Episodes 7.04 "the Raiders Minimization" (October 10)

[Tensor]

Ouchouchouch, ooouuhh that one really hurts! Hurts soo much!

What is this? Polemics for beginners?

What argument would You bring next? "Your mom..."?

Nah, that would be an ad hominem argument. I didn't say what you stated was false, just pointing out the hypocritical nature of your post.

[Kasey]

What I like about forums like this one and the discussions that come from analysis of the characters is that it adds new dimensions of enjoyment to an already enjoyable show.  The fact that we can get so into the nitty gritty of a characterization means that the writers and the actors are doing one heck of a job in conveying the characters to us.  In essence, bringing them to life.

 

I find most poster's analysis wonderful to read since it either gives credence to what I was thinking or takes me in another direction.  So bottom line while they may not be real, the basest bottom answer to that for me is "so what?" ....

[djvang]

haha everyone is entitled to an opinion, although from what I have seen 99% seem to love the episode as I did, although it wasen't as good as last week's episode it was really good, Season 7 at the way it is going could be the big bang's best season ever JMO. Just wondering why you exactly diddn't like the episode, was it personal preferance like the relationship's? All is your comedy taste a bit subjective for this episode, some people may have not found Leonard what he did funny, I did but everyone has different preferances. Not that it matters as TBBT was #1 for the night in all networks for the third week in the row, and that's all that matters. 

Red:

I'm just getting tired of seeing Leonard continually humiliated by his awful, awful, awful mother. I got the point during her first few appearances. Now it just seems like piling on.

 

I'm also dismayed that the writers have apparently settled on the tired old "silly, childish boyfriend and the wise, patient girlfriend who loves him inspite of his buffonery" type of relationship for Sheldon & Amy.  They threw away the refreshingly unique robot-couple in favor of a much-easier-to-write romcom cliche relationship.

 

Blue:

It's sad that to TPTB it seems to be that IS all that now matters.

 

JMO

 

And please spare me the "if you hate the show so much why do you keep watching?". I don't hate the show, I'm just disappointed in it.

[Lionne]

I find Beverly hilarious - Christine Baranski is so funny she makes my toes curl. In this particular instance, Leonard got what was coming to him. He took Penny's kindness and sympathy and then milked it egregiously, and then bragged about doing so to Howard. He was clearly owed a major smackdown, and it was brought from the place all his greatest smackdowns stem - his mother. I really have no arguments with it. I understand that Leonard has looked for sympathy and understanding his whole life and never really found comfort - until this instance with Penny. I think that having someone be sympathetic and sweetly try to make him feel better rather than show cold indifference to his emotional state was so unusual that he got completely drunk on it and then ran away with it. I find that totally understandable and certainly don't hate him for it, but I also don't see it as an excuse. I'm always fond of the lesson that kharma is a bitch, and I liked the storyline and resolution here better than I did, say, Leonard having a legitimate problem with Priya and Beverly just telling him to, "buck up, sissy pants." He really didn't deserve any of that in that case, but in this case he did, so I appreciated the humor and Beverly's appearance more. Leonard went too far with milking Penny's sympathy, and it got shut down in such a way that you know he learned his lesson and will stop doing it, and you kinda feel sorry for him even if he got himself into that particular mess.

 

I thought that Raj and Stuart were incredibly funny. Kevin's faces to the camera during his photo shoot were pure genius. I was laughing so hard over those. Also, I think that the experience of online dating is genuine to how it really works. Even if you're relatively attractive or sweet-natured, the dating world can be total hell. Putting yourself out there like Raj and Stuart are doing is brave, and that they keep being hopeful despite all of the smackdowns makes me root for them.

 

Amy and Sheldon's storyline was both funny and interesting. I got chills when Amy tells Sheldon he can be honest about his feelings, and he snaps from trying to seem at ease with some of his nervous twitching as he was suppressing his emotions to the way he leaps forward, suddenly his body connecting with how he feels, and he tells her that he's mad at her. It was some amazing acting there on Jim's part, and quite fascinating to the development of their relationship and Sheldon's evolution. They seem to be hitting a nail on the head about Sheldon connecting to his emotional side and, most importantly, displaying them openly and directly to the people around him. It takes more trust in the people around you to be able to do that.

 

And if you think that Sheldon has no problem voicing his emotions and feelings, I'm really not sure what show you have been watching. This is a guy who, seasons back, was asked, "How does that make you feel," and answered with, "I don't understand the question." Or, when riddled with jealousy by watching Amy date Stuart, took such backwards routes as stalking Stuart's Facebook page, lashing out and defriending all of his friends when they suggest he has feelings for her, and then trying to ask Penny out on a date as part of a manipulative game to make her jealous. As recently as Leonard leaving for the North Sea, Sheldon dealt with this by warning him about death by drowning or sharks, and even went so low as to throw Leonard's relationship with Penny in his face to try to make him consider not leaving. When confronted by Leonard about his unique blend of "concern and selfishness," Sheldon will not admit to having those feelings even while he plunges on with behavior clearly motivated by those feelings.

