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804 The Hook-Up Reverberation (October 6)

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Just watched that part again. The comment about acne and contraception? I'd say she was a fish out of water. A waste of the dermatologists time.

So, you're ignoring the fact that she describes Femevra's composition correctly, and explained why it is better: "So, Femevra triphasic design provides balanced hormonal exposure."

Triphasics (and biphasics) were developed in the 80s, to reduce the amount of hormones in the body, (the amount of hormones and even estrogen varies throughout the month) balancing the hormonal distribution throughout the body. Sounds to me as if she got that right.

Then she goes on to explain that that it has been shown that it has fewer side effects: "It is also been show to cause significantly few side effects than other oral contraceptives."

Triphasics, because they do reduce the amount of hormones and estrogen in the pills, do balance the hormones in the body, reducing the number and amount of side effects.

I find it instructive that you ignore all the details about the drug she got right, while explaining about Femevra, but concentrate on the failed joke (which Emily wasn't paying attention to anyway). If she was a fish out of water in anything, it was telling jokes, but she nailed the description of the drug she was explaining.

Of course it was a waste of a dermatologists time, unless she was going to determine that someone's acne was the result of taking the drug. All Penny was supposed to be doing is practicing her sales pitch, it has nothing to do with what specialty she had.

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@djsurrey; You're ignoring the fact that Emily was being rude to Penny right from the start, before she even started her pitch and definitely before she made the joke. And as Tensor points out, she did a good job describing the drug.

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I think Emily's attitude would make anyone nervous, and thus inclined to make a joke.  Penny kept her cool really well.

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So, you're ignoring the fact that she describes Femevra's composition correctly, and explained why it is better: "So, Femevra triphasic design provides balanced hormonal exposure."

Triphasics (and biphasics) were developed in the 80s, to reduce the amount of hormones in the body, (the amount of hormones and even estrogen varies throughout the month) balancing the hormonal distribution throughout the body. Sounds to me as if she got that right.

Then she goes on to explain that that it has been shown that it has fewer side effects: "It is also been show to cause significantly few side effects than other oral contraceptives."

Triphasics, because they do reduce the amount of hormones and estrogen in the pills, do balance the hormones in the body, reducing the number and amount of side effects.

I find it instructive that you ignore all the details about the drug she got right, while explaining about Femevra, but concentrate on the failed joke (which Emily wasn't paying attention to anyway). If she was a fish out of water in anything, it was telling jokes, but she nailed the description of the drug she was explaining.

Of course it was a waste of a dermatologists time, unless she was going to determine that someone's acne was the result of taking the drug. All Penny was supposed to be doing is practicing her sales pitch, it has nothing to do with what specialty she had.

 

The issue is not going to be if she can or cannot memorize a few lines off a product brief. Could she, if given a chance, have an intelligent conversation about the drugs. All that Penny said in that segment could have as easily been printed on the packaging of a sample. My point was she does not have the education that would be required to answer questions or engage in a conversation.

 

If penny was to practice on a dermatologist why present on a contraceptive? I would think picking appropriate drugs to present would be one of the things to practice. This is the sort of thing that takes a breadth of knowledge. One would have to start with a conversation about what samples the doctor might be needing or something along those lines.

 

I'm not in medicine but I do interact with technical sales reps. Conversations are always centered on what I need and not on their latest hot product. Emily said she was busy. People are always busy. So what was Penny doing? 

 

She wanted to practice on a doctor but what is the point of practicing on a doctor if she is ignoring the specialty? The pitch she gave could have been practiced on Bernadette.

Edited by djsurrey

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@DJ, you may be right. Lets see what kind of a fist she makes of it. People fake competence all the time (looks around nervously). Some get away with it because they are good looking and personable, some because they are able to grow into the role and others because they are sociopaths and don't care. If she is no good and feels it will not be enjoyable for her to persist, her misery from cognitive dissonance should take her elsewhere. This opportunity fell into her lap. I'm sure they can devise other opportunities if needs be.

Aside: Does anybody care that Raj is in for a tough time?

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The issue is not going to be if she can or cannot memorize a few lines off a product brief.

 

Funny, I thought the issue was why Emily didn't like Penny. You claimed it was because she was an incompetent sales rep. Emily clearly disliked her before she knew Penny was a sales rep, and even explicitly stated that she didn't like her because of the hook-up and that she was pretty. You're just shifting the goalposts.

