right to say anything to Penny, he has every right to have feelings. He wouldn't be human if a scenario you described happened and he didn't have feelings about it. I would also say that he loved Penny even while with Priya so while he can't say anything about it as they are split, it is going to affect him.

I am not challenging his right to have feelings (perhaps I should have phrased my answer more carefully) but the impact said feelings could/should have on Penny's behaviour if/when they are not in a relationship. 

 

I said she could sleep with the whole CalTech faculty and it would be no one's business but her own. You asked "what about Leonard's feelings ?". My answer is "what about them ?". He is allowed to have them but Penny is equally allowed not to imagine what they could be and take them into account; she has not duty to care for his emotional wellfare unless they are an item. 

 

It may be harsh and for that I apologise but I believe it to be the truth. If one were to care for other people's feelings all the time, one might as well stand still. 

 

First, the "hurt" Leonard may have given Penny is completely different than getting drunk and shacking up with your ex's best friend.

To be fair, Raj is not Leonard's best friend. Sheldon is. 

 

Raj is the friend whose sister Leonard shackep up with in his bed...

 

Let's also reevaluate the break up. Did Penny break up with him because of his pressure or because of her own fear of commitment? I think you could argue either. I see both sides at fault there.

 Penny broke up with him because she did not want to lead him on. At the time, she did not know for sure she would ever be able to love Leonard as much as he loved her and did not wish to give him false hope by dragging the whole thing on. 

 

I absolutely agree that both had a hand in the breakup and that both messed up. However, to say that to be backed into a corner and made to feel like a heartless b*tch for not returning an ILY is not as hurtful as to know your ex and one of your friends had sex is inaccurate, I believe.

 

Her first reaction to waking up with Raj was instant remorse. At that point she didn't think the others would find out. So her regret at maybe ruining her friends came later. Her first thoughts were disgust at having slept with a guy she didn't want to sleep with in the first place.

Of course she regretted sleeping with Raj. Just like she would have regretted waking up next to any man on that morning. But her regret was amplified by the fact that she knew 1) Raj would get the wrong idea and believe them to be in a relationship; 2) the others would eventually find out (they always do); and 3) it could jeopardise the group as an entity. 

The sex itself accounted for only a small part in her regret, I sense.

 

Yes, she jokes about her past, including sexual experiences, but I don't think you can automatically say that means she is proud of them all. There are other reasons why she might joke or brag about them. Also, She nitpicks herself about what actions she regrets. It is almost always her sexual encounters she had while drunk or with guys who were jerks. I think she's shown to be more upset about that than you are. Which is fine by the way, but you seem to me to transfer your apathy at her behavior over onto her whereas I see a Penny who is very conscious of her faults and wants to correct them.

 I do not believe my reaction to be apathetic. I merely find it difficult to turn small incidents into symptoms of a greater pathology.

 

Penny, in my opinion, does not nitpick the events she regrets the most; she chooses to mention those that are "appropriate" given the conversation. If the exchange is playful, she mentions the fun she had doing some naughty things. If the interaction has an "educational", "cautionary" bend, she refers to experiences she came to regret. 

One type of allusions is not more frequent than the other.

 

This topic was about Penny's drinking. Even if every other character was out making poor sexual choices while drunk, it would not change my opinion of Penny's actions, or theirs, one bit. I also think that Penny is aware of what happens to her when she gets drunk. So she either didn't care (which I do not believe) or she had a small problem. Why shouldn't she try and fix a problem that she has that has led to some meaningful regrets. Just because they are a part of life doesn't mean you shouldn't try and eliminate them.  And she did fix that problem.

My point is that Penny has never had a problem. 

 

After she slept with Raj, she hit rock bottom in a way. She feared she had driven a wedge between Leonard and his friend and fretted over her position within the gang. She even thought of leaving California, so convinced was she that she would not be accepted by the group anymore. So she revisited her past through that prism of sadness and self-deprecation and decided she had a problem...

The same thing often happens after a breakup : one always remembers all the separations that came before the latest one and wonders "What is wrong with me?". The answer is, most likely, nothing at all. Things simply did not work out as one had hoped. There is no need to overimpose some imaginary pattern.

 

As for Penny, the moment Leonard assured her that he would always be her friend (and so would the others) and that she did not have to leave because of what had happened with Raj, she was back to her good ol', happy self. Whatever epiphany she believed she had had failed to shake her to her core for any length of time.

 

Can you give more examples to illustrate your point? Other than regretting being a bully when younger and the Leonard break up, I can't remember a regret she had that didn't have to do with sex or alcohol.

Since the thread is about Penny's sexual behaviour while under the influence of the sweet nectar (sex and alcohol, not so much sex or alcohol), I have a 100% drunken coitus-free list of Penny's regrets :

- her relationship with Kurt (the whole relationship, not just the sex);

- her relationship with Mike (same thing);

- her relationship with David (ditto);

- the lies she told her dad about getting back together with Leonard;

- the hurt she caused Howard when she yelled at him (after his "doable" comment);

- her failure to invite Amy on her shopping trip with Bernadette;

- her decision to move to Los Angeles to become an actress (briefly);

- the pain she caused Leonard when she insulted him over the time machine he and Sheldon had bought;

- the insults she threw at Leonard in The Ornithophobia Diffusion; 

- etc.

 

As I see them, most of Penny's regrets do not involve a heady blend of sex and alcohol. 

 

Chiara you said, "I am a woman and I do not give a flying fig about Penny's sex life and/or drunk behaviour. Or Leonard's. Or Howard's. Or Raj's. Or Sheldon's. Or Amy's. Or Bernadette's. Or Mae West's. Or Victor Hugo's. Or my neighbour's.

As long as they do not harm anyone, I consider it none of my business.

I cannot wait to find out what "kind of females" that makes me."

 

It doesn't make you anything.  Your opinion is your own.