 

Even while Leonard is gone, Sheldon sits on the couch with Penny, denying strenuously that he misses Leonard while listing off waffles, zipper-help, and night time knocks on the wall in loving detail as clear evidence of how desperately he actually misses him. In fact, he's so worried about Leonard, and misses him so much, it manifests in his subconscious in the form of a nightmare of Leonard being taken by the Kraken. His response is to show up at Penny's and suggest he better sleep there because SHE is the one who is probably having a hard time sleeping, again, operating from denial of his feelings which he projects onto her. Another example of Sheldon going sideways instead of straight when in emotion distress is when Leonard dissolves the roommate agreement. Sheldon throws the circuit breaker and tries to demonstrate all the reasons why he's a valuable asset to Leonard as a friend and roommate to make him resign it and come back again. This sideways dealing is clearly Sheldon's established modus operandi. He could just tell Leonard he misses him, wants him back, and appreciates all that Leonard does for him, but he's not capable of it.

 

The level of denial, particularly his inability to express his emotions in a straightforward manner, with Sheldon is immense and has been a front-and-center issue with him since the beginning. It's been portrayed a zillion different ways throughout all 6 seasons, and is a major theme coming into season 7 as well. In this episode, I find it greatly fascinating and in total keeping with the canon that when Amy confronts Sheldon about his mode of operation he says it's because that's how it's parents did it. He goes sideways at things because of trauma from watching his parents marriage implode, and he's learned these passive-aggressive and indirect ways of dealing from watching them and from his relationships from his youth. (I imagine that the bullying only double-downed on reinforcing the idea that "being himself" and "being honest about the way he feels or thinks" was completely unacceptable, and he had to find other ways to manage himself. He looked externally for other role-models, and found Spock, Data - brilliant, emotionless, in control, untouchable - and the rest is history.)

 

Oh, and he also does this because it's funny.

 

I know a lot of people latched onto Sheldon's "how can someone not know how they feel" from last season as evidence that Sheldon knows precisely how he feels, but I think that just because Sheldon knows he loves trains, hammerhead sharks and dislikes holding hands that's hardly proper evidence that the man's crystal clear on how feels about everything in his life. He's obviously mixing up opinions and emotions. I thought the man was clearly fooling himself, but apparently the statement also fooled some people in the audience because a lot of people use that as evidence that Sheldon has no inward uncertainy or emotional turmoil. However, I think there's far more evidence to the contrary. Sheldon has used denial and condescension as his primary coping skills all his life, but they aren't getting him where he wants to go anymore. So they are starting to bleed off at times, and watching that happen is as fascinating. Almost as fascinating is watching what type of viewer does or does not like seeing Sheldon make this progress, but that's another post for another day.

 

Back to Leonard & Beverly - Sorry, Phanta, but I have to disagree with you on the idea that it's clear Beverly loves Leonard and Leonard loves her. I think Beverly's ability to love is pretty limited. And I have to disagree with you that she wasn't incredibly abusive towards him or that he was not deeply scarred psychologically and emotionally by his upbringing. Also, I believe that Leonard is the middle child or that the show didn't really think that one through. When Raj threatens to have his way with Leonard's sister, Leonard says she's 36 and married, indicating that she was at least 6 years older than him. But when Beverly comes to visit Leonard the first time, she mentioned his YOUNGER brother, Michael. So, apparently, Leonard is the oldest boy but middle child, but I think he really gets the dirty end of the stick between all his siblings.

 

Beverly's books don't show any love towards Leonard at all - Needy Baby, Greedy Baby and The Disappointing Child. What she did with the Easter Eggs?

 

Beverly is a nightmare of a parent, and she messed up Leonard something fierce. He has consistently shown and mentioned this throughout the series. He was on a continual quest for love that was never given, and as this episode proved, he was angry at him Mom all the time and unable to express his feelings without her misunderstanding and twisting it into something it was not. Not only that, but she has put every single one of his most empbarrassing moments growing up out there for the world to read about, leaving him with barely a single shred of dignity. His issues with insecurity, which hamper his relationship with Penny, all tie back to her. I think Leonard got a hard smackdown in this episode - and he deserved it this time - but overall I feel for him greatly and think he had a horrid, horrid childhood in which, just like Sheldon, he was denied self-expression and understanding and room in which to be himself.

 

The most fascinating thing about Leonard and Sheldon's relationship is that they both come from embattled backgrounds and borderline abusive childhoods, but they took entirely different defensive and coping strategies. Sheldon decided to shut down emotionally, and to place himself above it all. He aspired to be detached and unemotional and used his brilliance in academics to get out as fast as he could. On the other hand, Leonard "knuckled under" and went the people-pleasing route, trying to jump through every hoop, such as giving up rap music for academics, writing papers to be graded for Christmas, striving for the highest academic achievements in the sciences in a fruitless, hopeless bid to try to win his parent's attention, love and approval. They couldn't have taken more different strategies, but I think that there's an unspoken understanding between the two of them that they know the horror the other faced and what coping methods they took, and their entire relationship is built on sometimes using the others weaknesses to their advantage, sometimes just accepting the other and the comfort in being around someone who accepts you for who you are as a shelter against the world outside, and supporting the other through thick and thin.

 

Sometimes you need episodes which might not seem exciting on the surface, but which build certain blocks necessary for plot development later. Obviously, those types of stories come early in the season. I think that this was one of them - we hit on issues for all 7 characters here (oh, and no, I don't think that Bernadette was a shrew or that there was signs of divorce for Howard and Bernadette. If anything, it showed that they are settling into their marriage and operating at a higher level than the other two couples as far as relating to each other) that show where they are "on the path of life." To me it was a very fascinating check in with everyone's psychological standpoints and issues, which I find deeply interesting and gives the show more than the take-it-or-leave-it fluff we get most of the time.