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Funny, I thought the issue was why Emily didn't like Penny. You claimed it was because she was an incompetent sales rep. Emily clearly disliked her before she knew Penny was a sales rep, and even explicitly stated that she didn't like her because of the hook-up and that she was pretty. You're just shifting the goalposts.

And all of you seem to skip DJ's point she has no knowledge to fall back on when she has to actually participate in a conversation.

If you don't understand the product you're selling down to all the details, you will never make a sale.

How is she gonna sell things to ppl who dislike salespersons in general, as they feel they are waisting their time?

Smile? Flirt? Laugh at her own jokes?

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If you go back and read post 205 in this thread, the one that set this particular discussion in motion, you'll find that djsurrey put forth the argument that Emily possibly didn't like Penny because she was an incompetent sales rep. Whether she actually is or not is not the point. As I said, Emily didn't like Penny before she knew a thing about her other than the fact that she and Raj had "hooked up" and that she was pretty, and even stated that was the reason. That is the point.

Edited by gsxdoug

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When they first met, she greeted Leonard warmly then shot visual daggers at Penny. The purpose of Penny going to Emily's office was to practice on an actual doctor. Practice. With a new friend. If Emily was too busy, she should have opted out. Penny was doomed from the start.

Sent from my iPhone using

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I don't think we need to search around for reasons for Emily's initial coldness. She told Penny. I don't think she lied. The hook-up, the fact they were still friends & that Emily found her threateningly pretty. She was honest about it. After the sales pitch and the heart to heart with Raj , then we can start adding layers to her distaste (and Penny's).

The sales pitch was a good start but appeared memorized, which it would her first time out. That's totally understandable for a new sales rep. That's why a trial run was a good idea. A BC pill that cured acne would have been a better product, I am not sure what noxious chemical has to go in a triphasial to cause acne... Nevermind, it is bernie's lab... Acne is probably the best case scenario, along with rectal bleeding.

This episode felt low energy. Even the scenes with supposed high emotion, didn't expend too much effort because the stakes were so low.

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When they first met, she greeted Leonard warmly then shot visual daggers at Penny. The purpose of Penny going to Emily's office was to practice on an actual doctor. Practice. With a new friend. If Emily was too busy, she should have opted out. Penny was doomed from the start.

Sent from my iPhone using

Tapatalk

 

ITA she was. I want Raj to have a girlfriend but so far I'm not a Emily fan. 

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The issue is not going to be if she can or cannot memorize a few lines off a product brief. Could she, if given a chance, have an intelligent conversation about the drugs. All that Penny said in that segment could have as easily been printed on the packaging of a sample.

And she could have just as easily, if given a chance, had an intelligent conversation.

 

My point was she does not have the education that would be required to answer questions or engage in a conversation.

She is, and has been in training for this from the company. And, as you state below, you aren't in medicine, how exactly did you determine what education was required, or that her training won't provide that education.

 

If penny was to practice on a dermatologist why present on a contraceptive? I would think picking appropriate drugs to present would be one of the things to practice. This is the sort of thing that takes a breadth of knowledge. One would have to start with a conversation about what samples the doctor might be needing or something along those lines.

It's what she's been given to use in her training class?

 

I'm not in medicine but I do interact with technical sales reps. Conversations are always centered on what I need and not on their latest hot product. Emily said she was busy. People are always busy. So what was Penny doing?

So, your expertise in pharmaceutical sales is...zero, which makes your comparison with technical sales people, basically useless. My experience in pharmaceutical SALES, is zero, which is why I'm wondering exactly how you know the experience and training required as a pharmaceutical sales rep.

 

She wanted to practice on a doctor but what is the point of practicing on a doctor if she is ignoring the specialty? The pitch she gave could have been practiced on Bernadette.

If you remember, Bernadette is the one that suggested it, and Emily agreed. I still don't see how you get to Emily didn't like her because she's an incompetent sales rep.

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And all of you seem to skip DJ's point she has no knowledge to fall back on when she has to actually participate in a conversation.

All he's presented so far is that he doesn't believe it. Not to mention he's ignored the fact that she is receiving training form the company. Are your agreeing with DJ that her training can't correct that? And if you are, why?

 

If you don't understand the product you're selling down to all the details, you will never make a sale.

Could that be why her company is having her go through a training class?

 

How is she gonna sell things to ppl who dislike salespersons in general, as they feel they are waisting their time?

Smile? Flirt? Laugh at her own jokes?

