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The Sheldon-Leonard Friendship


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(thought I'd bring my responce over since the msg I was commenting on was move here)

 

I think we were expected to wonder but after the last PP episode it is quite clear. After all PP in that episode is nothing but a manifestation of Sheldon's own subconscious. Sheldon is not playing it up for anyone when he is dreaming. We see the actual struggle that he is having internally. We see him question himself, the way he treats his friends and the amount of time he spends watching star wars. Clearly there is a real person in there but layers of social ineptitude, exaggerated self confidence and a reluctance to change.

 

Overall I'd say that it is the sweater episode that was out of place. Most of Sheldon's issue is really being socially inept. I'm actually surprised he is being judged so harshly here.

Good point, dj. The key to that dream sequence is how he's going to prove what he said - "But I do appreciate them." 'Bout time you make good on that statement, Shelly, 'cos few are buying that at the moment - here or on the show! One heartfelt hug with Leonard with no smartarse followup quip aimed at Leonard is not enough to convince everyone.

 

I'm with you @djsurrey, though, I think somewhere in that subconscious is something worth being friends with but he has a lot to make amends for in Season 8, starting with toning down the crap comments about Penny ( and to a lesser extent, Leonard) and being fair dinkum with Amy. 

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I agree. I'm beyond excited for the Sheldon/Leonard hug. Again I tried to resist the temptation of reading the taping report only to end up caving, of course, haha. I really do love their friendship.

*sniff* so adorable........

I suspect that the writers may have realized that Sheldon was getting to or there, and this is their way of resting the character. I imagine Jim Parsons was getting a bit uncomfortable with the way he

If the clear condescension were to stop Sheldon would seem a lot nicer. I can only imagine Leonard puts up with it because he has lived with far worse with his own mother.

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Yeah, there are other threads for assassinating Sheldon.  This one is about the (lovely, IMO) Sheldon-Leonard friendship. 

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... the (lovely, IMO) Sheldon-Leonard friendship.

It is wonderful. I wonder about it :). Without the girls it was probably perfect for them as they were. They made great bachelors together. So many complimentary interests. How it survives the addition of the "womenfolk" is part of the mix.

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Sheldon's the anti-hero the monster of the show, he constantly hurts the people he loves, but they let him get away with it because he does not know any better simple as that. Although now he has lost his innocence, he used to fuse a combination of innocence and ignorance. He has now lost his innocence and the fundamental core of his character which was education and knowledge above all. He has lost his ability to approach everything in life with the same innocence and weirdness he brought 1-3. Although I have enjoyed seeing Sheldon's emotional intelligence grow, it has been replaced by this child that make's an appearance now then, he's almost a drunk kid when it comes to how he treats people. Although I don't share the same sentiment re "vintage" Sheldon, theirs no such thing I don't think the show is really that different from S1, its just like a fine wine matures over time, very slowly. But as Sheldon grows he seems to become less innocent and more unforgiving of people's flaws and weaknesses, particularly with his treatment of Penny. The show has become less and less about boy meets girl, and boy and girl dealing with their egomanicial roommate, now a show where EVERYONE has to deal with him. He no longer is mean to everyone through ignorance, its almost like he is aware of it and he still says things, like implying Penny is a nortorious slut is not on, and at that point he must realize what he says is hurtful, that's my point he has lost all his innocence that made his character so endering.   

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Loosing ones innocence is a part of growing up. Late season 7 when Sheldon got mean, it's him growing up. I see him as a 16 year old brat sometimes dealing with all these changes. But as it left off, season 8 should bring a slightly more mature sheldon)

I think they are true friends. While it appears (and is visible) that it's extremely one sided, I do think they love each other and want each of them to be happy (hence Sheldon giving approval of Penny to Leonard's mom).

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Sheldon's the anti-hero the monster of the show, he constantly hurts the people he loves, but they let him get away with it because he does not know any better simple as that. [snip]

 

Actually Leonard and Penny handle Sheldon quite well. Some of us can even empathize with Sheldon on occasion. He is no monster but does have exaggerated traits which get him into a lot of trouble. In some episodes he becomes more a caricature than a realistic person.

