S8 Discussion Thread

[djsurrey]

No, I just meant it wasn't part of the argument/debate about Sheldon and Leonard's paper, or whatever other topics are going on.  My comment was just about a funny video of people who are so nutty they make Sheldon and his video look normal.

 

Oh, okay. I was asking if it was sarcasm because although there is a lively debate here regarding Sheldon and Leonard and the paper there are no lives at stake.

 

The mars-one thing kind of reminds me of the Beatles tune "you can drive my car" since the technology to get people safely to mars has not been built or tested.

[Tensor]

Sheldon didn't originally have the permission to write the paper, that is true.

Then why write it without asking Leonard, other than he thought he could do it better than Leonard.

 

Also, consent, in non criminal situations, is a big grey area.

Take Leonard's failed birthday surprise party in season one. Do you also think that Penny took away Leonard's consent and that she was in the wrong?

At least in this episode, it turned out well for Leonard.

This right here is why you give the impression that Sheldon can do no wrong. These are very dismissive and excusal of Sheldon's actions.

[Kasey]

Technically with Leonard's surprise birthday party, the only person it REALLY didn't work out well for was Howard...

[hokie3457]

No harm? What about Leonard's sense of accomplishment in seeing his idea through to the end by writing his own paper based on his idea helped by the math provided by Sheldon as a proof? Sheldon contributed, but Leonard would still be able to write the paper himself. Sheldon's action was pure arrogance, not unlike his telephone call to Dr. Beverly Hofstadter to inform her of her son's engagement. Wherever; whatever, it always has to be about Sheldon---regardless of his later attempts to make it right.

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Edited February 23, 2015 by hokie3457

[Nogravitasatall]

No harm? What about Leonard's sense of accomplishment in seeing his idea through to the end by writing his own paper based on his idea helped by the math provided by Sheldon as a proof? Sheldon contributed, but Leonard would still be able to write the paper himself. Sheldon's action was pure arrogance, not unlike his telephone call to Dr. Beverly Hofstadter to inform her of her son's engagement. Wherever; whatever, it always has to be about Sheldon---regardless of his later attempts to make it right.

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And what if this was a Higgs boson moment. The world would credit Dr Sheldon Cooper. Leonard would be a footnote. Oh the injustice!!!

Lol.

[nickelette424]

Leonard had the idea, Sheldon ran away with it. Leonard was not given a chance to approve of Sheldon doing that. All he could do was accept it as a done deal. Sheldon took away Leonard's choices. Consent matters.

And wow. This thing has legs.

That's not really true. Sheldon made the point to wait for Leonard before he did anything with the paper. Sheldon gave Leonard the opportunity to reject the idea. Sheldon getting excited about the idea and a little overzealous doesn't equal arrogance on his part. Sheldon is arrogant enough throughout each episode without trying to nitpick every move he makes to prove such arrogance.

[Mislav]

No harm? What about Leonard's sense of accomplishment in seeing his idea through to the end by writing his own paper based on his idea helped by the math provided by Sheldon as a proof? Sheldon contributed, but Leonard would still be able to write the paper himself. Sheldon's action was pure arrogance, not unlike his telephone call to Dr. Beverly Hofstadter to inform her of her son's engagement. Wherever; whatever, it always has to be about Sheldon---regardless of his later attempts to make it right.

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Leonard admitted that he wasn't very good at Math. And he asked for Sheldon's help. Even if he didn't contact Sheldon, he would likely find another mathematician to help him. It is quite possible that would have the same result.

If Leonard believed he was able to write the paper all by himself, why was he OK with Sheldon's paper?

Sheldon did write the paper, but Leonard agreed to have it published, as a joined work.

Then why write it without asking Leonard, other than he thought he could do it better than Leonard.

This right here is why you give the impression that Sheldon can do no wrong. These are very dismissive and excusal of Sheldon's actions.

How exactly is making a point about this situation saying that Sheldon can never do wrong?

[gsxdoug]

I think nickelette answered this already:

 

 

No, this is not an explanation of why Sheldon should be considered the lead scientist, because- as far as I can tell- nobody is making the contention that Sheldon should be considered the lead scientist. This is only why the magazine (in the episode) may make the decision to treat Sheldon as the lead scientist.

