Character Penny's Drinking Issues

[djsurrey]

You do know these are fictional characters, right? There will only be "consequences if the writers decide to make it that way.

The topic asks if the character has a drinking problem. My comments are in that frame of reference. The topic only makes sense if we use the same logic that would apply if they were real.

[Tensor]

I thought my point was obvious. Penny was not drinking to be social or to just unwind. Penny in this case (and I believe there have been others) was drinking to dull the pain. I was reacting to the statement that she only drinks when the occasion calls for it. One does not want to drink alone to dull the pain.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcoholism/DS00340/DSECTION=symptoms

I beg to differ. I drank heavily, until I returned from a remote assignment, a specific situation and I also drank alone, sitting in my room downing 3-5 scotches( single malt, of course) or wine at night. The drinking continued, the amount did not once I returned. Pretty much like Penny, so I'm not sure where the alcoholic you think you see came from.

[djsurrey]

I think the writers liked to play on the whole Penny drinking thing, the drinking was more an extension of dealing with Leonard and Priya in S4. I think were over-exagerating a tad here, Penny never binged drinked at all, sure she has drunk to dull the pain at times like anyone does. But most of her drinking stopped by S5, but I do agree with most of your opinion, just that by S5 onwards Leonard and Penny have a few wines at dinner and dinner parties, that's about it.

Studies typically use a definition for binge drinking that would include the drinking Penny has done.

Drinking to dull emotional pain is not somthing everyone does. It is a very bad idea since it can trigger depression

From http://www.webmd.com/depression/alcohol-and-depresssion

Experts say that women are more likely than men to self-medicate with alcohol.

Does Alcohol Abuse Lead to Depression?

A number of studies have shown that alcohol abuse increases the risk for depression. This connection may be because of the direct neurotoxic effects of heavy alcohol exposure to the brain. Researchers know that heavy alcohol consumption can lead to periods of depression.[/qoute]

Drunk characters may give some easy laughs but thinking about the negative consequeces of actual real drinking is not so funny.

[Nogravitasatall]

Penny isn't thick around the middle and she seems to eat well, so she is obviously not accumulating the visceral and belly fat that is so deleterious and she is not neglecting a balanced dietary intake. I think you can say she had an emotional problem for which she had been self medicating. I know there is no medically certified safe level of drinking, but I'd think that now her level of risk has WAY diminished. But even mouthwash has been implicated in risk.

[djsurrey]

Penny isn't thick around the middle and she seems to eat well, so she is obviously not accumulating the visceral and belly fat that is so deleterious and she is not neglecting a balanced dietary intake. I think you can say she had an emotional problem for which she had been self medicating. I know there is no medically certified safe level of drinking, but I'd think that now her level of risk has WAY diminished. But even mouthwash has been implicated in risk.

 

I think in my first comment on this topic I pointed out that real binge drinking has consequences that are not so funny.

 

I'd like to refer again to http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130423161905.htm

 

Regularly consuming multiple drinks in a short window of time can cause immediate changes in circulation that increase an otherwise healthy young adult's risk of developing cardiovascular disease later in life, according to research published online today in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology.

"It is important that young adults understand that binge drinking patterns are an extreme form of unhealthy or at-risk drinking and are associated with serious social and medical consequences," Mariann Piano, PhD, RN, co-author of the study and professor and head of the department of biobehavioral health science at the University of Illinois at Chicago, said. "Discoveries and advances in many different areas of medical science have cautioned against the notion that youth protects against the adverse effects of bad lifestyle behaviors or choices."

According to the investigators, more research is needed to determine if damage caused by binge drinking in young adulthood can be reversed before the onset of cardiovascular disease and to determine the timeframe for onset of disease.

 

 

So one might ask how they defined binge drinking?

 

Binge drinking was defined as consuming five or more standard size drinks (12 ounces of beer, 5 ounces of wine, 1.5 ounces of proof spirits or 8-9 ounces of malt liquor) in a two-hour period for males and four or more standard size drinks in a two-hour period for females. On average, the students who binge drink had six such episodes each month over four years.

Edited September 25, 2013 by djsurrey

[djsurrey]

I beg to differ. I drank heavily, until I returned from a remote assignment, a specific situation and I also drank alone, sitting in my room downing 3-5 scotches( single malt, of course) or wine at night. The drinking continued, the amount did not once I returned. Pretty much like Penny, so I'm not sure where the alcoholic you think you see came from.

 

We have also all heard of a people who smoke very heavily and never get cancer. Yet it has been shown that smoking is a leading cause of cancer. Medical science is not done by generalizing an individual case but by gathering a lot of data and finding the trends. Individuals can get lucky just like someone winning a lottery.