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Sheldon is not a monster. Every person was mean to someone on the show. That doesn't make him a monster. Penny was incredibly mean to guys in earlier seasons. Just watch "The Nerdvana Annihilation" and "The Killer Robot Instability". It just takes longer for Sheldon to grow more mature but he is slowly making a progress. He will never get rid off some of his flaws but his flaws are a part of his character too. He can't be perfect: nobody is. I don't understand why everyone seems to be picking on him. I like both Sheldon and Leonard and their friendship.

Edited by Mislav

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Sheldon is not a monster. Every person was mean to someone on the show. That doesn't make him a monster. Penny was incredibly mean to guys in earlier seasons. Just watch "The Nerdvana Annihilation" and "The Killer Robot Instability". It just takes longer for Sheldon to grow more mature but he is slowly making a progress. He will never get rid off some of his flaws but his flaws are a part of his character too. He can't be perfect: nobody is. I don't understand why everyone seems to be picking on him. I like both Sheldon and Leonard and their friendship.

His had 7yrs to mature!! Please...... penny is sensible enough not to insult people as he does. Both times you mentioned, she had a point... Sheldon never has. Massive differences. Ealier season I would agree with you but now Sheldon knows what he is doing. Not buying that crap anymore. No one is saying he is a monster just a dick most of the time.

#genuispenny.notsheldon.

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His had 7yrs to mature!! Please...... penny is sensible enough not to insult people as he does. Both times you mentioned, she had a point... Sheldon never has. Massive differences. Ealier season I would agree with you but now Sheldon knows what he is doing. Not buying that crap anymore. No one is saying he is a monster just a dick most of the time.

#genuispenny.notsheldon.

Sheldon's hero's quest seems to be to become someone's life partner, as he is no longer the outsider looking in from S1-3. Leonard is maybe Sancho Panza to Sheldon's Don Quixote, to some degree. Certainly Sheldon doesn't treat Leonard as an equal. It wobbles around a lot.
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Taken out of context here, I never said Sheldon was a monster in a bad way, just he takes up a lot of room in the show, so in that sense he is the anti-hero and is a "monster". And not sure how you can defend Sheldon by saying Penny has been mean to him and the guys, first off in Nerdvanna Penny was frustrated because thanks to the guys breaking the downstairs basically haha, she had to down the escape, so she took out her anger on the guys but she apologized later. Saying because of one episode this is proof she has been mean to the guys, considering for seven years Sheldon has done nothing but take shots at Penny's character, from her education to her looks to her weight e.t.c. That's being mean and obvious, and when Penny told Howard he would die alone, that was Howards fault. He pushed and pushed, and did not hede Leonard's advice to shut up haha, so Penny said that, because she had no other choice. Howard went too far in that case, but once again in the end Penny made an effort to apoligze ,and Penny and Howard actually had an honest conversation, well aauntil Howard tried to kiss her and she punched him haha. Both times she was making a point, but was not being intentionally mean. Where as Sheldon is no longer innocent, and particularly in S7 he has made some very horrible statements and comments about Pennys so called promiscurity, even though her rate and dating activity is pretty typical. Their are a lot more cases probably several where Sheldon has been intentionally mean towards Penny, he called Penny fat one episode. So trying to justify that it has taken him time to mature, he has had seven years! He's a grown man, he doesn't pick his moments like Penny does, if Penny is mean it is to make a point. When Sheldon's mean its to prove something like how superior he is, or to shed a harsh light on someone's life choices, or personality, its cruel and Sheldon needs to realize his behaviour is not okay. Thing is Penny has been trying to say this since day one, to stop enabling Sheldon, so its not all his fault.

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Taken out of context here, I never said Sheldon was a monster in a bad way, just he takes up a lot of room in the show, so in that sense he is the anti-hero and is a "monster". [snip]

 

I don't follow your logic.

