S8 Discussion Thread

[tallin]

Somebody make some popcorn gifs!! I don't know how to! [emoji12]

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Here you go 

[Tonstar17]

I don't "think" that I ship Lenny, I know that I ship it too, and only because I don't agree with your arguments doesn't mean that I don't ship them nor that I think that all Lenny shippers are wrong.

If you go over my author page on fanfiction.net, you will see that I write both Lenny and Shamy. There are both Lenny and Shamy stories on my favorite list. Actually, only one fanfiction that I wrote so far is pure Shamy. My only ongoing story in this fandom so far is both Shamy and Lenny fic. All other stories are about guys's and girls's friendships and non-canon pairings (such as Stuart/Lucy).

As far as I remember, the only thing that I didn't agree with regarding Lenny relationship is complaining about Sheldon "interrupting" Lenny scenes. The fact that the argument dragged out for so long is another thing.

Most lenny shippers do not like the intrusions & if you can't see their beef, fine. Not bothered what you think.

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[denajeanx]

Leonard is not his family.

 

I'm pretty sure if you asked Sheldon, he would consider Leonard to be a brother to him. 

 

 

Um... yes. That's why I moved out and away. It's what many people do...

Sheldon is holding on a little bit too tightly. Across the hall is too far away. That's why its funny. But its not a normal behaviour.

 

Yeah, haven't lived with my family since I was 18, still doesn't change anything.

 

Never once did I say Sheldon holding on too tightly was normal. But, it doesn't mean Leonard is more important to him. We all know Sheldon is spectrum-y. Often times, people with similar traits as Sheldon have a person that they depend on because it makes them feel "safe". Leonard leaving would bring changes to Sheldon's daily life, whether he's moving across the hall or to another country. Changes in daily routine are a major issue for a person with Sheldon's mental qualities. Having observed people like this first-hand, that doesn't at all mean that this person is more important to them, but that they bring a sense of comfort (a false one, but in their minds that is a huge deal).

 

Eventually, when Leonard moves out Sheldon will realize that the world didn't crumble and his life is still the same with Leonard across the hall. There has to be a self-realization for Sheldon, otherwise he's never going to break out of his co-dependent behavior. 

 

I would pose the argument that Leonard is also, self-admittedly, co-dependent in terms of his relationship with Sheldon. He has said that he "needs" Sheldon. Does this mean that Sheldon is more important than Penny? Of course not. Because they are two different relationships.  

[rachelshamyfan]

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[Maddie]

So why the need for the Sheldon theatrics? BTW I believe Tonstar noticed you agreeing with what phanta said about the bashing.

You mean, why the need for Sheldon to be so upset and dramatic cuz Leonard is leaving? Because, number one, it's funny. And, IMO, it would be OOC for Sheldon to just shrug and be like "whatever, see ya." I mean, the Shelnard relationship has been another staple since the beginning like Lenny has. Of course they're gonna make a big deal out of them no longer living together. And of course Sheldon is gonna be heartbroken. And I think, when the time comes, Leonard will have trouble with it too. We already got a sense at the department store how much they care about each other, even if they do butt heads 99% of the time. But the time has come for each of them to move on and be with their respective women.

 

It's comparable to Friends when Rachel moved out. Monica was heartbroken to see her go, even if it meant Chandler was moving in. But in this situation, it hasn't yet been decided that Amy will move in like it was with Chandler and Monica.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Maddie

[Mislav]

Most lenny shippers do not like the intrusions & if you can't see their beef, fine. Not bothered what you think.

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So, what you are saying is, you can't be an actual fan of the ship if you are not bothered by the same thing that some of the shippers are bothered with? And when you have no arguments you simply say that you don't bother and ignore other person's arguments?

Or do you actually want to say that you can't be a Lenny shipper if you ship Shamy too or if you don't have problems with every single thing that Sheldon does that involves Leonard-Penny?

