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[Spoilers]Leonard And Penny Season 8 Thread

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I keep thinking this whole kissing thing was left open for a reason. It feels a lot like the Penny/Raj "did they or didn't they" for the writers to take the summer to get the fans reaction. It was never mentioned WHO initiated the kissing. Just that they kissed and "there was kissing."

I feel like if the reaction from fans is "mostly bad" we'll find out that the girl kissed him. But if it's "not too bad" he kissed her.

There's still way too many questions that haven't been answered. Who started it? How long did it last? Closed mouth or open w/ tongue? Were they alone or in a room with a ton of people?

Does anyone else feel that way?

I'm still upset about the whole thing and most of those questions will probably be swept under the carpet. I definitely want to know how long it lasted and who started it, was there any flirting prior to the kiss, was it just a one time only because he mentioned lots of kissing. So many questions and not enough answers.

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Edited by Tonstar17
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I do. People on here remember what happened in the season 7 opener and saw a picture of what may have happened. I can tell your a Shamy by you closed mouth or open w/tongue comment.LOL

Actually, I consider myself both a Shamy and a Lenny but yes, I admit, I ship Shamy the most (and have shipped Lenny the longest...lol).

But as for the "closed or open w/ tongue" thing has nothing to do with who I ship. If the kiss lasted 1-2 seconds before Leonard pushed her away, it's kinda hard to get tongue involved....not enough time to "get into it" if you know what I mean.

On the other hand, if it was longer than 2-3 seconds, then there was time.

I just know if I was in Penny's shoes, as a woman, I'd want to know all these little details to determine where his head was at in the moment, how long it would take me to forgive him, etc.

I'm still upset about the whole thing and most of those questions will probably be swept under the carpet. I definitely want to know how long it lasted and who started it, was there any flirting prior to the kiss, was it just a one time only because he mentioned lots of kissing. So many questions and not enough answers.

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Oh, man!! He said "lots of kissing"??? Not good!! I'd re-watch it to see but my kids playing the PS3 right now....lol.

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Actually, I consider myself both a Shamy and a Lenny but yes, I admit, I ship Shamy the most (and have shipped Lenny the longest...lol).

But as for the "closed or open w/ tongue" thing has nothing to do with who I ship. If the kiss lasted 1-2 seconds before Leonard pushed her away, it's kinda hard to get tongue involved....not enough time to "get into it" if you know what I mean.

On the other hand, if it was longer than 2-3 seconds, then there was time.

I just know if I was in Penny's shoes, as a woman, I'd want to know all these little details to determine where his head was at in the moment, how long it would take me to forgive him, etc.

Oh, man!! He said "lots of kissing"??? Not good!! I'd re-watch it to see but my kids playing the PS3 right now....lol.

Something along those lines but don't quote me on it. But the scene was horrible I felt so bad for penny she looked so devastated and in shock. Poor Penny.

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I keep thinking this whole kissing thing was left open for a reason. It feels a lot like the Penny/Raj "did they or didn't they" for the writers to take the summer to get the fans reaction. It was never mentioned WHO initiated the kissing. Just that they kissed and "there was kissing."

I feel like if the reaction from fans is "mostly bad" we'll find out that the girl kissed him. But if it's "not too bad" he kissed her.

There's still way too many questions that haven't been answered. Who started it? How long did it last? Closed mouth or open w/ tongue? Were they alone or in a room with a ton of people?

Does anyone else feel that way?

I don't think the style of the kissing is the problem and they could have been alone or in public. I don't think that matters. It was a major breach of trust. Penny had declared her position in THE 43 PECULIARITY. "You're the one that I'm with. You know I love you", was her unthinking response to Leonard's questioning of her fidelity. Now it turns out that Leonard didn't have the same unthinking response - but when his brain caught up with what was going on, he pulled the plug.

It doesn't surprise me that it could have happened, either. Every hero has an Achilles heel. Leonard is desperate for affection, most of the time. He was damaged by his mother. The thing is that he regretted what happened and confessed, and has thrown himself on Penny's mercy. How can he fix a mistake without acknowledging it. And he is giving Penny the opportunity to decide what to do. I think that's fair. She was the injured party- she gets to choose what happens next.

