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7.23 'the Gorilla Dissolution' (May 8)


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ItWasDestined - I think you're new here and you don't know me very well. If you hit a nerve, my post probably would have been 5 times as long, trust me. I also embrace discussion and I do appreciate talking over this issue with you. I don't discredit your opinion because you're a man, and I'm sorry to give that impression - it wasn't exactly what I was going for, but it is a touchy issue.

 

Here is the crux of it: As a man, the idea that "all you need to be happy as a woman is your man" is not an idea (or mythology) that anyone is trying to sell to you. Because you're the man. And this doesn't mean that you can't have an opinion about it, nothing is stopping you from that. It's just that the message that "all you need to be happy is your man" is targeted at a specific gender, and I'm not sure if "all you need to be happy is your woman" has the same connotations when it's run in reverse, and that's not the message that the Lenny relationship is sending anyway, and I'm trying to focus specifically on that.

 

I appreciate your clarifying certain points and I think that for the most part we agree and are on the same page - Penny's lack of success is a worrisome part of the show and my point, really, is simply that it taints my joy about the proposal itself, which isn't something I want out of the story I love. I want to be more overjoyed than that, and really cheering for the relationship which is supposed to occupy the heart of the show, and I have issues being able to do that 100% when I can't get behind the way Penny, as a woman, is being written by a trio of men along classic lines of being considered the "prize" and "perk" that the nerdy guy scores.

 

As for not addressing all my points because you don't have to....I agree? You don't have to?

Edited by Lionne

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Can we talk about Howard mimicking Bernadette's voice again? That was one of my favorite moments from season 6 and I'm so happy he did it again. I almost cried I laughed so hard. I loved those scenes

1) Lenny Engagement - When it was first reported to us in chat, I was pretty touched and excited about the idea of the Lenny engagement. The feeling fizzled a little bit, though, because that it has t

Kaley did such a good job with her facial expressions during the proposal.

Lio and ItWasDestined. Interesting discussion. My only question and it doesn't just relate to Penny but also to Amy. Would you rather have a successful career like Amy and have the love of your life possibly never return that love or would you rather be Penny who may never have the success she wants in acting but have the love of her life worship the ground she stands on? (I get ideally Amy and Penny would want both)

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Lio and ItWasDestined. Interesting discussion. My only question and it doesn't just relate to Penny but also to Amy. Would you rather have a successful career like Amy and have the love of your life possibly never return that love or would you rather be Penny who may never have the success she wants in acting but have the love of her life worship the ground she stands on? (I get ideally Amy and Penny would want both)

 

Though I often find Amy desperate and pathetic, in the long run I'd choose hder. Her work experience and education are something she can always take with her, have to her name. Relationships can end at the drop of a hat, and then what the hell would you have to show for yourself? Penny's mention of her friends being the biggest passion in her life was one of the most depressing things ever said on the show. Do you think Bernadette has that same passion for their friendship? Sheldon? Hell no.

 

You need to have something for yourself in order to be fulfilled. If Penny were to adopt the mindset that all she needs is Leonard, she'll wake up one day and realize she's empty, likely resorting to engaging in one of the vices Lionne mentioned above. I've seen it several times myself. Those marriages fail, if not in a formal divorce than in extreme emotional distance. There's no joy in being a Stepford/Trophy Wife. 

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Thanks Lionne. I've read lots of your posts ( a long time lurker) and yes you do have a lot to say.;)

I'm with you 100% on the Penny plot writing. I so want her to have a fulfilling career ( doesn't have to be equal with Leonard, but fulfilling just like my wife's situation) and I think I've made that clear. I hate the stupid Penny the writers give us sometimes. I wanted both college success Penny and actress success Penny not depressed dependent Penny.

What I think the proposal discussion centered on was Linking back to the I'm passionate about you speech in season 6 ep 21(?) when Penny expressed that she once only thought about the big successful career dream and now realised she can have that and Leonard. Also their fight after NCIS Cut when she put Leonard on the spot by asking if he believed she would win awards and be a star. Even in this current episode she was seeing herself as the 'star' of Apeist. I think (written by the writers ) in her mind that stardom is not number one now , loving Leonard is.