Edited December 10, 2014 by Mislav

[Chrismo]

I think that some Shamy fans were upset that L/P didn't call Amy when Sheldon left or that Penny kicked Amy out when she was interrupting their dinner, but that wasn't about Lenny bashing, IMO.  THey weren't saying that L/P didn't have a real relationship or trying to denigrate the couple.

That was a specific reaction to a specific scene, and, I'd like to point out, not one that was ship-wide.  I had no problem with either of those moments and I know there were others who were not bothered by them.

To me, both of those scenes made sense as they played out.

I think they were bashing Lenny not their relationship. But Lenny comments about Shamy aren't ship-wide either.

[Tonstar17]

So, what you are saying is, you can't be an actual fan of the ship if you are not bothered by the same thing that some of the shippers are bothered with? And when you have no arguments you simply say that you don't bother and ignore other person's arguments?

Or do you actually want to say that you can't be a Lenny shipper if you ship Shamy too or if you don't have problems with every single thing that Sheldon does that involves Leonard-Penny?

Nope. I am saying you have never picked on the shamy or called them out when they bash lenny. Look I don't care who you ship... I say it as I see it & if you don't like it then that's the way the cookie crumbles.

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[phantagrae]

I think they were bashing Lenny not their relationship. But Lenny comments about Shamy aren't ship-wide either.

 

I think they were complaining about their actions in that one moment, not their relationship as a whole.

[Nogravitasatall]

I'm pretty sure if you asked Sheldon, he would consider Leonard to be a brother to him. 

 

 

 

Yeah, haven't lived with my family since I was 18, still doesn't change anything.

 

Never once did I say Sheldon holding on too tightly was normal. But, it doesn't mean Leonard is more important to him. We all know Sheldon is spectrum-y. Often times, people with similar traits as Sheldon have a person that they depend on because it makes them feel "safe". Leonard leaving would bring changes to Sheldon's daily life, whether he's moving across the hall or to another country. Changes in daily routine are a major issue for a person with Sheldon's mental qualities. Having observed people like this first-hand, that doesn't at all mean that this person is more important to them, but that they bring a sense of comfort (a false one, but in their minds that is a huge deal).

 

Eventually, when Leonard moves out Sheldon will realize that the world didn't crumble and his life is still the same with Leonard across the hall. There has to be a self-realization for Sheldon, otherwise he's never going to break out of his co-dependent behavior. 

 

I would pose the argument that Leonard is also, self-admittedly, co-dependent in terms of his relationship with Sheldon. He has said that he "needs" Sheldon. Does this mean that Sheldon is more important than Penny? Of course not. Because they are two different relationships.

I think it's a comedy, so they do odd things that are funny but exaggerated. There is no explicit reason, other than Penny not wanting to have people suspect she pregnant, for Leonard and Penny not to bolt and set up house together. It beggars my mind that Leonard would cleave to Sheldon and not Penny. I understand he can be considerate of Sheldon but you can't have three in a marriage, as said by Princess Di. Its a conceit, that will potentially be more laboured as they all get older.

It's easier to suspend disbelief if you don't look to closely. Maybe Leonard just isn't the horny blighter he used to be, given the evident lack of him chasing Penny around the house. And that's why he stays put. Or maybe the mothy food had a long term effect. LOL.

[Kathy2611]

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Have some popcorn, Rachel. I'd pass it myself but I don't know how to do gifs.

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[denajeanx]

I think it's a comedy, so they do odd things that are funny but exaggerated. There is no explicit reason, other than Penny not wanting to have people suspect she pregnant, for Leonard and Penny not to bolt and set up house together. It beggars my mind that Leonard would cleave to Sheldon and not Penny. I understand he can be considerate of Sheldon but you can't have three in a marriage, as said by Princess Di. Its a conceit, that will potentially be more laboured as they all get older.

It's easier to suspend disbelief if you don't look to closely. Maybe Leonard just isn't the horny blighter he used to be, given the evident lack of him chasing Penny around the house. And that's why he stays put. Or maybe the mothy food had a long term effect. LOL.