 

 

 

Nobody is claiming that it's a valid reason, are they? The mechanics of that entire plot were rather dumb (I thought). In real life, it is a bit silly for a scientific magazine to treat a two-author paper as though it were 'Cooper et al.', and it's also more than a bit silly for people in-show to behave as though the magazine doesn't have an online edition in which they can print a correction (it's a magazine, not the Ten Commandments). But hey-ho, the show needed a conflict, and I am happy for Leonard to get more diverse plots.

1. No, what I wrote is in the taping report. She got it wrong.

 

2. Actually, I'm questioning why the author of the article should consider Sheldon as "lead scientist."

 

3. a) I was being sarcastic. and b ) "it is a bit silly for a scientific magazine to treat a two-author paper as though it were 'Cooper et al" - this is exactly my point.

[Nogravitasatall]

That's not really true. Sheldon made the point to wait for Leonard before he did anything with the paper. Sheldon gave Leonard the opportunity to reject the idea. Sheldon getting excited about the idea and a little overzealous doesn't equal arrogance on his part. Sheldon is arrogant enough throughout each episode without trying to nitpick every move he makes to prove such arrogance.

He had the paper all written. What could Leonard do? Say no and look stupid, churlish and ungrateful. I'm saying Sheldon took away Leonard's right to make a choice. And all the downstream consequences flow from that. All the funny consequences. Because its not the real world. But I repeat that the Edison gag is key. Sheldon didn't invent it, yet Sheldon has gotten the first splash of publicity. Corrections go on page 6 or at the back. And who remembers the corrections. And how does one pronounce hyperbole? Hehehe.

[Tensor]

How exactly is making a point about this situation saying that Sheldon can never do wrong?

Because your explaining away his behavior with excuses. Let's stay with Sheldon not having permission to write the paper. Why write it without asking Leonard, other than he thought he could do it better than Leonard?

[wowbagger]

No harm? What about Leonard's sense of accomplishment in seeing his idea through to the end by writing his own paper based on his idea helped by the math provided by Sheldon as a proof? Sheldon contributed, but Leonard would still be able to write the paper himself. Sheldon's action was pure arrogance, not unlike his telephone call to Dr. Beverly Hofstadter to inform her of her son's engagement. Wherever; whatever, it always has to be about Sheldon---regardless of his later attempts to make it right.

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Here's the thing: 'the math provided by Sheldon' may have been an integral part of the paper itself. We're not talking about adding up a column of numbers here (and we already know that arithmetic is not Sheldon's strong suit!)

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it only once more before moving on: Leonard probably had a conjecture based on empirics. When he asked Sheldon whether there was something there, based on Sheldon's mathematical capabilities, he may have been asking whether his findings were generalisable. That's actually a bigger deal than checking someone's arithmetic.

 

Forgive me, but I think you're being a little patronising to Leonard when you treat him as a little boy running to Big Sheldon for help with math, and castigating Sheldon for taking away Leonard's chance to work on his own project. By assuming that Leonard approached Sheldon with something that he could have worked out for himself, you do both characters a disservice. Colleagues approach each other for help in areas out of their specific expertise. These guys are researchers at world-class institutions. I am assuming that any theoretical issue Leonard had was sufficiently advanced, and sufficiently specialised, that Leonard would not be expected to know it backwards and forwards.

 

And about Sheldon's behaviour in writing the paper: Leonard approached Sheldon with a query. Would we castigate Sheldon for taking the query seriously? Would we reproach him for getting excited about an exciting idea? I hope not. 

 

Would we reproach him for overstepping and writing a paper without asking for Leonard's express permission? Yes, and I do. But 

 

a ) he waits for Leonard's permission to submit the thing. Leonard has the opportunity to veto if he wants.

b ) this gets us back to the whole intellectual property thing, NoGav: I think it's a little murkier than 'Leonard's idea. Bagsie Leonard!'. Leonard comes up with an interesting hypothesis, yes. Does that mean that nobody else is allowed to think about it, work on it or get excited about it? Does it mean that Sheldon specifically isn't allowed to think about it or get excited about it without Leonard's say-so?

1. No, what I wrote is in the taping report. She got it wrong.

 

2. Actually, I'm questioning why the author of the article should consider Sheldon as "lead scientist."

 

3. a) I was being sarcastic. and b ) "it is a bit silly for a scientific magazine to treat a two-author paper as though it were 'Cooper et al" - this is exactly my point.

 

(blinks) okay, I think I really don't understand, because it seems to me we are in violent agreement here!

 

as to why the author of the article should consider Sheldon as 'lead scientist': well, we had an explanation in the taping report (author follows Sheldon's work yadda blee), which is what I believe nickelette was referring to.