 

So for me it was actually a very good episode, one that I found funny but also very interesting.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Lionne

[djsurrey]

I thought that was a very insightful post from beginning to end!

[Lionne]

I thought that was a very insightful post from beginning to end!

 

Thank you very much, DJ.

[koops]

I think we've had this debate before, but I always find it an interesting one.

 

I think there's a difference between Sheldon not being willing to admit to others that he has emotions and Sheldon not knowing how he feels. I think the issue with him has always been that he did not want other people to know he had emotions. So he would circle around the issues, play games, tiptoe around it, try to find every conceivable way of avoiding saying "Yes, I am jealous/I miss you/You hurt my feelings". The only time he would admit to having them is when backed up against the wall. And even then he would try to find a way to escape. But in order to do that, he had to know he had them in the first place. And that's why he is capable of having those rare moments of Sheldon Cooper clarity.

 

But it was mostly emotions that showed he cared about other people that he was uncomfortable showing, not negative emotions. He was especially not afraid of showing negative emotions for fear of rejection. I actually don't think he was afraid of expressing positive emotions for fear of rejection either. It is pride that always tripped him up. Now he is letting go of that pride, because, yes, it isn't getting him anywhere he wants to go anymore. And so you have Penny telling him "You're an emotionless robot" and him finally admitting "I try". And suddenly he is stopping with the games and the denial and he is being upfront about it. I do think it's the trust in these people, particularly Amy, that makes the difference now, but I think it's more that he trusts them not to mock him than not to reject him. He spent so much of his life on a pedestal where he mocked other people for being "hippies" that now he knows very well there may be a costly price to pay in stepping down of that pedestal. But he is opening up to those he knows won't make him "pay" for it.

 

As for Sheldon and Leonard's childhoods. I agree that Leonard's childhood was downright abusive for the most part, Beverly is just unfit to be a parent. But I don't think Sheldon had an abusive childhood per se. Not a pretty one, for sure, but I wouldn't say abusive. While being a child of divorce and with a parent who drank and had affairs must not be easy or pleasant, and his parents fights definitely left a strong mark on him, he also has close, loving bonds with his mother and his grandmother and he used to have one with his grandfather. I think Leonard had by far the worst childhood of the two because he was bullied in and outside of the home, whereas Sheldon was at least bullied mostly only outside of the home. 

[3ku11]

Red:

I'm just getting tired of seeing Leonard continually humiliated by his awful, awful, awful mother. I got the point during her first few appearances. Now it just seems like piling on.

 

I'm also dismayed that the writers have apparently settled on the tired old "silly, childish boyfriend and the wise, patient girlfriend who loves him inspite of his buffonery" type of relationship for Sheldon & Amy.  They threw away the refreshingly unique robot-couple in favor of a much-easier-to-write romcom cliche relationship.

 

Blue:

It's sad that to TPTB it seems to be that IS all that now matters.

 

JMO

 

And please spare me the "if you hate the show so much why do you keep watching?". I don't hate the show, I'm just disappointed in it.

That's where you trip up the writer's haven't done anything wrong here, I don't think anyone seriousley expects to maintain or sustain robotic Shamy. Funny because a lot of people are the opposite to your argument, they want more emotional from Sheldon and more compromise in his relationship with Amy. Not sure where your getting the whole Shamy are just an archtypical rom com relationship now, never seen that, from what I have seen their is more balance now almost like S4. You go to understand that robotic Shamy just cannot be sustained over time, they would of hit a wall storyline wise. 95 % I have seen or heard are pleased with Shamy right now, Sheldon has made a  lot of progress in his social and emotional intelligence and his awareness of people, I don't think you have considered all the variables. Yeah Sheldon can be childish at time's and the writer's have made tremendous growth here, but I think your missing the point if your expecting Sheldon to maintain his robotic I don't care about anyone other then myself attitude for ever, your expecting too much, TBBT has never been a show about big moments or cliffhangers, but about gradual and slow changes. The core premise of Sheldon and Amy's character's are still robotic, but they are both evolving and Sheldon is changing, he is now realizing people are a very relevant part of his world, as is Amy, these are not geek's or robot's, but people with very eccentric personalities, but at the end of the day deep down Amy has just wanted almost what Penny had growing up.

 

Shamy has always been a work in progress, I don't agree that the writer's are writing them like a typical rom com relationship, I mean change is the only constant. As for Leonard well your not in the minority a lot of people are getting sick of Beverley treating Leonard horribly, but personally I thought it was really funny, but I think your missing the point here, Penny is a very optimistic trusting person, she probably thought if she has a good relationship with Beverley, this would go a long way in mending their relationship. The "evil" mother has always been a big part of sitcoms, go back to Taahm Evelyn holds her son's in no regard yet loves them, guess never seen any evidence from Beverley that she loves Leonard, so I can understand if your pre-disposition is too feel turned off by seeing Leonard consistently undermined and mistreated by Beverley, it's kinda like in Taahm people after a while just get sick of Alan always being treated badly. If this was the real world Leonard would be a some crazed serial killer haha, so it's amazing Leonard has turned out the way he has, but this is sitcom land, it's like in Friend's, when the friend's talked by the sink about another character, and you think come on how did he or she not hear that? But you need to overlook these thing's to get the comedy out of it, the writer's on TBBT are in the buisness of comedy, but they are also telling stories through these people who are not geek's, but people on the back drop of geek culture, so I guess depends on personal preferance's of the show.

