Episodes 7.12 "the Hesitation Ramification" (January 2)

[Tensor]

I agree with this, I think people forget it is a sitcom sometimes, whose main obligation is to make you laugh I don't want to see to much drama in a sitcom, I have soaps for that - I really don't think Penny will hit it big in acting or that Lenoard and Penny wil get together for good, as in get married,  until the end of the series - that being said this wasn't one of the better epidodes - Sheldon trying to understand humor was hit and miss, but generally amusing, however, Stuart and Raj hanging out at the mall was completely pointless - the Leonartd and Penny  part was good - they both made mistakes - Leonard should have been more supportive about her part in the show being cut, and Penny should have not proposed to Leaonard while drunk, that was worse than when Leonard proposing to her while they were having sex.

 

Actually, it's only obligation is to bring in the greatest number of viewers and the highest demo it can.  If it can do this by having more drama, it will.  If it can do it by having more comedy, it will. If it can do this by having a combination of these, it will.   You don't want too much drama, others do, some want just a bit.  That's the problem, there are millions of people watching the show, all of whom have their own ideas.  Right now, if they make changes  to satisfy those that don't want drama, they risk losing those that do want it.  Or, lets say they get rid of Amy and Bernadette, and go back to the way it was during season 1-3, as some say they want.   The show risks losing the millions of additional viewers that have started watching.  If you don't like what you see, the best way to demonstrate that is to not watch.  

 

 Note I'm not saying the show is better or worse than it was (I think it was great in the first few seasons and just when it would have gotten tiring staying with the same formula, it changed and I like it even better now.  It's doing it's job bringing in millions of viewers each week, so the network can charge millions of dollars in ad revenue, so the network can make  profit.  Along with Warner Brothers, Chuck Lorre productions and the jobs it brings in for the crew and actors.   Some here say the show should have ended after season three or season four.  It didn't, it got bigger and the show changed even more.  Those people complain about the how the show has gotten worse.  Well, there are millions who would disagree with them.   While it's not a measure of quality, the ratings are an indication of how many people prefer it over other shows.   And, right now, its the comedy show for viewers and scripted show for demo that people watching broadcast TV want to see more than any other.     

[stardustmelody]

I agree for the most part with what you say above Tensor, however, when placed in a specific genre, there is an expectation that the show will deliver a greater amount of comedy to drama balance. I don't think you can say that it can go from being a sitcom to a full on drama episode.   Ratings are clearly important, but also staying true to its genre is also important.  

 

Given the amount of negative comments on this site and other sites around on this episode, I would say that perhaps they found a line that was crossed as far as balance.  It can't possibly be reflected in the ratings when it was a first time viewing and you have no idea whether or not it was going to be that dramatic.   But if they continued to keep it that kind of balance it eventually would show up in ratings.   What is important for the show is to have interns reading the pulse of the viewers so that they can anticipate ahead based on past viewer commentary.  While I know many did enjoy this episode, there were certainly probably near as many that did not.   That means they need to be paying attention and perhaps find a way to make that balance more satisfying to all.  They certainly have had drama in all seasons and I have not seen quite so many negative comments about a "heavy" show as this one seemed to bring up.  

 

All that being said, I think if most who didn't care for it go back and re-watch, they may find they notice more fun moments than the first time viewing.  I went back to watch and found I actually could find it more enjoyable the second time through than the first.  The first time was very much a "downer" for me, but the second time I found myself actually finding it far more amusing.   So my advice to those who didn't care for it is to perhaps give it a second looky-loo to see if it improves for you.  I spoke to another viewer who did that and enjoyed it more the second time and that encouraged me to do the same and see if it improved for me.  It definitely did.

 

Will this episode be one that people will watch over and over, not likely.  It still is not one of the better episodes because there is a lot of disjointedness feel to it, but because it is such a critical element to where I believe they want to go (it is a big transition episode), it was a very necessary episode.  I am not sure it will ever be a "feel good" episode like some are, but it definitely has merit.

[Tensor]

I agree for the most part with what you say above Tensor, however, when placed in a specific genre, there is an expectation that the show will deliver a greater amount of comedy to drama balance. I don't think you can say that it can go from being a sitcom to a full on drama episode.   Ratings are clearly important, but also staying true to its genre is also important.

 

Note I didn't say full on drama, I said more.  We had drama at the bowling alley, we had drama at the morning after Penny drug Leonard off to bed.  We had drama with the New Year's Eve, episode.  We had drama with Priya showing back up.  We had drama with Priya leaving and Raj/Penny.  I could go on, but I think you get my drift.   What I find interesting, is that while Shamy and Howardette have had bits of drama, the "Heavy" drama always involves Leonard and Penny and it is strung out.  I think one of the problems with this episode was that the other parts weren't found as "funny"  (I'll cop to not agreeing with that, as you mention when going back to watch it again).   