He takes up a lot of room?  Considering Jim is one of the three stars of TBBT  it makes sense his character gets screen time.  Episode one starts with Leonard and Sheldon. Sheldon interacting with Leonard is and has been ground zero of TBBT.

 

Penny has always been important too.  She takes up a lot of room but that enriches the show. It does not make her a monster.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

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You know what, when Sheldon broke into Penny's apt in S6x2 (still think it was weird) and asked penny not to hurt his friend. Hmmmm After watching S7 I wonder if he really sincerely meant it or was he just saying it because yes I know. it's a CHANGE. .. and did not want his schedule disrupted or changed. Sorry shelden uses all his friends for his benefit all the time so when he does something genuine you can't help but wonder, what is the motive behind this gesture. not used to that Sheldon that was sometimes a great friend.

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Oh, please... do you even watch the show? Despite being mean at times Sheldon isn't good at manipulating people. If the reason he wanted her to not break up with Leonard was so there will be no changes he would have said so, just like in season two when he openly admitted that he doesn't want Leslie to use a mainframe at CalTech because he wants to use it for his research that he considers to be more important than hers, or in season seven when he wanted Leonard, who was comforting Penny at the time, to continue playing the game with him and rest of the boys and openly admitted that he doesn't care about her problems. That was one of the times when he showed that he actually cares for his friends although he is rarely showing it.

And regarding your most recent comment on the subject, don't give me that "he had seven years to grow more mature" argument. Character development is a complex process that can take years, especially when it comes to sitcom. Some of the flaws that other characters had also took years to be gotten rid off. Howard didn't stop being sleazy and kinda creepy around women until season four, Penny's commitment issues weren't even resolved (if they even were) until late in season seven and I don't see you making hate filled rants about them (I don't count Raj's selective mutism because it's a psychological disorder and not really a character flaw). This is a Sheldon-Leonard friendship thread but from what I have seen so far the only thing you post here are hate filled rants about Sheldon and his flaws. If you really hate him so much find a thread that is used to talk about how awful he is. As I said, characters have flaws too, they have too, some of that flaws will be taken care of with character development, some not, but Sheldon isn't much worse than many other characters on this show. Even in real life flaws, even serious ones, are difficult to get rid off. Sheldon may not be getting rid of them intentionally but obviously he is slowly coming to his senses.

Also Penny isn't "sensible enough not to insult people as he does". She improved since earlier seasons but she may be worse in that than Sheldon: she insulted Howard, showing that she doesn't give a damn about him in "The Lizard Spock Expansion", or in "The Stang Convergence", when she didn't even try to convince Bernadette to give him a second chance, insulted Leonard, Lucy, going as far as calling her a bad person based on a one bad thing that she had done, made fun of all of the guys, going as far to make fun of Raj's selective mutism, insulted Priya together with Amy and Bernadette (although they mostly just talked behind her back) for a reason that she was dating Leonard while she still had feelings for him, despite the fact that not only she and Leonard were broken up when he started dating Priya and she was the one who broke up with Leonard and nobody except Amy and Bernadette knew that she still had feelings for him, was a bully all the way through school, stole clothes given away to the poor and convinced Amy and Bernadette to do the same thing, showed herself to be a hypocrite multiple times, slept with her boyfriend's brother, disrespected Sheldon's rules in his own apartment, not to mention mooching them off their food and Wi-fi for years. Even if she had a point in that two episodes that I previously mentioned she made her point in a very immature, arrogant abd cruel way. As I said, Sheldon isn't worse than any other characters it's only that every character has different flaws and several flaws doesn't equal a bad character. And I'm done discussing this because we seem to be moving away from the thread's topic.