 

Not that I am excusing Beverley for the way she has treated Leonard, but you could argue she is just as emotionally stunted as Leonard, she just never considered human emotional as a relevant part of human nature, as much as Science, to her seeing is beleiving, maybe it never dawned on her that Leonard needed love and approval growing up. It's the just way she is, it is the way she is built, it's like with Sheldon he well always consider education and knowledge over human emotion, that's why Penny when it come's to social and emotional intelligence is really the real genius. So I understand you and a lot of people having a pre-disposition to getting enough of seeing Leonard mistreated by her mother, but I Feel the writer's use it as a plot device to bring Leonard's submissive behaviour out, yeah in a perfect world Beverley would be the world's best Mother, but it's the way she is and that's the way the writer's are writing her. As for Penny and the skype, I loved how she diddn't "hulk" out, if this was S3 she would of had a fit and gone nebraska on Leonard's, ass, but they are in such a good place right now, to restore the balance in their relationship, she choose to get even opposed to getting angry.

 

And she knew the best way to hit Leonard where it hurt's regardless if the method of bringing Beverley into situation could be pereceived a bit wrong on Penny's part, what Leonard did too was a bit manipulative, so they both made mistakes. Remind's me of Chandler and Monica from Friend's, after their wedding, Chandler and Ross coulden't find the camera's, so Chandler had too kiss another women on her wedding day, and Monica opened all the present's, so they were like "Call it even!" haha same kinda situation her. As for the TPTB only caring about rating's and that's it, obviousley being a sitcom the writer's are writing here, rating's give the show visibility, rating's are a big part of convincing the network to keep it on air. A lot of show's have either not taken off or cancelled in the first season because of poor rating's, so they are a very important factor, and the fact TBBT is killing it in rating's right now is seperate to quality, I mean Taahm still pulls 11 mill yet arguably quality has gone down hill. I'm loving Season 7 so far, and seeing perception is reality, you are entitled to your opinion of the flaws you see in the show right now, but this is all based on a personal preferance, like I diddn't like Season 5 but re watched it when I got the DVD and now love it, TBBT has so many nuances you just don't pick up if you just watch it once.

Edited October 13, 2013 by 3ku11

[SRAM]

That's where you trip up the writer's haven't done anything wrong here, I don't think anyone seriousley expects to maintain or sustain robotic Shamy. Funny because a lot of people are the opposite to your argument, they want more emotional from Sheldon and more compromise in his relationship with Amy. Not sure where your getting the whole Shamy are just an archtypical rom com relationship now, never seen that, from what I have seen their is more balance now almost like S4. You go to understand that robotic Shamy just cannot be sustained over time, they would of hit a wall storyline wise. 95 % I have seen or heard are pleased with Shamy right now, Sheldon has made a  lot of progress in his social and emotional intelligence and his awareness of people, I don't think you have considered all the variables. Yeah Sheldon can be childish at time's and the writer's have made tremendous growth here, but I think your missing the point if your expecting Sheldon to maintain his robotic I don't care about anyone other then myself attitude for ever, your expecting too much, TBBT has never been a show about big moments or cliffhangers, but about gradual and slow changes. The core premise of Sheldon and Amy's character's are still robotic, but they are both evolving and Sheldon is changing, he is now realizing people are a very relevant part of his world, as is Amy, these are not geek's or robot's, but people with very eccentric personalities, but at the end of the day deep down Amy has just wanted almost what Penny had growing up.

 

 

 

I want to just address the Shamy part of your response.  First of all I like Shamy, so this is not meant to put Shamy down.  Sheldon is in a Catch 22 situation right now.  To be more normal with Amy, would mean he would have to understand how normal people interact and that is the problem.  Sheldon has done some horrible things to people in the group, especially Leonard (he was the one who broke them up after the first date by making Penny think she wasn't smart enough for Leonard), but that can be excused in the show because Sheldon is socially inept.  This has been the source of a lot of conflict and comedy in the show.  If Sheldon acts like a real boy, understanding Amy's feelings and treating her more normal, then he is no longer being socially inept, so the things he does are now cruel and wrong, he becomes an asshole and not funny.  That is the catch 22, if Sheldon starts to understand social interaction, then he is OOC for Sheldon, and the things he does are just the actions of a self centered, self important asshole and it doesn't make sense for anyone to put up with him.  I don't know how the writers are going to make Shamy work and keep Sheldon IC (robotic?) and funny.

[Chrismo]

I want to just address the Shamy part of your response.  First of all I like Shamy, so this is not meant to put Shamy down.  Sheldon is in a Catch 22 situation right now.  To be more normal with Amy, would mean he would have to understand how normal people interact and that is the problem.  Sheldon has done some horrible things to people in the group, especially Leonard (he was the one who broke them up after the first date by making Penny think she wasn't smart enough for Leonard), but that can be excused in the show because Sheldon is socially inept.  This has been the source of a lot of conflict and comedy in the show.  If Sheldon acts like a real boy, understanding Amy's feelings and treating her more normal, then he is no longer being socially inept, so the things he does are now cruel and wrong, he becomes an asshole and not funny.  That is the catch 22, if Sheldon starts to understand social interaction, then he is OOC for Sheldon, and the things he does are just the actions of a self centered, self important asshole and it doesn't make sense for anyone to put up with him.  I don't know how the writers are going to make Shamy work and keep Sheldon IC (robotic?) and funny.

