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bigbangsheldon

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Cheating is cheating............there is no degree of cheating 

So a kiss is equivalent to fucking? Of course you tried to compare a drunken kiss to killing someone while drunk driving in another post so...

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and about what other stuff you say......what happens if the same *understandable circumstance* happens again.......can he be trusted....no way......

 

Has that specific circumstance happened again? (that's a rhetorical question by the way)

Edited by meka3000

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I don't think it was selfish.  I think it would have been harder if the truth had come out at some later date and she realized he'd been hiding something from her all along.

And while Penny may be miffed about it, I don't think it's a matter of anxiety or burden that got shifted over to her.

She hadn't told him that she hid her engagement ring and got flirty with her clients until her back was against the wall.

While that may not rise to the same level as a drunken, regretted kiss, I don't think that it unduly burdened her.

 

Yeah, they're going to have to smooth it out, but it's obviously not a deal breaker.  I think it ruined the mood, but it's not something to break up over at this point in their lives.

 

And now that it's in the open it can be dealt with.  Maybe she'll make him pay some kind of pennance for it, or maybe she'll just forgive him because she loves him, but I don't think the solution would be to have kept it a secret.  The more the secret is kept, the more significance it may take on.  In fact, if it had come up when he first got back, they might have had some difficulty over it, but then by the time they got engaged, it would have been more water under the bridge.  But because he waited, then it seems like it was more serious, more worthy of hiding than it really was.

 

I think it's good that he confessed, though, admittedly, it was bad timing.  Even so, confession is better than lying, especially going in.

 

Perhaps it was not selfish. Still it was not a good idea.

 

If it was just left alone it would not have been lying. It would have been a dead issue that never came up in conversation. He suddenly made it an issue worth talking about. Sometimes one has to let the sleeping dog lie.

 

If he is still obsessing over it he needs some counseling I think; but not from Penny in this case.

 

He certainly did not wait two years to tell Priya about the other kiss. If one is going to come clean then it should be done when it means something and not two years later. 

 

I agree that by waiting it makes it seem more serious than it was. Leonard obsesses too much for his own good.

 

More generally I'd say:

  1. don't cheat
  2. if you fail with 1. get counseling from someone you can trust other than your significant other.
  3. don't let it happen again.

I'd recommend against the pop psychology idea of confessing these things to your significant other. The important thing is to get straightened out and not do them!

I'm not suggesting a person start lying but they not bring it up unnecessarily. Both lying and cheating destroy trust. Coming clean does not fix it. Coming clean years later sure is not going to help.

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I guess I will spend summer thinking there is more to the story than we're being told and that Leonard is still a decent guy

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Perhaps it was not selfish. Still it was not a good idea.

 

If it was just left alone it would not have been lying.

I disagree, lying by omission is still lying.  Also him lying and saying they both had no regrets only for her to discover that that wasn't true later on would've been shameful in my opinion.  YMMV

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I still think it's Penny's problem about making a decision. I'd not like to be Leonard right now. He did not have to say anything. He could of happily kept quiet about one moment a long time ago and far, far away. He had two years to show that he had no intention of doing anything further in that direction and he did, and he and Penny have deepened their entanglement since then... except that they only got engaged and made no further steps towards actually deepening their entaglement. If fact in the last 10 months Penny handed him back his gift of a car, acceded to the nutjob's decree that she regulate her sex life according to his timetable, publicly and for commercial gain obfuscated about her relationship status, indulged in an experiment to fall in love with another guy, (the same one that regulates her sex life), makes plans for a change of career again without discussing it with her fiancé (but she's ok with discussing it with the sex regulator), makes plans to invest her now considerable earnings without discussing "their" future with Leonard and then spontaneously decided to rush to Vegas, where she can "do over" the earlier legal marriage she did with a guy who thought her friends were going to blow up the moon.

So Penny has to worry about whether she should go ahead now, after Leonard's confession? Sure, let's go with that. LOL. /s

Edited by Nogravitasatall

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On a different note, please don't tell me I was the only one who HAD TO solve the math problem in Chuck's vanity card...

 

Nope, that was the first thing I noticed in that vanity card.   :icon_cheesygrin:

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Um yeah there is, In The Good Guy Flucuation, Leonard screwed up a LITTLE by kissing and being tempted by Alice (but owned up to it), Priya screwed up ALOT by sleeping with an ex-boyfriend (and she couldn't be bothered to see the difference in the degree of wrong she was in).