How does anyone make a sale to someone who dislikes salespersons? For instance, how does anyone make a sale to my wife's doctor? If a rep makes it into his office, he tells them to leave.

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Aside: Does anybody care that Raj is in for a tough time?

If Raj is in for a tough time then he has no one to blame but his self absorbed self. So to answer your question...I would enjoy watching it  immensely. In life a person usually ends up getting what he or she deserves. I just hope the writers feel the same way.

Just watched that part again. The comment about acne and contraception? I'd say she was a fish out of water. A waste of the dermatologists time.

I'm getting the distinct impression that you would be one unhappy viewer if the writers end up having Penny become an extremely successful sales rep. Personally I hope they do. She deserves some success in her professional career. Then after a successful stint as a sales rep she can become a successful actress too before it is all said and done. 

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I'm getting the distinct impression that you would be one unhappy viewer if the writers end up having Penny become an extremely successful sales rep. Personally I hope they do. She deserves some success in her professional career. Then after a successful stint as a sales rep she can become a successful actress too before it is all said and done. 

I mostly go with the flow the writers lay out. No really I was just making an observation based on my limited experience. I have seen a lot of prejudice based on education. I have probably had some myself.

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And she could have just as easily, if given a chance, had an intelligent conversation.

 

Like she did with Professor Proton?

 

She is, and has been in training for this from the company. And, as you state below, you aren't in medicine, how exactly did you determine what education was required, or that her training won't provide that education.

 

This is not a rigorous proof. I know that engineers are more open to others who have an engineering background. It does not seem to be a stretch to think a doctor would rather be talking to someone who has at last one degree when it comes to pharmaceutical reps.

 

It's what she's been given to use in her training class?

 

The training provided would be about specifics of the drugs they are providing. Sounds necessary but I have my doubts that it would be sufficient. Hardly a substitute for a pharmaceutical or science degree.

 

So, your expertise in pharmaceutical sales is...zero, which makes your comparison with technical sales people, basically useless. My experience in pharmaceutical SALES, is zero, which is why I'm wondering exactly how you know the experience and training required as a pharmaceutical sales rep.

 

If I thought it was useless I would not have said anything. I don't imagine in general doctors react to pharmaceutical reps much differently than engineers respond to technical sales reps.

 

If you remember, Bernadette is the one that suggested it, and Emily agreed. I still don't see how you get to Emily didn't like her because she's an incompetent sales rep.

I know how I feel when a rep wants to take up my time. I know how I feel when I talk to some company rep who does not seem to know what they are talking about. I have heard comments from others as well. On the other hand I don't really think a three year old hook up is any reason to prejudge someone. Edited by djsurrey

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Like she did with Professor Proton?

I don't remember her getting any specific training in physics, can you point out the relevant training, she received, that would have allowed her to discuss physics with Proton?

 

This is not a rigorous proof. I know that engineers are more open to others who have an engineering background. It does not seem to be a stretch to think a doctor would rather be talking to someone who has at last one degree when it comes to pharmaceutical reps.

If the rep demonstrates a knowledge of the drugs they are trying to sell, why exactly would a doctor ask about what degree someone has?

 

The training provided would be about specifics of the drugs they are providing. Sounds necessary but I have my doubts that it would be sufficient. Hardly a substitute for a pharmaceutical or science degree.

So, you're whole basis for rejecting it is, You can't believe it.

 

If I thought it was useless I would not have said anything. I don't imagine in general doctors react to pharmaceutical reps much differently than engineers respond to technical sales reps.

I didn't say you thought it was useless. I simply stated it was useless, as you stated you don't have experience in pharmaceuticals. So you can't make a valid comparison.

 

I know how I feel when a rep wants to take up my time. I know how I feel when I talk to some company rep does not seem to know what they are talking about.

Well, when are you going to show that Penny doesn't seem to know what she is talking about? So far, we have one example, and in that she seemed to show she knew was she was talking about.

 

I have hear comments from others as well.

You mean like the comments from others who thought she would never get an acting job?

 

On the other hand I don't really think a three year old hook up is any reason to prejudge someone.

I'm interested on your explanation as to why we should accept your feeling that a three year old hook-up shouldn't prejudice someone, when the character was cold toward Penny and specifically stated that the hook-up was the problem?

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I don't remember her getting any specific training in physics, can you point out the relevant training, she received, that would have allowed her to discuss physics with Proton?

 

:) Proton's presentation was at a kids level.

 

If the rep demonstrates a knowledge of the drugs they are trying to sell, why exactly would a doctor ask about what degree someone has?