What I want to see in season 8 is Penny looking for a working career not stardom. Leonard is no Stephen hawking but has a good job doing something worthwhile. Let her succeed in auditions, get regular small roles , some work in theatre maybe,a recurring advertisement role. Fulfilling work ( after 26 years I'm still a teacher not a principal - unusual for a male but it's fulfilling for me) for Penny without the too hard to achieve goal of being Meryl Streep or Julia Roberts.

I want to see her at work a la Streetcar not sitting around drinking wine at the breakfast bar with the girls or cooking crunchy spaghetti every episode.

If we get stay at home Penny planning her wedding instead I'll be leading the attack with you on your crusade. That's a bad plot plan by the writers.

Sidebar: as for the man thing, being in the rare female dominated world of Primary school teaching, I get the "you're a man" thing a lot ( and it was your opening salvo!) I'm very thick skinned but that can hit my nerve occasionally. All is forgiven!;)

Lio and ItWasDestined. Interesting discussion. My only question and it doesn't just relate to Penny but also to Amy. Would you rather have a successful career like Amy and have the love of your life possibly never return that love or would you rather be Penny who may never have the success she wants in acting but have the love of her life worship the ground she stands on? (I get ideally Amy and Penny would want both)

In real life it shouldn't have to be one OR the other. I love that my wife and kids love me but I still need the cerebral stimulation of my job.

In the world of sitcoms, writers don't seem to have a preference as evident with both the Shamy/Lenny arcs. What would be unique is having the gender roles reversed - Amy continuing at work while an undecided Sheldon sits at home watching Firefly reruns drinking virgin Cuban libres!

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Though I often find Amy desperate and pathetic, in the long run I'd choose hder. Her work experience and education are something she can always take with her, have to her name. Relationships can end at the drop of a hat, and then what the hell would you have to show for yourself? Penny's mention of her friends being the biggest passion in her life was one of the most depressing things ever said on the show. Do you think Bernadette has that same passion for their friendship? Sheldon? Hell no.

 

You need to have something for yourself in order to be fulfilled. If Penny were to adopt the mindset that all she needs is Leonard, she'll wake up one day and realize she's empty, likely resorting to engaging in one of the vices Lionne mentioned above. I've seen it several times myself. Those marriages fail, if not in a formal divorce than in extreme emotional distance. There's no joy in being a Stepford/Trophy Wife.

I agree that her friends should not be her biggest passion. I'm not sure she really meant it what she said. not one of the better episodes for Penny. All of Amy's experience and education though didn't make her happy. Meeting Sheldon and the rest did make her happier.. in regards to

Penny she quite honestly should have been engaged to Leonard a while ago. Waiting for the perfect moment may never come and she sort of realized that. Leonard in this and recent episodes was 100 percent behind her career. Being engaged to her is not going to change that. IMO all she needs is Leonard is not going last probably past this episode. But there is no rule you have to have something for yourself before you get engaged.

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IWD - I can completely see where you are coming from since you do work in one of the few female dominated industries. I was definitely not trying to pass off your opinion as coming from a male perspective, and honestly, the fact you have a career (as does your wife) was my opening salvo because part of this is about switching the gender roles and such.

 

Like I stopped to say in editing my post above, with Leonard and Penny specifically, Penny says that all she needs to be happy is Leonard. I just feel that the message is specifically targeted to women in this regard. I also feel that if this was reversed, you would still be excluded as you have a career. If, for instance, the message was "all a man needs to be happy is his woman," and we flipped that as a message on you, well, unlike Penny, you have a career. Ergo, even though you are in a happy relationship with your wife, and I deeply admire that and I love the fact she and your children are your #1 priority, you're not a house husband and you have a career which is very fulfilling to you.

