S8 Discussion Thread

[Mislav]

Circumstances alter cases. I wasn't bothered by that one. Priya having bailed back to India distinguishes it for me. And Alice was there, structurally, to put in the full stop to the whole Priya-Leonard story and get back to the main game.

Totally different scenario. All preceding cases are distinguished, if you take the time to work through them. What's relevant for me is now, where, since the troublesome event, formal promises have been made between two competent adults. Nothing like pinky swears or whatever between two single men about an their arrangements regarding the disposition of a third party who was not involved in the negotiations (Leonard and Howard) or extended and unhappy booty calls like Priya and Leonard. I'ts obvious they were the wrong girls for Leonard.

Edit: but the thing is Penny knows all that about him. I don't have to defend him. She has to decide if she wants him. Everything that has happened in his past, she knows like we know. Unless he had some other relationship I've forgetten, that Penny doesn't know about.

Edit2: and as anybody who has been paying attention knows, Leonard went in other directions because Penny kept him at arms length. She knows that too. They were meant for each other. The sucky thing about this is that Leonard screwed it up all on his own. penny has to save him from himself here.

I don't consider the dr. Stephanie thing as cheating because she and Howard weren't formally dating and she didn't even know that she was on a date with Howard. It did bother me that Leonard kept pursuing her while Howard still thought that he had a chance with her and that he waited so long to admit it. Given his distress over Penny sleeping with Raj when they weren't even in a relationship and while he was dating Priya (though the relationship was going through the crisis), I am sure that he would have reacted much worse if he were in Howard's place. (Penny's "screw him" response regarding Howard when Leonard asked her what to do was pretty bad too, especially keeping in mind the fact how she had reacted upon seeing her ex boyfriend-from years back-have a dinner with his current girlfriend on Valentine's Day. Not to mention her saying that he should marry Bernadette because no other girl would ever want him-girl, he's not some second class citizen and he has a right to make a choice, especially regarding a pre nup.) And him making fun of Howard years later when Howard was upset over him spending so much time with Bernadette doesn't help the case. But he did set up Howard with Stephanie's roommate, so it is not like he is unrepentat or that he would just ditch his friends because of a girl. And Howard should have been acting better himself (regarding that dr. Stephanie). Edited May 9, 2015 by Mislav

[stardustmelody]

Does anyone think Emily is actually kind of testing Raj's willingness to go along with her fascination for horror?   Something about the way Laura played her in the finale made me feel like she isn't really as creepy as she was purposely portraying.   There is something about the way she looks at him each time as if she is making a mental note or judgment when she brings up a creepy thing...like the head she wanted turned into a lamp...she looks at him as if she is specifically testing his level of tolerance.   Same with in the graveyard.   I don't know...it just came across more like a "test" to me than a reality.  Although I still have a curiosity as to why she would feel a need to test him.  Is it for how loyal he is?  How much he cares for her?  Or what...but it just came across that way to me.

Edited May 9, 2015 by stardustmelody

[Earnie]

For those of you who think that L/P will break up over is sadly mistaken the writers have invested too much time in to this couple to throw it all away in my opinion Leonard confession is being used as a way to delay the marriage I would have preferred them to do it a different way but there is nothing we can do about it the writers know fans want a big wedding for L/P not a Vegas elopement. Yes what Leonard did on the boat was wrong but not unforgiveable. Having said all this  we may find  L/P in Season 9 episode 1 in a Vegas Hotel room in bed wearing nothing but wedding bands on each other's finger

[Chrismo]

Does anyone think Emily is actually kind of testing Raj's willingness to go along with her fascination for horror? Something about the way Laura played her in the finale made me feel like she isn't really as creepy as she was purposely portraying. There is something about the way she looks at him each time as if she is making a mental note or judgment when she brings up a creepy thing...like the head she wanted turned into a lamp...she looks at him as if she is specifically testing his level of tolerance. Same with in the graveyard. I don't know...it just came across more like a "test" to me than a reality. Although I still have a curiosity as to why she would feel a need to test him. Is it for how loyal he is? How much he cares for her? Or what...but it just came across that way to me.

i agree. I got that idea with her wanting to buy the lamp. She was putting the lamp back. Also she was very aware of Raj wanting to break up with her. Obviously she doesn't want to break up with him because the opportunity was there. I would of liked to see Raj go through with the break up and see if Emily was willing to change her creepy ways for him. Edited May 9, 2015 by Chrismo