 

Given the amount of negative comments on this site and other sites around on this episode, I would say that perhaps they found a line that was crossed as far as balance.

 

Is it possible that it wasn't so much the heavy L/P segments that was the problem,  as the misfiring of the other elements that were supposed to offset the heavy drama?   I don't think they set out to only make it a heavy drama.  I think the other parts were supposed to be funny, and just weren't as funny as they thought.   But would anybody really care how "heavy" it was (other than the minority who hate the show no matter what happens)  if the other parts were hilarious?  Or is it a one time thing and it changes next week?

 

It can't possibly be reflected in the ratings when it was a first time viewing and you have no idea whether or not it was going to be that dramatic.   But if they continued to keep it that kind of balance it eventually would show up in ratings.

 

But that was precisely my point.  They will do what they need to to keep the ratings.  If they start doing more drama and the ratings go up, do you really think they wouldn't keep the drama going?  That said, I think they will continue alter the balance of the drama and the comedy, as the stoyline and ratings dictate.  If they are trying to get a change in Penny's career and her way of looking at how her life is going, something like this was needed, as you said.    

 

What is important for the show is to have interns reading the pulse of the viewers so that they can anticipate ahead based on past viewer commentary.  While I know many did enjoy this episode, there were certainly probably near as many that did not.   That means they need to be paying attention and perhaps find a way to make that balance more satisfying to all.

 

There is no pulse of the viewers, except the ratings.  On a thread earlier I estimated that there wasn't more than about 1800 total ACTIVE people in the various forums (and that's actually generous).   That is one one-hundreth of one percent.  And those people can't even agree on what is funny or who should be emphasized, which reduces the percentages even further. And I'm not even sure TPTB really care, as when there were complaints earlier this year, Bill Prady tweeted how great a job Molaro and the writers were doing, in response to critical comments from entertainment writers.  It's just not worth their time to try to read the "pulse" as fandom is too disjointed, when the ratings give them a better indication and just as fast.  Remember, they are usually two or three episodes ahead when a show is televised.   Those interns would have to wade through all the comments and try to decide which ones represent a trend and which are just bitching about the episodes.   Checking the ratings is easier.    

 

They certainly have had drama in all seasons and I have not seen quite so many negative comments about a "heavy" show as this one seemed to bring up.

 

Look at comments on "The Roommate Transmogrification"  or "The Lunar Excitation".

 

All that being said, I think if most who didn't care for it go back and re-watch, they may find they notice more fun moments than the first time viewing.  I went back to watch and found I actually could find it more enjoyable the second time through than the first.  The first time was very much a "downer" for me, but the second time I found myself actually finding it far more amusing.   So my advice to those who didn't care for it is to perhaps give it a second looky-loo to see if it improves for you.  I spoke to another viewer who did that and enjoyed it more the second time and that encouraged me to do the same and see if it improved for me.  It definitely did.

 

I re-watched it tonight and found I like it even better, but that's just me.  The only part I found less than enjoyable, was the Raj/Stuart pieces. 

 

Will this episode be one that people will watch over and over, not likely.  It still is not one of the better episodes because there is a lot of disjointedness feel to it, but because it is such a critical element to where I believe they want to go (it is a big transition episode), it was a very necessary episode.  I am not sure it will ever be a "feel good" episode like some are, but it definitely has merit.

If they are going to do things authentically, transition episodes are never going to be feel good, they will be significant in retrospect.

[gwhh]

Leonard made the right call. She was drunk, depressed, and humiliated. She will thank him for not saying yes right away.

[Lionne]

I've only been able to watch it once last night, and that was after I saw some of the explosions going on here with negative reactions to the episode. So I was a little more self-conscious while watching the episode, and was surprised to find myself laughing a lot. I enjoyed the episode, quite a bit, really. Some of the lines and such I remember off the top of my head:

 

1) Amy's "that isn't true" line to Sheldon actually cracked me up. I've gotten tired of most of the jokes regarding Amy/Sheldon and their differing views on sex, but this one actually was funny to me.

2) The stuff about Stuart looking like a possum,

3) Sheldon's line delivery on "all of them" to close that scene,

4) Leonard's "I should have sent Sheldon over,"

5) Bernadette "faking it,"

6) the entire scene with Amy making tea, and Sheldon trying to be funny, from "BRAIN LESIONS!" to "Stick up your prefontal cortext" to the pants dropping and pleased waddle,

7) the fact I have always had "kumquat" and "ointment" on my own list of inately funny words - great choices, writers.

 

I know I laughed at more, but those are the ones which stick out in my memory 24 hours later.