It's not enjoyable to know it happened, because it takes so much shine off Leonard's character, but it's very real. People screw up.

Edited by Nogravitasatall
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The lots of kissing was in reference to the others on the ship.

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The lots of kissing was in reference to the others on the ship.

I was thinking about the open or closed question. And I expect that if you're a grown person drunk and on a ship and kissing someone not your girlfriend and participating in the kiss, then you'll probably be unrestrained. Maybe that's just me. :(

It's such a smack in the face for Penny. So regrettable. And a nasty way to insert a stall in their trajectory. Mind you, it almost, but doesn't, mirror ROOMMATE. That episode opened up opportunity for hope. This one does the opposite. Crushing, really. No matter how I try to distinguish it.

Edit: Penny's style is to have unthinking visceral responses. Leonard is about the brain. He isn't so good when not thinking, apparently. If he was Penny's knight in shining armour he's more Lancelot than Galahad.

Edited by Nogravitasatall
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I feel sad for them both.  I think that Leonard experienced something on that boat that he hadn't in the past - he was kind of the life of the party.  With that ego boost and the alcohol, I suspect that when the girl started to kiss him, he did not immediately push her away.  And I don't see that being a problem really (getting caught in the moment and all that),  I do think he really did push her away because he thought it was wrong to do to Penny but he got foot in mouth disease when he was trying to explain to Penny that the girl was a smoker and all that.

 

I think, like many have said, there will be a time of reflection which might be the best thing for them.  Then they will air everything out and like Rick said a huge wedding for the 200th episode which would be appropriate.

 

(and for the Shamies a little Shamy sex in the limo on the ride home from the reception)...

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what if he had sex with her under the influence.....is that ok?? if so why....if not why......

 

Depends, was he blacked out drunk?  Of course it also depends on HOW MUCH inhibition he had that the alcohol hadn't impaired.  But if you add a roofie to the drink equation then I don't think anyone would be having this discussion.

 

The specific circumstances painted a picture where enough alcohol caused him to get caught up in the moment, BUT NOT to the point where he was unable to collect himself ENOUGH so that he could put a stop to it.  

 

Imagine if Leonard's reaction time while under the influence was similar to when Sheldon knocked on Wil's door drunk but couldn't remember how many times he knocked right away.

 

That's how I visualized Leonard in this situation only a notch or two below this.

 

At least that is MY TAKE ON IT.  Honestly I'm more upset with him just NOW telling this then it actually happening.  But I can at least rationalize why he didn't until now.

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Just thinking about it and Penny said that they were going into the marriage with "no regrets" prompting Leonard to come clean about the kissing.  I'm not trying to excuse his behavior but it is possible that in his mind he did not see it as cheating because the girl went after him, he didn't like it and he put a stop to it.  Just because he's a genius doesn't mean he's smart in everything....

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After viewing the finale a second time, I think I understand what the writers were trying to do with Leonard's "confession" during the drive to Las Vegas. The keys are in two places in the episode.

 

- Leonard agreed with Penny that they were in no hurry to get married. They could take 50 years for all he cared. He did seem to modify this by asking if they could set a date and agree on the frame work for a ceremony. That's all he wanted.

 

- As they were discussing their mental preparation for their marriage on the way to Vegas, he drops the bombshell about his being kissed by a woman two years ago and his stopping it. The key is what the writers give as Penny's response: Why would he bring up something so trivial, yet potentially explosive, at this moment? Is he purposely trying to sabotage the wedding?

 

I believe the answer is "Yes".

 

When you look back on the trail of evidence this season, the relationship balance of Leonard and Penny has changed drastically. Penny says as much herself when she gives back the money to Leonard for the car he brought her in season 7. She has stated that this makes Leonard more insecure now that he is no longer a key means for her subsistence.

 

During this season, Penny has:

 

- kept from Leonard that she hides her engagement ring when she goes on sales calls,

 

- made far more money than he and has investments that he does not know about.

 

- embarrassed Leonard on a podcast with Will Wheaton that she will guide her career changes even if Leonard wants input.

 

- goes to Sheldon for advise on going to an audition, while mocking Leonard's likely response.