[djsurrey]

Does anyone think Emily is actually kind of testing Raj's willingness to go along with her fascination for horror?   Something about the way Laura played her in the finale made me feel like she isn't really as creepy as she was purposely portraying.   There is something about the way she looks at him each time as if she is making a mental note or judgment when she brings up a creepy thing...like the head she wanted turned into a lamp...she looks at him as if she is specifically testing his level of tolerance.   Same with in the graveyard.   I don't know...it just came across more like a "test" to me than a reality.  Although I still have a curiosity as to why she would feel a need to test him.  Is it for how loyal he is?  How much he cares for her?  Or what...but it just came across that way to me.

 

I think we will not know Emily's deal until it plays out. I think the ambiguity is intentional.

[djsurrey]

For those of you who think that L/P will break up over is sadly mistaken the writers have invested too much time in to this couple to throw it all away in my opinion Leonard confession is being used as a way to delay the marriage I would have preferred them to do it a different way but there is nothing we can do about it the writers know fans want a big wedding for L/P not a Vegas elopement. Yes what Leonard did on the boat was wrong but not unforgiveable. Having said all this  we may find  L/P in Season 9 episode 1 in a Vegas Hotel room in bed wearing nothing but wedding bands on each other's finger

 

I'm guessing you are essentially right but for a different reason. I don't expect this episode to have any lasting effect on Leonard and Penny because I think that storyline was contrived to parallel what was happening with Sheldon and Amy who have been the focus of most of season 8.

 

Of course these writers have surprised me many times. We can't really know until we get the taping report for the opener.

[Tensor]

Can you actually prove that one way or another?

Not any more than you can prove others are overreacting. It's my opinion about your opinion.

[Carlos]

Rachel I usually respect your opinions , and it's true that Leonard cheated (not grossly, but he cheated) on Priya, but you are way off with your comment regarding him and Howard in regards to Dr. Stephanie, because she was not Howard's girlfriend or anything even close. Besides that Leonard felt bad about it, and it was Dr. Stephanie the one who convinced him to go ahead with their relationship. Also the people who said that Penny should expect it because he did it to Priya don't really know what they're talking about, since it's clear from all the history we've had until now (canon) that he didn't love Priya nearly as much as he said he did. Don't misunderstand me, What he did with Alice was wrong, but things aren't as absolute as some people paint them to be.

Stardust: Maybe Emily is testing Raj, but the only thing that test would prove is how much or how little of a man Raj is. She knows Raj has a low threshold for gore, so there's is no need to test limits she's aware of. The only thing that would be accomplished by testing him (if indeed she is) is how much he's willing to put up with before he shows his true feelings. I didn't like the fact that Raj was such a coward in the cemetery.

[RudyG]

I don't consider the dr. Stephanie thing as cheating because she and Howard weren't formally dating and she didn't even know that she was on a date with Howard. It did bother me that Leonard kept pursuing her while Howard still thought that he had a chance with her and that he waited so long to admit it. Given his distress over Penny sleeping with Raj when they weren't even in a relationship and while he was dating Priya (though the relationship was going through the crisis), I am sure that he would have reacted much worse if he were in Howard's place. (Penny's "screw him" response regarding Howard when Leonard asked her what to do was pretty bad too, especially keeping in mind the fact how she had reacted upon seeing her ex boyfriend-from years back-have a dinner with his current girlfriend on Valentine's Day. Not to mention her saying that he should marry Bernadette because no other girl would ever want him-girl, he's not some second class citizen and he has a right to make a choice, especially regarding a pre nup.) And him making fun of Howard years later when Howard was upset over him spending so much time with Bernadette doesn't help the case. But he did set up Howard with Stephanie's roommate, so it is not like he is unrepentat or that he would just ditch his friends because of a girl. And Howard should have been acting better himself (regarding that dr. Stephanie).

I think you have to remember that Howard from season 2 is a much different man then Howard present. Howard pre Bernadette was a sleaze ball. He repeatedly tried to hit on Penny when Howard knew that Leonard had a thing for her. Remember Howard tried to force a kiss on Penny, and that Howard tried to pick up Penny using the same tactic he used on Dr. Stephanie. Even Howard admits that he's not the same man he was before because Bernadette made him a better man, and that he was disgusted by how he was before.