[3ku11]

I never said Penny diddn't drink heavily around S4, but to bring up stats to justify Penny has a problem when she clearly doesen't seems irrelevant to me. Those stats are based on out of the show, Penny is a fictional character. The only time I can remember Penny is drinking in S4 and S5 is when hanging out with Bernadette and Amy, she had a minor problem sure but it never spiraled out of control.

[djsurrey]

I think the writers liked to play on the whole Penny drinking thing, the drinking was more an extension of dealing with Leonard and Priya in S4. I think were over-exagerating a tad here, Penny never binged drinked at all, sure she has drunk to dull the pain at times like anyone does. But most of her drinking stopped by S5, but I do agree with most of your opinion, just that by S5 onwards Leonard and Penny have a few wines at dinner and dinner parties, that's about it.

Yes I agree they have liked playing on the Penny drinking thing. Actually all the characters have had a bout of drinking here or there. It does seem like much of the time it was Penny bringing this to the others (on occasion even to Sheldon). To the writers credit it generally is not good for the character. We can see why Sheldon does not want to drink by seeing the result of what happens when he does drink.

 

I did not notice the trend regarding S5 onwards but you may be right.

[djsurrey]

I never said Penny diddn't drink heavily around S4, but to bring up stats to justify Penny has a problem when she clearly doesen't seems irrelevant to me. Those stats are based on out of the show, Penny is a fictional character. The only time I can remember Penny is drinking in S4 and S5 is when hanging out with Bernadette and Amy, she had a minor problem sure but it never spiraled out of control.

She has not had a problem that spiraled out of control since the end of S4 but ending up in bed with Raj at the end of season 4 had the potential to ruin her friendships and that would not have happened without the drinking beyond a doubt. The Penny character is so very lucky she hangs with a bunch of mostly mature guys who just seem to forget it and really never bring it up again.

 

Perhaps that incident straightened her up. Obviously she had a big problem given the fact it happened (in the context of the show). Given the state of the relationship between Penny and Leonard at the time I was surprised this did not end any hope of romance between Penny and Leonard.  It also seemed to have no effect on the relationship between Leonard and Raj.

[Nogravitasatall]

I think in my first comment on this topic I pointed out that real binge drinking has consequences that are not so funny.

 

I'd like to refer again to http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130423161905.htm

So one might ask how they defined binge drinking?

Well, it's entertainment, so extremes of behaviour are quite often portrayed. . Othello wasn't such great role mode either. I can only recommend that you not watch "Trainspotting". Hehehehe.

[Tensor]

We have also all heard of a people who smoke very heavily and never get cancer. Yet it has been shown that smoking is a leading cause of cancer. Medical science is not done by generalizing an individual case but by gathering a lot of data and finding the trends. Individuals can get lucky just like someone winning a lottery.

Nice strawman. About 90% plus or minus 3%(the Air Force did a study of that place and I was working in the Commander's office) of those that went to that place was a heavy drinker, during their time there. A large majority quickly returned to normal after leaving and returning to their families. Basically when their situation changed.(I don't remember the exact number on the returning people(it was in 1989), but it was under 5% of those returning had problems(rough estimate is 3-4 people out of the 100 that went).

Penny was a situational drinker, with an occasional binge like component. If she had an alcohol problem, she would not have been able to reduce it so quickly, when the situation was resolved. Not to mention they clearly showed Penny depressed before the drinking. It's tough to separate which came first. Did the drinking cause the depression, or did the depression cause the drinking? Without a complete profile, were never really going to know.

And Amy has just as many issues with drinking. The girls were out dancing, Amy is the one that got sick and threw up, Amy is the one the went out and bought a bottle and got drunk in the parking lot, where Leonard and Sheldon had to rescue her. And we could be here all day with Raj. What I find interesting is that I cannot remember either Howard or Bernadette drunk. But I cant understand the picking on Penny, when other characters have the same problems.

[JonRS92]

I've had a while to think about this and it seems kind if counterproductive to me to have a discussion about this in the context of a sitcom. The writers had Penny emerge from season 4 unscathed but I do not think you can just dismiss the danger signs that were there. I can't quantify it exactly but we have multiple instances throughout the first 4 seasons where Penny turned to drink and/or meaningless sex to deal with an emotional problem. In the sitcom world we laugh. In the real world it probably isn't funny. To say that some people can drink heavily and stop in the real world is fine but not everyone can. For example my parents used to smoke to deal with stress. They stopped but that doesn't mean that their reasons were good or that they weren't risking addiction. Now like I said it is probably pointless to talk about a subject this heavy in the context of a sitcom where penny's drinking and sex are played for laughs and nothing more. It is tough though not to look at her through a real world prism and not see the danger as to what could be. Bottom line is that Penny emerged better and stronger but I don't think it fair to dismiss those of us who saw danger in what she was doing even if it is only a sitcom.