Edited by Mislav

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Your opinion. My opinion. You make some good points about the other characters but no way are they as bad as Sheldon. see what your precious shelden been up to. Made Leonard wear that jumper. Sorry you dont do that to a friend that was so evil. Using his friends for his own satisfaction. Not cool. Not even going to bother with trying to explain anymore. Done that on earlier posts. A friend is someone who is there for you, supports you and not use you or make them work on your schedule, gets the hump if he doesn't get his way. Like I said. Your opinion. My opinion. Done..

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Edited by Tonstar17

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Tonstar and Mislav, I think the point of this whole argument is that the writers of BBT deliberately throw in scenes or episodes that challenge the viewers take on the OVERALL personality of the characters. Leonard is the nice guy in this friendship who puts up with a lot of crap. But there have been episodes or scenes when he's been selfish, insulting, mean towards Sheldon as well.

Penny is this this friendly accepting girl who has taken this rat bag group of nerdy misfits (Amy included) under her wing to develop their social skills but at times this gets hard and she becomes a bit of a "bitch".

Sheldon's character flaw has more potential for overkill than the others and so it is written that way. In nearly every instance ( and there have been many throughout the series) when he shows true friendship or affection towards any character the writers have to throw in a contradictory action or statement to counter the 'normal' behaviour he exhibits.

As Tonstar says ' my opinion, your opinion' and many unresolved arguments are thrashed out on this forum as should happen when differing opinions are expressed but I tend to overlook the extra line added that keeps Sheldon Sheldon and believe the normal stuff he attempts are real.

This is a solid, real friendship.

-'don't hurt my friend' to me was real.

-The hug was real.

-The standing by Leonard in his three confrontations with Kurt despite his misgivings and complete lack of ability to do anything meaningful was real.

-His concern for Leonard after the drunk proposal despite the kick me sign was real.

-His genuine blessing of the engagement to Leonard's mother was real.

-The fact he admitted he broke Leonard's Star Trek transporter despite all the 'and that's a lie' quips was real.

-the missing Leonard while he was gone was real

-The effort he goes to in order to get Leonard back when they've had their big fights, regardless of whether many on this forum believe it's for selfish reasons, shows this friendship is real.

And I could quote good and bad instances for his friendships with all the other characters too but this thread is about Leonard and Sheldon so I won't.

The point is the show's main premise from episode 1 is the Sheldon-Leonard friendship (along the Leonard-Penny love story) but in that we have a unique individual who is learning how to be a friend. He regresses often because of his massive ego and deep social issues ( and the writers' predisposition to go too far at times) but deep down this is a special friendship.

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Tonstar and Mislav, I think the point of this whole argument is that the writers of BBT deliberately throw in scenes or episodes that challenge the viewers take on the OVERALL personality of the characters. Leonard is the nice guy in this friendship who puts up with a lot of crap. But there have been episodes or scenes when he's been selfish, insulting, mean towards Sheldon as well.

Penny is this this friendly accepting girl who has taken this rat bag group of nerdy misfits (Amy included) under her wing to develop their social skills but at times this gets hard and she becomes a bit of a "bitch".

Sheldon's character flaw has more potential for overkill than the others and so it is written that way. In nearly every instance ( and there have been many throughout the series) when he shows true friendship or affection towards any character the writers have to throw in a contradictory action or statement to counter the 'normal' behaviour he exhibits.

As Tonstar says ' my opinion, your opinion' and many unresolved arguments are thrashed out on this forum as should happen when differing opinions are expressed but I tend to overlook the extra line added that keeps Sheldon Sheldon and believe the normal stuff he attempts are real.

This is a solid, real friendship.

-'don't hurt my friend' to me was real.

-The hug was real.

-The standing by Leonard in his three confrontations with Kurt despite his misgivings and complete lack of ability to do anything meaningful was real.

-His concern for Leonard after the drunk proposal despite the kick me sign was real.

-His genuine blessing of the engagement to Leonard's mother was real.

-The fact he admitted he broke Leonard's Star Trek transporter despite all the 'and that's a lie' quips was real.