 

Also how much of a clear picture do you ACTUALLY have of what happened on the boat?  You haven't been given much of a clear picture of what happened, but yet you seem DEAD SET on throwing the book at Leonard EVEN THOUGH you DON'T KNOW all the specific details of what happened during that time or how everything went down.

 

what specific details do you want..... I have no idea...

 

from what leonard said it was pretty clear that no matter who initiliazed the kiss he reciprocated it..........as simple as that....

 

So a kiss is equivalent to fucking? Of course you tried to compare a drunken kiss to killing someone while drunk driving in another post so...

 

um....never said that before.....so i have no idea what you are talking about.....

 

and kiss is not equivalent to having sex.....but cheating is cheating.......

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from what leonard said it was pretty clear that no matter who initiliazed the kiss he reciprocated it..........as simple as that....

 

And you don't think the alcohol in his system might have had anything to do with his reaction time?  :icon_rolleyes:   Also how do you know how much of the kiss he reciprocated?

 

and kiss is not equivalent to having sex.....but cheating is cheating.......

 

Except one of those deserves a bigger punishment then the other.  It's not as black and white as you are seemingly making it out to be.

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There was mention of the kiss being not a big deal because it happened before they were engaged?

Engaged or not, Leonard had no business kissing another woman when he's supposed to be in love with Penny

Also before he went he was worried about screwing things up being how great Lenny were at the time and remember how Leonard came home early from trip?

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Engaged or not, Leonard had no business kissing another woman when he's supposed to be in love with Penny

 

No one is saying Leonard is blameless in this situation.  Just that some of us think that the amount of blame people have applied to Leonard given the circumstances has been overstated.

 

At least IMO.

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Bullshit.  Not everyone is going to agree on what exactly cheating is and what the reaction should be.  Telling others their reactions are overstated makes it sound as if you are some how the final authority on cheating.  You're not.  Their opinions are not overstated, your's just sound as if you are nothing more than an apologist for Leonard.  

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Bullshit.  Not everyone is going to agree on what exactly cheating is and what the reaction should be.  Telling others their reactions are overstated makes it sound as if you are some how the final authority on cheating.  You're not.  Their opinions are not overstated, your's just sound as if you are nothing more than an apologist for Leonard.  

Um, meka just said some of us think the reactions were overstated. In other words, he expressed an opinion which is just as valid as yours that they weren't. 

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Bullshit.  Not everyone is going to agree on what exactly cheating is and what the reaction should be.

 

Where did I say everyone would?

 

Telling others their reactions are overstated makes it sound as if you are some how the final authority on cheating.  You're not.

 

Except I said "some of us THINK" impying that some of us share this opinion.  Where have I said I or you or anyone else has final say on the morality scale?  All I've tried to get across is I find some people's reactions to Leonard's actions to be a bit extreme.  If somebody doesn't like my opinion on their opinion, I more than welcome someone saying why he/she disagrees with me.

 

Their opinions are not overstated

 

Can you actually prove that one way or another?

 

your's just sound as if you are nothing more than an apologist for Leonard.

 

Sound as if?  Where did I say Leonard was blameless in all of this?  I think he handled the situation in poor fashion (mostly in not coming clean sooner); but I don't think that means he is beyond redemption.

 

I've stated this or words specific to how I feel about this AD NAUSEUM ever since the episode aired yesterday in that I feel Leonard screwed up but I don't think he screwed up to the degree that others on the other end of the extreme feel he has.  THAT is all just MY OPINION

Edited by meka3000

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When has Penny cheated? ( as a stupid teenager in Nebraska?) Not while she's known Leonard in this show.

Well, vasu said that if you cheat once, you can not be trusted, like, ever.

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um....never said that before.....so i have no idea what you are talking about.....

 

and kiss is not equivalent to having sex.....but cheating is cheating.......

I'll withdraw the comment. I know I saw it posted by someone. Sorry if it wasn't you. 

 

Cheating may be cheating, but some transgressions are a lot worse than others, and people make mistakes. I don't believe that a mere kiss is absolutely unforgivable. As I said up thread, I've personally known people who have forgiven far worse and are still very happy together. 

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So if I'm a 10 year old and I kiss a girl behind my girls back I carry that for the rest of my life? Teenage history shouldn't be counted here. I'm not taking vasu' opinion as gospel on this one. During the history of the show, while knowing Leonard, she has a clean slate. Until the writers retcon her character ( and who knows they might ) Penny is not even a near cheater. Raj doesn't count. Zac doesn't count. She even pined for Leonard before they were official. Penny has many flaws as an adult - cheating is not one of them.