I was merely curious since you refered to the "kind of females" who would not feel comfortable calling a fellow woman a "slut". I simply wanted to find out whether said "kind" had a name, since I am one of them.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Chiara

[3ku11]

Lol come on are we really keeping score 6-5 in terms of who has slept with the most ppl? They are both adults so they are both aware of their former relationships, despite all this Penny choose Leonard and Leonard choose Penny. Besides who Penny and Leonard have been with in the past is no one's buisness, and has nothing to do with their relationship. Yes Penny never slept with Stuart they never got that far initially thanks to Sheldon, but later on she said Leonard's name while with Stuart. Penny is self indepedent and respects herself, you make it sound like shes easy lol she only dates a guy based on a mutual attraction, if she really was you would think Howard would have a shot. No ones saying she hasent made bad decisions with men when drunk, but the number and the amount of times it has occured is no where near what ur implying, and she def does not have a drinking problem lol Jmo.

[Zhalen565]

Don't forget she was seen with Doug and Erik

Edited September 18, 2013 by Zhalen565

[Tensor]

Don't forget she was seen with Doug and Erik

And we know from Sheldon about Joyce Kim, and he French PhD student. Wasn't it Eric that Penny left outside her door after Leslie. left? I don't honk we have enough info on those four to say for sure.

[3ku11]

Yeah she never slept with Eric they went out once but that was just Leonard and Penny trying to make each other jealous. Penny fell for guys who mistreated her because subconciousley she was scared of a real relationship, remember Leonard slept with that women who was giving funds to their university, Penny was laughing at Leonard "The walk of shame" haha. So yes Penny at times under the influence slept with guys she woulden't normally, but other then Raj theirs no real proof to suggest theirs a real problem or its a regular occurance. In S4 she drank alot more as she was depressed; No Leonard, Acting Career going no where, non existent dating life e.t.c. She had support from Bernadette and Amy but she was starting to come to terms with how much Leonard means to her, and someone else had him. Point is other then Raj Penny diddn't date at all, she went out tons of times with the girls, not once did she make a bad decision or did she do something stupid like sleeping with some random guy or someone she has no feelings for, she even told Bernadette going out and taking home a guy can make you feel really horrible as a consequence. And since 4x24 Penny diddn't date at all, hence when Sheldon's mother visited and asked how she was dealing with Leonard and Priya, she revealed she hasent dated in months. So while in the past she has on occasion made decisions she woulden't under normal circumstances if alcahol wasen't present hence Raj, she has no where near done it on a regular occurance, and nor does it mean shes ever had a drinking problem, 90% of her relationships with the type of guy she used to date dumb gym guys up to Leonard she made decisions sober and most of her references in conversations eluding to her discrections with guy's either drunk or sober, were with guys in those relationships, this reflects more of Penny's personality and her demeanor then her making different decisions in terms of sleeping with every guy which is not true when she is drunk. But 10% of the time she has made poor decisions with guys while drunk either when she was young before the pilot, or under extremley unique circumstances hence being in a dark place emotionally, and Raj being lonely and that happened once in seven seasons, so of course Penny made a decision with Raj she wouldent normally sober. But since S5 and reconciling with Leonard her drinking is now more refined to a couple of wines at dinner, she has matured alot and has become alot more sophisticated and domesticated, she is now no longer hulking out with Leonard and pushing him away, and Leonard is being more self assured with Penny no longer submissive in his behaviour, Penny complained in the past that Leonard can be a wuss lol but he is now being more forward with Penny and honest and because of this Penny is starting to trust Leonard more so their is more compromise their now, hence why they are now complimenting each other..

Edited September 18, 2013 by 3ku11

[Nogravitasatall]

I'm amusing myself by picturing Penny's response to Leonard's question (that will likely never be asked) about her "number". I'm sure it would be delivered with a steady gaze, a light hand on his arm, at a measured cadence and will include the word "sweetie". And he will swallow, realise he has a dry throat... and reach for a glass with a slightly shaky hand, then count his blessings.

[djsurrey]

Binge drinking has been shown to be far more harmful than once believed. On the surface it may look funny and be good for a laugh. The health and social consequences are not so funny in reality.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130423161905.htm

 

(added in edit)

Drinking And Abuse

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080208153624.htm

 

"The significant predictors of sexual victimization were psychological symptoms during the first year at college, number of consensual sexual partners and increased drinking. Women who have more consensual sexual partners are more likely to encounter a sexually aggressive individual and are more likely to experience sexual victimization. At the same time, women who increased their drinking are more likely to be behaviorally and cognitively impaired and less likely to recognize, avoid or defend against sexual aggression. "

Edited September 18, 2013 by djsurrey

[JonRS92]

So much to reply to but I have work. Will fit it all in when I can. Great points by all though.

[JonRS92]

And Leonard does also. The ONLY difference between Middle Earth and Maternal Capacitance, is that Leonard was drunk. That's it. You can't argue that he might have thought that she wanted to, because then you have to argue that perhaps Penny wanted to also. There is nothing concrete on either side, as to their thoughts.

Edited September 18, 2013 by JonRS92

[JonRS92]

Lol come on are we really keeping score 6-5 in terms of who has slept with the most ppl? They are both adults so they are both aware of their former relationships, despite all this Penny choose Leonard and Leonard choose Penny. Besides who Penny and Leonard have been with in the past is no one's buisness, and has nothing to do with their relationship. Yes Penny never slept with Stuart they never got that far initially thanks to Sheldon, but later on she said Leonard's name while with Stuart. Penny is self indepedent and respects herself, you make it sound like shes easy lol she only dates a guy based on a mutual attraction, if she really was you would think Howard would have a shot. No ones saying she hasent made bad decisions with men when drunk, but the number and the amount of times it has occured is no where near what ur implying, and she def does not have a drinking problem lol Jmo.

