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bigbangsheldon

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As much as Sheldon's behaviour needs changing, his friends also needs to stop enabling his behaviour. Like giving him space to work out problems on his own, stop trying to target his counter points, and create an environment for Sheldon that lets him grow in his own time. But Penny has been saying this as early as S2, she even said "You have got to stop letting Sheldon walk all over you, or he well just think he can get away with it". I also don't think Sheldon abandoned Amy, but running away from all the changes that were happening in his life, and had to leave to keep his relationship with Amy intact. But we can go back and fourth with this, point is Sheldon choose too flee, no one forced him too.

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Since Penny was the one who told Leonard to let him go, could her aloof look at the end, while Leonard is thrashed with a pillow, be because she knows that she is the one Amy should be hitting. She is the one that didn't stop him and she is the one who didn't talk to Amy before she made her decision.

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For those who have been on this forum a long time, I'm wondering what the reaction was to the way Penny ran away from Leonard at the bowling alley in Season 3, especially from Lenny shippers. For me there are parallels between that event and this one, Obviously this is made worse by being a cliffhanger causing all the fans emotionally involved to fret about it over a hiatus. But Leonard never really got closure on that event and while they reconciled as friends by the end of the next episode, he never really got an explanation for why it happened, even to this day. 

 

Now I agree with phanta that Sheldon's leaving was more to do about the stress of the changes caused by the engagement and work and not a breakdown in the relationship but for those who are concentrating on the Shamy relationship being the main issue to mend, just wondering if the Lennys were just as stressed out 4 years ago and whether Season 8 Shamy will follow the Season 4-6 Lenny path.

 

There are only three posters who were members during the bowling alley, who have posted in the last six months.  So I'm not sure we can get a good handle on it with that few (not to mention I don't think any of those are Lennys).  I can tell you I was unhappy.  But I didn't blame Penny or Leonard entirely.  Wil played with her mind, leading to her being convinced that she might hurt Leonard even worse, if she stayed with him.   You can see and hear how upset Penny was, not to mention she told him she was sorry and that it wasn't fair to Leonard.  Could she have been a bit more circumspect, maybe wait until they got home?  Sure, but she was upset and was just trying to escape from a bad situation, much, as you mentioned, like Sheldon.  

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However Leonard and penny have cell phones and brains in their heads. Unless they really believe the world revolves solely around the occupants of 4A and 4B, anyone with any sense would have given Amy a quick text on the way home from the train station.

 

Even if they thought she already knew, they would have been pissed off at HER for not calling THEM.  It's not a huge crime, but no text indicates they don't think she's important at all. That sucks too. But they learned to think that way from Sheldon. It's still on him.

 

Leonard tried to talk him out of it. I blame Leonard less.

That wouldn't have made a difference. And who's to say they didn't? We don't know when and how she found out that Sheldon left. At some point someone told her, and I'm thinking it wasn't Sheldon.

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There are only three posters who were members during the bowling alley, who have posted in the last six months.  So I'm not sure we can get a good handle on it with that few (not to mention I don't think any of those are Lennys).  I can tell you I was unhappy.  But I didn't blame Penny or Leonard entirely.  Wil played with her mind, leading to her being convinced that she might hurt Leonard even worse, if she stayed with him.   You can see and hear how upset Penny was, not to mention she told him she was sorry and that it wasn't fair to Leonard.  Could she have been a bit more circumspect, maybe wait until they got home?  Sure, but she was upset and was just trying to escape from a bad situation, much, as you mentioned, like Sheldon.  

 

It is also important to note when you look at that scene she is the only women in the scene. This was before Amy and Bernadette, so apart from anything Penny was really isolated in that scene. And yes of course people forget Will monopolized Penny into thinking she was going to hurt Leonard in the long run, with some fake story about his own experience. I wonder considering Penny worked with Will on Serial Apist this year, has she ever found out that Will sabotaged her relationship with Leonard. I know Penny got a lot of flack for that scene, but I did feel sorry for her she was clearly really upset, and clearly had a lot of growing up to do so did Leonard, but of course based on Penny's track record she does do public scenes a lot, a part form anything I thought Kaley really acted that scene out really well, maybe part of it was did her and Johnny just break up in real life, I know that Johnny is a method actor not sure about Kaley.