 

Sure, now we shouldn't take it too seriously since I've turned it around on all of you. Leonard is willing to stay with Sheldon and cater to his needs, by the logic that was posed earlier, that makes Sheldon more important to him.

 

But, it's a comedy so we shouldn't harp too much on that.

[phantagrae]

I think it's a comedy, so they do odd things that are funny but exaggerated. There is no explicit reason, other than Penny not wanting to have people suspect she pregnant, for Leonard and Penny not to bolt and set up house together. It beggars my mind that Leonard would cleave to Sheldon and not Penny. I understand he can be considerate of Sheldon but you can't have three in a marriage, as said by Princess Di. Its a conceit, that will potentially be more laboured as they all get older.

It's easier to suspend disbelief if you don't look to closely. Maybe Leonard just isn't the horny blighter he used to be, given the evident lack of him chasing Penny around the house. And that's why he stays put. Or maybe the mothy food had a long term effect. LOL.

 

I think the primary reason is that the writers/producers don't want to lose the Sheldon/Leonard dynamic of 4A and the way the gang hangs out there.  By having this discussion, they can kind of postpone the actual moving out (as well as the reason Penny wants to wait on her wedding date.)

 

Look how long it took for Howard and Bernie to get married, from the time they got engaged to the time they got married.  It took a whole season and they aren't even one of the major couples.  In fact, I think that's why it didn't take longer.

It's barely been a dozen episodes since they got engaged and started talking about moving in together.  Since the show has much more at stake in changing up the living arrangements, because of how the gang gathers in 4A, they're always going to drag their feet about making such a big change.

 

Whether or not it happens at the end of this season or whatever, it's going to be a big deal, so they're going to keep either coming up with reasons why it won't happen or they're just going to keep it on the back burner as long as possible.

 

Getting frustrated over it doesn't change that aspect of how the story is being told.  And it doesn't change the fundamentals of how all of these characters relate to each other.

[Tensor]

 

 

I would pose the argument that Leonard is also, self-admittedly, co-dependent in terms of his relationship with Sheldon. He has said that he "needs" Sheldon. Does this mean that Sheldon is more important than Penny? Of course not. Because they are two different relationships.  

 

Do you really think that if Sheldon said it's either Penny or me, Leonard would stay with Sheldon?    They may be co-dependent, but Leonard has no problem moving in with Penny, whereas Sheldon can't let go to the point of not sleeping in his own room.  That seems to me to indicate that Penny is more important to Leonard than Sheldon is.   He may have a different kind of love for Sheldon, but Penny is more important to him.    If Sheldon has to leave his apartment, to sleep somewhere else, to be near Leonard, instead of having Amy with him, that indicates that Leonard is more important to him.  That is almost certainly changing, but at this point, it's how it is.  

[denajeanx]

Do you really think that if Sheldon said it's either Penny or me, Leonard would stay with Sheldon?    They may be co-dependent, but Leonard has no problem moving in with Penny, whereas Sheldon can't let go to the point of not sleeping in his own room.  That seems to me to indicate that Penny is more important to Leonard than Sheldon is.   He may have a different kind of love for Sheldon, but Penny is more important to him.    If Sheldon has to leave his apartment, to sleep somewhere else, to be near Leonard, instead of having Amy with him, that indicates that Leonard is more important to him.  That is almost certainly changing, but at this point, it's how it is.  

 

No one is making Leonard choose, as it should be. But, Leonard could easily say he doesn't want to live with Sheldon anymore and move in with Penny. He won't do that because he cares too much for Sheldon. Same logic that was used in saying Leonard is more important than Amy. 

 

As I said, no one is more important than any other because they are not comparable relationships. But, if you must think that to somehow make yourself feel better about Lenny... by all means. 