[Mislav]

Rachel I usually respect your opinions , and it's true that Leonard cheated (not grossly, but he cheated) on Priya, but you are way off with your comment regarding him and Howard in regards to Dr. Stephanie, because she was not Howard's girlfriend or anything even close. Besides that Leonard felt bad about it, and it was Dr. Stephanie the one who convinced him to go ahead with their relationship. Also the people who said that Penny should expect it because he did it to Priya don't really know what they're talking about, since it's clear from all the history we've had until now (canon) that he didn't love Priya nearly as much as he said he did. Don't misunderstand me, What he did with Alice was wrong, but things aren't as absolute as some people paint them to be.

Stardust: Maybe Emily is testing Raj, but the only thing that test would prove is how much or how little of a man Raj is. She knows Raj has a low threshold for gore, so there's is no need to test limits she's aware of. The only thing that would be accomplished by testing him (if indeed she is) is how much he's willing to put up with before he shows his true feelings. I didn't like the fact that Raj was such a coward in the cemetery.

I was quite bothered with Leonard's behavior in that episode because I didn't like him pursuing her while Howard still thought that he had a channce with her and that it took him so long to confess. Penny's attitude was pretty bad too. That is why I really disliked Leonard's behavior in The Gorilla Experiment. But I agree, that wasn't cheating. I don't consider that Priya thing cheating either, but it still wasn't a right thing to do.

I agree with the cemetery. Writers had gone way over the line with Emily's creepyness. Personally I don't see why so many people seem to afere her. It just shows how desperate Raj is for affection and how little self respect he has. It is pretty sad.

I think you have to remember that Howard from season 2 is a much different man then Howard present. Howard pre Bernadette was a sleaze ball. He repeatedly tried to hit on Penny when Howard knew that Leonard had a thing for her. Remember Howard tried to force a kiss on Penny, and that Howard tried to pick up Penny using the same tactic he used on Dr. Stephanie. Even Howard admits that he's not the same man he was before because Bernadette made him a better man, and that he was disgusted by how he was before.

Howard tried to kiss Penny, he didn't try forcing a kiss. Forcing a kiss would mean that threatening or a physical force was involved. Being bad at flirting does not equal being a sleaze bag. Whenever he would realize that a woman wasn't interested, he would back off. The only case where that wouldn't apply was with Penny, which is why I think that Penny's attitude towards him was justified but only in part in that episode that shall not be named. (Though Penny never specifically told him up until that point that he was making her feel uncomfortable, she would just respond by a sarcastic remark.) He never cheated on anyone, had an STD or even bizarre sexual fetishes as far as we know. The reason he is disgusted by that behavior is because he now realizes that it was, in part, his way of compensating for loneliness, not because the things that he did years ago were outrageous. Having a threesome isn't something particularly disgusting, and the prostitute thing happened in Vegas, where that is even legal. Edited May 10, 2015 by Mislav

[Kathy2611]

She wasn't even Howard's girlfriend. She was just a girl he picked up in a bar. How? He told her she could drive a car on Mars. Which is when he called the guys to help him out and Leonard was "assigned" to drive her home.

And actually prostitution is illegal in Clark county which is where Las Vegas is located. She even asks Leonard & Raj if they are cops when they ask her if she's a prostitute.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Kathr2611

[Mislav]

She wasn't even Howard's girlfriend. She was just a girl he picked up in a bar. How? He told her she could drive a car on Mars. Which is when he called the guys to help him out and Leonard was "assigned" to drive her home.

And actually prostitution is illegal in Clark county which is where Las Vegas is located. She even asks Leonard & Raj if they are cops when they ask her if she's a prostitute.

I apologize if I got that wrong, I have to check the laws. I know that it is legal in some areas in USA (hardly any). But the show made it clear that that woman was mature and in a control of a situation. He didn't victimize her or anything.