-the missing Leonard while he was gone was real

-The effort he goes to in order to get Leonard back when they've had their big fights, regardless of whether many on this forum believe it's for selfish reasons, shows this friendship is real.

And I could quote good and bad instances for his friendships with all the other characters too but this thread is about Leonard and Sheldon so I won't.

The point is the show's main premise from episode 1 is the Sheldon-Leonard friendship (along the Leonard-Penny love story) but in that we have a unique individual who is learning how to be a friend. He regresses often because of his massive ego and deep social issues ( and the writers' predisposition to go too far at times) but deep down this is a special friendship.

I know, and I agree with your points. I just had to respond because what Tonstar wrote in earlier posts came off as Sheldon bashing to me. I agree that what Sheldon and Leonard have is a special friendship and I look forward to seeing it develop further in future seasons. Thanks for explaining the dynamic of their friendship, couldn't have said it better myself :)

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Tonstar and Mislav, I think the point of this whole argument is that the writers of BBT deliberately throw in scenes or episodes that challenge the viewers take on the OVERALL personality of the characters. Leonard is the nice guy in this friendship who puts up with a lot of crap. But there have been episodes or scenes when he's been selfish, insulting, mean towards Sheldon as well.

Penny is this this friendly accepting girl who has taken this rat bag group of nerdy misfits (Amy included) under her wing to develop their social skills but at times this gets hard and she becomes a bit of a "bitch".

Sheldon's character flaw has more potential for overkill than the others and so it is written that way. In nearly every instance ( and there have been many throughout the series) when he shows true friendship or affection towards any character the writers have to throw in a contradictory action or statement to counter the 'normal' behaviour he exhibits.

As Tonstar says ' my opinion, your opinion' and many unresolved arguments are thrashed out on this forum as should happen when differing opinions are expressed but I tend to overlook the extra line added that keeps Sheldon Sheldon and believe the normal stuff he attempts are real.

This is a solid, real friendship.

-'don't hurt my friend' to me was real.

-The hug was real.

-The standing by Leonard in his three confrontations with Kurt despite his misgivings and complete lack of ability to do anything meaningful was real.

-His concern for Leonard after the drunk proposal despite the kick me sign was real.

-His genuine blessing of the engagement to Leonard's mother was real.

-The fact he admitted he broke Leonard's Star Trek transporter despite all the 'and that's a lie' quips was real.

-the missing Leonard while he was gone was real

-The effort he goes to in order to get Leonard back when they've had their big fights, regardless of whether many on this forum believe it's for selfish reasons, shows this friendship is real.

And I could quote good and bad instances for his friendships with all the other characters too but this thread is about Leonard and Sheldon so I won't.

The point is the show's main premise from episode 1 is the Sheldon-Leonard friendship (along the Leonard-Penny love story) but in that we have a unique individual who is learning how to be a friend. He regresses often because of his massive ego and deep social issues ( and the writers' predisposition to go too far at times) but deep down this is a special friendship.

 

Great post.

 

One other great moment this reminds me of is the incident with the rocket fuel and the elevator. Sheldon actually puts himself in harms way when Leonard is in danger.  He takes the fuel from Leonard, puts it down, pushes Leonard out of the elevator, then pushes the button and steps out!

 

 

What a great moment. It reminds me of another friendship. In the movie Tombstone Doc Holiday is really sick with TB but is on the trail with Wyatt Earp when he should be in bed. from http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108358/quotes?item=qt0428067

 

 

Turkey Creek Jack Johnson: Why you doin' this, Doc?

Doc Holliday: Because Wyatt Earp is my friend.

Turkey Creek Jack Johnson: Friend? Hell, I got lots of friends.

Doc Holliday: ...I don't.

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Loved the Tombstone reference! I'm not a big Sheldon fan, but what we have to remember is that Sheldon is relatively new at friendship.

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Loved the Tombstone reference! I'm not a big Sheldon fan, but what we have to remember is that Sheldon is relatively new at friendship.