 

And I actually come from a situation where both my parents were teachers, and received glowing reviews at all times. Until my Mom got pregnant, and suddenly she got horrible reviews and was accused of being a bad teacher and basically retired to become a housewife while my Dad continued teaching. I understand that being a woman who got attacked and suddenly treated and seen differently once she got pregnant was common, especially back in my Mom's time, although to this day I'm not really sure why it happens. But even in a female dominated profession like teaching, my Mom was well received until her pregnancy and then things turned around on her and made her step back from her career permanently. Growing up, she was active and busy and meddling and brilliant and I spent a lot of time wishing she would go back to work and put all of her considerable talents to good use, rather than a lot of the mucking around in the PTA world and various things she dabbled in, such as my life, way too much. ;) My Mom had way too much energy and talent and brilliance to share which never really went anywhere, and I feel the same about Penny as well. I want more for her, like I did for my Mom, and while she and my Dad have been happily married for over 50 years and I don't think she has any regrets, sometimes I look at her passion for her hobbies and, for instance, her incredible photography, and wish that she had managed to find a career or something to put her efforts towards for nothing but her own satisfaction.

 

As for the things about Penny - your comments about being a "star" also touch on an issue I have with Penny's general thinking. All of this time, she's expressed more of desire to be famous, win awards, and live a glamorous life than any passion for acting itself. She doesn't talk about the craft, she doesn't spend time reading screen plays, and she doesn't spend time acting out her favorite scenes from movies. She's watching TV and movies with the boys often, but never makes a lot of commentary about what she's watching as if she's studying the performances she's witnessing and trying to learn. So I'm not always sold on the idea that she's all that passionate about acting as much as she set out from Nebraska to prove something, and dreams of showing that she's worth something and will win adoration and attention and money and lots of free shoes. Penny seems to hold an idea that if she becomes famous and people adore her, it will prove something about her worth to people back home, and I wonder what that is all about and of course it's not something that the show has explored to much since Beverly identified that her locus of identity was external to herself.

 

Yet I can't shake the feelings that there's so much more to Penny, and that she's determined to succeed somehow at something which has meaning to her, and I still want to see her do that. I mean, the girl can't even cook spaghetti right? The only thing we get reminded of, on a constant basis, is that she's hot. It drives me crazy that this seems to be all that Penny is expected to bring to the table. Between Penny's value apparently coming solely from her appearance and the fact she needs nothing to be happy but a man, she's just come to personify the absolute worst possible messages that our culture projects onto women and that's really not the show nor the character which I originally signed up for. I don't know if they can or will turn this around, but we can always cross our fingers and hope we won't have to march on down to the WB studios with torches and pitchforks demanding this show get its act together.

Edited by Lionne
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I thought it was a very good episode. Overall I thought the actual proposal was very typical Penny Leonard in nature.

 

I also wonder if the psychic's advice for Sheldon will perhaps instead work for Penny. Perhaps getting her relationship on a firmer footing will get her in a good frame of mind when real career opportunity knocks.

 

Perhaps just as Raj needs to stop thinking each person he dates is the woman for him Penny has to stop thinking each little part is going to be the one that catapults her career. To be successful A person has to enjoy the journey and not just crave the destination.

 

The fat jokes have gone on too much.

Edited by djsurrey
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I thought it was a very good episode. Overall I thought the actual proposal was very typical Penny Leonard in nature.

 

I also wonder if the psychic's advice for Sheldon will perhaps instead work for Penny. Perhaps getting her relationship on a firmer footing will get her in a good frame of mind when real career opportunity knocks.

 

Perhaps just as Raj needs to stop thinking each person he dates is the woman for him Penny has to stop thinking each little part is going to be the one that catapults her career. A person has to enjoy the journey and not just crave the destination.

 

The fat jokes have gone on too much.

 

This is what I've been saying ever since we heard about the psychic.

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I thought the episode was pretty good.  I am glad to see that Penny finally agreed to marry Leonard.  I liked the way they showed Penny coming to that conclusion when she stated that she needed to start making smart decisions about her life.  However, I found the way that they wrote Leonard's response to be whiny.  They also showed him at the movie set still seeing himself as not good enough for Penny when the director asked "isn't she to hot for you?" and Leonard agreed.  Last year they were showing Leonard starting to gain some confidence, I wish that the writers would portray him more in that way. 