Edited September 25, 2013 by JonRS92

[djsurrey]

I've had a while to think about this and it seems kind if counterproductive to me to have a discussion about this in the context of a sitcom. The writers had Penny emerge from season 4 unscathed but I do not think you can just dismiss the danger signs that were there. I can't quantify it exactly but we have multiple instances throughout the first 4 seasons where Penny turned to drink and/or meaningless sex to deal with an emotional problem. In the sitcom world we laugh. In the real world it probably isn't funny. To say that some people can drink heavily and stop in the real world is fine but not everyone can. For example my parents used to smoke to deal with stress. They stopped but that doesn't mean that their reasons were good or that they weren't risking addiction. Now like I said it is probably pointless to talk about a subject this heavy in the context of a sitcom where penny's drinking and sex are played for laughs and nothing more. It is tough though not to look at her through a real world prism and not see the danger.

 

Sitcoms can and do deal with serious issues. It would be pointless to be hyper critical of Penny and start calling her names. It is never pointless in a conversation to point out that these are actually serious issues and getting drunk in real life is not actually funny. How could it be pointless to bring up new research that links binge drinking in youth with heart disease in old age? Or research that shows that heavy drinking in young women increases the likelihood of them being victimized...

 

from http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080208153624.htm

 

"This is the first study that we know of that has compared risk for physical and sexual assault among college women based on changes in drinking during this transition period," said Kathleen A. Parks, Ph.D., principal investigator on the study. "Clearly, abstaining from drinking is a protective measure. However, young college women should be aware that becoming a new drinker or increasing one's drinking during this transition increases the likelihood of victimization."

 

One can't help but think of the guys Penny dated before she met Leonard.

Anyway my point here is not to be critical of Penny but to share what I have been reading that is relevant to the topic of problem drinking.

Also I strongly disagree with those people who think that it is only a problem in the worst case where people loose all control in their lives. Loosing all control for a night is a big problem too.

[JonRS92]

Sitcoms can and do deal with serious issues. It would be pointless to be hyper critical of Penny and start calling her names. It is never pointless in a conversation to point out that these are actually serious issues and getting drunk in real life is not actually funny. How could it be pointless to bring up new research that links binge drinking in youth with heart disease in old age? Or research that shows that heavy drinking in young women increases the likelihood of them being victimized... from http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080208153624.htm One can't help but think of the guys Penny dated before she met Leonard. Anyway my point here is not to be critical of Penny but to share what I have been reading that is relevant to the topic of problem drinking. Also I strongly disagree with those people who think that it is only a problem in the worst case where people loose all control in their lives. Loosing all control for a night is a big problem too.

I was on board with you on this. Read back through the thread and see what I wrote. However what I say pointless it is because the writers aren't taking it seriously. I have no problem breaking Penny's character down and looking at what she's done and what it means but when the writers seem to be doing it only for laughs it is hard to get real serious about her in particular. I'm not trying to minimize drinking issues but with Penny and what they've written for her I don't think it a good idea to get too bent out of shape about her. I used to. Just a few weeks ago intact. Like I said read back through. But I've mellowed on it some since then. Do I think the Penny on screen had a drinking problem? Yes. Do I think the writers saw it that way? Not so much. As such I've mellowed on it. Edited September 25, 2013 by JonRS92

[djsurrey]

Yes I see. Still binge drinking has become a major problem on college and university campuses and characters on popular tv series can become role models. At least she is drinking less than in previous seasons.

[Tensor]

Anyway my point here is not to be critical of Penny but to share what I have been reading that is relevant to the topic of problem drinking.

Also I strongly disagree with those people who think that it is only a problem in the worst case where people loose all control in their lives. Loosing all control for a night is a big problem too.

Then why pick on Penny? Why not mention the others, I would say Amy sitting, drunk, by herself in a parking lot would be losing control, she could have easily been attacked. Sheldon, taking his pants off in the middle of a ceremony is losing control(interestingly, it's been Sheldon who has been SHOWN to lose control the most. Of course only once has it been his own fault). Leonard, drinking that whole bottle and charging into Penny's apartment demanding sex is losing control, Raj, numerous occasions, lost control, yet, you mentioned none of these, only Penny. If your intention wasn't to be critical of Penny, why mention only Penny and not any of the others?

And binge drinking hasn't become a problem, it has been a problem for quite a while. Binge drinking was a problem in the early 70s in college. And there is anecdotal evidence that binge drinking was a problem going back to at least the early 40s.

Bottom line is that Penny emerged better and stronger but I don't think it fair to dismiss those of us who saw danger in what she was doing even if it is only a sitcom.

If wanting to point out how dangerous drinking is, why then pick only on Penny when others have had their problems?

