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7.23 'the Gorilla Dissolution' (May 8)

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Finally it happen, Penny said  yes to Leonard to his marriage proposal, to all Lenny's fans, including myself, perhaps the greatest moment on the show. had to wait seven long years. I think it was really romantic he pulled out the ring spontaneously and proposed to her in her apartment.  Leonard asked out Penny for the first time at her apartment, so by asking her to marry him there too, made it more meaningful.  All the dots connect.  Go Lenny.   :danced:

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My scenario for next 3 seasons:  Penny finally gives up on acting career, then through some event in her life she decides to become a police officer.  I see lots of possibilities for comic stuff with her going to the police academy, rookie cop, etc.  Then, last episode season 10, which I will guess is the series finale, she finds out she's pregnant with twins (the whole our babies will be smart and beautiful thing). 

 

Just seems like the acting career is a complete nowhere gig, and she's not a kid anymore.  Getting fired from that ape movie just about seals it as far as I am concerned.

 

And the big question right now, based on next week's teaser, will Sheldon move across the hall so Penny can move in with Leonard?

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My scenario for next 3 seasons:  Penny finally gives up on acting career, then through some event in her life she decides to become a police officer.  I see lots of possibilities for comic stuff with her going to the police academy, rookie cop, etc.

 

I'm sorry, but to date, Penny's only interest in law enforcement has been crying to get out of speeding tickets and wearing her little black dress to get out of jury duty. What would possibly motivate her to want to become a cop? And why shouldn't we, the audience, be insulted that they'd pull something like this out of the deepest recesses of their colons?

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I don't think Sheldon's advice to Raj had anything to do with himself.  I think his assessment of Raj's inability to be on his own was absolutely true and has nothing to do with "competing" with the Lenny and the Howardette.  Since when has Sheldon ever cared what the other couples do?

His comment about there being pressure to have sex comes from his own perception of pressure, as well as things like Penny questioning him last season, etc., but I don't think he cares whether or not Raj ends up having sex with Emily.  Raj has always wanted to have sex with whomever he has dated, and has had sex on a few occasions, so why would Sheldon care one way or the other?

Even if I go with your scenario of that Sheldon was giving actual advice to Raj it was all for not by the end of the episode. Raj has been on his own for 7 years. Has Sheldon ever seen him with a woman? Sheldon never had to care about the others couples because Raj has always been alone. By what Sheldon saw at the movie theater it appeared to be over with Raj/Emily. I thought so and other viewers must have thought the same. I find it a real stretch that Raj will not mention to Sheldon (and the rest of the group) about what happened with Emily back at his place during the finale. Sheldon's perception of pressure regarding sex is only going to increase after this.

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The reasons I didn't think it was an excellent episode was Sheldon and serious lack of Mayim.

 

I had doubts this engagement would actually be a good scene from the taping report...but boy, was I wrong. I awwwed and almost cried. Leonard is such a sweet guy and although my first choice would not be Penny proposing after losing her job, I think they managed to do it convincingly, applause to Kaley and Johnny on this.

 

I felt really sorry for Raj at first, but I think Emily isn't the kind of girl to hurt his feelings. Beautiful  scene between them

 

Howardette was really sweet and I think the writers are trying to warm up a possible child for them.

 

And of course the best part of the episode was Serial Apeist. I think I finally found someone who's an even bigger fan of Apeist than Chloe...and that's Leonard LOL. Too bad it's over... :girlsad:

Edited by pisquenta

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The reasons I didn't think it was an excellent episode was Sheldon and serious lack of Mayim.

 

Mayim/Amy was unnecessary to the story/episode. The only placed she fit in was at the beginning and that's where she was. Sheldon was just being Sheldon

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Even if I go with your scenario of that Sheldon was giving actual advice to Raj it was all for not by the end of the episode. Raj has been on his own for 7 years. Has Sheldon ever seen him with a woman? Sheldon never had to care about the others couples because Raj has always been alone. By what Sheldon saw at the movie theater it appeared to be over with Raj/Emily. I thought so and other viewers must have thought the same. I find it a real stretch that Raj will not mention to Sheldon (and the rest of the group) about what happened with Emily back at his place during the finale. Sheldon's perception of pressure regarding sex is only going to increase after this.