I agree with almost everything you said except that Sheldon broke them up after their first date. What went wrong there was Leonard knowing the whole situation and going to Penny's apartment "only with" a jr. college catalog. Leonard realized immediately what he did wrong. Sheldon was only guilty of honestly answering Penny's questions about his previous dates/girlfriends and their education. Sheldon didn't break them up Leonard did. 

[SRAM]

I agree with almost everything you said except that Sheldon broke them up after their first date. What went wrong there was Leonard knowing the whole situation and going to Penny's apartment "only with" a jr. college catalog. Leonard realized immediately what he did wrong. Sheldon was only guilty of honestly answering Penny's questions about his previous dates/girlfriends and their education. Sheldon didn't break them up Leonard did. 

 

I have to disagree, by the time Leonard went over, they were already broken up and acting weird already around each other.  Leonard did make things worse, because he reaffirmed what Sheldon told Penny, and what she already had planted in her mind.  Penny had an insecurity and when she went to Sheldon her confirmed it to her, so she convinced herself they were not a good match and never talked to him about it, because she had decided.  If Leonard did not go over at the end, the outcome would have been the same, so his actions did not cause the breakup, they just confirmed to Penny she was doing the right thing.  Remember how she advoided having a second date with him, they were over it her mind and that was before he brought the community college catalog to her apartment.

[djsurrey]

I have to disagree, by the time Leonard went over, they were already broken up and acting weird already around each other.  Leonard did make things worse, because he reaffirmed what Sheldon told Penny, and what she already had planted in her mind.  Penny had an insecurity and when she went to Sheldon her confirmed it to her, so she convinced herself they were not a good match and never talked to him about it, because she had decided.  If Leonard did not go over at the end, the outcome would have been the same, so his actions did not cause the breakup, they just confirmed to Penny she was doing the right thing.  Remember how she advoided having a second date with him, they were over it her mind and that was before he brought the community college catalog to her apartment.

Well Penny would not have gone to talk to Sheldon if the date had gone better. Leonard had known her for a year already and had not figured out what topics to avoid on the date.

 

 

Penny: Well, he was going on and on about this college and that grad school and I didn’t want him to think I was some stupid loser.

This talk made her insecure.

 

Then he thought he could fix the problem by getting her to go to college. If he could have just reasured her that she had many great qualities and he liked to be with her then he would probably had a chance. If he had talked so much "about this college and that grad school" before the date he probably would not have had the first date either.

[3ku11]

Well Penny would not have gone to talk to Sheldon if the date had gone better. Leonard had known her for a year already and had not figured out what topics to avoid on the date.

 

This talk made her insecure.

 

Then he thought he could fix the problem by getting her to go to college. If he could have just reasured her that she had many great qualities and he liked to be with her then he would probably had a chance. If he had talked so much "about this college and that grad school" before the date he probably would not have had the first date either.

I think up to talking to Sheldon she was starting to question if she had any right to date a guy like Leonard, but her talk with Sheldon confirmed her insecurities. And like you said they had been friend's for a year up to that point, so you would assume by that point Penny knew that considering Leonard's job and the fact he is a scientist, it is implied he has some form of advanced education. I think you could say sub-conciousley she dated "gym" guy's because socially that was expected from society, their education capacity was as limited as Penny's was. Where as Leonard going on about this college and that grad school reinforced her insecurities that she has no right being with a guy like Leonard, she felt she diddn't deserve him. And I am not sure how Leonard going on about his education prior to the date would of influenced whether or not they went on the date in the first place, like I said they knew each other for a year, so it's not like Leonard was subtle when it came to his interest in education and the science lol. I remember before their first date Sheldon gave Leonard and Penny the theory of Schiendler's Cat Theory, you don't know if the cat is alive until you open the box, remember before the date Leonard kissed Penny, and Penny replied with "Okay the cat's alive", so they obviousley had chemistry from the beginning.

 

But when it came to Leonard offering Penny to go to college, obviousley Sheldon let it out Penny felt insecure about Leonard's education, I remember Leonard was like "Penny think's she's not smart enough for me, that's riduclous!" So clearly he appreciated all qualities Penny had, but knowing Leonard his method's are always wayward, so he had the best intention's, but going to Penny and shoving a college application in her face, was really insulting to Penny. It gave her the impression that Leonard under valued her, and felt that she need a certain level of qualification before she could date Leonard, this reinforced her fears and qualms about their relationship, so her reaction physically manisfested itself in a slammed door in Leonard's face. Since 2x01 though I remember Penny dated Eric, when Leonard dated Leslie, and they clearly were trying to make each other jealous, and since then Penny dated less and less, and you started too see her getting immersed in the guy's activities, struggling with rent e.t.c. Guess that one date with Leonard put her dating gym guy's with a casual paradaigm into a really harsh light. Later on in Season 2 obviousley she dated David Underhill, which made Penny come across as hypocritical, but to be fair DU diddn't look like an everyday Geek, he was more a cross between Leonard and the gym guy's she used to date, that whole experience though made her realize Leonard is not that smart when it come's down to it, when he stormed in her apartment, when DU turned out to be married, all the intelligence in the world sometime does not make a difference when it come's to conversing with people.

 

So their were a lot of factor's why they diddn't work first time around, but that was then this is now they have both grown IMO, since Season 4 they both want to be together despite all the odd's.