 

I want to emphasized that at no time has Penny shown the slightest wavering in her love for Leonard. It's just that he is becoming more marginalized in her life. Penny has always had "control issues" in their relationship, as Leonard likes to say. She pretty much runs it since she knows that Leonard has her as the center of his life. As she said this season, "You being blindly infatuated with me was the rock we were building this relationship on".

 

This season is different from all the others for L/P. When Leonard first saw her in the pilot, she was this beautiful, 21 year old, who had been broken by a bad relationship and was trying to live by herself in the apartment next door. Within an hour of meeting her Leonard was in love, letting her take a bath in his apartment and going out on a dangerous quest to retrieve her TV set from her giant ex-boyfriend. That set the pattern for their relationship, Leonard was the one who did what was needed to keep her whole: feed her, tech support and free WiFi, pay for gas, or rent. He would get her out of an accidental marriage and pay for a car to pursue a career path he knew was folly. It was always the same; Penny messes up and Leonard fixes it.

 

Now Penny does not need Leonard to support her life anymore and I believe he finds that frighting. He IS sabotaging the elopement. I think he want the marriage to be when things are more in balance.

 

But before this season, Leonard was the one who put her on that pedestal and maintained it.

Edited by BangerMain
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This is a well-thought out, logical theory. Do you think Leonard sabotaged the elopement consciously or unconsciously? If you are right about the sabotage, might we take it a step further and wonder if he is also testing her love for him since he's feeling  insecure? Does he think that if she forgives his "indiscretion", (which maybe really was not something he wanted or initiated,)she truly loves him?

 

I don't know if the theory is correct or not, but it makes me feel a little less awful about the whole kettle of fish we were left to deal with.

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This is a well-thought out, logical theory. Do you think Leonard sabotaged the elopement consciously or unconsciously? If you are right about the sabotage, might we take it a step further and wonder if he is also testing her love for him since he's feeling  insecure? Does he think that if she forgives his "indiscretion", (which maybe really was not something he wanted or initiated,)she truly loves him?

 

I don't know if the theory is correct or not, but it makes me feel a little less awful about the whole kettle of fish we were left to deal with.

 

I believe Leonard's sabotage attempt was spur of the moment. This is not something that he thought out in advance. I'm thinking that Leonard may have been surprised that Penny said to keep going to Las Vegas. I'm also betting that they are in for some drama in the season opener. Penny will be more pissed at the sabotage attempt of the elopement then she will be of his being kissed two years ago by some girl he will never see again. This is long lasting not some kiss from the past.

 

The fact is Leonard had no problem not telling Penny that a woman he worked with, Alex, had asked him on a date AFTER she had met Penny. That was a far more dangerous incident than this non-issue on the boat. Leonard was going to see Alex every day, he has no contact with the "boat kisser".

 

This whole thing can allow them to delay the wedding to at least mid-season and hopefully not longer. If Leonard's "mental infidelity" is an attempt to delay things until he feels more secure at least he does not look like a complete idiot.

Edited by BangerMain
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Just thinking about it and Penny said that they were going into the marriage with "no regrets" prompting Leonard to come clean about the kissing.  I'm not trying to excuse his behavior but it is possible that in his mind he did not see it as cheating because the girl went after him, he didn't like it and he put a stop to it.  Just because he's a genius doesn't mean he's smart in everything....

I don't think he needs it excused, he did wrong and he knew it. I just keep harping on about the power of forgiveness.

After viewing the finale a second time, I think I understand what the writers were trying to do with Leonard's "confession" during the drive to Las Vegas. The keys are in two places in the episode.

 

- Leonard agreed with Penny that they were in no hurry to get married. They could take 50 years for all he cared. He did seem to modify this by asking if they could set a date and agree on the frame work for a ceremony. That's all he wanted.

 

- As they were discussing their mental preparation for their marriage on the way to Vegas, he drops the bombshell about his being kissed by a woman two years ago and his stopping it. The key is what the writers give as Penny's response: Why would he bring up something so trivial, yet potentially explosive, at this moment? Is he purposely trying to sabotage the wedding?

 

I believe the answer is "Yes".