Edited by 3ku11

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There are only three posters who were members during the bowling alley, who have posted in the last six months.  So I'm not sure we can get a good handle on it with that few (not to mention I don't think any of those are Lennys).  I can tell you I was unhappy.  But I didn't blame Penny or Leonard entirely.  Wil played with her mind, leading to her being convinced that she might hurt Leonard even worse, if she stayed with him.   You can see and hear how upset Penny was, not to mention she told him she was sorry and that it wasn't fair to Leonard.  Could she have been a bit more circumspect, maybe wait until they got home?  Sure, but she was upset and was just trying to escape from a bad situation, much, as you mentioned, like Sheldon.  

Thanks Tensor. Suppose 4 years ago is a long time for forum frequenting!. Before I came to this forum I used to read the SnowFlake Snugglers on Fan Forum and went back to that time period. Those shippers seemed to manage to stay relatively calm during that period. I think they were so in love with the couple they knew they would return to each other eventually. Seems to be a lot more angst about the Shamy situation (which again I agree with phantagrae's assessment that it is not really a big relationship problem compared to his other issues).

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a part form anything I thought Kaley really acted that scene out really well, maybe part of it did her Johnny just break up in real life, I know that Johnny is a method actor not sure about Kaley.

 

That episode was taped in March 2010, about four to five  months after they broke up.  The timing depends on how you take Kaley's comment that they broke up just before the Holidays in 2009.   Now, was just before the holidays before Thanksgiving or before Christmas?  Either way, they had not just broken up.  

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Thanks Tensor. Suppose 4 years ago is a long time for forum frequenting!. Before I came to this forum I used to read the SnowFlake Snugglers on Fan Forum and went back to that time period. Those shippers seemed to manage to stay relatively calm during that period. I think they were so in love with the couple they knew they would return to each other eventually. Seems to be a lot more angst about the Shamy situation (which again I agree with phantagrae's assessment that it is not really a big relationship problem compared to his other issues).

 

Yeah I have only been on this forum since August of last year, was not here in 2009. I don't know didn't bother me when they broke up, guess I kinda figured in the back of my mind oh they well work it out and they did lol. Their does seem to be a lot of angst with The Shamy, but I think it is just a balance thing.

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Thanks Tensor. Suppose 4 years ago is a long time for forum frequenting!. Before I came to this forum I used to read the SnowFlake Snugglers on Fan Forum and went back to that time period. Those shippers seemed to manage to stay relatively calm during that period. I think they were so in love with the couple they knew they would return to each other eventually. Seems to be a lot more angst about the Shamy situation (which again I agree with phantagrae's assessment that it is not really a big relationship problem compared to his other issues).

 

I always liked Roxanne's comment at the start of that taping report.  Bill Prady had made a comment, in the press, about how there was going to be a long road for Penny and Leonard.  Roxanne said something about that episode being a heavy L/P episode, and not in a good way.  Her next comment was "That long road we heard about, it starts here."  I always thought back to that statement as they took all those small steps in seasons four, five, and six.  

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That episode was taped in March 2010, about four to five  months after they broke up.  The timing depends on how you take Kaley's comment that they broke up just before the Holidays in 2009.   Now, was just before the holidays before Thanksgiving or before Christmas?  Either way, they had not just broken up.  

 

Okay thanks Tensor I just knew they dated from 2008-2009 didn't really know nor should I the timeframe of it, four-five months is still pretty fresh well it be for me if I dated Kaley anyway haha, anyway I was just making the point some actors draw on real life experience but moving on.