 Trust me, I did not want to get into a numbers game, but it seems a few people who think Penny was ok, keep throwing out Leonard and how he has been with way more partners than Penny.  Not only was that inaccurate but irrelevent.  Also, I never meant to imply that Penny is easy.  Drunk Penny maybe is easier than sober Penny, but I never meant to imply Penny is easy.  I am curious as to why you think the number of times I am implying is so far off.  Once a year through season 4 all stemming from alcohol seems like a lot to me.  And those were just on-screen incidents.  Maybe it is not to you.  That's cool though, you are entited to that opinion.

 

I guess I have to reply to the bottom quote up here.  First, I will say again that I am not in any way implying that Penny is an alcoholic or sleeps with guys everytime she gets drunk.  Nor am I implying that she regrets every guy she slept with while drunk.  Even with that taken into consideration, there has been a small pattern within a short period of time of making the same mistake multiple times.  I'm not going to refute anything you said about incidents from season 5 on.  I agree with all of that.  What strikes me though is that you acknowledge that prior to that Penny had a different lifestyle.  You seem to admit that she made poor decisions while drunk yet the only one you seem concerned about is the one with Raj.  You say that she was in a dark place and I agree with that.  But how does that excuse such a big mistake?  Penny herself admits to acting the whore as she called it.  If there was no problem, as you assert, then why do you say she hit rock bottom?  Why do you admit that the drinking habits have changed?  If there was no problem then I see no reason for her drinking behavior to have changed.  Keep in mind that as I see it maturity and age do not necessarily indicate a decrease in drinking.  She changed because there was a problem and she saw it and fixed it.

 

Yeah she never slept with Eric they went out once but that was just Leonard and Penny trying to make each other jealous. Penny fell for guys who mistreated her because subconciousley she was scared of a real relationship, remember Leonard slept with that women who was giving funds to their university, Penny was laughing at Leonard "The walk of shame" haha. So yes Penny at times under the influence slept with guys she woulden't normally, but other then Raj theirs no real proof to suggest theirs a real problem or its a regular occurance. In S4 she drank alot more as she was depressed; No Leonard, Acting Career going no where, non existent dating life e.t.c. She had support from Bernadette and Amy but she was starting to come to terms with how much Leonard means to her, and someone else had him. Point is other then Raj Penny diddn't date at all, she went out tons of times with the girls, not once did she make a bad decision or did she do something stupid like sleeping with some random guy or someone she has no feelings for, she even told Bernadette going out and taking home a guy can make you feel really horrible as a consequence. And since 4x24 Penny diddn't date at all, hence when Sheldon's mother visited and asked how she was dealing with Leonard and Priya, she revealed she hasent dated in months. So while in the past she has on occasion made decisions she woulden't under normal circumstances if alcahol wasen't present hence Raj, she has no where near done it on a regular occurance, and nor does it mean shes ever had a drinking problem, 90% of her relationships with the type of guy she used to date dumb gym guys up to Leonard she made decisions sober and most of her references in conversations eluding to her discrections with guy's either drunk or sober, were with guys in those relationships, this reflects more of Penny's personality and her demeanor then her making different decisions in terms of sleeping with every guy which is not true when she is drunk. But 10% of the time she has made poor decisions with guys while drunk either when she was young before the pilot, or under extremley unique circumstances hence being in a dark place emotionally, and Raj being lonely and that happened once in seven seasons, so of course Penny made a decision with Raj she wouldent normally sober. But since S5 and reconciling with Leonard her drinking is now more refined to a couple of wines at dinner, she has matured alot and has become alot more sophisticated and domesticated, she is now no longer hulking out with Leonard and pushing him away, and Leonard is being more self assured with Penny no longer submissive in his behaviour, Penny complained in the past that Leonard can be a wuss lol but he is now being more forward with Penny and honest and because of this Penny is starting to trust Leonard more so their is more compromise their now, hence why they are now complimenting each other..

Edited September 18, 2013 by JonRS92

[JonRS92]

I am not challenging his right to have feelings (perhaps I should have phrased my answer more carefully) but the impact said feelings could/should have on Penny's behaviour if/when they are not in a relationship. 

 

I said she could sleep with the whole CalTech faculty and it would be no one's business but her own. You asked "what about Leonard's feelings ?". My answer is "what about them ?". He is allowed to have them but Penny is equally allowed not to imagine what they could be and take them into account; she has not duty to care for his emotional wellfare unless they are an item. 

 

It may be harsh and for that I apologise but I believe it to be the truth. If one were to care for other people's feelings all the time, one might as well stand still.

Under normal circumstances I would agree. However, as the audience we know that no matter what those two are doing while apart, we know they still love each other. It is hard not to take that into account when assessing their actions. 

 

To be fair, Raj is not Leonard's best friend. Sheldon is. 

 

Raj is the friend whose sister Leonard shackep up with in his bed...

Leonard used the tern best friend when he confronted Penny about it in the Recombination episode. Also, Leonard and Priya wasn't a drunken hook-up like Raj and Penny. To me that makes a difference.

 

Penny broke up with him because she did not want to lead him on. At the time, she did not know for sure she would ever be able to love Leonard as much as he loved her and did not wish to give him false hope by dragging the whole thing on.

Agreed 

 

I absolutely agree that both had a hand in the breakup and that both messed up. However, to say that to be backed into a corner and made to feel like a heartless b*tch for not returning an ILY is not as hurtful as to know your ex and one of your friends had sex is inaccurate, I believe.

I accept your feelings on this even if I disagree. I am not quite arrogant enough to tell you what your priorities should be or how to feel.

 

Of course she regretted sleeping with Raj. Just like she would have regretted waking up next to any man on that morning. But her regret was amplified by the fact that she knew 1) Raj would get the wrong idea and believe them to be in a relationship; 2) the others would eventually find out (they always do); and 3) it could jeopardise the group as an entity. 

The sex itself accounted for only a small part in her regret, I sense.