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So if I'm a 10 year old and I kiss a girl behind my girls back I carry that for the rest of my life? Teenage history shouldn't be counted here. I'm not taking vasu' opinion as gospel on this one. During the history of the show, while knowing Leonard, she has a clean slate. Until the writers retcon her character ( and who knows they might ) Penny is not even a near cheater. Raj doesn't count. Zac doesn't count. She even pined for Leonard before they were official. Penny has many flaws as an adult - cheating is not one of them.

I'm thinking it's not a tit-for-tat thing. It's no excuse if both partners are equally bad, because that's just dysfunctional, so I'd ignore Penny's history, whatever it holds. This is about Leonard being dishonest for a moment. And then regretting it for two years, and likely forever, because she will remember. I'd hope they can get through this. Penny knows now that Leonard isn't the paragon she might of thought, that she can take for granted. She knows he can be a jerk and is fallible. He is knocked off his pedestal. But past performance is not always a predictor of the future. If anyone says "once a cheater, always a cheater" then I think they are wrong. It's not an absolute. The event was a product of environment, opportunity and human weakness in an unusual circumstance. He knows now that he is weak and hopefully has learned how to resist his weakness. He has the capacity to avoid this happening again. If the same circumstance arose again, would he behave the same? I'd think he would not, because he carried the weight of the regret for two years, which shows he felt remorse and would likely act differently. And having exchanged promises has changed everything since then. Exchanging vows likely changes things even further.

What if she forgives him and he never does it again? Well, that's a happy ending. Or should she dump him now, without a chance of redemption? I'd hope not. Miserable ending. This is part of them growing up and being grown up. That's why I like them. They are becoming adults (bloody slowly this season). This is not about me being an apologist for Leonard. This is about recognising that people need to be forgiven sometimes. It's a pretty tough scenario for a comedy though. Tough for the viewers as well, watching him fall off the pedestal.

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Tough for the viewers as well, watching him fall off the pedestal.

 

Leonard fell off his pedestal a long time ago, in the Good Guy Fluctuation.

 

Penny shouldn't really be surprised to learn he cheated, since she knew he cheated on Priya.

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Leonard fell off his pedestal a long time ago, in the Good Guy Fluctuation.

Penny shouldn't really be surprised to learn he cheated, since she knew he cheated on Priya.

Circumstances alter cases. I wasn't bothered by that one. Priya having bailed back to India distinguishes it for me. And Alice was there, structurally, to put in the full stop to the whole Priya-Leonard story and get back to the main game.

Leonard has previous even before that, he didn't show any remorse to Howard with the Dr Stephanie nonsense

Totally different scenario. All preceding cases are distinguished, if you take the time to work through them. What's relevant for me is now, where, since the troublesome event, formal promises have been made between two competent adults. Nothing like pinky swears or whatever between two single men about an their arrangements regarding the disposition of a third party who was not involved in the negotiations (Leonard and Howard) or extended and unhappy booty calls like Priya and Leonard. :) I'ts obvious they were the wrong girls for Leonard.

Edit: but the thing is Penny knows all that about him. I don't have to defend him. She has to decide if she wants him. Everything that has happened in his past, she knows like we know. Unless he had some other relationship I've forgetten, that Penny doesn't know about.

Edit2: and as anybody who has been paying attention knows, Leonard went in other directions because Penny kept him at arms length. She knows that too. They were meant for each other. The sucky thing about this is that Leonard screwed it up all on his own. penny has to save him from himself here.

Edited by Nogravitasatall

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Circumstances alter cases. I wasn't bothered by that one. Priya having bailed back to India distinguishes it for me. And Alice was there, structurally, to put in the full stop to the whole Priya-Leonard story and get back to the main game..

I agree with this to the point that yes it was to end the Priya/Leonard relationship and yes Alice was there. Do we forget that now Leonard was once again thousands of miles away from his girlfriend and an opportunity presented itself.

I'm not saying that these two won't be fine but to say Alice was there and Priya was long distance. Same circumstances with him and Penny. We know he wanted to marry Penny he had already proposed twice. In good guy he told Penny he loved Priya and that he could possibly see them getting married.

I don't know. He seems to love someone then have a slip up but I'm sure Penny and Leonard will get married just not now.

They will get through this.

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