Episodes 807 The Misinterpretation Agitation (October 30)

[Chrismo]

Just saw the episode when the girls went to the comic book store when the guys went to the convention. Amy didn't have a problem with the guys gawking at her. As a matter a fact she welcomed it. Ironically while they were having drinks at the bar  wasn't Amy staring at Bernadette's boobs. The real story was Amy was jealous that it wasn't her in the magazine.

[Martin Pollard]

I don't understand how someone else's opinion is "wrong". Doesn't that defeat the purpose of an opinion?

 

Anyways, I don't think Amy was wrong. She wasn't just angry that Bernadette was doing it; she was angry because women in science, as a whole, have enough trouble being taken seriously and this was exploiting them. Again, not only Bernie but the other 49 women as well.

 

She also did not tell them "you can't do that". She pointed out how she felt and they agreed with her. Sorry you all didn't get to see Bernie in little to nothing. Bummer.

 

So because Amy was of the opinion that the article was exploitative (which I do agree with), she was perfectly justified in interfering with the choice of a rational adult (Bernadette). Let me know how that goes for you the next time you decide to do something and someone else goes behind your back to interfere. I suspect you wouldn't be so quick to shrug it off with "the ends justify the means"-style rationalization.

 

And really, we're upset that we "didn't get to see Bernie in little to nothing"? I won't dignify such obnoxious bullshit with an answer.

[Chrismo]

Right, all opinions are equal, like someone's opinion that the Earth is flat. Thanks for enlightening me.

Although some opinions are more biased than others. Seems all the Shamy fans are taking Amy side. Surprise. Surprise.

[denajeanx]

So because Amy was of the opinion that the article was exploitative (which I do agree with), she was perfectly justified in interfering with the choice of a rational adult (Bernadette). Let me know how that goes for you the next time you decide to do something and someone else goes behind your back to interfere. I suspect you wouldn't be so quick to shrug it off with "the ends justify the means"-style rationalization.

 

And really, we're upset that we "didn't get to see Bernie in little to nothing"? I won't dignify such obnoxious bullshit with an answer.

 

Apparently, I must've hit a nerve there.

 

I believe in standing up for what you believe in, and Amy did just that. All the hard work she (and all other female scientists) have done to get to where they are and this magazine was going to turn it into Maxim. Sorry, I am with Amy on this. I would never sit down silently and watch my career field be presented in such a manner.

 

Let's also note that Bernie admitted that Amy was right.

[Tensor]

Ya know, I don't see anyone, who is defending Amy, complaining about the exploitation of Neil deGrasse Tyson on the vanity card at the end of the show.

[Chrismo]

Apparently, I must've hit a nerve there.

 

I believe in standing up for what you believe in, and Amy did just that. All the hard work she (and all other female scientists) have done to get to where they are and this magazine was going to turn it into Maxim. Sorry, I am with Amy on this. I would never sit down silently and watch my career field be presented in such a manner.

 

Let's also note that Bernie admitted that Amy was right.

Apparently a lot of nerves been hit. I always thought bad publicity was better than no publicity. I better tell my 13 year old daughter she's too pretty to be a scientist. May be she can be a waitress.

[IAteAButterfly]

I guess it's different when you acknowledge the fact that women haven't been respected in the STEM fields for that long and still have a ways to go.

But by all means, all aboard the patriarchy train. First stop, overly defensive...

[Chrismo]

 Sorry you all didn't get to see Bernie in little to nothing. Bummer.

Didn't hear people on here saying that they wanted to see Bernadette in next to nothing. Did I miss some post that they wanted to see that?

[Chiany]

Ya know, I don't see anyone, who is defending Amy, complaining about the exploitation of Neil deGrasse Tyson on the vanity card at the end of the show.

 

Two completely different things.

 

Amy knew before hand about the photoshoot, none of us knew before hand about that Vanity Card.

If Amy had known about that VC, she would have objected just the same (Well, if Amy had been a real person).

 

And even if we/she had written an e-mail about it to Chuck, maybe he (unlike the magazine) didn't agree and post it anyway.

[denajeanx]

Didn't hear people on here saying that they wanted to see Bernadette in next to nothing. Did I miss some post that they wanted to see that?

 

Well, that's why Amy is such a horrible person right?

 

 

Two completely different things.

 

Amy knew before hand about the photoshoot, none of us knew before hand about that Vanity Card.

If Amy had known about that VC, she would have objected just the same (Well, if Amy had been a real person).