Edited October 13, 2013 by 3ku11

[koops]

I want to just address the Shamy part of your response.  First of all I like Shamy, so this is not meant to put Shamy down.  Sheldon is in a Catch 22 situation right now.  To be more normal with Amy, would mean he would have to understand how normal people interact and that is the problem.  Sheldon has done some horrible things to people in the group, especially Leonard (he was the one who broke them up after the first date by making Penny think she wasn't smart enough for Leonard), but that can be excused in the show because Sheldon is socially inept.  This has been the source of a lot of conflict and comedy in the show.  If Sheldon acts like a real boy, understanding Amy's feelings and treating her more normal, then he is no longer being socially inept, so the things he does are now cruel and wrong, he becomes an asshole and not funny.  That is the catch 22, if Sheldon starts to understand social interaction, then he is OOC for Sheldon, and the things he does are just the actions of a self centered, self important asshole and it doesn't make sense for anyone to put up with him.  I don't know how the writers are going to make Shamy work and keep Sheldon IC (robotic?) and funny.

 

You make it sound like Sheldon is some kind of monster who goes around doing horrible things to people all the time, and that is the only comedy value in his character, when I can hardly ever think of occasions where that was the case. Raj has done much worse! He was the one who was cheering for his BEST FRIEND to be rejected at his marriage proposal because he had a stupid crush on his girlfriend. And the one who would have slept with Penny, if he had managed to go through with it. Sheldon has hardly ever done really despicable stuff, and he's actually always had Leonard's back, in his own way, when it comes to Penny (point in case, 7x02, where he was worried that Penny was cheating on Leonard, or 6x02 when he tried to stop her from breaking up with him).

 

Sheldon also has several other facets to his character besides not understanding social interactions, that make him funny. Furthermore, I don't see why it is a requirement that Sheldon learns to understand social interactions in all contexts in order to be a better boyfriend to Amy, especially considering Amy is quite the odd duck too. I think the writers are doing a fantastic job this season of showing how you can keep him funny while making him nicer and more considerate. Why is it that Sheldon maturing enough to improve his relationship with Amy takes away the fun, but all the other characters can grow and develop? It's like saying that Penny should never commit to Leonard because a main staple of her character is that she is afraid of commitment and a lot of the comedy was based on the whole "Are we still dating?" thing with Leonard. 

 

As long as they don't get lazy, the writers will find a way to make stuff work without killing the comedy. They definitely don't want their characters to be despicable, that's for sure.

Edited October 13, 2013 by koops

[Berliner]

A very good episode, I laughed aloud; ah Beverly if we could only have more of you, it was almost like old times. Penny & manipulative Leonard were right on, Raj & Stuart were brilliant, giving the show its lonely nerds roots. Amy was great, they're writing her like season 4 Amy, not last year's creepy freak. I loved her sucking the joy out of Sheldon's world while he plotted revenge; his classic line " Pride and Prejudice is a masterpiece", the meh was Bernadette and Howard, I miss old creepy Howard & his mon the only Mrs. Wolowitz;-)

 

Spot on!

Another Very Good episdoe for me. B&H are getting really dull imho, but I already complained about that in the respective threads. Bernadette needs to go on a field trip or something, so Howard can have his freedom back. For now, he is kind of tamed.

What a very good episode that was !

 

The interactions between the couples were great.

I love Bernie's no nonsense attitude; she is good at keeping Howard in line. 

 

And that shouldn't be the case. Howards needs to be funny again.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Berliner

[djvang]

That's where you trip up the writer's haven't done anything wrong here, I don't think anyone seriousley expects to maintain or sustain robotic Shamy. Funny because a lot of people are the opposite to your argument, they want more emotional from Sheldon and more compromise in his relationship with Amy. Not sure where your getting the whole Shamy are just an archtypical rom com relationship now, never seen that, from what I have seen their is more balance now almost like S4. You go to understand that robotic Shamy just cannot be sustained over time, they would of hit a wall storyline wise. 95 % I have seen or heard are pleased with Shamy right now, Sheldon has made a  lot of progress in his social and emotional intelligence and his awareness of people, I don't think you have considered all the variables. Yeah Sheldon can be childish at time's and the writer's have made tremendous growth here, but I think your missing the point if your expecting Sheldon to maintain his robotic I don't care about anyone other then myself attitude for ever, your expecting too much, TBBT has never been a show about big moments or cliffhangers, but about gradual and slow changes. The core premise of Sheldon and Amy's character's are still robotic, but they are both evolving and Sheldon is changing, he is now realizing people are a very relevant part of his world, as is Amy, these are not geek's or robot's, but people with very eccentric personalities, but at the end of the day deep down Amy has just wanted almost what Penny had growing up.

 

Shamy has always been a work in progress, I don't agree that the writer's are writing them like a typical rom com relationship, I mean change is the only constant. As for Leonard well your not in the minority a lot of people are getting sick of Beverley treating Leonard horribly, but personally I thought it was really funny, but I think your missing the point here, Penny is a very optimistic trusting person, she probably thought if she has a good relationship with Beverley, this would go a long way in mending their relationship. The "evil" mother has always been a big part of sitcoms, go back to Taahm Evelyn holds her son's in no regard yet loves them, guess never seen any evidence from Beverley that she loves Leonard, so I can understand if your pre-disposition is too feel turned off by seeing Leonard consistently undermined and mistreated by Beverley, it's kinda like in Taahm people after a while just get sick of Alan always being treated badly. If this was the real world Leonard would be a some crazed serial killer haha, so it's amazing Leonard has turned out the way he has, but this is sitcom land, it's like in Friend's, when the friend's talked by the sink about another character, and you think come on how did he or she not hear that? But you need to overlook these thing's to get the comedy out of it, the writer's on TBBT are in the buisness of comedy, but they are also telling stories through these people who are not geek's, but people on the back drop of geek culture, so I guess depends on personal preferance's of the show.