 

As to why it happened in the episode? Look, I think the showrunners wanted a conflict (as I said later in my post) and were willing to ignore the way scientific publications actually work to do so.

Edited February 23, 2015 by wowbagger

[Mislav]

Because your explaining away his behavior with excuses. Let's stay with Sheldon not having permission to write the paper. Why write it without asking Leonard, other than he thought he could do it better than Leonard?

Leonard asked for Sheldon's opinion, and admitted that he wasn't good at Math, and that Sheldon is better at Math. Math was an important part of the paper. So how was Sheldon writing the paper without Leonard arrogance?

Sheldon wrote the paper and showed it to Leonard. He agreed for it to be published as a joined work. Leonard had every right to disagree or to protest, and Sheldon gave him a chance to do so by informimg him about what he did. But Leonard was OK with that.

I am not denying that Sheldon did so without a permission. But I don't think that is a proof of arrogance.

[wowbagger]

Let's stay with Sheldon not having permission to write the paper. Why write it without asking Leonard, other than he thought he could do it better than Leonard?

 

The way I envisage it was that Sheldon was working on the theory and got carried away. Especially since, as apparently happened ( I think?), he wrote the thing overnight. I can imagine Sheldon getting 'in the zone' and getting swept up in the tide of exciting work. It's happened to us all, no? I'm not saying that Sheldon WOULDN'T believe that he could write the paper better than Leonard. I'm just saying that in this case it really seems as though Sheldon just got carried away.

 

(Yes, yes, it's a stretch that he wrote the paper- apparently publishable!- overnight, but I whined already about that part of the story...)

[Nogravitasatall]

Unilaterally taking decisions without consultation in absence of pre-existing authority or permission is arrogance. But we know he is arrogant. He assumed Leonard would be grateful. The guy assume rights he does not have all the time.

I am wondering if they will stretch this over three episodes. Its a nice wedge. Clever.

[Kathleen]

Leonard told Sheldon that he couldn't work out the math. I've read a fair share of scientific papers and the math (especially in an area like physics) is extremely important. So Leonard had to know that Sheldon could possibly write the paper. I dont think that Sheldon stole Leonard's idea, I just think he expanded on it and gave it some meat. Though I don't agree with Sheldon's editorial decision, I don't think it was arrogance. 

[gsxdoug]

Leonard admitted that he wasn't very good at Math. And he asked for Sheldon's help.

No, Leonard admitted Sheldon was better with this particular kind of math. Not the same thing at all. and he asked for Sheldon's opinion, also not the same thing.

[Mislav]

No, Leonard admitted Sheldon was better with this particular kind of math. Not the same thing at all. and he asked for Sheldon's opinion, also not the same thing.

That particular kind of Math was needed for that paper to be completed.

[wowbagger]

Actually, I wish they had used something like that as the wedge- that is, Leonard bounces ideas off Sheldon, Sheldon works on it overnight and produces a paper, and Leonard feels weirded out. It would be realistic for Sheldon to say 'But we're co-authors! Did you WANT to be scooped?' and for Leonard to say 'This is just like you! You always assume I'll go along!', and I would have sympathy with both of them, and it would be a really good, meaty fight. Because the Scientific American thing- I don't know, it feels contrived. I can see the strings pushing Sheldon and Leonard to have their fight, and it seems like a waste, when there was good organic material to hand.

 

Ah well.

[Nogravitasatall]

That particular kind of Math was needed for that paper to be completed.

He said Sheldon was better. Leonard didn't say he could not do it himself. 173* IQ, remember.

I can drive, but I'm not Fangio. Still I'll get there.

 

*edit.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Nogravitasatall

[gsxdoug]

Here's the thing: 'the math provided by Sheldon' may have been an integral part of the paper itself.

 

(blinks) okay, I think I really don't understand, because it seems to me we are in violent agreement here!

 

as to why the author of the article should consider Sheldon as 'lead scientist': well, we had an explanation in the taping report (author follows Sheldon's work yadda blee), which is what I believe nickelette was referring to.

 

As to why it happened in the episode? Look, I think the showrunners wanted a conflict (as I said later in my post) and were willing to ignore the way scientific publications actually work to do so.

Perhaps so, but Leonard didn't ask Sheldon to write the paper for him and others could have done the math. Or Leonard could have written the paper himself with Sheldon's (or another particle physicist's) help.