 

And even if we/she had written an e-mail about it to Chuck, maybe he (unlike the magazine) didn't agree and post it anyway.

 

Yes. Can we also mention the fact that it wasn't actually him? Yeah, his face ridiculously photoshopped onto some guys abs... that's the same thing. Lol.

Edited October 31, 2014 by denajeanx

[Chaliceinnana]

If Big Bang Theory wanted to go into the difficulties face by women in the STEM fields, they could. Amy and Bernadette are young women who could tell that story. Since they went this odd way, I don't think they really want to. I think they just wanted the girls to have a spat. Then they didn't resolve it.

 

The other possibility about why the article was cancelled is that the other 49 scientists the magazine approached agreed with Amy.

[Tripper]

Quotes from the episode are now up on the site: http://the-big-bang-theory.com/quotes/episode/807/The-Misinterpretation-Agitation/

[Chrismo]

If Big Bang Theory wanted to go into the difficulties face by women in the STEM fields, they could. Amy and Bernadette are young women who could tell that story. Since they went this odd way, I don't think they really want to. I think they just wanted the girls to have a spat. Then they didn't resolve it.

 

The other possibility about why the article was cancelled is that the other 49 scientists the magazine approached agreed with Amy.

Actually I think they did resolve the dispute, in a way. Bernadette was going to apologize but Amy forgot about being insulted when she got hit on by the Doctor. I think Amy would like to think that the article got cancelled by her but who knows. You may be right about the other 49 scientists but I'm guessing you will never get a definitive answer on why it was.

[djsurrey]

"STEM fields" is very broad.

These issues are a priority at many levels:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/ostp/women

[Tensor]

Two completely different things.

No it's not. Exploration is exploitation.

 

Amy knew before hand about the photoshoot, none of us knew before hand about that Vanity Card.

So, if you don't know about the exploitation, it's perfectly acceptable to ignore it when you find out about it, but complain about the other exploitation you knew about?

If Amy had known about that VC, she would have objected just the same (Well, if Amy had been a real person).

I'm not talking about Amy, I'm talking about the people here. Those people defend Amy for writing in because she objects to the exploitation of female scientists, yet when presented with an actual example of the same type of exploitation, say nothing.

 

And even if we/she had written an e-mail about it to Chuck, maybe he (unlike the magazine) didn't agree and post it anyway.

Well I'm talking about the double standard here. But, let's look at this comment. Are you saying you should only complain if you know the entity is going to actually do something? By this reasoning, Amy shouldn't have written, because maybe the magazine doesn't agree with her.

[phantagrae]

I don't think that Amy interfered with Bernadette's decision.  As far as Bernie doing the shoot was concerned, Amy voiced her opinion on why she shouldn't do it.  She didn't hold Bernie down and pervent her from going through with it.

I do think that Amy's letter to the editor of the magazine was also valid--and she didn't do it to prevent Bernie from doing the shoot, but to prevent the magazine from doing the shoot.

 

If the article had been about the 50 most high-acheiving women in science or maybe even the 50 highest-paid women in science, that would be different.  That would be showcasing women who had done well in science regardless of their looks.  If Bernie had been chosen to do that, then the fact that she's got two big "Hadron colliders" would have been beside the point.  Some of the other women in such a shoot might have been super sexy and others might have been less so.  We know that Amy has had an article that made the cover of Neuron, so she might have been featured in such an article as well, no matter what one might think of her looks.

 

I think this same issue is always out there, in many fields, when people are judged by their looks and not their achievements.  Even for actors, there are always those who don't care whether or not a person can act, as long as they're good-looking.

I mean, I think the controversy over Kaley's haircut is proof of that.  How many people suddenly said she was no longer the "hot blonde" because her hair is short?  That the Penny character was now ruined because they thought Kaley was no longer good looking?  That's why I keep asking, "Was it her hair that was acting?"  I mean, did her boobs suddenly disappear?, did she grow warts on her face or something?

Whether or not she was hired because she looked like the "hot blonde neighbor" (yes, if the character is supposed to be good looking to other characters, then they need someone who is good-looking, male or female), she still had to be able to act.

 

I think Kaley has more talent than she is given credit for because people are concentrating on her looks--which is exactly the point being made with the issue of the magazine shoot.

Would anyone care whether Bernie, or any of the other women, was a GOOD scientist, as long as they can see her sexy body?  If she's got big boob that someone can ogle, who cares what her scientific achievements might be, right?