 

When you look back on the trail of evidence this season, the relationship balance of Leonard and Penny has changed drastically. Penny says as much herself when she gives back the money to Leonard for the car he brought her in season 7. She has stated that this makes Leonard more insecure now that he is no longer a key means for her subsistence.

 

During this season, Penny has:

 

- kept from Leonard that she hides her engagement ring when she goes on sales calls,

 

- made far more money than he and has investments that he does not know about.

 

- embarrassed Leonard on a podcast with Will Wheaton that she will guide her career changes even if Leonard wants input.

 

- goes to Sheldon for advise on going to an audition, while mocking Leonard's likely response.

 

I want to emphasized that at no time has Penny shown the slightest wavering in her love for Leonard. It's just that he is becoming more marginalized in her life. Penny has always had "control issues" in their relationship, as Leonard likes to say. She pretty much runs it since she knows that Leonard has her as the center of his life. As she said this season, "You being blindly infatuated with me was the rock we were building this relationship on".

 

This season is different from all the others for L/P. When Leonard first saw her in the pilot, she was this beautiful, 21 year old, who had been broken by a bad relationship and was trying to live by herself in the apartment next door. Within an hour of meeting her Leonard was in love, letting her take a bath in his apartment and going out on a dangerous quest to retrieve her TV set from her giant ex-boyfriend. That set the pattern for their relationship, Leonard was the one who did what was needed to keep her whole: feed her, tech support and free WiFi, pay for gas, or rent. He would get her out of an accidental marriage and pay for a car to pursue a career path he knew was folly. It was always the same; Penny messes up and Leonard fixes it.

 

Now Penny does not need Leonard to support her life anymore and I believe he finds that frighting. He IS sabotaging the elopement. I think he want the marriage to be when things are more in balance.

 

But before this season, Leonard was the one who put her on that pedestal and maintained it.

Nice thinking. I just surmised stupidity. :)

I made the same points in the discussion thread. Compare the level of genuine engagement between the two and it's obvious that while Penny loves him, she was not fully engaged with them being a unit.. Her head was not in that game. Weigh things up contemporaneously. Over time Leonard has taken care of Penny and Penny has accepted that (remember the box of treasures). Leonard did a lot of the heavy lifting to maintain their collective material contentment. Penny couldn't contribute in that dimension, so that was probably fair. This year Penny has been all about discovering her new enabled adult self, likely after having hit the magic +70k zone in income (Google "Gravity Payments and Dan Price for the news on that) where she can think about other things than basic needs. And she got self-involved and was enjoying being a grown up. Got herself a "guy", liked being exceptional at her new role, took charge of her own career, and felt good about herself. But she left Leonard on the outside, out of her equations.

I don't know if Leonard was frightened. But he was definitely saying "what about me?". Self destructive perhaps but all about pulling her focus back to him. I could see him not accepting this new status quo, where as you say, Penny was living her own life, with him on the margin. Not a good way to go forward. So he dropped a small hand grenade.

And TPTB say they don't have a plan.

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I'm writing what I think without reading all the comments. I do feel bad for Penny from how the scene felt, and as other posters had mentioned Johnny and Kaley killed it. They were both soooo good. I hate that the writers left it so open ended. I also want to know about the exact details of the kiss. Where they with all the rest of the people or where they alone in a room? Was there intent on Leonard's part, or did it just happen, and he put and end to it as soon as he realized what was going on? Did the girl initiate the kiss or did he? While I was the first one to defend Leonard, from how the taping report sounded, having seen the scene myself it doesn't look good for him, meaning that he does indeed look guilty. I hope they address this in S9's opener , and that Leonard says something to the effect of Penny you do understand that she initiated the kiss and I ended it as soon as it happened, right? You do understand that I never meant for this to happen , and that it just did, right? I hope I see something like that, and that Leonard becomes what he was on season 5 or 6 which she called take charge Leonard, and that S8 is just a bad memory for all us Lennys, and that they can write the like they did on S8-22 (the graduation one). One can dream, right?

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We'll have to wait for season 9, but it might be the kiss really doesn't matter to Penny. It might be that waiting two years to tell her about it is the problem.

 

I know I've been blindsided kissed at New Years Eve, and Christmas parties, but always let my significant other know what happened right away.