 

Not that I am excusing Beverley for the way she has treated Leonard, but you could argue she is just as emotionally stunted as Leonard, she just never considered human emotional as a relevant part of human nature, as much as Science, to her seeing is beleiving, maybe it never dawned on her that Leonard needed love and approval growing up. It's the just way she is, it is the way she is built, it's like with Sheldon he well always consider education and knowledge over human emotion, that's why Penny when it come's to social and emotional intelligence is really the real genius. So I understand you and a lot of people having a pre-disposition to getting enough of seeing Leonard mistreated by her mother, but I Feel the writer's use it as a plot device to bring Leonard's submissive behaviour out, yeah in a perfect world Beverley would be the world's best Mother, but it's the way she is and that's the way the writer's are writing her. As for Penny and the skype, I loved how she diddn't "hulk" out, if this was S3 she would of had a fit and gone nebraska on Leonard's, ass, but they are in such a good place right now, to restore the balance in their relationship, she choose to get even opposed to getting angry.

 

And she knew the best way to hit Leonard where it hurt's regardless if the method of bringing Beverley into situation could be pereceived a bit wrong on Penny's part, what Leonard did too was a bit manipulative, so they both made mistakes. Remind's me of Chandler and Monica from Friend's, after their wedding, Chandler and Ross coulden't find the camera's, so Chandler had too kiss another women on her wedding day, and Monica opened all the present's, so they were like "Call it even!" haha same kinda situation her. As for the TPTB only caring about rating's and that's it, obviousley being a sitcom the writer's are writing here, rating's give the show visibility, rating's are a big part of convincing the network to keep it on air. A lot of show's have either not taken off or cancelled in the first season because of poor rating's, so they are a very important factor, and the fact TBBT is killing it in rating's right now is seperate to quality, I mean Taahm still pulls 11 mill yet arguably quality has gone down hill. I'm loving Season 7 so far, and seeing perception is reality, you are entitled to your opinion of the flaws you see in the show right now, but this is all based on a personal preferance, like I diddn't like Season 5 but re watched it when I got the DVD and now love it, TBBT has so many nuances you just don't pick up if you just watch it once.

Of course it's based on my personal preference, just as everyone else's opinions are.

[vasu]

Red:

I'm just getting tired of seeing Leonard continually humiliated by his awful, awful, awful mother. I got the point during her first few appearances. Now it just seems like piling on.

 

I'm also dismayed that the writers have apparently settled on the tired old "silly, childish boyfriend and the wise, patient girlfriend who loves him inspite of his buffonery" type of relationship for Sheldon & Amy.  They threw away the refreshingly unique robot-couple in favor of a much-easier-to-write romcom cliche relationship.

 

yeah , Beverly's appearance was nothing new...it just repetition of their traditional dynamic.....

 

and the childing boyfriend, patient and wise girlfriend dynamic...looks like is going to continue...

 

clearly in this episode Amy had nothing to be sorry about...

 

 

You make it sound like Sheldon is some kind of monster who goes around doing horrible things to people all the time, and that is the only comedy value in his character, when I can hardly ever think of occasions where that was the case. Raj has done much worse! He was the one who was cheering for his BEST FRIEND to be rejected at his marriage proposal because he had a stupid crush on his girlfriend. And the one who would have slept with Penny, if he had managed to go through with it. Sheldon has hardly ever done really despicable stuff, and he's actually always had Leonard's back, in his own way, when it comes to Penny (point in case, 7x02, where he was worried that Penny was cheating on Leonard, or 6x02 when he tried to stop her from breaking up with him).

 

Sheldon also has several other facets to his character besides not understanding social interactions, that make him funny. Furthermore, I don't see why it is a requirement that Sheldon learns to understand social interactions in all contexts in order to be a better boyfriend to Amy, especially considering Amy is quite the odd duck too. I think the writers are doing a fantastic job this season of showing how you can keep him funny while making him nicer and more considerate. Why is it that Sheldon maturing enough to improve his relationship with Amy takes away the fun, but all the other characters can grow and develop? It's like saying that Penny should never commit to Leonard because a main staple of her character is that she is afraid of commitment and a lot of the comedy was based on the whole "Are we still dating?" thing with Leonard. 

 

As long as they don't get lazy, the writers will find a way to make stuff work without killing the comedy. They definitely don't want their characters to be despicable, that's for sure.

 

oh he's done some really despicable stuff.....it's just that he is never called out on it....and we were never shown the logical consequences......

Edited October 13, 2013 by vasu

[HollyAndOatmeal]

This isn't my favourite episode of the season, but it was still very good! 

 

First post, new to the forum.  Helloooo beautiful people <3

[3ku11]

Of course it's based on my personal preference, just as everyone else's opinions are.

Well thank's for stating the obvious, but I was just analyzing your specific point's, and counter-arguing your opinion's of the flaws of the show. All I'm saying is a personal preferance can make you miss a lot of variables in the show, that's why I said that their are many nuances to an episode of TBBT that you may have missed just watching it the first time. But you said TPTB only care about rating's that goes beyond just a personal preferance.