 

Ads for the rest of the episode, I thought the part with Raj and Emily was very good, in fact I thought it was better written than the Lenny engagement.  The interaction between Sheldon and Raj was pretty good. 

 

I did not care for the Howard/Bernie/Howard's mom storyline.  More and more it seems that Bernadette is becoming more self centered and unlikeable.  I really did not care for her comments about comparing caring for Howard's mom to caring for a child. 

 

Overall, I thought the episode was pretty good though I was hoping that there would be a little more climax to Lenny getting engaged.  I hope that the wedding episode will be better. 

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Hello, I'm still a bit new to the forum, so still finding my feet a bit.  I can't comment on the whole episode as I haven't seen it, but with regard to the Lenny engagement overall I'm pleased that its happened.  However after some reflection, I find myself agreeing with some of the comments here that its concerning how the proposal came off the back of Penny being fired.  Personally I've always wanted for Penny to gain success in her acting career, its her dream and been a major part of the storyline since S1.  I actually find her lack of success after seven seasons a little surprising.   I think what I'm trying to say is I would have been happier if the proposal had come as a result of a positive rather than a negative i.e. she gets a successful acting part, but realises that while her career makes her happy, ultimately its Leonard that give  her the greatest happiest.  Please know that I'm not saying that I'm right here , it simply just how I feel.... 

 

Overall the scene was very well acted, Kaley and Johnny are a joy to watch.  It will be interesting to see how the Lenny relationship plays out over subsequent seasons,  (I've got a feeling there could be a few bumps along the way to the alter) and what happens in terms of Penny's acting career.

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[snip]

 

Like I stopped to say in editing my post above, with Leonard and Penny specifically, Penny says that all she needs to be happy is Leonard. I just feel that the message is specifically targeted to women in this regard. [snip]

 

[snip] Penny seems to hold an idea that if she becomes famous and people adore her, it will prove something about her worth to people back home, and I wonder what that is all about and of course it's not something that the show has explored to much since Beverly identified that her locus of identity was external to herself.

 

Yet I can't shake the feelings that there's so much more to Penny, and that she's determined to succeed somehow at something which has meaning to her, and I still want to see her do that. I mean, the girl can't even cook spaghetti right? The only thing we get reminded of, on a constant basis, is that she's hot. It drives me crazy that this seems to be all that Penny is expected to bring to the table. Between Penny's value apparently coming solely from her appearance and the fact she needs nothing to be happy but a man, she's just come to personify the absolute worst possible messages that our culture projects onto women and that's really not the show nor the character which I originally signed up for. I don't know if they can or will turn this around, but we can always cross our fingers and hope we won't have to march on down to the WB studios with torches and pitchforks demanding this show get its act together.

 

I can't deny you are making some valid points. Combining the comic book store, the Killer Gorilla Movie and the BBT guys fascination with adventure fantasy and it is not too surprising that Penny ends up being used as window dressing in some episodes. Reminds me of the Edgar Rise Burroughs book covers I used to see in the adventure fantasy section when I was a teenager. TBBT is not as bad as that for the most part but they seem to pay some homage to having a beautiful blond who on occasion shows a lot of cleavage (and is a bit of a stock character without a last name). It seems like the response to criticism was not to change Penny so much as to introduce a couple of career minded women on the series. I really do like the addition of Amy and Bernadette.

 

With both Sheldon and Penny we seem to get exaggerated personalities as though they are caricatures the way nerd Leonard sees them more than as real people. Sheldon being even more exaggerated than Penny.

 

aprincessofmars.jpg?w=286&h=410 example Edgar Rise Burroughs book cover

Edited by djsurrey
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It was great.

 

The challenge for the writers now is where to go after the engagement!

 

I can see one more season of the show maybe and then we'll all need a new Thursday night escape!