 

As for Leonard and Penny, one of the things that I liked this episode is that it made me question the whole practice of picking sides or keeping score between them over who has been better or worse in the relationship. Or even if their dynamic is healthy or whatever. Penny's scene was cut, and she was obviously incredibly upset about it and had every right to be. No matter how unsuccessful she has been, this is still her dream and in her mind, her career. It must have been a huge blow to have worked so hard, to have been so happy about landing this little part, only to have it stolen from her. And then to have it rubbed in that her whole family and everyone she knew in Nebraska witnessed this happen, and apparently it might also be tired into her brother making a break from rehab, and I'm sure she felt at rock bottom. At the same time, she set up Leonard in one of the classic "there's no way to win here" arguments she does (the "do I pick losers or turn men into losers" being the classic and original) where she wanted honesty but at the same time did not. As someone mentioned, when Leonard tries to give her platitudes to save her feelings, she cuts right through that, so he gives her honesty and she blows up when she doesn't hear what she wants to hear.

 

I think that Leonard did give her the truth - she's beautiful and talented, but he messed up by saying she's just as beautiful and talented as a million other girls she's competing against, because every girl wants their boyfriend to think they are the most beautiful and most talented of any other woman on the planet. However, she told him to be honest, and his assessment of her situation was completely accurate. In fact, if Penny isn't aware of herself, the competition, and the whole status of her situation as a struggling actress after 10 years, she really hasn't taken the hard cold look at things which would help her actually make smarter choices and succeed. In fact, as we know, she's based her decisions on psychics telling her to cut her hair or her astrology charts, and put her faith in stuff that Leonard knows full well guide her wrong. (And this fight, and the strength of their difference in opinion on the issue of her chances to make it as a star in Hollywood remind me of that particular fight over her spiritual beliefs in hokum like psychics and such.)

 

So, what can they do? To be honest, I think they are both operating out of who they are as people, out of positions which are partly justified and partly too emotionally charged, and each side has it's points. Penny shouldn't give up her dream if it's been her dream her whole life, but perhaps she really needs to start approaching it far more realistically, and work a lot harder at it. On the other hand, Leonard is a scientist, and he can't help but take a realistic, logical look at Penny's dream and calculate the odds, but this way of looking at things is at odds with his big heart, and his desire to have a more emotionally fulfilling life and relationships than those offered by his family, his best friend, and probably the majority of people in his field.

 

It's actually long past due that Leonard and Penny had a fight over her career, her approach to it, her chances of success in it. Personally, even though I think that Penny storms at Leonard too much and in an oftentimes immature way about this, she's right when she tells him that there are some things she just has to do, and that she has to do them for herself. It's for her own self-esteem and sense of self worth, and there's just some things that Leonard can't, and shouldn't, fix or try to do for her. Leonard knows that intellectually, but at the same time, he sees how upset she gets and how emotional she can be, and he just wants to try to mitigate that the best he can and keep her happy.

 

It's that point which, oddly, relates to the reaction to this episode as a whole: growth doesn't usually come out of a lot of happiness. We do the majority of our growth and learn the most from our struggles. I feel that the complaints about "drama" - all of which had a lot of aspects to keep them funny (the "kick me" sign, Penny's "you didn't just seriously go uuuHHHuhuhuhuhhhhhHHH??!!," or "I should have sent Sheldon over," are a few of the lines and such which were inserted to keep up the levity), go against the fact that this stuff is actually GOOD - it'll create growth, it'll make characters more mature and better in their relationships, that this is just the stuff you go through in LIFE. This episode is just setting up the beginning of, or part of the middle of, the season and the arcs and dynamics and such we've seen for Leonard and Penny. We're just in the middle, we don't know how it's going to turn out of whether it's going to have a happy ending or heartbreaking one, but I don't think there's a lot of justification for throwing in the towel or a lot of handwringing and nailing oneself up on the cross now. See the story through to the end, and we'll see if this stuff is actually stuff to learn from.

 

As for being against drama entirely, or complaints about the rom-com thing, and etc - this show was a rom com from the moment in the pilot that Leonard uttered the words, "Our babies will be smart AND beautiful." While, in a way, Raj and Stuart, for instance, sitting around the mall all day, trying to get themselves to talk to people but finding it too difficult and even old woman with walkers too intimidating, definitely seems pathetic, considering how far Raj has come from the pilot when he couldn't even talk to woman at all. When he stumbled by luck into one-night stands, but couldn't handle a relationship to save his life. Is he sadder now that he can talk to woman, that his goal is not random hook ups, but real love, a real relationship, and he's out there as he has always been, at least trying? I don't think so. Are Penny and Leonard navigating one of the thorniest issues they will have in their relationship - Penny's dream of being an actress - with some genuine emotion and difficult things said and done somehow worse than when Leonard couldn't even screw up the ability to ask her out directly? Look how far they have come.