I agree that she would have felt the same no matter who she woke up with. I don't agree that the sex was a secondary regret. As I see it, she was prepared to deny the whole thing ever happened with the intent that the gang never find out. You say that she knew the others would eventually find out, but if that were true then why did she agree to lie in reverse and keep up the charade that they really did have sex? Shouldn't she be afraid for that to come out as well? Of course you could argue that she did indeed know that and wants it to come out since it might make Leonard feel better. But we are just guessing there.

 

I do not believe my reaction to be apathetic. I merely find it difficult to turn small incidents into symptoms of a greater pathology.

With a TV show, small incidents and few experiences are all we have to work with when determining what a character is like. Again, your opinion on that is fine, but I would point out that Penny herself admitted to the problem in episdoe 5.1 after Raj.

 

Penny, in my opinion, does not nitpick the events she regrets the most; she chooses to mention those that are "appropriate" given the conversation. If the exchange is playful, she mentions the fun she had doing some naughty things. If the interaction has an "educational", "cautionary" bend, she refers to experiences she came to regret. 

One type of allusions is not more frequent than the other.

I think we kind of agree on this one. My original comment was only meant to point out that, like Penny, I am picking out the incidents that are appropriate to the conversation. Maybe nitpick is not the right word to use here.

 

My point is that Penny has never had a problem. 

 

After she slept with Raj, she hit rock bottom in a way. She feared she had driven a wedge between Leonard and his friend and fretted over her position within the gang. She even thought of leaving California, so convinced was she that she would not be accepted by the group anymore. So she revisited her past through that prism of sadness and self-deprecation and decided she had a problem...

The same thing often happens after a breakup : one always remembers all the separations that came before the latest one and wonders "What is wrong with me?". The answer is, most likely, nothing at all. Things simply did not work out as one had hoped. There is no need to overimpose some imaginary pattern.

As for this topic I would refer you to my conversations with 3k. You say that there is no problem but admit that Penny felt there was a problem and that she addressed it. Since Raj there have been no more drunken hook-ups. If we were talking about an isolated incident that I think your point is valid. But we are not talking about an isolated incident. We can debate all day about whether these incidents mean what we say they mean or whther or not they are frequent enough to constitute a problem in our own minds. To Penny, they were a problem. Were all of her drunken hook-ups regrets? Doubtful, but the ones that were clearly bothered her. They bothered her to the point where she stopped it entirely and changed her life. Now there are some who would agree with Penny that she had a problem (as I do) and those who would tell her she was fine (as I am sure you would). In the end it is her opinion of herself that matters most. Maybe in the beginning she thought like you do, that there was no problem, but after Raj that all changed.

 

As for Penny, the moment Leonard assured her that he would always be her friend (and so would the others) and that she did not have to leave because of what had happened with Raj, she was back to her good ol', happy self. Whatever epiphany she believed she had had failed to shake her to her core for any length of time.

That was not how I read that scene. I am not even convinved she was listening to Leonard. She changed her mind when she got the commercial job.

 

Since the thread is about Penny's sexual behaviour while under the influence of the sweet nectar (sex and alcohol, not so much sex or alcohol), I have a 100% drunken coitus-free list of Penny's regrets :

- her relationship with Kurt (the whole relationship, not just the sex);

- her relationship with Mike (same thing);

- her relationship with David (ditto);

- the lies she told her dad about getting back together with Leonard;

- the hurt she caused Howard when she yelled at him (after his "doable" comment);

- her failure to invite Amy on her shopping trip with Bernadette;

- her decision to move to Los Angeles to become an actress (briefly);

- the pain she caused Leonard when she insulted him over the time machine he and Sheldon had bought;

- the insults she threw at Leonard in The Ornithophobia Diffusion; 

- etc.

 

As I see them, most of Penny's regrets do not involve a heady blend of sex and alcohol. 

 

I was merely curious since you refered to the "kind of females" who would not feel comfortable calling a fellow woman a "slut". I simply wanted to find out whether said "kind" had a name, since I am one of them.

Perfectly valid, but I am not here trying to argue for all of Penny's regrets nor to infer that all of her regrets center on alcohol. I may have actually said that in an earlier post, but if I did then I wasn't thinking properly. The point has always been the regrets she had from drinking too much and whether or not that constituted a problem.

Edited September 18, 2013 by JonRS92

[JonRS92]

During a break today I went back and reread this discussion and I find it kind of interesting how my original point in this thread seemed to balloon out way more than I intended.  Basically I got in trouble for two things: calling Penny's behavior slutty (very poor wording at first though, I will admit) and saying Penny drank a lot.  Other points may have come out since then in terms of sex and regret. but those first two comments got me in trouble first   While I still believe both and have written God knows how many words on this, I still believe at my core that the writers never intended Penny to be any of this.  Penny was never meant to appear slutty, never meant to appear to have any kind of drinking issue.  I still believe the drinking was for humor and plot movement and that it backfired in the season 4 finale.  It is amazing to me the discussion that has come out of this.

[Disgusted]

, I still believe at my core that the writers never intended Penny to be any of this.  Penny was never meant to appear slutty, never meant to appear to have any kind of drinking issue.  I still believe the drinking was for humor and plot movement and that it backfired in the season 4 finale.  It is amazing to me the discussion that has come out of this.

 

Hmmm, I think you might need to see the "original" original pilot episode, that is lurking about on the internet. Chuck did indeed want just what you are describing. The reason this discussion has such legs after all this time is the fear that he will steer the show in that direction again.

[JonRS92]

Hmmm, I think you might need to see the "original" original pilot episode, that is lurking about on the internet. Chuck did indeed want just what you are describing. The reason this discussion has such legs after all this time is the fear that he will steer the show in that direction again.