And Nog is probably right that Leonard could do the math himself, maybe it would have just taken more effort on his part than Sheldon.

 

Of course the showrunners were trying to generate conflict. That doesn't invalidate my, or others, opinion on the matter.

That particular kind of Math was needed for that paper to be completed.

Again, Leonard didn't ask Sheldon to write the paper, and I doubt that Sheldon was the only person capable of doing the math.

Edited February 23, 2015 by gsxdoug

[Tensor]

The way I envisage it was that Sheldon was working on the theory and got carried away. Especially since, as apparently happened ( I think?), he wrote the thing overnight. I can imagine Sheldon getting 'in the zone' and getting swept up in the tide of exciting work. It's happened to us all, no? I'm not saying that Sheldon WOULDN'T believe that he could write the paper better than Leonard. I'm just saying that in this case it really seems as though Sheldon just got carried away.

 

(Yes, yes, it's a stretch that he wrote the paper- apparently publishable!- overnight, but I whined already about that part of the story...)

I can buy all of your comments (I wrote a post earlier today on my phone and I did something that deleted it). But there is a presumption of arrogance with Sheldon though all his demonstration of arrogance throughout the series. While he may have gotten into the zone, the decision to write the paper without consent is, in my opinion arrogance.

As far as Sheldon being the only one to do the math, In the deleted post, I pointed out that no one has commented on whether the math on the whiteboards represented something that only Sheldon could do. Remember, Leonard had the math up on the board asking Sheldon's opinion, so I find it silly that Leonard could do none of the math. The equations on the whiteboards aren't even String Theory, they are regular General Relativity and Quantum Field Theory. As it's a boundary problem, and it's low energy and low gravitational potential GR and QFT are perfect for this, string theory is not needed. This type of problem (not this particular problem) would be something PhD level students would be given to work through. Leonard has those skills, but you, as someone who has a foot in both theoretical and experimental should know, even if you have had the math skill set, if you are away from it for a while, you lose the sharp edge needed to there derivations and generalizations. That doesn't mean you can't do it, it just might take longer.

I have an understanding and can follow the math. Leonard has a working knowledge of the math. Sheldon works with the math. But if I can follow the math on the whiteboards, I find it difficult to believe the Sheldon would be the only one that could work it out. That said, why not ask your friend if it's a good idea or his opinion. I have yet to see anyone explain why the math on the whiteboards could only be done by sheldon.

[Mislav]

Perhaps so, but Leonard didn't ask Sheldon to write the paper for him and others could have done the math. Or Leonard could have written the paper himself with Sheldon's (or another particle physicist's) help.

And Nog is probably right that Leonard could do the math himself, maybe it would have just taken more effort on his part than Sheldon.

Of course the showrunners were trying to generate conflict. That doesn't invalidate my, or others, opinion on the matter.

Again, Leonard didn't ask Sheldon to write the paper, and I doubt that Sheldon was the only person capable of doing the math.

And again, what harm did Sheldon writing the paper cause?

The magazine thing wasn't his fault, and even if Leonard did do the paper with someone else, it is possible that the same thing would have happened. And Leonard got his credit at the end.

Also, nobody made Leomard agree with paper getting published. He decided that all on his own.

[tallin]

I can see how Sheldon can be BIG pain in the ass at times, but I really think you're being a little to rough on him in this occasion (no offense). To expect Sheldon will ask a permission before do the math or will just know  Leonard would feel sad without Amy enlighten him, it's what ability to read social situations or people in general will give you to react correctly and we all know Shedon doesn't have ANY. You can't judge fish by it's ability to climb a tree, you can't judge Sheldon by his ability to read social situations. It's on people around him to give him boundaries and tell him if they are uncomfortable with his behavior, it's really the only way to  make him react correctly in those situations. If Leonard wanted a permission he should told him, because to this day, Sheldon has no idea he did something wrong. For him innocent "I couldn't do the math like you would" can be permission, even if it's really not. And if Leonard would not like his work or want to do that by himself he would tell him. I doubt physicist on his level would want to risk his idea by bad work of someone else just because he could look ungrateful. Even while Sheldon could correct the authors of that article, It was still Leonard's problem in majority - he was overlooked because the author of article made an unprofessional choice, by assuming Sheldon was lead author, just because  "Apparently the reporter was following Sheldon's work for a while and the magazine only did the story because Sheldon's name was attached to it" ( quoted from TR).. He should call by himself and explain the situation, demand correction or at least apology - I don't think he  handled that the best way either. But it's sitcom, no room for only reasonable right decisions, or characters. Maybe it will have interesting influence in the future... maybe just work success, maybe Leonard will be now able to stand up to Sheldon more often, maybe Sheldon will be able to appreciate him more if he will work with him. I would like to see this plot playing out  more in the future and I think there can be interesting stories from these two working together, even while I hope it will not involve diminish Leonard's contribution in the future, cause it's something I'm really not happy about. Still I think it can be interesting topic to conversation this difference between what's more important, idea or execution ? I don't think it's so clear in every field, and I like that BBT is dropping some controversial topics from real life to the show.