 

So....I don't know. I found it interesting, and for me, it's gotta be interesting, and then it can be funny or emotional or what have you, but first and foremost it really has to be interesting. I found this episode interesting, and moreover I found it very REAL. I mean, make up some cockamamie thing about Penny marrying Zack which barely, BARELY fits into the timeline, let alone makes a lick of sense, as an excuse to bring Zack back and set up a lot of humor. It's funny, but for me, it pushed believability a bit too far and I rolled my eyes at a lot. However, none of it made me uncomfortable nor hit close to home because it wasn't too realistic. This episode, though, showed some seriously realistic slice-of-life shit, and I wonder if that's what made it so uncomfortable for some. Raj and Stuart's struggle to overcome their shyness and talk to women - very realistic. Penny's despair over her scene being cut, her drunkeness and acting out in her sadness and frustration - very realistic. Leonard's despair over the fight, and the proposal - very realistic. Sheldon getting fixated on something, as he has done zillions of times in the past (mathematically figuring out his life expectancy, and trying to pick up jogging and a new diet, the whole friendship algorithm, 3-person chess, reading 3 books on acting before showing up to his first acting lesson, etc - he does this all the time, how the hell is this remotely OOC?) and Amy getting exhausted by this new obsession - quite realistic.

 

I liked it, and I have to say that after watching it, I'm very curious where they are going with it and I laughed several times. Logically, sounds like I'm amused and going to keep watching, and I have a feeling that's what the writers were aiming for, so I'm all good.

[koops]

I still think the balance between drama and comedy for the show, and even this episode, is very heavily tilted towards the comedy, the way a comedy should be. A sprinkle or a dollop of drama every once in a while does not mean that the show is going to turn into a drama. Even if the ratings were to go up with this amount of drama, they wouldn't suddenly go "Oh, let's turn this into the #1 scripted drama!". 

 

I agree with Tensor that there was a significant amount of drama in previous seasons during transition episodes, and that they often only become significant later on. They desperately need to do something about Penny's career, we've all said that again and again, and that's what they're starting to work on now. Actually, the longer they leave it, the more dramatic it would get, unless people are just fine with Penny suddenly quitting her job to become a housewife at the end of the series when she marries Leonard because she could not find her way into any other career or in life. I'd like better than that for her, and I think this episode was necessary to achieve that.

 

Maybe the reason I didn't find this episode so dramatic is because I did find the other plots funny. I agree that maybe if one feels the other plots misfired in terms of comedy, then you might feel the episode was a big downer. Luckily, that wasn't the case for me. I also went in with very low expectations, so maybe that helped.

Edited January 4, 2014 by koops

[rickfromillinois]

I did notice that it was another episode where it looks like things might not be all sunshine and roses with Howard and Bernadette.

[stardustmelody]

I still think the balance between drama and comedy for the show, and even this episode, is very heavily tilted towards the comedy, the way a comedy should be. A sprinkle or a dollop of drama every once in a while does not mean that the show is going to turn into a drama. Even if the ratings were to go up with this amount of drama, they wouldn't suddenly go "Oh, let's turn this into the #1 scripted drama!". 

 

I agree with Tensor that there was a significant amount of drama in previous seasons during transition episodes, and that they often only become significant later on. They desperately need to do something about Penny's career, we've all said that again and again, and that's what they're starting to work on now. Actually, the longer they leave it, the more dramatic it would get, unless people are just fine with Penny suddenly quitting her job to become a housewife at the end of the series when she marries Leonard because she could not find her way into any other career or in life. I'd like better than that for her, and I think this episode was necessary to achieve that.

 

Maybe the reason I didn't find this episode so dramatic is because I did find the other plots funny. I agree that maybe if one feels the other plots misfired in terms of comedy, then you might feel the episode was a big downer. Luckily, that wasn't the case for me. I also went in with very low expectations, so maybe that helped.

 

I think the reason this one had issues is because the other plots failed to deliver much comedy for many.  I am not saying for everyone, but there were enough negative comments and comments about the episode feeling too "heavy" or "sad" or "depressing" around the internet that it was clear to me that they did misfire on the other plots.  They were supposed to be funny and evidently did not deliver enough to make people feel the balance was there.

 

I agree with the rest of your statement here though.  Transitions are always painful and it is clear the show is transitioning for a future set of seasons as well as transitioning into a new dynamic among the characters as well. 