I didn't say that she was Howard's girlfriend, but despite that Leonard and Penny's attitudes in that episode didn't seem very considerate, especially given the fact that he was upset over Penny sleeping with Raj at the time they weren't dating (partially justified by the fact that they dating in the past and that his relationship with Priya was going through the crisis) and that he made it Very clear that he was against Howard trying to woo Penny at the time they weren't dating (then or before) and he hadn't even expressed his interest in her (So, can I have Penny?-Hell no!) (See the similarity?) Or keeping in mind Penny's reactions two years ago during the Valentine's Day dinner.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Mislav

[Tensor]

In Nevada, state law makes prostitution  illegal in any county that has more than 700,000 residents.  Which makes Clarke county (which includes Las Vegas) the only county where it is illegal by state law.  Other counties can ban prostituion, and four others have.   It is legal in the other 12 counties.   Interestingly, the vast majority of prostitution in Nevada occurs illegally in Reno and Las Vegas. 

[Stephen Hawking]

An interesting factoid.

 

Did you know that prostitution is legal in the UK.

[Guest]

I don't know but I think the writers are doing a number on Lenny to make the shamy look better so that they can concentrate on them

[Tonstar17]

I don't know but I think the writers are doing a number on Lenny to make the shamy look better so that they can concentrate on them

Just like they have turned Leonard into a bad guy this season to make Sheldon the good guy. Reverse roles me think.

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[jenafan]

I have not kept up with all the Lenny commentary. So, I may be repeating what has already been mentioned.

I want to say that I don't think Leonard cheated on Penny. He made a mistake and stopped it. Give the guy a break. What I do have a problem with is why he felt the need to tell Penny just before they get married.

Someone suggested it might be Leonard's passive way of letting Penny know that like her, people find him attractive, too. Not necessary. Even though Penny is portrayed as having a promiscuous past, we've seen Leonard in bed with many woman and essentially prostitute himself with an older woman to get a school grant. For someone who Penny implies is mediocre in the bedroom, he gets a lot of action.

Penny and Leonard have always been back and forth bickering, comparing each other, defensive, and shown ambiguity regarding where their relationship is headed. Neither have convinced me they are ready for marriage. Leoanard is constantly jealous and insecure. Penny is always making fun of him. Does either respect the other?

I agree with Penny. I think Leonard is unknowingly sabotaging the relationship and Penny is trying to say his revelation doesn't bother her when it clearly does.

And a Vegas wedding? Does Penny not remember that she has already BTDT with Zack?

Obviously, there is a reason I don't participate in the Lenny ship zone. Their relationship works for them, and I believe they will eventually get married. However, I must confess that I should have a bald spot from all the head scratching trying to figure out why these two think they are happy.

Edited May 11, 2015 by jenafan

[meka3000]

What I do have a problem with is why he felt the need to tell Penny just before they get married.

 

So he should've kept a secret that she might have a problem with from her instead of laying it bear before they get married?  Should he have done it sooner, yes.  But get married and not tell her?  I draw the line there.

 

Penny and Leonard have always been back and forth bickering, comparing each other, defensive, and shown ambiguity regarding where their relationship is headed. 

 

Always bickering?  I don't agree with that at all.  While I agree with the bolded parts. Ever since the end of season 7 has been the most non-ambiguous their relationship has been in the series.

 

Leoanard is constantly jealous and insecure.

 

I wouldn't say it's constant. And the jealous stuff stopped in season 6.

 

Penny is always making fun of him.

 

Most of that has been playful teasing, which I see as relatively harmless.

 

Does either respect the other?

 

Of course they do, just because the relationship is not perfect doesn't mean there isn't any respect between them.

 

And a Vegas wedding? Does Penny not remember that she has already BTDT with Zack?

 

Different circumstances, also my Uncle and his gf had a shotgun wedding 6 years ago in Vegas (are family had a wedding reception for them 4 months later) and are still happily married today.  Not that I think L & P will go through with the shotgun wedding, but for some couples there ARE circumstances where it can work out for them.

I must confess that I should have a bald spot from all the head scratching trying to figure out why these two think they are happy.

 

So because they have disagreements sometimes, means that they aren't happy with each other?  I guess I should be scratching my head asking why my parents are still happy together, because I CLEARLY remember them doing their fair share of arguing while growing up.  

Just like they have turned Leonard into a bad guy this season to make Sheldon the good guy. Reverse roles me think.

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How has Leonard been turned into a bad guy? 

[Tonstar17]

 

 

How has Leonard been turned into a bad guy? 

 

umm. the way he has been treated this season, where do you want me to start.