[djsurrey]

Then why pick on Penny? Why not mention the others, I would say Amy sitting, drunk, by herself in a parking lot would be losing control, she could have easily been attacked. Sheldon, taking his pants off in the middle of a ceremony is losing control(interestingly, it's been Sheldon who has been SHOWN to lose control the most. Of course only once has it been his own fault). Leonard, drinking that whole bottle and charging into Penny's apartment demanding sex is losing control, Raj, numerous occasions, lost control, yet, you mentioned none of these, only Penny. If your intention wasn't to be critical of Penny, why mention only Penny and not any of the others?

And binge drinking hasn't become a problem, it has been a problem for quite a while. Binge drinking was a problem in the early 70s in college. And there is anecdotal evidence that binge drinking was a problem going back to at least the early 40s.

If wanting to point out how dangerous drinking is, why then pick only on Penny when others have had their problems?

 

I don't think I have ever picked on Penny and I did not create the topic. I'm quite sure that I have also meantioned Sheldon's drinking as an example of someone doing something while binging that he/she would not normally do and regreting it! I have laughed at these things as much as anyone else.

 

I think the reason Penny is being singled out is because she had brought the drinking to the rest of the gang. None of them had any idea that Raj could talk to women when served a drink before the day Penny wanted to practice making drinks. Leonard wanted to have a binge with Penny to overcome the weidness Penny and he were feeling when they had sex early on. In earlier seasons Penny would drink to overcome sadness and disapointment or just to help her put up with Sheldon.

 

s6e23 http://bigbangtrans.wordpress.com/series-06-episode-23-the-love-spell-potential/

 

Penny: Okay, who wants a drink?

Sheldon: Yeah, we, now, Penny, we don’t consume alcohol during Dungeons & Dragons. It impairs our judgment.

Penny: Oh, this isn’t alcohol. It’s a magic potion that makes me like you.

Leonard: Double potion, please.

 

 

Perhaps what I should have said is that more and more research is mounting all the time about the negative effects of binge drinking on heathy young people. There is also evidence that young women are drinking more now than in the past.

see http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090811161259.htm

 

"We found that healthy young university students – meaning those with no alcohol-use disorder, alcohol dependence or associated psychiatric disorders – who engaged in binge drinking showed anomalies during the execution of a task involving visual working memory, despite correct execution of the task, in comparison with young non binge drinkers. They required greater attentional processing during the task in order to carry it out correctly."

These same students also had difficulties differentiating between relevant and irrelevant stimuli. "They displayed less efficiency in distributing attentional and working memory resources between the different information presented in a working memory task," said Crego. "These results collectively suggest that impaired brain function may occur at an early age in binge drinkers during attentional and working memory processing, even in young university students without alcohol-use disorders."

Crego cautioned that the attentional and working memory deficits exhibited by chronic alcoholics are indicative of the problems that may develop with binge drinking. "Healthy adolescents and young people who partake in intermittent consumption of large amounts of alcohol – otherwise known as binge drinking – even only once or twice a week, and who do not display chronic alcohol consumption or alcohol dependence may nonetheless suffer alterations at the electrophysiological level in attentional and working memory processing."

Edited October 12, 2013 by djsurrey

[JonRS92]

If wanting to point out how dangerous drinking is, why then pick only on Penny when others have had their problems?

Well first because the thread was about Penny. Second, and I'll be honest, Penny's choices bothered me a bit more because they hit closer to home for me. However you are correct. When talking about the dangers of drinking it is not fair to focus only on Penny.

[djsurrey]

Since I came accross a new article I thought I would add as a follow up to

 

from http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/10/sexual_assault_and_drinking_teach_women_the_connection.html

 

The “Campus Sexual Assault Study” of 2007, undertaken for the Department of Justice, found that the popular belief that many young rape victims have been slipped “date rape” drugs is false. “Most sexual assaults occur after voluntary consumption of alcohol by the victim and assailant,” the report states. But the researchers noted that this crucial point is not being articulated to young and naïve women: “Despite the link between substance abuse and sexual assault it appears that few sexual assault and/or risk reduction programs address the relationship between substance use and sexual assault.” The report added, somewhat plaintively, “Students may also be unaware of the image of vulnerability projected by a visibly intoxicated individual.”

 

"The culture of binge drinking—whose pinnacle is the college campus—does not just harm women. Surveys find that more than 40 percent of college students binge drink, defined by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention as consuming five or more drinks for a man and four or more for a woman in about two hours. Of those drinkers, many end their sessions on gurneys: The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism estimates that about 600,000 students a year are injured due to their drinking, and about 700,000 are assaulted by a classmate in a drunken encounter. Some end up on slabs: About 1,800 students a year die as a consequence of alcohol intake."

 

Anyway I think the drinking on TBBT has been toned down a lot which is good in my opinion.

Edited November 1, 2013 by djsurrey