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And friendships for people with superiority complexes is not easy. You can have lots of positive relationships, have lots of people who rely on you for support, be respected for your talents but having them as actual friends can still be a challenge if you don't know how to relate as equals. It's not easy being a Sheldon!

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And friendships for people with superiority complexes is not easy. You can have lots of positive relationships, have lots of people who rely on you for support, be respected for your talents but having them as actual friends can still be a challenge if you don't know how to relate as equals. It's not easy being a Sheldon!

 

Yet Sheldon knows he needs Leonard more than Leonard needs him.  Thus you have this cavalier attitude in which Sheldon tries to exaggerate his superiority, partly in an attempt to even things up.

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Yet Sheldon knows he needs Leonard more than Leonard needs him.  Thus you have this cavalier attitude in which Sheldon tries to exaggerate his superiority, partly in an attempt to even things up.

 

He exaggerates his superiority only because he has a distorted view of reality.

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As for Penny not giving a damn about Howard, then saying oh but she has grown since then, apart from contradicting your self. Using previous season's as proof, or one episode is just stupid. Just as stupid as using real life as point of reference. Penny treating Howard in that ep is the way anyone would, Howard was a creep, and Penny had every right to come down on him like that, anyone else would of done the same thing. I am sorry but you can find any excuse in the book, but the show has become how everyone deals with the anti hero, egomaniacal tyrant called Sheldon, no way is Penny as bad as Sheldon. Although I think Sheldon cares about Leonard on some level, only when it is convenient to him, same with Amy and that is not opinion but a proven fact.

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As for Penny not giving a damn about Howard, then saying oh but she has grown since then, apart from contradicting your self. Using previous season's as proof, or one episode is just stupid. Just as stupid as using real life as point of reference. Penny treating Howard in that ep is the way anyone would, Howard was a creep, and Penny had every right to come down on him like that, anyone else would of done the same thing. I am sorry but you can find any excuse in the book, but the show has become how everyone deals with the anti hero, egomaniacal tyrant called Sheldon, no way is Penny as bad as Sheldon. Although I think Sheldon cares about Leonard on some level, only when it is convenient to him, same with Amy and that is not opinion but a proven fact.

That was just one of the wrong things that Penny did that I mentioned. I mentioned many others from recent seasons/episodes too. Your idea of Sheldon carrying for Leonard and Amy only when it's convenient for him isn't a proven fact, it is your opinion. Nobody can know what is going on in Sheldon's mind. There were several times when he stood up for Leonard and Amy when it wasn't convenient to him (such as calling out Jimmy in "The Speckerman Recurrence", among other things) but of course your hate towards fictional character prevents you from seeing that. If you have seen season seven you would have known that it wasn't all about dealing with Sheldon, it was mostly about progression of character's relationships. Dealing with Sheldon was part of a humor but not more than in earlier seasons. If you did see season seven, it probably just seems to you that way because that Sheldon thing is growing on to you. And honestly I don't want to discuss this anymore, I already said everything that has to be said, this is a Leonard/Sheldon friendship thread, if you want to assassinate Sheldon, find another thread.
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 Although I think Sheldon cares about Leonard on some level, only when it is convenient to him, same with Amy and that is not opinion but a proven fact.

Yeah, nah 3ku11, can't make that statement - not opinion but a proven fact.

Both Leonard and Sheldon can make some unkind statements about each other - even in the last episode, Leonard's 'That's not a nice thing to say about you......out loud" regarding the conversation the leadership of Caltech had with Sheldon is an example of some subtle crap Leonard ays about his mate sometimes.

Everyone here can find examples of Sheldon's convenience friendship (and I could bring up plenty of convenience examples for our shared favourite couple Lenny too) and real friendship with both Leonard and Amy but neither of them become proven facts. They support differing opinions. I provided plenty of examples above to support my opinion but it doesn't make it proven fact.

 

This show's written to show extremes in relationships between its characters but behind all the sarcastic, narky stuff, they are all real friends (but that's just an opinion!)

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