 

Sheldon has seen Raj with a woman on occasion (Danica McKellar's guest role comes to mind), but he's listened to Raj whine and bemoan his lonely state for years and has heard all about his exploits from both Howard and Raj over the years, I'm sure (though we certainly aren't privy to all of what they must have talked about and experienced.)

 

And whether or not Raj has ever been in a real relationship, again, has nothing to do with Sheldon and whether or not he cares what the other couples think.  He has always considered himself superior to the others, especially when it comes to his assessment of their, in his opinion, foolishness over sex and dating.  While he does not disdain their relationships, he doesn't consider the pursuit of sex or girlfriends to be much more than a waste of mental energy better put to work on solving the mysteries of the universe.

And I'm sure that because of the RelAg, Sheldon considers his approach to relationships to be much more sensible and intelligent.

 

He's never really cared, from all we've seen, whether or not Raj had a girlfriend.  The only time it affected him was whenever Raj wanted him to tag along and play wingman.

 

He didn't care whether or not Raj's relationship with Lucy worked out or not, so why should he care if Raj gets involved with Emily?  Again, it has nothing to do with how Sheldon feels about his own relationship with Amy and certainly nothing to do with whatever the others might think about him being in a relationship with Amy.

 

His comment about pressure to have sex doesn't mean that he cares whether or not Raj has a relationship.  IMO, it's simply Sheldon's opinion about what people think a relationship is about, not that he wants Raj to take the heat off of him. 

 

And whether or not Emily came to see Raj has nothing to do with the truth of Sheldon's advice (and, to put my Pedant!Sheldon hat on for a moment, the word is "naught"--it's all for "naught", as in an old-fashioned word for nothing.)

 

If at some point down the line his relationship with Emily were to come apart, the truth would still be there--that Raj has to be comfortable in his own skin, regardless of his relationship status.  And really, Raj was starting to touch on that the night of the Valentine's Day party at the comicbook store before he met Lucy when he was saying that they needed to stop measuring their self-worth by whether or not they were in a relationship.

 

And I think that Emily is good for him that way.  She is accepting and patient enough to allow him to reveal himself, quirks and all, without judging him, and it has brought out his real, vulnerable self.  And being vulnerable is the only way to really love anyone.

 

I have no doubt that the writers will feel compelled to throw some stumbling blocks in their way, as they've done with everyone else, but I think she may be his true love.

Edited by phantagrae

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Sheldon has seen Raj with a woman on occasion (Danica McKellar's guest role comes to mind), but he's listened to Raj whine and bemoan his lonely state for years and has heard all about his exploits from both Howard and Raj over the years, I'm sure (though we certainly aren't privy to all of what they must have talked about and experienced.)

 

And whether or not Raj has ever been in a real relationship, again, has nothing to do with Sheldon and whether or not he cares what the other couples think.  He has always considered himself superior to the others, especially when it comes to his assessment of their, in his opinion, foolishness over sex and dating.  While he does not disdain their relationships, he doesn't consider the pursuit of sex or girlfriends to be much more than a waste of mental energy better put to work on solving the mysteries of the universe.

 

He's never really cared, from all we've seen, whether or not Raj had a girlfriend.  The only time it affected him was whenever Raj wanted him to tag along and play wingman.

 

He didn't care whether or not Raj's relationship with Lucy worked out or not, so why should he care if Raj gets involved with Emily?  Again, it has nothing to do with how Sheldon feels about his own relationship with Amy and certainly nothing to do with whatever the others might think about him being in a relationship with Amy.