 

I also agree that Penny needs achievement.   Honestly, I would be sorely disappointed if they had her marry Leonard and be content being a wife  and homemaker mainly because I think part of the issue in their relationship is she feels she doesn't bring to the table anything to offer.  I know she is aware she is pretty and that Leonard is attracted to her, but she also wants him to be proud of her (which he may be in his own way, but she doesn't feel worthy of it) and to feel she brings something to the relationship.  Her insecurity has always been about the fact that her entire gaggle of friends she hangs out with regularly are all brilliant scientists/engineers and she barely managed to graduate from high school.  So she wants to feel she too is successful and can achieve her goals.  Acting is what she wants to be successful at and so yes, I can see this was an important piece here.  She is doing what most people do in late20s/early 30s and that is assess where they are at and how far they have come in meeting their goals.  She sees that she isn't very close at all to meeting her goals and that her goals are fizzling more and more each day.  So this was a key story to tell. I am glad they are finally addressing it.   But it doesn't mean it was easy to watch.  

 

I feel like perhaps we may see additional transition pieces.  This whole season may be another transition one because it is stage setting for a lot of changes ahead in the next three seasons.   All are for good purposes though and necessary.

[ajond]

I think the reason this one had issues is because the other plots failed to deliver much comedy for many.  I am not saying for everyone, but there were enough negative comments and comments about the episode feeling too "heavy" or "sad" or "depressing" around the internet that it was clear to me that they did misfire on the other plots.  They were supposed to be funny and evidently did not deliver enough to make people feel the balance was there.

 

I agree with the rest of your statement here though.  Transitions are always painful and it is clear the show is transitioning for a future set of seasons as well as transitioning into a new dynamic among the characters as well. 

 

I also agree that Penny needs achievement.   Honestly, I would be sorely disappointed if they had her marry Leonard and be content being a wife  and homemaker mainly because I think part of the issue in their relationship is she feels she doesn't bring to the table anything to offer.  I know she is aware she is pretty and that Leonard is attracted to her, but she also wants him to be proud of her (which he may be in his own way, but she doesn't feel worthy of it) and to feel she brings something to the relationship.  Her insecurity has always been about the fact that her entire gaggle of friends she hangs out with regularly are all brilliant scientists/engineers and she barely managed to graduate from high school.  So she wants to feel she too is successful and can achieve her goals.  Acting is what she wants to be successful at and so yes, I can see this was an important piece here.  She is doing what most people do in late20s/early 30s and that is assess where they are at and how far they have come in meeting their goals.  She sees that she isn't very close at all to meeting her goals and that her goals are fizzling more and more each day.  So this was a key story to tell. I am glad they are finally addressing it.   But it doesn't mean it was easy to watch.  

 

I feel like perhaps we may see additional transition pieces.  This whole season may be another transition one because it is stage setting for a lot of changes ahead in the next three seasons.   All are for good purposes though and necessary.

 

I believe the biggest problem the writers have is the likelihood of 80+ episodes they have to fill. From a plot point of view they cannot afford to have LP/SA in committed long-term relationships too soon.. They can drag Shamy out almost indefinitely and have them coming together (physically) at the back-end of the final season. What to do with Lenny is the bigger quandary. They presumably will progress through living together, engagement and finally marriage. I hope we never see any babies on TBBT. It's a question of how to get laughs out of a traditional engagement/marriage.

 

their options would be to create new plot lines or to go back to old ones and fill in more detail than we have seen to date. They can and probably wii) throw curve balls at all the relationships.

 

Above everything else they need to get Penny sorted out with acting or something else. She has to generate an in income for herself, Cow forbid she should be dependant on L.

Edited January 5, 2014 by ajond

[stardustmelody]

I believe the biggest problem the writers have is the likelihood of 80+ episodes they have to fill. From a plot point of view they cannot afford to have LP/SA in committed long-term relationships too soon.. They can drag Shamy out almost indefinitely and have them coming together (physically) at the back-end of the final season. What to do with Lenny is the bigger quandary. They presumably will progress through living together, engagement and finally marriage. I hope we never see any babies on TBBT. It's a question of how to get laughs out of a traditional engagement/marriage.

 

their options would be to create new plot lines or to go back to old ones and fill in more detail than we have seen to date. They can and probably wii) throw curve balls at all the relationships.

 

Above everything else they need to get Penny sorted out with acting or something else. She has to generate an in income for herself, Cow forbid she should be dependant on L.

 

 

We all know that is affecting pacing considerably, although I think they are aware that they may end up having to move from them being singles to newly married couples before the series ends.   We have had marriage come up by Sheldon and Amy (Sheldon thinking he would marry before Howard in S5.22) and Amy mentioning her 4-year plan in 6.01 and then again mentioning it to Sheldon in 6.20), plus discussion of having Amy live with him a couple of times as well.   So I think they are planning more than just eventually having sex for this couple as well.  So there is still plenty ahead for Shamy.  Good grief, we haven't even had a kiss yet so they don't need to continually stall them. There is plenty they can do with them and while they are stalling them, as many of us have said, we would prefer they were working on projects or experiments together than using lack of sex jokes as a means of stalling.  