I was not aware of that.  That does explain a lot.  You'd think he would have either abandoned it entirely (Penny can still be Penny without the hints of that) or come out and dealt with it.  As I said in my very first post in this thread, if it was intended to be as it appeared, they were very, very subtle in doing it.  So subtle in fact that I can see it leading to the discussion we've just been having where you can make good arguments on both sides.  And I, too, hope he doesn't move back in that original direction.

[3ku11]

I never said nor do I think anyone ever excused Penny sleeping with Raj, it was obviousley was one of the worst things she ever did, and even from a writers standpoint. The point I was trying to make is all this is circumstancial, the point your trying to make is Penny's behaviour fluctate's between her ability to make decisions when under the influence of alcahol, and while I agree with this on some level, this is not the case as you even eluded to every time. I am sure in her younger days Penny had got drunk and slept with guys she either was dating presently at that point in her life, or she was having fun in her younger years say like 19-21, even go back to S3 when Leonard was telling Penny the story how he first met Sheldon, and you saw a flashback of Penny and her boyfriend and she had a pregnancy scare, "Yes! not pregnant" haha, loved that scene Kaley was so natural in that scene lol. I've always thought Penny is an older version of Bridget from 8 Simple Rules . So this show's Penny had a very adventorous and colorful past with her relationship's and guys she has been with. It was a phase in her life when she was young maybe at times made decisions she shoulden't of, if that related to her sexual history, or when she was a bully in HS e.tc. She even in S5 called all the ppl she bullied in HS to apoligize. So my point is when Penny brings up her sexual past and history with her past relationships, it is more 1. From the writers POV living vicarousley through Penny and using it for comedic value and 2. Penny clearly making fun of herself as she know's she has been adventrous and colourful with the guys she has dated in the past, but at the same time now showing remorse and repenting seeing she is now older and is growing up. So I'm not disagreeing with you Penny at times over the years in her life has made decisions drunk that she woulden't normally sober, but she's human the writers never claimed her to be perfect, just from my vantage point other then Raj since the pilot, Penny had been very promiscious with only the guys she was presently dating.

 

Like Mike in S1 blogged about their sex life, they did it Parks, Subways, Train Stations lol, that was the kinda person Penny was back then, and that was the type of guy she used to date and that is the way she was in those relationships. As Penny dated these type of guys because subconciousley she was scared of a real relationship, so obviousley Sex and a External Attraction was the basis of her relationships, Leonard was the first guy she initially started dating that she saw what was inside of him, opposed to how many muscles he had, or how many cars he had e.t.c. Penny's father really shed some light on her relationship history and the amount of guys she dated, they sounded like real loosers.

 

Leonard in a way is Penny's prince, the Queen who is a Queen in so many ways, but ends up getting mistreated by guys who promise her everything, even go back to S2 when Penny dated David Underhill and Stuart, I do agree she came across a tad hypocritical in those situations, I mean she diddn't want to date Leonard because she felt she wasen't smart enough for him, but she had no problem dating Stuart or DU who basically is a cross between the gym guy's she used to date and Leonard TBH lol, but at the same time give her the benefit of the doubt she never meant to hurt Leonard or send any kind of specific message, I am sure up to dating Leonard in S3 the other guys she dated or who she was attracted to were not based on how similar they were to Leonard, that was prob the point also the reason why Leonard dated Stephanie. Obviousley Penny and Stuart diddn't get to far, their first date was blocked by Sheldon lol, and obviousley Penny ended up saying Leonard's name while she was with Stuart. But at the point Penny and Leonard had every right to date whoever they wanted they had no real obligation to each other at that point.  So more then saying Penny is slutty in her behaviour when get's drunk, 10 % of the her life she has slept with guys when she is drunk, 90 % of the time she has been naive to think these guys well treat her right, when ultimately they never do. This is why after Leonard and Penny broke up Penny reverted back to her normal pre-disposition of dating dumb guys again, it was familiar and she felt she needed to start functioning normally again, basically doing what she has always done after a break up, drink some Egg Nog/Vodka, wake up with a hangover, and move on. But the thing is Leonard wasen't just her normal casual/gym guy fling, Leonard was the first guy who represented a change in her life, it was actually a real relationship. Just at that point in her life she felt she wasen't ready for the commitment and love Leonard was looking for, she knows that he has been looking for approval from women all his life thanks to his mother, she obviousley knew their was a big chance at that point she may never love Leonard, so in his best interest she ended things, and TBH she had every right to do so Penny wasen't ready so Leonard backed off, even Leonard agreed with this later on in S4 when they went on that road trip, when they nearly reconciled. 

 

So the whole thing with Penny showing up to Leonard's drunk and blaming him for her now non existent lack of intolerance of dumb guys, was a natural response to no longer reverting back to her old ways, in a messed up way it was kinda sweet that she blamed Leonard for this, so she sleeped with Leonard, and really regretted it in the morning. Even fast forward to Season 4, Penny, Amy, and Bernadette were getting ready to go out, Penny wanted to stay in intially. And remember Berndatte was going on about how fun it would be to take a guy home and send him on his way lol, Penny was really matured and probably experienced in her response haha "Yeah but it's not always the best thing, you end up feeling horrible in the morning" Funny thing is Bernadette is the one who ended up coming across un-evolved, "I would take that deal any day of the week". This showed to me that Penny has made alot of mistakes in her life sober and drunk, and has now learnt from them and is showing repentance, and remorse.

 

I remember Leonard tried to do the same thing with Leslie, then showed up drunk to Penny's and she kicked him out lol, Leonard was like "I think theirs definately a double standard their". Kaley and Johnny were in a inteview and Kaley even said in response to that scene and Penny "Yeah she really needs to grow up", I think Kaley and Johnny really care about Leonard and Penny. So know one is excusing what Penny did their it was stupid, but she was drunk and made a bad decision, were in argeement Penny has on odd occasion slept with a guy or done something stupid she woulden't normally sober. But most of her indiscrections were done before the pilot, and most of her relationships with guys prior to dating Leonard S1-S2 were just with those guys, they ended and she moved on. Ever since S2 though you saw alot of change in how Penny was self actulziing her life.