 

His comment about pressure to have sex doesn't mean that he cares whether or not Raj has a relationship.  IMO, it's simply Sheldon's opinion about what people think a relationship is about, not that he wants Raj to take the heat off of him. 

 

And whether or not Emily came to see Raj has nothing to do with the truth of Sheldon's advice (and, to put my Pedant!Sheldon hat on for a moment, the word is "naught"--it's all for "naught", as in an old-fashioned word for nothing.)

 

If at some point down the line his relationship with Emily were to come apart, the truth would still be there--that Raj has to be comfortable in his own skin, regardless of his relationship status.  And really, Raj was starting to touch on that the night of the Valentine's Day party at the comicbook store before he met Lucy when he was saying that they needed to stop measuring their self-worth by whether or not they were in a relationship.

 

And I think that Emily is good for him that way.  She is accepting and patient enough to allow him to reveal himself, quirks and all, without judging him, and it has brought out his real, vulnerable self.  And being vulnerable is the only way to really love anyone.

 

I have no doubt that the writers will feel compelled to throw some stumbling blocks in their way, as they've done with everyone else, but I think she may be his true love.

Sheldon wasn't obviously with Amy with Danica was on the show. To me it's how to compare things between season 3 and season 7. All I know at this going to into the finale things appear to be going south for Sheldon. He's worried about his career. Sheldon didn't like the psychic comment in 7.21, PP died in 7.22, and now Lenny is now engaged. Doling out relationship advice from Sheldon is like Penny discussing physics. You are right to a point that Sheldon doesn't care about Raj's relationship until it has an affect on him. But Raj/Emily having sex is going to make him look bad.

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Sheldon wasn't obviously with Amy with Danica was on the show. To me it's how to compare things between season 3 and season 7. All I know at this going to into the finale things appear to be going south for Sheldon. He's worried about his career. Sheldon didn't like the psychic comment in 7.21, PP died in 7.22, and now Lenny is now engaged. Doling out relationship advice from Sheldon is like Penny discussing physics. You are right to a point that Sheldon doesn't care about Raj's relationship until it has an affect on him. But Raj/Emily having sex is going to make him look bad.

 

What I was talking about in mentioning that fling with Danica is your assertion that he had never seen him with a woman.

 

Whether or not Sheldon's life is going to get shaken up has nothing to do with his ability to see what Raj's problem is--and it doesn't even necessarily have to do with women.  Raj seems to need to be with Howard or someone else from the gang or with some woman.  He can't just hang out by himself, the way Sheldon certainly has been able to do all his life.  Even now with a girlfriend, Sheldon doesn't feel the need to be constantly glued to someone else.  As long as he feels his life is in order (and that's gonna get messed up soon...), he is perfectly comfortable being alone with his thoughts.  He loves himself.

 

But again, Sheldon doesn't care whether or not anyone else around him is having sex and certainly doesn't care if they think he ought to be having sex with Amy.  At worst he'd just roll his eyes at them.

If he feels any pressure to have sex, I think it's all inside his own head as he has begun to consider it, since last season.  But I don't think he's hoping that Raj not having sex will somehow get the others in the gang to pressure Raj instead of himself.  I don't think that's at all what he's talking about.

 

I think, actually, that that line about pressure is more of a throw-away line about Sheldon's natural reluctance to go down that path, not that he feels a lot of ongoing pressure from the rest of the gang or that he cares what they think of his sex life, or lack thereof.

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LOL

 

Your response to any and all criticism of Shamy. Not good at refuting valid criticisms, so you just resort to insults. 

Edited by DaisyJane

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I laughed all through this. Leonard and Penny were delightful, as they bumbled their way to their obvious destiny. Howard and Bernadette in cahoots were "teamPutz" incarnate, and Raj and Emily are a treat. That they are the most direct of the couples quartet is refreshing.

Sheldon's repressiveness has to lead to something.