[Maddie]

Do you really think that if Sheldon said it's either Penny or me, Leonard would stay with Sheldon?    They may be co-dependent, but Leonard has no problem moving in with Penny, whereas Sheldon can't let go to the point of not sleeping in his own room.  That seems to me to indicate that Penny is more important to Leonard than Sheldon is.   He may have a different kind of love for Sheldon, but Penny is more important to him.    If Sheldon has to leave his apartment, to sleep somewhere else, to be near Leonard, instead of having Amy with him, that indicates that Leonard is more important to him.  That is almost certainly changing, but at this point, it's how it is.  

 

You're saying that if Sheldon weren't sleeping on Penny's couch, he'd be somewhere sleeping with Amy? Because that seems to be where the confusion lies. At what point was it ever stated that Shamy are at the point of spending nights together? Because I sure missed that.

 

I'm not understanding why this has become a Shamy issue at all. But I'll play along. The truth of the matter is that Shamy aren't at the point in their relationship where they spend nights together, so it's ridiculous to say that Sheldon is choosing to be near Leonard over sleeping with Amy. If Sheldon wasn't on the couch, he'd be in his apartment, in his bed. Alone. And Amy would be at her apartment, where she's always been. Alone. Sheldon is not choosing Leonard over Amy. Why is that so hard to understand?

Like I've said, ships seem to be knocked down to make people feel better about their own. This particular plot was about Shelnard and no one else. Progress was made in that Sheldon is taking the steps to someday being without Leonard. Tagscenes are almost always throw-away punchline jokes and nothing more. Just like others have mentioned with the joke about Penny's hair.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Maddie

[Tonstar17]

He could invite her round she could sleep on the couch. Do'h...

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[Tensor]

You're saying that if Sheldon weren't sleeping on Penny's couch, he'd be somewhere sleeping with Amy? Because that seems to be where the confusion lies.

Not at all.

 

At what point was it ever stated that Shamy are at the point of spending nights together? Because I sure missed that.

They've spent nights together, just not in the same bed.

 

I'm not understanding why this has become a Shamy issue at all. But I'll play along. The truth of the matter is that Shamy aren't at the point in their relationship where they spend nights together, so it's ridiculous to say that Sheldon is choosing to be near Leonard over sleeping with Amy.

But that is exactly what is happening. Did you read my last sentence?

 

If Sheldon wasn't on the couch, he'd be in his apartment, in his bed. Alone. And Amy would be at her apartment, where she's always been. Alone. Sheldon is not choosing Leonard over Amy. Why is that so hard to understand?

So your saying that Sheldon is not choosing to follow Leonard to Penny's apartment, and instead is choosing to go to Amy's and sleep on her couch?

[Nogravitasatall]

Sure, now we shouldn't take it too seriously since I've turned it around on all of you. Leonard is willing to stay with Sheldon and cater to his needs, by the logic that was posed earlier, that makes Sheldon more important to him.

 

But, it's a comedy so we shouldn't harp too much on that.

I'm not sure. Leonard has to persuade Penny let him in or to go with him, so it's not entirely his decision.. She has been independent since Kurt and is stubborn or else why did she say no all those times, in the face of a fairly rational choice of the devoted nice guy whose company she enjoys immensely (not that we see that much), with whom she has good sex and who has a steady job. So Leonard stays with Sheldon because it's the next best thing. And I do ponder why Leonard is so tolerant of Sheldon. Proton posed the question and Leonard couldn't answer it. Obviously he is fond of him. But the situation is two men across the hall from a woman. That' is not going to change too soon if at all, hence these odd contortions and lack of natural progression.

[Tensor]

But, if you must think that to somehow make yourself feel better about Lenny... by all means.

LOL, feel free to think that. I could just as easily say that you need to think that to make yourself feel better about Shamy. But we've communicated enough to know that is not the case. I'm a bit disappointed that you think I would need this to feel better about Lenny. I'm disappointed that Sheldon is inserted into many of Lenny's scenes. Most of my posts have to do with disagreeing with examples given to dispute that.

[Tonstar17]

Not at all.

They've spent nights together, just not in the same bed.

But that is exactly what is happening. Did you read my last sentence?