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One thing I enjoyed about the episode is that we saw Penny at work as am actress. She was prepared, she even asked the idiot director if they could do another take (which aided in her firing). I don't think we've seen the last of Serial Ape-ist 2.

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It was great.

 

The challenge for the writers now is where to go after the engagement!

 

I can see one more season of the show maybe and then we'll all need a new Thursday night escape!

You do know that the show has been renewed through season 10, don't you?

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I can't deny you are making some valid points. Combining the comic book store, the Killer Gorilla Movie and the BBT guys fascination with adventure fantasy and it is not too surprising that Penny ends up being used as window dressing in some episodes. Reminds me of the Edgar Rise Burroughs book covers I used to see in the adventure fantasy section when I was a teenager. TBBT is not as bad as that for the most part but they seem to pay some homage to having a beautiful blond who on occasion shows a lot of cleavage (and is a bit of a stock character without a last name). It seems like the response to criticism was not to change Penny so much as to introduce a couple of career minded women on the series. I really do like the addition of Amy and Bernadette.

 

With both Sheldon and Penny we seem to get exaggerated personalities as though they are caricatures the way nerd Leonard sees them more than as real people. Sheldon being even more exaggerated than Penny.

Penny represents many things, and usually those things are around some idea of "normality". She was sometimes window dressing as you say and once for Leonard she was the enigmatic prize atop a slippery pole. She is not every woman, but she takes regularly takes a turn at representing some part of the "average" in the middle of this set of extraordinary achievers. She has even played at being the pretty "mean girl" - an enemy of the nerd faction. Maybe her journey, like Sheldon's, will take longer to run. This is just a waypoint.

It was not rational to keep L/P together without them making some kind of "normal" progression. She's a normal person coming off a low educational and socio-economic base in a country where inequality just keeps on keeping on and she has normal problems, like getting a good job and paying the rent. Bernie and Amy are carrying the flag for the empowered women (Amy's problems aside). It's entirely reasonable that Penny not immediately leap into the limelight or find success - as Lionne has said she hasn't done the preparation, and maybe she hasn't had the luck or made the connections which are so important. I don't think they are done with her changes but within the confines of the genre where the show runs in syndication and people can't always keep track of developments, I don't think they can reinvent her vocation that much just yet. I have no idea, maybe over the course of the next season or not until closer to the end of the show. It would be disappointing if they stopped her changes now.

Also why do we keep thinking the story stops at the altar? <icon:rhetorical>. Get married, get over it and then get on with it, is what usually happens.

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One thing I enjoyed about the episode is that we saw Penny at work as am actress. She was prepared, she even asked the idiot director if they could do another take (which aided in her firing). I don't think we've seen the last of Serial Ape-ist 2.

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I so hope we haven't seen the end of Serial Apeist. Since she did all her part, I wish the movie is a success, cult classic, and in season 8 she has to make publicity appearances. That movie is such a good source of comedy.

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What kind of beer where they drinking at the bar after getting fired. I did not recognize the label or bottle design?

 

I think it was Sierra Nevada Pale Ale for Penny and Wil and Leonard had a Negra Modelo (yum).  

Hmmm...is it sad that I know that? ;-)

Edited by bhreg
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I think it was Sierra Nevada Pale Ale for Penny and Wil and Leonard had a Negra Modelo (yum).  

Hmmm...is it sad that I know that? ;-)

Wil tweeted that he asked the props people to change bottles. It seems that the bottles that were first used were from a major brewery ( he didn't say which one) and as he is a big craft beer fan, he wanted craft beers so he didn't catch hell for using a non-craft beer. Just this week he was in the brewery, working on a batch. He had a picture of the 40 pounds of hops they were going to use in the batch that they were working on.

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Where you see that at?

Wil tweeted that he asked the props people to change bottles. It seems that the bottles that were first used were from a major brewery ( he didn't say which one) and as he is a big craft beer fan, he wanted craft beers so he didn't catch hell for using a non-craft beer. Just this week he was in the brewery, working on a batch. He had a picture of the 40 pounds of hops they were going to use in the batch that they were working on.