 

I think though in S4 she was really depressed and her alcahol intake really increased, but after what happened in 4x24, Penny really got a wake up call and realized her intake of alcahol needed to decrease, since then her drinking and as a result her behaviour has changed, she usually refines it to a couple of wines at dinner. And TBH other then Leonard and Raj, post Season 3 Penny has not slept with a single guy sober or drunk, and since Season 5 Leonard and Penny and both grown in their relationship, and their is now alot more compromise. But not once did I ever think she had a drinking problem, as that wasen't the point it was her behaviour through the circumstances that caused the drinking to influence her behaviour, now that the drinking is more refined it's not an issue anymore.

Edited September 19, 2013 by 3ku11

[JonRS92]

I never said nor do I think anyone ever excused Penny sleeping with Raj, it was obviousley was one of the worst things she ever did, and even from a writers standpoint. The point I was trying to make is all this is circumstancial, the point your trying to make is Penny's behaviour fluctate's between her ability to make decisions when under the influence of alcahol, and while I agree with this on some level, this is not the case as you even eluded to every time. I am sure in her younger days Penny had got drunk and slept with guys she either was dating presently at that point in her life, or she was having fun in her younger years say like 19-21, even go back to S3 when Leonard was telling Penny the story how he first met Sheldon, and you saw a flashback of Penny and her boyfriend and she had a pregnancy scare, "Yes! not pregnant" haha, loved that scene Kaley was so natural in that scene lol. I've always thought Penny is an older version of Bridget from 8 Simple Rules . So this show's Penny had a very adventorous and colorful past with her relationship's and guys she has been with. It was a phase in her life when she was young maybe at times made decisions she shoulden't of, if that related to her sexual history, or when she was a bully in HS e.tc. She even in S5 called all the ppl she bullied in HS to apoligize. So my point is when Penny brings up her sexual past and history with her past relationships, it is more 1. From the writers POV living vicarousley through Penny and using it for comedic value and 2. Penny clearly making fun of herself as she know's she has been adventrous and colourful with the guys she has dated in the past, but at the same time now showing remorse and repenting seeing she is now older and is growing up. So I'm not disagreeing with you Penny at times over the years in her life has made decisions drunk that she woulden't normally sober, but she's human the writers never claimed her to be perfect, just from my vantage point other then Raj since the pilot, Penny had been very promiscious with only the guys she was presently dating. Like Mike in S1 blogged about their sex life, they did it Parks, Subways, Train Stations lol, that was the kinda person Penny was back then, and that was the type of guy she used to date and that is the way she was in those relationships. As Penny dated these type of guys because subconciousley she was scared of a real relationship, so obviousley Sex and a External Attraction was the basis of her relationships, Leonard was the first guy she initially started dating that she saw what was inside of him, opposed to how many muscles he had, or how many cars he had e.t.c. Penny's father really shed some light on her relationship history and the amount of guys she dated, they sounded like real loosers. Leonard in a way is Penny's prince, the Queen who is a Queen in so many ways, but ends up getting mistreated by guys who promise her everything, even go back to S2 when Penny dated David Underhill and Stuart, I do agree she came across a tad hypocritical in those situations, I mean she diddn't want to date Leonard because she felt she wasen't smart enough for him, but she had no problem dating Stuart or DU who basically is a cross between the gym guy's she used to date and Leonard TBH lol, but at the same time give her the benefit of the doubt she never meant to hurt Leonard or send any kind of specific message, I am sure up to dating Leonard in S3 the other guys she dated or who she was attracted to were not based on how similar they were to Leonard, that was prob the point also the reason why Leonard dated Stephanie. Obviousley Penny and Stuart diddn't get to far, their first date was blocked by Sheldon lol, and obviousley Penny ended up saying Leonard's name while she was with Stuart. But at the point Penny and Leonard had every right to date whoever they wanted they had no real obligation to each other at that point. So more then saying Penny is slutty in her behaviour when get's drunk, 10 % of the her life she has slept with guys when she is drunk, 90 % of the time she has been naive to think these guys well treat her right, when ultimately they never do. This is why after Leonard and Penny broke up Penny reverted back to her normal pre-disposition of dating dumb guys again, it was familiar and she felt she needed to start functioning normally again, basically doing what she has always done after a break up, drink some Egg Nog/Vodka, wake up with a hangover, and move on. But the thing is Leonard wasen't just her normal casual/gym guy fling, Leonard was the first guy who represented a change in her life, it was actually a real relationship. Just at that point in her life she felt she wasen't ready for the commitment and love Leonard was looking for, she knows that he has been looking for approval from women all his life thanks to his mother, she obviousley knew their was a big chance at that point she may never love Leonard, so in his best interest she ended things, and TBH she had every right to do so Penny wasen't ready so Leonard backed off, even Leonard agreed with this later on in S4 when they went on that road trip, when they nearly reconciled. So the whole thing with Penny showing up to Leonard's drunk and blaming him for her now non existent lack of intolerance of dumb guys, was a natural response to no longer reverting back to her old ways, in a messed up way it was kinda sweet that she blamed Leonard for this, so she sleeped with Leonard, and really regretted it in the morning. Even fast forward to Season 4, Penny, Amy, and Bernadette were getting ready to go out, Penny wanted to stay in intially. And remember Berndatte was going on about how fun it would be to take a guy home and send him on his way lol, Penny was really matured and probably experienced in her response haha "Yeah but it's not always the best thing, you end up feeling horrible in the morning" Funny thing is Bernadette is the one who ended up coming across un-evolved, "I would take that deal any day of the week". This showed to me that Penny has made alot of mistakes in her life sober and drunk, and has now learnt from them and is showing repentance, and remorse. I remember Leonard tried to do the same thing with Leslie, then showed up drunk to Penny's and she kicked him out lol, Leonard was like "I think theirs definately a double standard their". Kaley and Johnny were in a inteview and Kaley even said in response to that scene and Penny "Yeah she really needs to grow up", I think Kaley and Johnny really care about Leonard and Penny. So know one is excusing what Penny did their it was stupid, but she was drunk and made a bad decision, were in argeement Penny has on odd occasion slept with a guy or done something stupid she woulden't normally sober. But most of her indiscrections were done before the pilot, and most of her relationships with guys prior to dating Leonard S1-S2 were just with those guys, they ended and she moved on. Ever since S2 though you saw alot of change in how Penny was self actulziing her life. I think though in S4 she was really depressed and her alcahol intake really increased, but after what happened in 4x24, Penny really got a wake up call and realized her intake of alcahol needed to decrease, since then her drinking and as a result her behaviour has changed, she usually refines it to a couple of wines at dinner. And TBH other then Leonard and Raj, post Season 3 Penny has not slept with a single guy sober or drunk, and since Season 5 Leonard and Penny and both grown in their relationship, and their is now alot more compromise. But not once did I ever think she had a drinking problem, as that wasen't the point it was her behaviour through the circumstances that caused the drinking to influence her behaviour, now that the drinking is more refined it's not an issue anymore.