He now lies to Penny (Alot)

he is a cheapskate (the same guy who paid her rent and brought her ticket to fly home and other stuff which came up to $14.000 )

He has no money or is that a lie too. (for godsake he shares an apartment and he doesnt have to look after Penny anymore but we are meant to believe he is skint.) give me a break.

he is now a serial cheater (not the first time his done this).

[meka3000]

He now lies to Penny (Alot)

 

Two lies does not equal ALOT.

 

he is a cheapskate

 

So you know for sure how much the ring cost him, just because it was a fortune doesn't automatically mean it was cheap?

 

(the same guy who paid her rent and brought her ticket to fly home and other stuff which came up to $14.000 )

 

He also got her a necklace that was half off in season 6, where's that complaint?

 

He has no money or is that a lie too. (for godsake he shares an apartment and he doesnt have to look after Penny anymore but we are meant to believe he is skint.) give me a break.

 

You think paying for student loans to go to Princeton would be easy to pay off?  Also how do you know him helping Penny wasn't a financial burden for him in any of those circumstances?

 

he is now a serial cheater (not the first time his done this).

 

This site would disagree with your interpretation of a serial cheater.  Specifically in how they don't seem to show remorse for their actions, but try to justify it.

[wowbagger]

I agree with jenafan and everyone who says that the timing of Leonard's confession is highly significant.

 

I'm afraid I don't give Leonard points for confessing. My stance on the matter (and I emphasise that this is my stance) is: you engaged in proto-sexual activity with someone who is not your partner, with no evidence that your partner was okay with your doing so. You stopped it. Well and good. You haven't had sex with this woman or risked bringing complications such as STDs or children with another woman as a result of your activity. Well and good. We also have no indication that this is a friend of yours, or of Penny's, or that in any way this is going to come out and hurt Penny- except by your telling her. Well and good. So why are you telling her? Because you feel so guilty? You should. You cheated on your partner. You stopped it before it went very far, but you did still cheat. It was only once (that we know of), but you did still cheat. And you feel terrible. Great- your punishment is to live with the guilt. How does it help to confess, to shrive yourself, to give your partner pain? Are you looking for absolution? 

 

Or- and this is interesting- is this your way of stalling the wedding? Did your conscience surface at this exact moment precisely so as to allow you to delay the wedding while you work through whatever other worries you may have?

 

For the record, I believe that Leonard and Penny will work it out. And I am interested that the writers shied away from the route of demonising Penny (not that I would have hated her for having doubts, but some might). But I believe that Leonard and Penny have some talking to do. And I think that Penny has once again displayed that she is an acute judge of personality by asking Leonard why he chose his moment to confess, rather than why he cheated. I think she knows he loves her, and she loves him. But I think, too, that she wants him to do some thinking about the concerns she raised in the episode about the relationship quiz.

[jenafan]

I wouldn't say it's constant. And the jealous stuff stopped in season 6.

Maybe not over other men, but now over how much money she makes, it seemed to me.

[jenafan]

So he should've kept a secret that she might have a problem with from her instead of laying it bear before they get married? Should he have done it sooner, yes. But get married and not tell her? I draw the line there.

Always bickering? I don't agree with that at all. :

While I can see your viewpoint, it is not always advantageous to reveal all. If Leoanard were going to confess, he should have done it two years ago. Because it was just a kiss and nothing more with no consequences resulting, and Leonard has not allowed it to happen again, there was no benefit to him confessing now. I don't think the kiss is what is bothering her as much as him waiting until now when they are on the verge of this big step to tell her. It would have been better had he kept this one to himself.

I am not advocating keeping secrets. I am just saying in this situation, discretion on Leonard's part was in order because it was so long ago before they even decided to take this journey together.

Regarding the bickering, I concede that I may be over-exaggerating here. You are right, they enjoy picking on one another.

I want Lenny together. It is just difficult for me to get behind them and cheer sometimes.

[Mislav]

I don't know but I think the writers are doing a number on Lenny to make the shamy look better so that they can concentrate on them

Why would that be necessary? Why not just write all couples as functioning and honest ones with minor conflicts along the way? I don't think that is the reason.

Just like they have turned Leonard into a bad guy this season to make Sheldon the good guy. Reverse roles me think.

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Neither Sheldon or Leonard are bad guys and they never were in my opinion. Edited May 11, 2015 by Mislav

[Guest]

It would be nice if they wrote all the couples equally but in my opinion season 8 has been all one sided good for shamy bad for lenny