So your saying that Sheldon is not choosing to follow Leonard to Penny's apartment, and instead is choosing to go to Amy's and sleep on her couch?

Or even that. Amys couch. Oh, sorry my bad. That wouldn't be funny. no lenny for Sheldon to intrude on.

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[Maddie]

Not at all.

 

They've spent nights together, just not in the same bed.

 

But that is exactly what is happening. Did you read my last sentence?

 

So your saying that Sheldon is not choosing to follow Leonard to Penny's apartment, rather than choosing to go to Amy's and sleep on her couch?

 

They have spent a night or two together, I'll give you that. I can think of one, maybe two, instances. The first was when he slept on her couch because he was freaking out over his haircut. And the second was when they "spent the night spooning" because Amy was upset over not being invited dress shopping, but that's debatable whether he stayed the whole night. But these were two instances in four years, and they were extenuating circumstances, where they were both in distress. It is not the norm for them to spend nights with each other, no. It is my complete understanding that they spend every night alone in their own beds, and until the writers give me something that refutes that, that is what I believe. 

 

But like I've said repeatedly, this wasn't an episode about Shamy. Or Lenny. It was Shelnard. Sheldon is gonna hold onto Leonard for dear life because he loves him. But it doesn't detract from his love for Amy. I mean, we're talking about one night, right? Let's remember all the times Leonard has chose to hang out with the guys over spending time with Penny. But at this point I feel like I'm talking to wall, and my efforts are futile.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Maddie

[Tonstar17]

They have spent a night or two together, I'll give you that. I can think of one, maybe two, instances. The first was when he slept on her couch because he was freaking out over his haircut. And the second was when they "spent the night spooning" because Amy was upset over not being invited dress shopping, but that's debatable whether he stayed the whole night. But these were two instances in four years, and they were extenuating circumstances, where they were both in distress. It is not the norm for them to spend nights with each other, no. It is my complete understanding that they spend every night alone in their own beds, and until the writers give me something that refutes that, that is what I believe.

But like I've said repeatedly, this wasn't an episode about Shamy. Or Lenny. It was Shelnard. Sheldon is gonna hold onto Leonard for dear life because he loves him. But it doesn't detract from his love for Amy. I mean, we're talking about one night, right? Let's remember all the times Leonard has chose to hang out with the guys over spending time with Penny. But at this point I feel like I'm talking to wall, and my efforts are futile.

Keep talking to the wall, while you wait for an answer. probably better than what your posting.

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[Maddie]

The way I view the situation is that some Lennies are frustrated from the lack of Lenny love on the show, and they get frustrated that Sheldon is being inserted into Lenny scenes. That's understandable, whatever. I get it. But why feel the need to ridicule Shamy to make you feel better about Lenny? That's just childish.

[denajeanx]

LOL, feel free to think that. I could just as easily say that you need to think that to make yourself feel better about Shamy. But we've communicated enough to know that is not the case. I'm a bit disappointed that you think I would need this to feel better about Lenny. I'm disappointed that Sheldon is inserted into many of Lenny's scenes. Most of my posts have to do with disagreeing with examples given to dispute that.

 

I wasn't directing that towards you, specifically. That's my bad, I worded it poorly. 

 

My point is that it seems like there constantly has to be some kind of dig at Sheldon or Sheldon and Amy's relationship when *some* Lenny's are on the defense because things aren't going the way they envisioned. 

 

I am sure every Shamy shipper can relate to things not going their way. Having said that, I don't believe anyone tried to discount Lenny's relationship because things weren't going the way people wanted for Shamy. I think everyone was very happy when Lenny got engaged, ect. It seems now that every time something good happens for Shamy or there is a focus on Sheldon, it makes certain people feel like they need to sink the Shamy ship and make ridiculous comments. Misery enjoys company sorta thing, I suppose?

 

The entire notion that Amy or Leonard is more important to Sheldon is one of those ridiculous comments. They are important in different ways. Just like Penny is important to Leonard in different ways than Sheldon.