 

I think they are working on moving both couples forward (and even signs of that this season itself), but these all are steps leading that direction, as well as setting up for the next three seasons.

[Tensor]

We have had marriage come up by Sheldon and Amy (Sheldon thinking he would marry before Howard in S5.22) and Amy mentioning her 4-year plan in 6.01 and then again mentioning it to Sheldon in 6.20), plus discussion of having Amy live with him a couple of times as well.   So I think they are planning more than just eventually having sex for this couple as well.  So there is still plenty ahead for Shamy.

I just had a funny thought, what if the only couple that has kids are the Coopers? I know, I know, the "Our babies will be smart and beautiful" thing. Maybe the Coopers become the first couple to become parents.

[stardustmelody]

I just had a funny thought, what if the only couple that has kids are the Coopers? I know, I know, the "Our babies will be smart and beautiful" thing. Maybe the Coopers become the first couple to become parents.

Stranger things have happened and it would make for great comedy if they were going to write in a pregnancy and baby...they would clearly be the funniest to observe through the process.   Can you imagine it?   It would be hoot.

[Tensor]

Stranger things have happened and it would make for great comedy if they were going to write in a pregnancy and baby...they would clearly be the funniest to observe through the process.   Can you imagine it?   It would be hoot.

Maybe that was the purpose of Sheldon helping his sister. You know, get him ready for when it happens with Amy.

[stardustmelody]

Maybe that was the purpose of Sheldon helping his sister. You know, get him ready for when it happens with Amy.

Possibly, but I am certain that story is not over. I think at a minimum we will see them babysit the nephew or something because they could have easily written he went back home for Christmas and had other funny circumstances at home to discuss in Skype sessions instead.   It was clearly for a purpose.  

 

I know Jim doesn't want to work with children, but if the writers went there, I am sure he would willingly do the story.   I could see this being a final season kind of story, where they are the first to have a child and we watch her pregnancy through the season and in the finale they give birth.   They can give us the glimpse into what they would be like as parents with the above suggested story (babysitting) so that way he only works with a child one episode, but we still get the comedic value in both that glimpse and in watching him go through sympathy morning sickness, measuring Amy's tummy all the time, etc.  with a pregnancy.  He would be so funny watching him deal with learning he is going to be a dad.  LOL!

[koops]

Lenny and Shamy are already in committed long-term relationships and have been for a while. The problem is making the journey to the end interesting without artificially dragging things out. It doesn't have to all be sex, marriage and babies or nothing and I think (hope) that the writers have more imagination than that.

I actually think going the route of having drama over Penny's career is a fantastic, original and realistic way of dragging out Lenny without breaking them up. I do believe relationships work best when people are first and foremost happy with themselves. Penny has lacked determination and direction for a long time, and they touched upon it even last year with Closure and her realizing that, actually, the only thing she's passionate about is her friends and Leonard. This episode was, again, reiterating that point: the only thing she has to show for the 10 years past is Leonard. And that's not a good reason to marry. People were wondering what is holding Lenny back from marrying, and here is your answer: until she sorts her own life out, Penny won't be ready to marry Leonard. And Leonard being there for her through the process, while having some great career advancements of his own (especially if he gets tenure) could create the necessary tension to drag things out (will Penny resent him/be jealous of his success while she struggles?), while at the same time they stick together and work through it, making their relationship stronger. And, of course, this might also lead to a cohabitation so Leonard can show he supports her and believes in her.

Shamy still have tons of milestones to go through to easily fill three seasons. They won't go straight from nothing to the bedroom and from the bedroom to a baby. I said in the Shamy thread a while ago how Lenny and Shamy's progression might be closely intertwined. If Leonard moves in with Penny, the writers *might* move in Shamy together before they even reach any significant physical milestone. It would be odd enough for these two and things might start rolling from there, once they are living together, because it might make the other milestones seem less daunting and overwhelming to Sheldon while giving Amy some payoff, finally, since the one thing she mentioned when questioning her impact on Sheldon in 7x11 was indeed having to live alone.

Whether it will happen this season, or next, who knows.

We have to remember also that the show only does a handful of "progression" eps a season, and the rest are just fun, comedy episodes. If this were a show were the story progressed linearly from one ep to the next, then yes, filling 3 seasons would be hard. But with this format, I think they can do it without resorting to sitcom cliches. That's why I found this ep extremely interesting. To me it's a sign of good plots to come.