[Mislav]

I can buy all of your comments (I wrote a post earlier today on my phone and I did something that deleted it). But there is a presumption of arrogance with Sheldon though all his demonstration of arrogance throughout the series. While he may have gotten into the zone, the decision to write the paper without consent is, in my opinion arrogance.

As far as Sheldon being the only one to do the math, In the deleted post, I pointed out that no one has commented on whether the math on the whiteboards represented something that only Sheldon could do. Remember, Leonard had the math up on the board asking Sheldon's opinion, so I find it silly that Leonard could do none of the math. The equations on the whiteboards aren't even String Theory, they are regular General Relativity and Quantum Field Theory. As it's a boundary problem, and it's low energy and low gravitational potential GR and QFT are perfect for this, string theory is not needed. This type of problem (not this particular problem) would be something PhD level students would be given to work through. Leonard has those skills, but you, as someone who has a foot in both theoretical and experimental should know, even if you have had the math skill set, if you are away from it for a while, you lose the sharp edge needed to there derivations and generalizations. That doesn't mean you can't do it, it just might take longer.

I have an understanding and can follow the math. Leonard has a working knowledge of the math. Sheldon works with the math. But if I can follow the math on the whiteboards, I find it difficult to believe the Sheldon would be the only one that could work it out. That said, why not ask your friend if it's a good idea or his opinion. I have yet to see anyone explain why the math on the whiteboards could only be done by sheldon.

I agree that Sheldon can be arrogant at times, but I don't think the paper thing was a proof of that. I actually think that was one of the first episode to actually show his character development.

[wowbagger]

Perhaps so, but Leonard didn't ask Sheldon to write the paper for him and others could have done the math. Or Leonard could have written the paper himself with Sheldon's (or another particle physicist's) help.

And Nog is probably right that Leonard could do the math himself, maybe it would have just taken more effort on his part than Sheldon.

 

Of course the showrunners were trying to generate conflict. That doesn't invalidate my, or others, opinion on the matter.

Again, Leonard didn't ask Sheldon to write the paper, and I doubt that Sheldon was the only person capable of doing the math.

 

(sigh) I wrote a response to this, and then navigated away and lost my reply. Here goes again....

 

Item: I actually agree with you that Sheldon overstepped by writing the paper without Leonard's permission. But look, has it never happened to you that you get caught up in an exciting piece of work? And Sheldon waited for Leonard's permission before submitting the paper. Yes, he crossed the mark, but in this case I actually think it was overzealousness rather than arrogance or anything more sinister.

 

Item: I have not said that Sheldon is the only person who could have come up with the theory. I am supremely uninterested in that question, actually. Was Leonard the only one who could have come up with the idea? Who even cares? Leonard did come up with the conjecture, and he sensibly approached a theorist with the capability to have a conversation about the merits of the conjecture.

 

Item: Why do I say 'sensibly'? Because I assume that Leonard, a grown-ass man and a researcher at a top institution, would only approach a theorist about advanced mathematics that an experimental physicist wouldn't be expected to have at the tips of his fingers. Can Leonard work it out for himself? Maybe. Eventually. But why should he? He belongs to a research community for a reason. If he has colleagues with whom he can get his findings out faster and more elegantly, it's irresponsible to grunt and sweat in isolation just to prove a point, and risk getting scooped in the process.

 

Item: I am not trying to invalidate your opinion, only to understand it. In your posts, I thought you were asking why the authors of the article (the SA one, I assume?) took Sheldon to be the lead scientist. There's no sensible real-world explanation for this sort of fanboying in a respectable publication, so my response was 'The showrunners wanted Sheldon and Leonard to fight, so they contrived an increasingly thin-looking setup.' I agree with your opinion that it's a dumb scenario- violently, as I said before!

Edited February 23, 2015 by wowbagger