I think we have done this to death already. The doctor would not have to ask about the educational grounding. One can't really hide a lack of understanding in a reasonable conversation.

 

So, you're whole basis for rejecting it is, You can't believe it.

 

Yah sure. I never said I could prove that premise is wrong. It just does not seem enough to me. I'm only talking about what I find plausible. But as I said from my point of view the episode was quite funny.

 

I didn't say you thought it was useless. I simply stated it was useless, as you stated you don't have experience in pharmaceuticals. So you can't make a valid comparison.

 

It is part of the human condition to have incomplete information.I'm projecting my experience into a situation I have not experienced.

 

Well, when are you going to show that Penny doesn't seem to know what she is talking about? So far, we have one example, and in that she seemed to show she knew was she was talking about.

 

Odd, it sounded to me like she was regurgitating something she had memorized. That is nothing like knowing what you are talking about.

 

You mean like the comments from others who thought she would never get an acting job?

 No. I was not talking about Penny at that point.

 

I'm interested on your explanation as to why we should accept your feeling that a three year old hook-up shouldn't prejudice someone, when the character was cold toward Penny and specifically stated that the hook-up was the problem?

Do or don't accept it. I'm not saying you "should". I was expressing my point of view. I found the episode funny and I thought perhaps the majority here missed a deeper and more subtle reason that Emily had such a strong reaction to Penny. I have heard here a fairly negative reaction to Emily hating Penny for what appeared to be a weak reason. I have suggested that perhaps there is more under the surface than Emily stated. That is why I suggested it was just the tip of the iceberg. It seems reasonable enough that Emily would only state part of the issue to someone she "hates"

Edited by djsurrey

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Do or don't accept it. I'm not saying you "should". I was expressing my point of view. I found the episode funny and I thought perhaps the majority here missed a deeper and more subtle reason that Emily had such a strong reaction to Penny. I have heard here a fairly negative reaction to Emily hating Penny for what appeared to be a weak reason. I have suggested that perhaps there is more under the surface than Emily stated. That is why I suggested it was just the tip of the iceberg. It seems reasonable enough that Emily would only state part of the issue to someone she "hates"

Except there is zero evidence for this; ziltch, zip, nada. We have to go by what is given us and it was stated explicitly that Emily hated Penny because she hooked up with Raj and she was very pretty, not for any other reason.

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:) Proton's presentation was at a kids level. 

My wife currently works in a pretty technical field, but don't ask her about physics, she has no clue, even at a kids level.

The doctor would not have to ask about the educational grounding. One can't really hide a lack of understanding in a reasonable conversation. 

But that's just it, you haven't shown she has a lack of understanding, you just claim she has a lack of understanding.

 

Yah sure. I never said I could prove that premise is wrong.  It is part of the human condition to have incomplete information.I'm projecting my experience into a situation I have not experienced.

Yet you seem to somehow think your projection is right, with no supporting evidence.

  

Odd, it sounded to me like she was regurgitating something she had memorized. That is nothing like knowing what you are talking about.  

I find it odd that you would think a sales rep would not have the opening memorized. If she needed to read her opening off a card, you'd have reason for suspecting incompetence. At least she's competent enough to have her beginning memorized

I have suggested that perhaps there is more under the surface than Emily stated. That is why I suggested it was just the tip of the iceberg. It seems reasonable enough that Emily would only state part of the issue to someone she "hates"

Then why was she so cold to Penny at the apartment, before she new she was a rep?

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I think Howard needs to bring in an infinite loop breaker to stop this Penny/Emily anti friendship algorithm in its tracks. No one is gonna budge

Anyway I re watched this episode last night with my teenage kids to give it another go. I suspected my initial viewing was a little tainted by the overwhelming disappointment expressed on this forum - I should have watched before reading.

I know we probably dismiss the tastes of 16-18 year olds as opposed to our collective sharp analytical wisdom here but I found myself enjoying the episode more with the support of teenaged laughter. I still didn't rate it as a good episode compared to the great majority of the other 160+ I've watched repeatedly. But I still got some laughs out of it. Despite our recent disdain for our hilarious Hindu, I found myself ( and my daughter) laughing at a lot of Raj's lines tonight. There were some good moments in the Howard/Bernie/Stuart arc ( I'm not weirded out by that relationship- yet) and probably because I'm into it for the laughs more than the relationship I laughed at some of the Shamy stuff. Leonard was consistently Leonard.