Edited January 5, 2014 by koops

[queuetee]

The thought of any of these badly damged people having children is sad. Have you seen them interact with people outside their group?  The best thing about Seinfeld  is that their writers and audience knew what they were dealing with and none of them married and certainly did not have children.

 

The best choices with would be P and L......but anybody thinking the Shelton and Amy being parents is a good idea needs to look at their personalities again and again and again

[BangerMain]

The thought of any of these badly damged people having children is sad. Have you seen them interact with people outside their group?  The best thing about Seinfeld  is that their writers and audience knew what they were dealing with and none of them married and certainly did not have children.

 

The best choices with would be P and L......but anybody thinking the Shelton and Amy being parents is a good idea needs to look at their personalities again and again and again

 

The fact is, people far more "damaged" then these characters have children everyday.

[koops]

While I don't disagree that all the characters, as they are now, are simply not ready for parenthood, there are plenty of "badly damaged" people in real life who go on to parent kids more successfully than "regular" people, and I've seen plenty, PLENTY, of "regular" people IRL who, imo, are just unfit to be parents. What I appreciate about the show is that the writers never treat the characters as if they were animals in a zoo that the "regular people" (i.e. the audience) should observe out of morbid curiosity as if it were a freak show, but, rather, to realize that they are people too, albeit different. 

 

In any case, this is about the show as a story, and what kind of plots are good for the show. I personally don't think this is a show that would work with babies. Adding a baby is essentially adding a new character. While you can have a funny story here and there, the baby-storytelling-well runs dry very very rapidly and you are stuck with an extra character who can't talk, can't interact and has no personality and has to be shipped off to the grandparents off-screen so you can keep telling the story you want to tell with your show. So what is the point of bringing it on in the first place? This is why I honestly doubt any baby will appear on the show if not in the very very last episodes. 

 

 

eta: "A character who can't talk, can't interact and has no personality"... Oh, wait, they tried that with Lucy. (Ok, that was mean, I'm sorry). 

Edited January 5, 2014 by koops

[Chiany]

 you are stuck with an extra character who can't talk, can't interact and has no personality

 

I agree on all this, except the interact part.

I think it does open up a new storyline for writers to explore.

 

It has worked on other shows.

 

I hate to play the "Friends" card, but that show had children on it.

I won't count Ben, as he had a, for most of the time, offscreen mother.

 

But the daughter Rachel & Ross had (forgot the brats name) was there for what, 1,5 season or so, and it was used for some plotlines.

Like when Rachels sister came to babysit, or when they hired the (male) nanny.

 

But to get back to queuetee comment, I agree with Bangermain and Koops, there are lots of examples of ppl who have kids in RL and never should, and vice versa.

I believe these characters can grow into becoming excellent parents, in their own way.

 

And you may call me crazy etc. but I think Sheldon & Amy are the couple (of the three we have now on the show) who are the most suited becoming excellent, yet quirky parents in coming seasons.

 

ps. a final note, I do hope that if kids are introduced during the show, it will be in the last season.

[phantagrae]

They ain't gonna be adding no babies anytime soon, and probably not later, either.

I wanted to add something about the whole "Penny doesn't care enough about her craft to even find out the name of the show she's going to be on" comments. I don't remember if they were in this thread or in the Spoilers thread, but I think that Penny not getting the name right was actually supposed to be a winking joke for the folks at NCIS, making fun of their name, since they're both CBS shows.

[bigbangsheldon]

I actually think going the route of having drama over Penny's career is a fantastic, original and realistic way of dragging out Lenny without breaking them up. I do believe relationships work best when people are first and foremost happy with themselves. Penny has lacked determination and direction for a long time, and they touched upon it even last year with Closure and her realizing that, actually, the only thing she's passionate about is her friends and Leonard. This episode was, again, reiterating that point: the only thing she has to show for the 10 years past is Leonard. And that's not a good reason to marry. People were wondering what is holding Lenny back from marrying, and here is your answer: until she sorts her own life out, Penny won't be ready to marry Leonard. And Leonard being there for her through the process, while having some great career advancements of his own (especially if he gets tenure) could create the necessary tension to drag things out (will Penny resent him/be jealous of his success while she struggles?), while at the same time they stick together and work through it, making their relationship stronger. And, of course, this might also lead to a cohabitation so Leonard can show he supports her and believes in her.

 

 

 

This entire paragraph was truly amazing.. Let me love spookie!

[Guitars1964]

They ain't gonna be adding no babies anytime soon, and probably not later, either.

I wanted to add something about the whole "Penny doesn't care enough about her craft to even find out the name of the show she's going to be on" comments. I don't remember if they were in this thread or in the Spoilers thread, but I think that Penny not getting the name right was actually supposed to be a winking joke for the folks at NCIS, making fun of their name, since they're both CBS shows.