 

I liked and quoted your post because that is exactly how I feel. Also to expand a little bit more on Lenny's engagement i must say that havng read in in the taping report I was happy that they got engaged but underwhelmed of how it went down, but now that I saw it it was the sweetest most understated but greatest way they could have done it. I loved it!!!!!!!!

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In the whole I enjoyed the episode, even if I found some gags not so funny, except the Penny (in the cage) / Wheaton's scene.

I loved Lenny's scenes. After the development of the past few episodes, the actual proposal was around the corner. And it was just right.

Both of them were in character and the Kaley and Johnny's acting was really genuine. The first part in the Penny's style was spontaneous and funny. I laughed so hard after "I guess, I'm in" and "Cool"! But, when Leonard gave her the ring, it was touching!

Talking of the Sheldon/Raj conversation, it's interesting to see Sheldon curious to know why Raj was so upset about seeing Emily with another man. When has Sheldon ever cared about that? Instead, the whole conversation per se seems a little bit incoherent IMO. Sheldon knows that Raj would have sex with all the women which with he goes out. He says it later in a different way, giving him an advice. "Stick your gun, there'll be a lot of pressure" is told only to make us presume once again that Sheldon now thinks about sex and he feels under pressure. They could write the scene more organically.

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1) Lenny Engagement - When it was first reported to us in chat, I was pretty touched and excited about the idea of the Lenny engagement. The feeling fizzled a little bit, though, because that it has to be paired with Penny losing her job for it to come about. Also, the idea of someone carrying an engagement ring around for years just waiting for the right moment is a concept that, to me, really comes right out of fan fiction - it's SO cliche, it's been done many times before, and so it's not really as touching to me as perhaps the writers thought it would be.

 

I was also dismayed by Penny's line about how she doesn't need to achieve her hopes and dreams to be happy - all she needs is Leonard. That is also a bit of a romantic concept which I'm sure goes over well with the boys - all this beautiful woman needs to be happy is little ole me! - but as a woman, even a whiff of the idea that all a woman needs to be happy is her man just reeks of horse manure, and I hate that that line and Penny being fired from her job was brought into the scenario of their engagement. I've been so proud of Penny for making a serious stab at her acting dreams, and when she starts out the episode having made the decision to do her job to the best of her ability no matter how ridiculous the role is, I was impressed with her and her attitude. I wanted to cheer for her. To do her best at this movie and to take the only role open to her at the moment in order to work WAS a smart decision and displayed real maturity, and for her to decide she wasn't making smart decisions and being fired was fine, that somehow Serial Apeist and working hard was all part and parcel of a stupid decision while to suddenly change her mind and want to get married was her smart decision just doesn't go over well.

 

The only reason I'm not more dismayed about it is that I don't see why getting engaged to Leonard stops her in any way from continuing to pursue her career and, I hope, make more smart decisions regarding the enrichment of her life. If Penny's dream was to be a housewife and to raise a litter of children, then I'd be happy for her for getting closer to making those dreams come true. But that's not her, and frankly, that's not a character I'm interested in watching on television. I think that if the series never gives her success, and down the line moves her to being a woman who becomes a happy, pregnant housewife who says "this is the life, I don't know why I ever had any of those stupid ideas of having a career or life outside of my home" (because clearly all woman should come to learn that's their place and revolving their lives around husbands and kids is what all women should come to terms to be happy with) I'm going to have to burn it all when it's over because that's pure and utter horrific marlarky.

 

And I never wanted to come off the Lenny engagement thinking along those lines, so I'm sorry that the way it came about was paired with the job firing or Penny saying all she needed to be happy was Leonard. If those things had simply been removed, I'd really be over the moon about this engagement. Kaley and Johnny really played this scene so well, you could tell that they put everything into it and frankly, it is the acting that really sold it despite some of the rough parts of it. The pure sincerity of the acting, and all of the emotion that both of them put into every second of it, was genuinely touching and eventually overcomes other concerns in the long run. (I hope. Depends on where the story goes from here.) Whatever that was, Kaley and Johnny are the ones who turned it into gold and almost - almost - made it so I could ignore the clunkier aspects of the writing. So kudos to them for that.