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I enjoy Phanta's analysis but I get saddened that the guy is so subject to his intrinsic nature that he has no choice in what he does. That's tough for a comedy. If he can't help making these decisions, and we can't blame the various gods for his mis-fortune, then why is he a figure of fun? It comes down to him being different. So we are laughing at him for being different?

Edited by Nogravitasatall

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I enjoy Phanta's analysis but I get saddened that the guy is so subject to his intrinsic nature that he has no choice in what he does. That's tough for a comedy. If he can't help making these decisions, and we can't blame the various gods for his mis-fortune, then why is he a figure of fun? It comes down to him being different. So we are laughing at him for being different?

I suppose that is one of the great quandaries about the success of Big Bang that some critics highlight. Are we laughing with or at Sheldon and his 'different' friends? TPTB always deny Sheldon has any diagnosed disorder and the old "I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested" has been trotted out many times to deflect that perception. Sheldon is definitely different and there are several members here, including myself, who often compare  his 'quirks' to people we have lived with/worked with/taught in our lives who have been diagnosed. 

 

Its a fine line in comedy sometimes to deal with the laugh with/laugh at conundrum. It's the same with race based comedy as well. The Aussie comedian Steady Eddy based his early act on the fact he had cerebral palsy but other comedians weren't going to make fun of disabilities. Australia's Wogs out of Work was OK because it was the 'wogs'( an old racist term in Oz for those unfamiliar) making the jokes about themselves. 

I suppose having Sheldon make the decision himself and recognise the need to go and reflect by himself at least shows he CAN work on the change he finds too difficult to handle and softens the idea that the doctors his mom sent him to missed something. 

 

I think the writers of BBT do a good job with the balance by the way. I think we laugh more at the effect his behaviour has on the others in the show more than laugh at his behaviour itself. It will be interesting to see how they make his struggle with the change in Season 8 funny.

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Although people see it as making excuses for Sheldon and his excesses, the truth about him as a character is that his mind works in a very peculiar and extreme way.  You can call it his pathology or his particular psychology or whatever, but the truth is that he is indeed hampered by his need to control his environment and that making drastic changes is much more difficult for him than for anyone else.

So, if that's the case--and most importantly, if that's the person that Amy is in love with--then certain allowances have to be made in order to KEEP HIM from "flaking out", as you put it.

So what might seem ridiculous for anyone else, is, in fact, the process that Sheldon has to go through.

We've seen him:

  • struggle to adapt to living with another human being--he's difficult to live with because of his need to control his environment, and only Leonard has been understandable and adaptable and patient enough to deal with it
  • struggle to adapt to expanding his life to include new friends--and Leonard was an important factor in that process, bring Howard, Raj, and even Penny into Sheldon's life early on
  • struggle to understand what it means to be a boyfriend

And now we're seeing him struggle through the process of too many things changing all around him at once.  If it takes him time and the forging of schedules and contracts and other routines and parameters to adapt to any change, then having so many things swirling around him at once is, as he said, overwhelming.

 

While they haven't labeled Sheldon as being "on the spectrum", we all know that his character exhibits similar behaviors.  So, if he really did have Aspergers or another high-functioning form of autism, for instance, would it be surprising that such changes would crash like a beleagured computer?

So, even without a "diagnosis", we know that he has a peculiar mental development that both enables him to be a genius and hampers his ability to deal with some aspects of everyday life, most especially change.

 

Leonard recognized this when he first began the discussion with Sheldon about the possible changes to the living arrangements.  He said, "I know it's scary for you" or something along those lines.  He knew that the changes he was bring up were going to be hard for Sheldon to deal with.  What he didn't count on, perhaps, was how much the potential changes would combine with the already troublesome weight of his career choices (possibly even having to leave the university if they wouldn't let him change his field, and so forth), and then the suggestion of further change coming from Amy, and finally, the upheaval of his favorite refuge of escape being gone (and possibly not coming back.)