Read all of this and agree with 99% of it. I think you missed just one tiny detail. You said post season 3 Penny slept with no one other than Leonard and almost Raj. I do believe that she alluded to sleeping with Zack. I just mention it for accuracy not to advance any point. TBH after reading your post I'm not sure why we are even disagreeing beyond maybe 2 things. Maybe we can clear those up. Do you feel that the totality of Penny's character (everything we know of her both onscreen and off) shows that she has a pattern of making decisions while drunk that she regrets later and that up to season 4 she was still making them and do you feel that this could be defined as a problem? This is not to say all of her decisions. As I think you noted, I never meant to insinuate that. But whether she had done it enough to warrant taking a look at it and fixing it? Obviously she did just that after Raj. Basically it seems like people disagree with me on one specific point. Were there enough times that Penny got drunk and slept with a guy she wouldn't have and regretted it to say that a small problem exists? Am I wrong in thinking that Penny needed to take a look at her drinking and maybe dial it back a bit? I maintain that if she had done it after the drunken tryst with Leonard in season 3 that, while I agree with you on her rationale, still hurt Leonard deeply. Had she done it then Raj doesn't happen. Or do you argue that Raj had to happen for her to change--that the Leonard incident wasn't enough? Edited September 19, 2013 by JonRS92

[3ku11]

Read all of this and agree with 99% of it. I think you missed just one tiny detail. You said post season 3 Penny slept with no one other than Leonard and almost Raj. I do believe that she alluded to sleeping with Zack. I just mention it for accuracy not to advance any point. TBH after reading your post I'm not sure why we are even disagreeing beyond maybe 2 things. Maybe we can clear those up. Do you feel that the totality of Penny's character (everything we know of her both onscreen and off) shows that she has a pattern of making decisions while drunk that she regrets later and that up to season 4 she was still making them and do you feel that this could be defined as a problem? This is not to say all of her decisions. As I think you noted, I never meant to insinuate that. But whether she had done it enough to warrant taking a look at it and fixing it? Obviously she did just that after Raj. Basically it seems like people disagree with me on one specific point. Were there enough times that Penny got drunk and slept with a guy she wouldn't have and regretted it to say that a small problem exists? Am I wrong in thinking that Penny needed to take a look at her drinking and maybe dial it back a bit? I maintain that if she had done it after the drunken tryst with Leonard in season 3 that, while I agree with you on her rationale, still hurt Leonard deeply. Had she done it then Raj doesn't happen. Or do you argue that Raj had to happen for her to change--that the Leonard incident wasn't enough?

Yeah well what I meant by she reverted back to her typical dumb gym guy after Leonard is Zac, she dated him because she even said to Leonard "I diddn't want to be alone on NYE how pathetic is that". No I don't think she makes a pattern of getting drunk and sleeping with guys, maybe like I said in her young years post the pilot, but alot of times when she wasen't dating Leonard we saw her date alot of other guys and she was sober the whole time, that is what I meant by probably 10 % of her dating life she has slept with guys while drunk Raj included. And while I agree getting drunk and sleeping with Leonard after realizing she is too evolved for a guy like Zack anymore (Penny even said he diddn't challenge her intellectually enough which is really ironical haha), was stupid like I said it derived from a place of familiarity, my point was Penny was not used to dating a guy as great as Leonard, so when she tried to revert back to her old ways she found she coulden't, hence why she ended up getting drunk and did something she later regretted in the morning. Don't forget Leonard did the same thing with that professor chick sober, and he also slept with that women who was giving funds to the university, Leonard was also willing to sleep with Penny the day after drunk, and if Penny let him they would of, but Penny by that point was prob feeling really embarassed so sent Leonard packing. I don't think Penny revaulating her one drunken night with Leonard had any catalyst for her revaulating a change in her life, or her coming to terms or realziing she has a drinking problem, I don't beleive she ever had one, like I said that drinking was conducive to the situation, and the situation influenced her behaviour through that drinking, Penny always had a relationship problem not a drinking one. What caused Raj to happen was she broke up with Leonard, and if Leonard and Priya never started dating she woulden't of been forced to deal with her behaviour through drinking every now and then (for the record the only time's you saw Penny drinking was in social occasions like when she went out with the girls, every time she went out she never got drunk at all, I remember she had a couple of marquritas and that was it), and the fact other then Leonard and Priya, she haden't dated at all that season, her acting career was going no where and combine that with Raj really lonely, mix alcahol in the situation something or someone was bound to do something stupid. So I think in the end no one or nothing specific caused Penny to change the way she was behaving, not Leonard and Priya not her night with Raj, at the end of the day it was up to Penny, and by half way through S5 Leonard and Penny got back together, and like you've said everyone has said her drinking is more refined as it has been to be honest taking out 4x24 since S4 JMO.