For different reasons than the last 40 posts, I was still underwhelmed by the Emily/Penny story, mainly because I found it lacking in energy and the I hate that bitch just didn't quite match the preceding conversation, or they didn't convince me they were faking the reconciliation.

I was looking forward to the comic book store story but the dialogue throughout that just seemed flat to me, just not at the same level as many of their previous conversations in Stuart's shop over the years. The writing and delivery just seemed off. The worst part for me was the woeful tag scene. That was just a whole lotta nothing, especially compared to the energy of the previous ep when they were testing each other's knowledge out. No energy in this one and boring dialogue.

But still not as bad an episode as I originally thought. Sometimes we spend so much time looking for faults we miss some good stuff. My thoughts anyway.

Anyway, back to the Emily/Penny reason for the hate fight, if you guys still have the energy.

Looking forward to next two episodes

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My wife currently works in a pretty technical field, but don't ask her about physics, she has no clue, even at a kids level.

I don't know what a pretty technical field really means.

What would a student wanting to get into pharmaceutical sales take?

from http://education-portal.com/pharmaceutical_sales.html

Curricula

Bachelor's degree programs in the pharmaceutical sciences provide students with a foundational understanding of all relevant health science topics, including anatomy, physiology, chemistry, biology, physics, toxicology and immunology. Students also take courses in pharmaceutical writing, business communications and research analysis. Some programs also include professional education classes, which provide students with information about various pharmaceutical sales career options.

 

But that's just it, you haven't shown she has a lack of understanding, you just claim she has a lack of understanding.

We have had seven seasons of Penny demonstrating she has no science foundation. The first Proton episode perhaps even overstated it.

 

Yet you seem to somehow think your projection is right, with no supporting evidence.

I will quote again from the same source as above.

 

Educational Requirements

While sales representatives do not typically need a college education to obtain employment, the highly scientific nature of pharmaceutical sales requires an in-depth understanding of complex health sciences like biotechnology, pharmacology and epidemiology. Therefore, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics recommends that aspiring pharmaceutical sales representatives possess a bachelor's degree in an area related to pharmaceutical studies (www.bls.gov). Many pharmaceutical sales classified postings on popular online job boards, such as Monster.com, also specify that a bachelor's degree is required for applicants to entry-level positions.

 

I recall Penny's remarks in Leonard's lab

    "high techy techy".

 

You think a course from the pharmaceutical company is going to give Penny an "in-depth understanding of complex health sciences like biotechnology". I don't think that is plausible.

 

I find it odd that you would think a sales rep would not have the opening memorized. If she needed to read her opening off a card, you'd have reason for suspecting incompetence. At least she's competent enough to have her beginning memorized

I think some memorization would be important but you really are missing the point. In a one on one situation one needs to think on their feet and have a conversation far more than make a presentation. One would need to be able to tailor what is presented to the specific needs of who you are talking to.

Then why was she so cold to Penny at the apartment, before she new she was a rep?

Interesting point.I did not find her so cold at the apartment. She was less enthusiastic than when she said hello to Leonard. We did not hear the word hate until after the talk at Emilie's office. That was after Penny had said they had not hooked up and then on more questioning admitted they had. Also in the office Penny failed to ask any relevant questions about what Emily needed pharmaceutically as a dermatologist. I think it quit fair to believe Emily would think that Penny was just waisting her time. I can't prove she believed that but it seems plausible to me.

Except there is zero evidence for this; ziltch, zip, nada. We have to go by what is given us and it was stated explicitly that Emily hated Penny because she hooked up with Raj and she was very pretty, not for any other reason.

I think Emily stated she had a problem with Penny because of the hook-up. It was only after meeting Penny three times that Emily actually said she hated Penny.

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I was looking forward to the comic book store story but the dialogue throughout that just seemed flat to me, just not at the same level as many of their previous conversations in Stuart's shop over the years. The writing and delivery just seemed off. The worst part for me was the woeful tag scene. That was just a whole lotta nothing, especially compared to the energy of the previous ep when they were testing each other's knowledge out. No energy in this one and boring dialogue.

 

I think the tag scene was supposed to be the irony of the guys lamenting loosing out on owning a comic store where they could peacefully read their comic books, while they were peacefully reading their comic books in the apartment - I think it would be more that they would have a place to enjoy their comic books peacefully without having to hear their partners saying how childish they are :wink: - I hope they do get to own the comic book store some day.

Edited by luke

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