 

So, Sheldon isn't just running off in a temper tantrum, selfishly abandoning Amy to go play on the train.  He is handling the overwhelming situation the only way he can--he has to calm his mind so he can think.  If he is used to using thinking as his way of dealing with things, rather than, perhaps, simply relying on feelings, and then if his abilty to think clearly is hampered by the stress of drastic changes happening or threatening to happen in pretty much every aspect of his life, then the only way he can think is to get away from the stress and clear his head.

 

He didn't run off right after talking to her--he went to the comic book store.  When he left Amy, he wasn't headed for the train station.  If the comic book store had been intact, he might have just used an evening of reading comics to calm himself so that he could return home and further contemplate his situation.  But the burned out store was the last straw and THAT'S what made him flee.

He had no acceptable refuge.

 

I think that the very fact that he felt beleaguered on every side may have been what led him to simply go without attempting to tell anyone.  If they were all adding to his burden--L/P by wanting to move or wanting him to move, Amy by wanting to move in with him (another change), the university by not letting him make the one change he wanted to make, and then Stuart by being sarcastic and unsympathetic--then I can understand him not wanting to talk to anyone, or maybe not being able to talk to anyone.

 

 

I ship you for this.   :wub:

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I suppose that is one of the great quandaries about the success of Big Bang that some critics highlight. Are we laughing with or at Sheldon and his 'different' friends? TPTB always deny Sheldon has any diagnosed disorder and the old "I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested" has been trotted out many times to deflect that perception. Sheldon is definitely different and there are several members here, including myself, who often compare his 'quirks' to people we have lived with/worked with/taught in our lives who have been diagnosed.

Its a fine line in comedy sometimes to deal with the laugh with/laugh at conundrum. It's the same with race based comedy as well. The Aussie comedian Steady Eddy based his early act on the fact he had cerebral palsy but other comedians weren't going to make fun of disabilities. Australia's Wogs out of Work was OK because it was the 'wogs'( an old racist term in Oz for those unfamiliar) making the jokes about themselves.

I suppose having Sheldon make the decision himself and recognise the need to go and reflect by himself at least shows he CAN work on the change he finds too difficult to handle and softens the idea that the doctors his mom sent him to missed something.

I think the writers of BBT do a good job with the balance by the way. I think we laugh more at the effect his behaviour has on the others in the show more than laugh at his behaviour itself. It will be interesting to see how they make his struggle with the change in Season 8 funny.

So, Sheldon isn't self-identified as a member of a different set and isn't externally identified, either? It's all his choice and he is culpable? Or, this is a really twisted "Hallmark" show?

Back to Sheldon being Sheldon and something of a bad boy anti-hero. Hmmm.

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So, Sheldon isn't self-identified as a member of a different set and isn't externally identified, either? It's all his choice and he is culpable? Or, this is a really twisted "Hallmark" show?

Back to Sheldon being Sheldon and something of a bad boy anti-hero. Hmmm.

I hope I haven't just described a "Hallmark" show!

 

So do you see him as a bad boy anti-hero, nograv? My "Sheldon part" isn't quite reading your "Hmmm."

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I think that it's not that Sheldon can't adapt to change, because he clearly has made adaptations.  It's that it's very difficult for him and it takes him a while to process and deal with it.

When he moved to California, it took his mother making up something about haircut records and telling him that his barber knew how he liked his hair.  And once he started going there, he didn't want that to change--so when this one particular barber isn't available, Sheldon can't just switch to any other guy.

 

He creates rules and charts and contracts to help him cope with things, including changes.  When he had to get a new roommate, he insisted that Leonard fall within certain acceptable parameters and sign a deeply involved contract in order to be able to deal with it.  When his inner caveman pushed his conscious mind to claim Amy as his girlfriend, he could only make that change by insisting that nothing would change except how they referred to her.  And he had to come up with a contract.

 

In this case, it could very well be that he comes back with a plan to be able to adapt to the upcoming changes, whether that means some kind of process to try to have Leonard move out little by little--like spending one night a week at Penny's for a while, then two nights, then three, etc..  Now, of course, that doesn't mean that Leonard would agree to such a silly thing, but it could be that that's how Sheldon might be able to prepare himself for the change.