 

The writers probably enjoyed the NCIS reference, but I am one of those that agrees that Penny just doesn't seem passionate about acting.  It seems she's dreamed of being famous, but I haven't seen her passion for acting.  She wants some of the trappings that acting may provide (for a precious few), but that to me doesn't seem like a successful motivation.  I think you have to love acting, and it's that love that pushes you to work hard at it, which may increase the chances of monetary success and fame.  But I don't see it in her.  At her age and what appears like a pretty thin resume, her chances of the big break seem less and less likely.   Finding something to be really excited about continues to be a struggle for her, as I see it.

 

A big TBBT fan I know has a very talented daughter of about the same age as Penny and she has a really strong resume at this point.  Penny's got almost nothing other than the hemorrhoid commercial.  I know we are talking about a sit-com, but we all enjoy exploring the characters as if they are real people, and in that context it seems to me that Penny is getting to that point where she has to fish or cut bait with her acting dream.  In his indelicate way, maybe that's what Leonard was trying to tell her.

 

Referencing another post's comment that she needs to find something other than being a wife and mother, not sure I agree.  Penny has a strong maternal and caring instinct, and her street smarts would make her a good mom, seems to me.  Being a stay at home mom raising her kids seems every bit as valid as the science work that the others are doing.  I hope my view on that life role doesn't come across as outdated.

[koops]

Referencing another post's comment that she needs to find something other than being a wife and mother, not sure I agree.  Penny has a strong maternal and caring instinct, and her street smarts would make her a good mom, seems to me.  Being a stay at home mom raising her kids seems every bit as valid as the science work that the others are doing.  I hope my view on that life role doesn't come across as outdated.

 

That was me. I did not mean to imply that making the decision to be a stay-at-home parent (mother or father) is not a respectable choice. I meant that it would be sad if that ended up being her 'fall-back' option only because she could not find anything else to do with her life and has no other options. I also don't think Penny is, at this stage, much better cut out to be a mother than any of the other characters are to be parents, just because she's meant to be the "normal" one of the group. The others might have some severe social-skill deficits and other massive hung-ups, and act like teenagers as a consequence, but she is also a teenager in the sense that she appears very unreliable, seems to have a bit of a drinking issue and an inability to face problems maturely and take on responsibilities. And a child is a pretty big responsibility. So yes, she's caring and motherly and affectionate but she still has a lot of growing up left to do, regardless of what exactly she might end up doing with her life.

[queuetee]

I see Penny as being giving asnd loving so I point her out as the only one of the three to even consider motherhood. At least Bernie saw it in herself, planning that Howard could raise the child while she worked. Of course Howard is tied with Shelton as being totaly unfatherworthy since he is still a child himself.

 

I don't think that we can use  FRIENDS as any kind of example where a child worked since they all were in the normal range of being able to interact in the world.

 

Shlton, Howard and to a large degree Amy----no way.

[vasu]

Finally , finally an episode from Big Bang with some serious implications and a plot with a good story . The series/drama moments of the show were very very strong. Never expected that from this show.

 

Leonard may have been supportive to Penny in their first scene , but I thought he counterbalanced his honesty with sweetness.

Penny's reactions after her scene gets cut out seemed perfectly natural. Her proposal clearly was insincere  and could be interpreted in a lot of ways. Guess we will have to wait and see...

 

Also I find it hard to believe(especially after seeing her actions) that Penny failed to mention acting as one of her passions in one the season 6 episodes...

 

And where does Penny gets the money to buy all the booze , considering she hardly had money to buy her boyfriend a gift for christmas...

 

Bernedette fake laugh was hilarious(brilliantly acted) and too was Howard's line about faking...

 

Sheldon's plot was meh..boring... There is one thing that bothers me with Sheldon..There is clear difference in acting in the final scene and all the scenes prior to that in the episode. But I think it should'nt be the case , sincerly trying to make Leonard feel better is fine (infact excellent) but he should have the same sincerity in all the aspects(even in telling a joke)... because otherwise it feels like his serious stuff is the real Sheldon and all other stuff is just him just acting...

 

And I thought Amy's laugh was because she was able to "see" Sheldon but not because she found it funny..

And its kind of sad to see how much of different individuals have Sheldon and Amy become... Others complaining about Sheldon's jokes in fine and dandy but Amy complaining about Sheldon's jokes just shows how her character has completely changed.

 

And clearly Sheldon was coming out of Leonard's room in the proposal scene

 

Raj and Stuart acting pathetic is pathetic and bore and repetitive ....

 

 

To sum it up... Drama parts were really strong , comedy parts not so much.... all in all a great episode..

Edited January 5, 2014 by vasu