[djvang]

Well thank's for stating the obvious, but I was just analyzing your specific point's, and counter-arguing your opinion's of the flaws of the show. All I'm saying is a personal preferance can make you miss a lot of variables in the show, that's why I said that their are many nuances to an episode of TBBT that you may have missed just watching it the first time. But you said TPTB only care about rating's that goes beyond just a personal preferance.

i said "It's sad that to TPTB it seems to be that IS all that now matters."

 

That's my opinion. Take it or leave it.

 

How do you "counter-argue" a personal preference? It's not like there's a right or wrong answer. I don't dissect the show looking for variables or nuances. I just want it to be funny and in my opinion it's not as funny or unique as it used to be. No "counter-argument" is necessary.

[Lord Zog]

Nah, that would be an ad hominem argument. I didn't say what you stated was false, just pointing out the hypocritical nature of your post.

Okay, just for the record: the way You're arguing is still just polemic! (Despite the ad hominem argument expression, wich I actually like.)

What should I do from now on? Write "the character Leonard (dito for Penny, Sheldon etc.)" every time I write something about one of the cast, so You can't say "nananaa, You did it yourself!" ...or should I make that "the fictional character Leonard" to minimize the risk that someone of someone accusing me of being hypocritical again, beacause I so clearly want to discus the character of Leonard there (sorry, of course I mean the fictional character Leonard!)

 

This is just stupid.

 

Okay, I do understand the urge of fans to make their fictional heros seem more real. I'm not a stranger to that urge having been a fan to so many movies, series, comic books etc. myself in the last few decades, but most of the discussions in this forums just go a lot too far for my taste.

Perhaps I should just have written that.

And then leave the forum, which I still might do anyway now.

Not so much because of that little fight we just had, that would be childish. Fact is, as much as I love TBBT, most of the discussions in this forum just don't interest me.

 

I just wanted to put this straight, I'm sure You won't miss me too much! (I wouldn't if I was in Your place.)

[Tensor]

Okay, just for the record: the way You're arguing is still just polemic! (Despite the ad hominem argument expression, wich I actually like.)

snip...

 

I just wanted to put this straight, I'm sure You won't miss me too much! (I wouldn't if I was in Your place.)

You would probably be surprised to learn that I mostly agree with your points (disagreement is mostly in terms of degree). It was the dichotomy of complaining about people that talk about fictional characters as if they are real, then in the very next paragraph doing the same thing with a fictional character that caused my comment. I would urge you to stay and if the character discussions aren't your cup of tea, there are many others.

Oh, and to be transparent, if I would have been trying to discredit your points, I would have using the ad hominem arguement. Specifically the tu quoque, but, as you know, it wasn't your points I was having a problem with.

[3ku11]

i said "It's sad that to TPTB it seems to be that IS all that now matters."

 

That's my opinion. Take it or leave it.

 

How do you "counter-argue" a personal preference? It's not like there's a right or wrong answer. I don't dissect the show looking for variables or nuances. I just want it to be funny and in my opinion it's not as funny or unique as it used to be. No "counter-argument" is necessary.

Yeah but that's a personal preferance, fine you don't think it as funny as unique which is not true at all, is your opinion, 99% of people I have read in post's hasve said it is funnier then it has ever been, their is no evidence to suggest it is not funny, guess it depends on why you watch the show, as for unique not sure what you mean by that it seem's as unique as it has ever been, IMO the show's been at it's best since Season 4 the industry and the Emmy's obviousley agree with me. What I mean by the variables if you have a personal preferance to the show, you tend to not understand someone else's opinion, and therefore miss part's of the show that you may not consider funny because of your preferance of the show, where as someone may find it very funny, so it's too subjective too say it's not funny anymore based on your own personal preferance that's all I am saying.

[Lionne]

I love logging in again and finding out I'm popular. Thanks for all the likes, peeps. I feel the love, I really do.

 

Anyone else have to Google what polemic means? I did.

 

To Koops: Okay, some of your points got me, because I do agree that there are some moments when Sheldon displays quite a bit of self-awareness. Such as 43 least season, where he points out to Raj and Howard that, in case they haven't noticed, he has a lot of problems with normal, everyday, human social behavior that most people take for granted.

 

I also find it fascinating that you point out it's positive human emotions which Sheldon seems to repeatedly deny rather than negative ones. Very interesting.

 

I do think that a lot of time Sheldon might know how he feels but he refuses to admit it. I think in this episode we see Sheldon snap right into saying he's angry when Amy gives him permission to say it, indicating he knew how he felt under the surface. Her giving him permission to express it is what made all the difference.

 

However, at other times, I think there's a murky point at being in denial at an internal level and an external level - sometimes I do think Sheldon is fooling himself too, other times I think he's putting on a front but he knows the truth. Nevertheless, the show does a good job at often playing that close to the vest, so that the audience has to debate the issue. Such as the Snow White moment from last season - was Sheldon ignoring her because he had no interest in kissing Amy, or was he concentrating on that computer with suspicious concentration and not even looking at her that implies something more than it seemed?

 

And....argue that one ad nauseum until the cows come home.

 

----------------

 

I was totally going to write more than this, but I'm so hopped up on NyQuil I think I better stop.

 

Where am I?

 

.....GO SPORTS!.....

 

There's no party like a Koothraparty! WOOT WOOT.

 

(faints)

Edited October 15, 2013 by Lionne

[Disgusted]

I think there's a murky point at being in denial at an internal level and an external level - sometimes I do think Sheldon is fooling himself too, other times I think he's putting on a front but he knows the truth.

----------------