 

 

Agreed with everything you said but this part. To me without a doubt Leonard would give up his hopes and dreams to be with Penny. I understand the way it played may have not been ideal. Losing her job also took away the excuse for not getting engaged. Last week's PP episode IMO should have a profound effect on Sheldon. Instead it seems to have a profound effect on Penny. When L/P were talking about death and regrets Leonard mentioned being with Penny when he dies and his one regret was not saying yes to her proposal. IMO that meant a great deal to Penny. The firing from the movie was caused by Leonard wanting the director to let Penny reshoot the scene. To be honest this movie wasn't going to change her life.  Her reassessing her life IMO should have happened before now. I think Penny will not give up trying to be an actress but I think she finally came to realization if it doesn't happen she will be okay. I think the happy, pregnant housewife idea never occurred at least to me during the show. But then again I am a guy.

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Lionne,

 

Your comment:  "That is also a bit of a romantic concept which I'm sure goes over well with the boys - all this beautiful woman needs to be happy is little ole me! - but as a woman, even a whiff of the idea that all a woman needs to be happy is her man just reeks of horse manure."

 

Your comment seems a bit strident and unfair, as my impression is that the "all I need is you" could apply to either sex.  It's not just us "boys" that might take that view.  

 

I will say that, were this real life rather than a TV comedy, I'd actually share some of your perspective - watching the show last night I thought, well, OK, so she thinks she will get married to Leonard and then everything else in her life will be fine.   But in real life we know that won't be the case.  Once the wedding is over and it's back to normal every day life, Penny will probably be right back to where she is now, wondering what to do with her life, if acting isn't cutting it.  Marriage cannot compensate for one having a sense of purpose, something to be passionate about each day (a subject that's come up before on the show).  Sure, a great partner can enhance one's life, but it can't substitute for everything else that may be missing - that's way too big a burden to hoist onto a partner!  

 

If this were real life, I would have the impression that Penny has made a hasty decision because nothing else is working out.  And Leonard's reaction was quite justified.  The big "will you marry me" scene last night was anti-climactic and understated.  It sure wasn't planned out and, as Leonard seemed to sense, not particularly convincing.  After all the issues and arguments about marriage over the past 5-6 seasons, up to and including last year's Valentine's Day conversation, I guess we were all expecting Penny's proposing to Leonard would have demonstrated a lot more forethought.  If I were Leonard last night, I'd be wondering if the next morning Penny would tell him that she's had second thoughts.  Given her clear past ambivalence about marriage, I wouldn't blame Leonard for wondering.

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Lionne,

 

Your comment:  "That is also a bit of a romantic concept which I'm sure goes over well with the boys - all this beautiful woman needs to be happy is little ole me! - but as a woman, even a whiff of the idea that all a woman needs to be happy is her man just reeks of horse manure."

 

Your comment seems a bit strident and unfair, as my impression is that the "all I need is you" could apply to either sex.  It's not just us "boys" that might take that view.  

 

 

Ironically the Holographic episode was on last night. I'm paraphrasing but Penny made the comment about a boyfriend's(Leonard) purpose is to please me.

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What made the proposal more natural to me was how the day didn't start off with Penny getting fired as much as it did with Leonard being there supporting her in her dream.  He was clearly mouthing Wil Wheaton's lines so he must have helped her by running them with her.  

 

What was basically the most cliche sentiment I got from the whole proposal was Penny realizing that nothing else matters if one doesn't have someone to share it with.  

 

That's pretty much a cliche I can live with in my TV show and/or real life...

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I'm sorry, but to date, Penny's only interest in law enforcement has been crying to get out of speeding tickets and wearing her little black dress to get out of jury duty. What would possibly motivate her to want to become a cop? And why shouldn't we, the audience, be insulted that they'd pull something like this out of the deepest recesses of their colons?