 

I think that Sheldon is adaptable, but generally on a fairly glacial pace or under his own terms, or both.

He has changed greatly since he's known Amy--and even having a girlfriend would have been unthinkable for early Sheldon.  And even though he began communicating daily with Amy from, apparently, the moment he met her, he didn't eagerly seek out the bf/gf relationship.  He backed into it in spite of himself and still moves forward with his foot on the brake.

But he is moving forward.

 

The problem in this instance is that he wasn't dealing with just one change, being allowed to think his way through that change, but instead was having impending or suggested changes thrown at him from every direction, with no refuge.

 

For any person, issues at work, in personal relationships, or moving from one's home are individually very stressful. To have all three hit at one time would be difficult for any person--imagine getting laid off, having marital or family problems (problems with kids, etc.), while you're in the middle of moving to another city.  Anyone could have a breakdown.

 

Sheldon can make adaptations, it's just hard for him.  And, again, if he needs to think, it's probably easier for him to do it when he doesn't have to deal with being in the middle of it.

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I think that it's not that Sheldon can't adapt to change, because he clearly has made adaptations.  It's that it's very difficult for him and it takes him a while to process and deal with it.

When he moved to California, it took his mother making up something about haircut records and telling him that his barber knew how he liked his hair.  And once he started going there, he didn't want that to change--so when this one particular barber isn't available, Sheldon can't just switch to any other guy.

 

He creates rules and charts and contracts to help him cope with things, including changes.  When he had to get a new roommate, he insisted that Leonard fall within certain acceptable parameters and sign a deeply involved contract in order to be able to deal with it.  When his inner caveman pushed his conscious mind to claim Amy as his girlfriend, he could only make that change by insisting that nothing would change except how they referred to her.  And he had to come up with a contract.

 

In this case, it could very well be that he comes back with a plan to be able to adapt to the upcoming changes, whether that means some kind of process to try to have Leonard move out little by little--like spending one night a week at Penny's for a while, then two nights, then three, etc..  Now, of course, that doesn't mean that Leonard would agree to such a silly thing, but it could be that that's how Sheldon might be able to prepare himself for the change.

 

I think that Sheldon is adaptable, but generally on a fairly glacial pace or under his own terms, or both.

He has changed greatly since he's known Amy--and even having a girlfriend would have been unthinkable for early Sheldon.  And even though he began communicating daily with Amy from, apparently, the moment he met her, he didn't eagerly seek out the bf/gf relationship.  He backed into it in spite of himself and still moves forward with his foot on the brake.

But he is moving forward.

 

The problem in this instance is that he wasn't dealing with just one change, being allowed to think his way through that change, but instead was having impending or suggested changes thrown at him from every direction, with no refuge.

 

For any person, issues at work, in personal relationships, or moving from one's home are individually very stressful. To have all three hit at one time would be difficult for any person--imagine getting laid off, having marital or family problems (problems with kids, etc.), while you're in the middle of moving to another city.  Anyone could have a breakdown.

 

Sheldon can make adaptations, it's just hard for him.  And, again, if he needs to think, it's probably easier for him to do it when he doesn't have to deal with being in the middle of it.

Another great description of Sheldon's persona, phantagrae, based on actual events in the show.

on the Leonard moving out thing, though, I would think it would be more about the day time absences rather than nights away. Would have thought Leonard has spent many nights at Penny's already for "conjugal visits" and crunchy/chewy spaghetti dinners. He's more likely to need adapting to missing Leonard's presence and usefulness to him in the day time/early evenings/weekends.  

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Well, if Sheldon remains at CalTech (which of course he will do), then Sheldon will still see him every day at work.  And undoubtedly, the gang would still hang out on the weekends, going to the movies, etc., and eat dinner at 4A on some evenings.  And if Leonard is just across the hall, it's not as if he's not nearby.

I think it would be more about the symbolic movement--Leonard moving his stuff out, being out of the apartment more and more.