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We'll have to wait for season 9, but it might be the kiss really doesn't matter to Penny. It might be that waiting two years to tell her about it is the problem.

 

I know I've been blindsided kissed at New Years Eve, and Christmas parties, but always let my significant other know what happened right away.

 

Yeah, I'm torn as to where they will go next season, whether they'll get married in the premiere. I know many disagree, but I think they actually, as these season finales are more often to surprise people. I thought for sure Sheldon and Amy would be on the verge of a break-up after his antics last season, and that didn't happen. I thought the trip to the North Sea would create more longterm storylines. So while they're trying to do the will they/won't they routine with the wedding, I'm not sure they'd introduce the storyline if they didn't take the plunge. It seems there will be enough drama with some of the other couples. 

 

I could be way off. 

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Personally I'll be disappointed if they do get married in Vegas. I was really hoping for a wedding with all the gang and an appearance from Wyatt and his wife.

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Why I don't want Lenny to get married in Vegas? Listen what Penny says about Vegas weddings.

 

Edited by RudyG
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Why I don't want Lenny to get married in Vegas? Listen what Penny says about Vegas weddings.

 

I actually know two couples who got married in Vegas and are still together. One go to my church, the other only had about $1500-$2000 to spend at that time and decided to buy plane tickets, some nice attire, and a hotel instead rather than try to make a wedding happen on such a small budget. Not something I'd want, just saying that not all couples live up to that stereotype. I for one would rather see something intimate with them than see Sheldon steal the spotlight by being annoying. 

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Sheldon's going to be annoying no matter how they get married

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I actually know two couples who got married in Vegas and are still together. One go to my church, the other only had about $1500-$2000 to spend at that time and decided to buy plane tickets, some nice attire, and a hotel instead rather than try to make a wedding happen on such a small budget. Not something I'd want, just saying that not all couples live up to that stereotype. I for one would rather see something intimate with them than see Sheldon steal the spotlight by being annoying. 

I just don't want to be cheated out of Lenny being all dressed up, and seeing the wedding party. I'd like to see Wyatt, and Penny's mother, Penny's brother and sister, and some of Leonard's family. Maybe even find out what Penny's last name is.

 

I also think that Lenny's wedding will be the trigger for Shamy to do something big like coitus or a proposal. 

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Why I don't want Lenny to get married in Vegas? Listen what Penny says about Vegas weddings.

 

 

Nothing wrong with a Vegas wedding. My wife and I were originally going to get married there, just a small ceremony with a few friends and family, but we couldn't make the logistics work (particularly with my brother, who wouldn't have had the funds to do it) so we had it at home instead ("at home" meaning at a place near where we live, not at our house). We even looked at a nice place called Chapel of the Flowers, which was very classy and tasteful, as are many of the chapels at the hotel/casinos on the Strip. We definitely wouldn't have gotten married at the Six Elvises No Waiting Drive-Through Quickie Chapel. :biggrin:

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I actually know two couples who got married in Vegas and are still together. One go to my church, the other only had about $1500-$2000 to spend at that time and decided to buy plane tickets, some nice attire, and a hotel instead rather than try to make a wedding happen on such a small budget. Not something I'd want, just saying that not all couples live up to that stereotype. I for one would rather see something intimate with them than see Sheldon steal the spotlight by being annoying.

Sheldon's going to be annoying no matter how they get married

Penny's already been married there. I have no problem with an intimate wedding though Sheldon as mentioned would be annoying. it seems to me Lenny being the main couple for so long should have at least the whole gang there. they certainly IMO should have something bigger than what Howdette had. but the way things have been lately they will probably get married at a gas station and Sheldon will be doing the ceremony in Klingon.
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I'm wondering whether Penny's 'fake' wedding to Zack will come up and she'll have a change of heart about getting married in Vegas to Leonard.

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I'm wondering whether Penny's 'fake' wedding to Zack will come up and she'll have a change of heart about getting married in Vegas to Leonard.

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Nah, I'm thinking that they'll get there, be on the verge of going through with it, realize that they were merely swept up in the moment and that eloping would be unfair to their friends and family, and back out at the last minute and decide on a more traditional wedding. All of this happening off-screen between seasons, of course...

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