She goes to cop school then she and Leonard move to Princeton, then she turns up in the bull pit at the 12th precinct. KBex and Penny then share beers and complain about their fanciful men, who like space <semi-colon> perfect. Lol :)

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She goes to cop school then she and Leonard move to Princeton, then she turns up in the bull pit at the 12th precinct. KBex and Penny then share beers and complain about their fanciful men, who like space <semi-colon> perfect. Lol :)

 

Cop School?  LOL  

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In response to the whole "Penny is only marrying Leonard because getting married is the only thing that is going to make a woman happy and she is going to have no career and that is bad" debate......

I want Penny to keep acting. I didn't like her defeatist attitude at the bar but loved Leonard trying to encourage her, showing he still wants her to have a career and not depend on him. I don't want her to be a housewife.

BUT

it all depends on your own take on life and love and relationships how positive and negative you look at this scenario and each to his own. Me personally, I'm a 47 year old married husband/father with a very fulfilling teaching career. But I am only truly happy because I am married to my wonderful wife and have my beautiful children. If I wasn't married, I'd have a stimulating life teaching kids but I wouldn't be as happy as I am being with my wife and kids. For some, career is what they need and see Penny settling for love with a man instead of pursuing her career dream. For me, she recognises Leonard making her happy as number one priority ( but I do hope she doesn't give up on the acting - it just isn't THE most important reason for happiness)

Edited by Itwasdestined
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it all depends on your own take on life and love and relationships how positive and negative you look at this scenario and each to his own. Me personally, I'm a 48 year old married husband/father with a very fulfilling teaching career. But I am only truly happy because I am married to my wonderful wife and have my beautiful children. If I wasn't married, I'd have a stimulating life teaching kids but I wouldn't be as happy as I am being with my wife and kids. For some, career is what they need and see Penny settling for love with a man instead of pursuing her career dream. For me, she realises Leonard making her happy as number one priority ( but I do hope she doesn't give up on the acting - it just isn't THE most important reason for happiness)

 

But 1) you're a man and 2) you have a fulfilling career and 3) that's not what I'm talking about.

 

In many cases, I feel that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. And I question, when I look at a situation, if I feel the same about a situation if genders were reversed and I can say that 95% of the time, at least, I come out feeling evenly about either. I don't feel, for instance, that hot 30 year old female teachers who sleep with their 13 year old students are less horrific than when you switch the genders, for instance. Preying on children is preying on children, no matter the gender.

 

The issue of the man working and having a fulfilling career while the woman stays at home and takes care of the children is still a huge issue in today's society, though. In fact, they use the term "brain drain" to describe what happens when the female workers that the companies have invested in and promoted reach the ages between 30 - 40 and get pregnant and basically never come back to work, thus depriving the company of their talent. As a 40 year old, when I look at my wide network of friends and coworkers and family, I know 1 house husband who works at home while his wife is the breadwinner, 5 cases where the woman continues working after having children, and the 100+ of the rest of them gave up their careers, if not after the 1st child, then definitely after the second. I still live in a world where the woman gives up her career once children enter the picture - even when she doesn't originally intend to. That's another huge issue in the business world - women saying that they will come back to work after the pregnancy to stay on the insurance, coming back for 2 - 4 weeks after their maternity leave it up, and then they quit. That's another trend which is very common.

 

I feel that it is definitely still a gender issue where a woman gives up her career at the point of pregnancy or very soon after giving birth, and I have a very wide circle of female friends who have made that decision and struggle with it even years later. A lot of them try to join the Parents/Teach Associations and charity organizations or book clubs or gardening clubs or do rejoin the work force at lower levels some 10 years later when their child is older, but over and over again I hear about the issue of not feeling like they are leading fulfilling lives or living up to their true potential or having anything much to focus their brains or skills and talents on anymore, and it's a loss, and they struggle with it. It is amazing to me how my female friends who stayed in the work force after having kids are active and, while tired, talk of feeling busy and fulfilled while an amazing amount of the ones who stayed homes with the kids have slowly starting to secretly smoke, have affairs online, and develop ever growing wine drinking habits or pick up the latest insane diet or get really into some type of charity work - because doing nothing but living for your husband and kids just doesn't work in the long run. It. Is. Not. Enough.