Edited September 19, 2013 by 3ku11

[JonRS92]

Yeah well what I meant by she reverted back to her typical dumb gym guy after Leonard is Zac, she dated him because she even said to Leonard "I diddn't want to be alone on NYE how pathetic is that". No I don't think she makes a pattern of getting drunk and sleeping with guys, maybe like I said in her young years post the pilot, but alot of times when she wasen't dating Leonard we saw her date alot of other guys and she was sober the whole time, that is what I meant by probably 10 % of her dating life she has slept with guys while drunk Raj included. And while I agree getting drunk and sleeping with Leonard after realizing she is too evolved for a guy like Zack anymore (Penny even said he diddn't challenge her intellectually enough which is really ironical haha), was stupid like I said it derived from a place of familiarity, my point was Penny was not used to dating a guy as great as Leonard, so when she tried to revert back to her old ways she found she coulden't, hence why she ended up getting drunk and did something she later regretted in the morning. Don't forget Leonard did the same thing with that professor chick sober, and he also slept with that women who was giving funds to the university, Leonard was also willing to sleep with Penny the day after drunk, and if Penny let him they would of, but Penny by that point was prob feeling really embarassed so sent Leonard packing. I don't think Penny revaulating her one drunken night with Leonard had any catalyst for her revaulating a change in her life, or her coming to terms or realziing she has a drinking problem, I don't beleive she ever had one, like I said that drinking was conducive to the situation, and the situation influenced her behaviour through that drinking, Penny always had a relationship problem not a drinking one. What caused Raj to happen was she broke up with Leonard, and if Leonard and Priya never started dating she woulden't of been forced to deal with her behaviour through drinking every now and then (for the record the only time's you saw Penny drinking was in social occasions like when she went out with the girls, every time she went out she never got drunk at all, I remember she had a couple of marquritas and that was it), and the fact other then Leonard and Priya, she haden't dated at all that season, her acting career was going no where and combine that with Raj really lonely, mix alcahol in the situation something or someone was bound to do something stupid. So I think in the end no one or nothing specific caused Penny to change the way she was behaving, not Leonard and Priya not her night with Raj, at the end of the day it was up to Penny, and by half way through S5 Leonard and Penny got back together, and like you've said everyone has said her drinking is more refined as it has been to be honest taking out 4x24 since S4 JMO.

Ok. I get where we disagree now. I would have answered yes to the questions I posed to you. For me, the number of times she would have or did make a regretted choice was enough to make me think "problem". Not a big problem but a small one. And even if you take alcohol out of the equation, Penny should have more respect for herself. She deserved better. As for the raj incident I believe it was a catalyst for her. Her own words describing herself as Dr. Jekyll and Mrs. Hyde after that and the subsequent maturing and decreasing alcohol intake seem to bear that out. We both agree she has changed and I don't think it just occurred in a vacuum. Also, you've convinced me on Leonard. The dude really loves having sex and clearly makes some bad choices to get it. His romp with Sheldon's doctor friend was bad form and hurt Penny. Not cool. Edited September 19, 2013 by JonRS92

[3ku11]

Ok. I get where we disagree now. I would have answered yes to the questions I posed to you. For me, the number of times she would have or did make a regretted choice was enough to make me think "problem". Not a big problem but a small one. And even if you take alcohol out of the equation, Penny should have more respect for herself. She deserved better. As for the raj incident I believe it was a catalyst for her. Her own words describing herself as Dr. Jekyll and Mrs. Hyde after that and the subsequent maturing and decreasing alcohol intake seem to bear that out. We both agree she has changed and I don't think it just occurred in a vacuum. Also, you've convinced me on Leonard. The dude really loves having sex and clearly makes some bad choices to get it. His romp with Sheldon's doctor friend was bad form and hurt Penny. Not cool.

Yeah I agree Penny should of never slept with Leonard so soon after their break up sober or not sober, just as Leonard should of never slept with that slutbunny prof chick, or that women giving funds to the university. But they are both not perfect and have both made mistakes respectively, but like you've said everyone else she has clearly learnt from this, just saying that Sheldon or Howard could of happened with a little alcahol in their system, even Leonard said Sheldon has a better shot then Raj lol. Penny drank way too much she must of been intoxicated which doesen't say much about Raj the fact he has more recollection of the whole thing, but hey it was really settled in the first ep of 5x01 in the end scene Penny apoligsed properly for her actions, had no lasting effect on the characters or Lenny at all and that's the main thing. So I do agree that her night with Raj was a catalyst for change that she may presently been drinking too much over the past few months, but not to the point that she ever made a habit of it, but we agree on almost everything else so its all good.

[JonRS92]

Yeah I agree Penny should of never slept with Leonard so soon after their break up sober or not sober, just as Leonard should of never slept with that slutbunny prof chick, or that women giving funds to the university. But they are both not perfect and have both made mistakes respectively, but like you've said everyone else she has clearly learnt from this, just saying that Sheldon or Howard could of happened with a little alcahol in their system, even Leonard said Sheldon has a better shot then Raj lol. Penny drank way too much she must of been intoxicated which doesen't say much about Raj the fact he has more recollection of the whole thing, but hey it was really settled in the first ep of 5x01 in the end scene Penny apoligsed properly for her actions, had no lasting effect on the characters or Lenny at all and that's the main thing. So I do agree that her night with Raj was a catalyst for change that she may presently been drinking too much over the past few months, but not to the point that she ever made a habit of it, but we agree on almost everything else so its all good.

Agreed the important thing here is that whatever your belief on this is, Penny is in a much better place and is in much better shape now than the end of season 4. Here's to hoping we don't revisit it any time soon.