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IWD - I can completely see where you are coming from since you do work in one of the few female dominated industries. I was definitely not trying to pass off your opinion as coming from a male perspective, and honestly, the fact you have a career (as does your wife) was my opening salvo because part of this is about switching the gender roles and such.

 

Like I stopped to say in editing my post above, with Leonard and Penny specifically, Penny says that all she needs to be happy is Leonard. I just feel that the message is specifically targeted to women in this regard. I also feel that if this was reversed, you would still be excluded as you have a career. If, for instance, the message was "all a man needs to be happy is his woman," and we flipped that as a message on you, well, unlike Penny, you have a career. Ergo, even though you are in a happy relationship with your wife, and I deeply admire that and I love the fact she and your children are your #1 priority, you're not a house husband and you have a career which is very fulfilling to you.

 

Lionne, I think we have come to agree on several points but the highlighted text in your comment brings me back to my original post's premise that it depends on our own perspective whether we see the way the proposal panned out as positive or negative.

 

You have paraphrased what Penny said based on your perspective - it is not the actual words she says. What she actually says is " I finally realised I don't need to be famous or have some big career to be happy" to which Leonard responds "and what do you need" followed by Penny's " You, you stupid pop tart!"

 

You've interpreted that as all she needs to be happy is Leonard. 

 

I can just as easily interpret it from another perspective as meaning "I don't have to be the most successful big name star and have fame and fortune ( which is probably why she did leave Nebraska and come to LA, much like many starstruck, hopeful wannabe actresses and actors ). I still want to be an actress but I'll be content just having a decent career playing minor roles but being fulfilled achieving a level of success AND (not only) being happy as Mrs Hofstadter."(incidentally that is how my wife and I live our lives - content with the jobs we have that could go further but happy being Mr and Mrs "Itwasdestined", while knowing for many of our friends and colleagues that is not enough.)

 

And remember I have repeatedly stated I hope Season 8 is about Penny continuing her attempt at an acting career, not just planning life as a wife. I really appreciate your insight into whether Penny is really committed to the acting - the lack of critiquing, researching, practising. Maybe Season 8 could get some funny plots out of Penny going to Comic Con (or other convention) panels and showing her responses to successful actors or Sheldon could take her to his best buddy James Earl Jones for advice ( instead of just Wheaton)!!

 

Forums (and reviews of any art form )  are full of interpretations of lines based on our personal viewpoints and life experiences and that's what we both have done. We've both shared a bit of our life experience that leads us to our interpretations of the proposal and I wholeheartedly agree that this show can present a negative message to women through Penny...but actual words should be quoted, not just paraphrased. 

Edited by Itwasdestined
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I thought it was a very good episode. Overall I thought the actual proposal was very typical Penny Leonard in nature.

 

I also wonder if the psychic's advice for Sheldon will perhaps instead work for Penny. Perhaps getting her relationship on a firmer footing will get her in a good frame of mind when real career opportunity knocks.

 

Perhaps just as Raj needs to stop thinking each person he dates is the woman for him Penny has to stop thinking each little part is going to be the one that catapults her career. To be successful A person has to enjoy the journey and not just crave the destination.

 

The fat jokes have gone on too much.

Agree with this viewpoint. Before Apeist, Penny saw each role she gained as the start of stardom. Before the commercial, she was giving up and heading back to Nebraska but went straight into the view of this ad is the start of great things. Her talk to Leonard after the NCIS cut was laced with the unfounded notion of her being famous and winning awards. I'd like to see her enjoying acting like we did with the Streetcar tag scene, the excitement she showed about her audition when she nailed forced crying (despite that ultimately being another knock back), even the dedication to acting her best in this episode when she wanted to redo the cage scene. More of that instead of the sad sack responses to failed auditions. Maybe some scenes where we see her doing her acting classes and auditions and of course some success, maybe working with a group of would be actors just acting out plays for fun to improve their craft.

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