 

This is simply an issue which affects far more women than it does men; it is way more of a woman's issue than a man's issue. And that is in real life, and if you want to apply it to a sitcom or hide behind the idea this is storytelling and applying real life doesn't work - come on! Everything in storytelling is about suspension of disbelief, and if a show or a book or a movie goes too far with making it impossible to suspend that disbelief because the viewer knows in their heart that things just don't work that way, they check out.

 

Which isn't even to mention the way in which there is a strong trend in literature where the man is a hero and the beautiful woman is, in the end, his perk that he picks up for being awesome sauce. Whereas for women, landing the man and gaining and social and financial stability he provides (and maybe he loves you too, that's your perk) is the end game in itself. Leonard has the career and the friends and the brains - and then he'll win Penny and his life will be complete. When Penny wins Leonard, it will be repeatedly beaten into us that this is mostly to do with her looks, as it was here by the director pointing out Penny was too hot for Leonard, and she will do it without a career and with a group of friend that, quite frankly, she got through him and she was cut off from before when she broke up with him. Penny as no financial and limited social strength and security of her own - Leonard will have to give those things to her, and so no wonder he's all she needs to be happy. She'll score the man and the package which comes with him. For Leonard, he gets Penny, and since there's no package which comes with her (she has no money, she has no career, she has no social status) but she's beautiful.

 

End of story?

 

I am definitely not saying that marriages where the man works and the woman stays home with the kids cannot be happy. By any means. That doesn't mean that this is great storytelling, though, when it comes to dealing with fictional characters and you have given one a big dream, described her as lost in her life, shown her crying over her failures for many seasons and shown her working hard and attempting to get somewhere with her dream - only to toss it as unimportant and not what will make her happy because instead she's got a man to do that now.

 

All I am saying is that this aspect to the scene puts a tarnish on something which I want, rather desperately want, to cheer for and be happy about. Because I want a great love story and I want to see two opposite but equal partners come together - and they didn't give me that. Penny is still struggling and not self-empowered, and turning to Leonard as the smart decision to nail down and put her focus onto without dealing with the other issues she COULD have had all season to finally get some traction on doesn't feel good. And perhaps that is my gender talking, but that doesn't make my perspective even remotely invalid.

Edited by Lionne
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But 1) you're a man and 2) you have a fulfilling career and 3) that's not what I'm talking about.

In many cases, I feel that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. And I question, when I look at a situation, if I feel the same about a situation if genders were reversed and I can say that 95% of the time, at least, I come out feeling evenly about either. I don't feel, for instance, that hot 30 year old female teachers who sleep with their 13 year old students are less horrific than when you switch the genders, for instance. Preying on children is preying on children, no matter the gender.

The issue of the man working and having a fulfilling career while the woman stays at home and takes care of the children is still a huge issue in today's society, though. In fact, they use the term "brain drain" to describe what happens when the female workers that the companies have invested in and promoted reach the ages between 30 - 40 and get pregnant and basically never come back to work, thus depriving the company of their talent. As a 40 year old, when I look at my wide network of friends and coworkers and family, I know 1 house husband who works at home while his wife is the breadwinner, 5 cases where the woman continues working after having children, and the 100+ of the rest of them gave up their careers, if not after the 1st child, then definitely after the second. I still live in a world where the woman gives up her career once children enter the picture - even when she doesn't originally intend to. That's another huge issue in the business world - women saying that they will come back to work after the pregnancy to stay on the insurance, coming back for 2 - 4 weeks after their maternity leave it up, and then they quit. That's another trend which is very common.