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I hope I haven't just described a "Hallmark" show!

So do you see him as a bad boy anti-hero, nograv? My "Sheldon part" isn't quite reading your "Hmmm."

I keep wanting to work out why he is worthy. Better in a character or debate thread. Maybe in S8 we will see that worked out. Or we get a real antagonist like Kripke back. All subjective I guess and correlated to preference.

(edit: i suspect prettiness helps)

Edited by Nogravitasatall

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I keep wanting to work out why he is worthy. Better in a character or debate thread. Maybe in S8 we will see that worked out. Or we get a real antagonist like Kripke back. All subjective I guess and correlated to preference.

 

If so does that make Sheldon the Protagonist? Yeah not sure re Sheldon he is clearly the anti hero of the show, maybe the protagonist. I guess many times the best characters are the worst people on the planet, not that Sheldon is evil, but he does have that form and slight evil glee fullness about him. I mean he is constantly hurting the people he loves, and we just accept it gleefully, because he does not understand. He's an innocent, Obviousley a lot of people even Jim Parsons has speculated Sheldon may have Asperger's Syndrome, he coulden't show more facets of it. I think because the show has used lines like "I am not crazy my mother had me tested", or my Mother got me diagnosed, it gives them the freedom to poke fun without insulting anyone. I guess you could say Sheldon is a modern day Vulcan, you could even say he is quite similar to Robin Williams character in Mork and Mindy lol, he has trouble with emotions, an inability to read other people's emotion, often robotic. I think when the show throws Sheldon a breath form of humanity, they don't overdo it, they put him the caregiver role, but maybe as someone said on this occasion was too much too soon.

Edited by 3ku11

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I keep wanting to work out why he is worthy. Better in a character or debate thread. Maybe in S8 we will see that worked out. Or we get a real antagonist like Kripke back. All subjective I guess and correlated to preference.

(edit: i suspect prettiness helps)

Agree on the thread statement. But then every season 8 thread has turned into a debate about characters' history since the season hasn't started yet. Tensor would need a week to move them all over to the character threads!

Edited by Itwasdestined

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I really don't buy into the idea that Sheldon is an anti-hero. The hole gang just represent extreme examples of us all.

 

  • What guy has not had trouble talking to women now or then?
  • What person has not had some insecurities or felt unloved by someone in there own family?
  • What person has not felt unease about some change thrust on them or felt they could not quite grasp the behaviour of some friends.

 

Sheldon is just an extreme example of some characteristics we share some of the time. The others are less extreme for the most part.

 

I think TBBT captures some nearly universal personal weaknesses and it is good we can laugh at these. It is this under the surface universality that makes the bbt popular. Season 8 should be great if they can keep tapping into that.

Edited by djsurrey

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I'm sorry some of the Shamy fans are so upset about the finale.  However, remember the entire premise of the relationship is that they are unlike other couples.  While most of us would be devastated if our significant others took off like that, we can't assume it's the same for them.

 

Anyway, the way Sheldon kept looking for a sanctuary in the finale makes me think he might eventually end up at his ultimate sanctuary:  Meemaw's house.

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I really don't buy into the idea that Sheldon is an anti-hero. The hole gang just represent extreme examples of us all.

 

  • What guy has not had trouble talking to women now or then?
  • What person has not had some insecurities or felt unloved by someone in there own family?
  • What person has not felt unease about some change thrust on them or felt they could not quite grasp the behaviour of some friends.

 

Sheldon is just an extreme example of some characteristics we share some of the time. The others are less extreme for the most part.

 

I think TBBT captures some nearly universal personal weaknesses and it is good we can laugh at these. It is this under the surface universality that makes the bbt popular. Season 8 should be great if they can keep tapping into that.

 

Very much agree.  I would also go further and say that TBBT is serious about sending the message that we aren't defined by our weaknesses; that strength of "character" is to be found at a deeper level than personality, social grace, physical stature and appearance.

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