I feel that it is definitely still a gender issue where a woman gives up her career at the point of pregnancy or very soon after giving birth, and I have a very wide circle of female friends who have made that decision and struggle with it even years later. A lot of them try to join the Parents/Teach Associations and charity organizations or book clubs or gardening clubs or do rejoin the work force at lower levels some 10 years later when their child is older, but over and over again I hear about the issue of not feeling like they are leading fulfilling lives or living up to their true potential or having anything much to focus their brains or skills and talents on anymore, and it's a loss, and they struggle with it. It is amazing to me how my female friends who stayed in the work force after having kids are active and, while tired, talk of feeling busy and fulfilled while an amazing amount of the ones who stayed homes with the kids have slowly starting to secretly smoke, have affairs online, and develop ever growing wine drinking habits or pick up the latest insane diet or get really into some type of charity work - because doing nothing but living for your husband and kids just doesn't work in the long run. It. Is. Not. Enough.

This is simply an issue which affects far more women than it does men; it is way more of a woman's issue than a man's issue. And that is in real life, and if you want to apply it to a sitcom or hide behind the idea this is storytelling and applying real life doesn't work - come on! Everything in storytelling is about suspension of disbelief, and if a show or a book or a movie goes too far with making it impossible to suspend that disbelief because the viewer knows in their heart that things just don't work that way, they check out.

Which isn't even to mention the way in which there is a strong trend in literature where the man is a hero and the beautiful woman is, in the end, his perk that he picks up for being awesome sauce. Whereas for women, landing the man and gaining and social and financial stability he provides (and maybe he loves you too, that's your perk) is the end game in itself. Leonard has the career and the friends and the brains - and then he'll win Penny and his life will be complete. When Penny wins Leonard, it will be repeatedly beaten into us that this is mostly to do with her looks, as it was here by the director pointing out Penny was too hot for Leonard, and she will do it without a career and with a group of friend that, quite frankly, she got through him and she was cut off from before when she broke up with him. Penny as no financial and limited social strength and security of her own - Leonard will have to give those things to her, and so no wonder he's all she needs to be happy. She'll score the man and the package which comes with him. For Leonard, he gets Penny, and since there's no package which comes with her (she has no money, she has no career, she has no social status) but she's beautiful.

End of story?

Obviously hit a nerve, Lionne. Happens in forums.

The last thing I like to do on forums is get into battles with people who have polar opposite opinions to me.

But

I don't like the assumption that because I'm a man, I apparently can't have an opinion on this one.

To start with I said I want Penny to have a career.

Not that I have to give my life story, although I did offer some up, my wife is not home with the kids - she has a job ( part time , her choice) AND is one of those women who is president of 3 volunteer committees because she IS fulfilled by these contributions - more than her job.

I work in one of the few industries - teaching - absolutely dominated by female workforce - and while there are probably more male principals than female - I have spent 26 years working with female leaders and teachers who both work and raise families. We all have different circles of friends and co-workers - yours is different to mine and I did say we all come from different points of view which Is fine. I expressed mine and you yours.

I absolutely agree with you that for many women in the workforce there are issues - I see it every day as a male teacher in a 90% female workforce.

But I still don't know why women who CHOOSE the family route - and don't tell me no one does - have to be made to feel less important because they do that instead of career. I know I'm only a man but I know many women very fulfilled with family commitment instead of career but also many who choose both and I respect all of them.

I know there is a justifiable and accurate perception that Chuck Lorre has a sexist streak in his shows and many are not happy with the path being written for the Penny character, me being one of them if the career option is taken off the table. It doesn't suit having her the only one in the show without success. But there are people out there who choose the path she is taking. But again I'm a man so I have a bias towards that choice.

End of argument for me. I don't get involved in circular arguments. (I haven't addressed every point you make because I don't have to.) I'll move on to another show topic when it comes up.

Edited by Itwasdestined
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