 

Just recently there was some controversy over a Victoria's Secret ad that had all the VS "angels" lined up, wearing underwear, and it had wording across it saying, "The Perfect Body".  Though VS claimed it meant the perfect "body" of styles of underwear, as in the perfect fashion line, it certainly seemed as if they were making a statement about what the "perfect body" looks like.  So people protested the ad.

 

That's essentially what Amy did.

If she hadn't known any of the women who were going to do the photo shoot, if she'd heard about it in some other way and Bernie were not involved, her protest to the magazine would have been just as valid.

If she'd seen the photo shoot after the fact, and she protested to the magazine, her point would have been just as valid, again, whether or not Bernie were involved.

 

Everyone wants to be thought of as being attractive or beautiful or whatever.  I think most of us know where we fall on society's general scale of beauty and maybe some struggle with how they compare to what is generally considered "beautiful" or "sexy".

 

But whether or not you consider yourself beautiful or sexy, don't you have other attributes that are just as or more important than how you look?

I think that most of us have felt that we've been judged based only on our looks, and it's kind of demeaning to think that society values those who are "sexy" over those who are talented, whatever their field.

 

As for Bernie, I think she was flattered to have been chosen, but she doesn't normally rely on her body for such things.  She did think it was good publicity for her work, but she might even have been kind of rationalizing the idea to herself in order to skip over the exploitation issue.  Once Amy pointed it out, she had second thoughts about it, and then she was kind of saved from having to make that hard decision because the photo shoot was cancelled.

Whatever role Amy's letter may have played in getting it cancelled, I think she saved Bernie from making what could have been a costly decision.  How would Bernie's employer have taken it?

Ironically, I just saw the headline of some article about some cops (I think it was) getting fired or reprimanded or something for participating in something similar.  I didn't get to read the article, but that sort of things is pretty common.

 

I remember years ago there was a woman--Naomi Weinstein(?) maybe??--who protested some kind of similar exploitation and a lot of people, including some women, said very cruel things about her and her looks.  "Oh, she must be jealous because she's not good-looking like us."

 

I don't think that Bernie really meant to be cruel.  I think she just spoke without thinking because she had a flash of anger, possibly tinged with a bit of shame over having wanted to do the shoot.

What's important is that she realized her error and came to find Amy in order to apologize.

[Irene]

I agree, Phanta. I think Bernie said something rash in a moment of hurt and anger--and to her credit she immediately realized it and apologized. Very different than her saying it in a moment of calm and not apologizing.

[Disgusted]

Right, all opinions are equal, like someone's opinion that the Earth is flat. Thanks for enlightening me.

 

Well, if you want to have a deep philosophical discussion, you'll first have to prove to us that you exist.

[Chrismo]

I don't think that Amy interfered with Bernadette's decision.  As far as Bernie doing the shoot was concerned, Amy voiced her opinion on why she shouldn't do it.  She didn't hold Bernie down and pervent her from going through with it.

I do think that Amy's letter to the editor of the magazine was also valid--and she didn't do it to prevent Bernie from doing the shoot, but to prevent the magazine from doing the shoot.

 

 

 

 

I think some peoples objections are that Amy wasn't upfront enough to tell Bernadette she was writing the letter to the editor. I don't think people thought she shouldn't do it. It seems some gave Amy a free pass on that and chose to react just to Bernadette's response.

[tmp]

I didn't see the NDT pic on the vanity card--and for that I am extremely thankful!  

 

Have you guys noticed how close Amy and Bernie seem to be?  Since 7.01, they're shown hanging out just the two of them fairy often.  They were at the conference together, they went out by themselves when Penny and Sheldon were getting on their nerves, they made the Star Wars cake together, they had fun in Vegas without Penny, and last night they were having wine just the two of them.  Bernie may have replaced Penny as Amy's new bestie.

[BazingaFan]

What a strange episode.  I didn't like the guest star (who the heck was he anyway).  He was creepy instead of funny and the jokes with him were the same over and over.

 

Is it in Amy's character to touch him while going up the stairs?  No, in my opinion.

 

The storyline with Bernie and Amy was contrived to establish Amy's point about female scientists.  Message received.  The problem, though, is it was out of her character. Where is the Amy that tells Penny she needs to wear a lower-cut dress and go out and seduce men?  I'm so tired of Amy's character being a hodge-podge of whatever fits the storyline at the time. I can't even recognize her anymore (there are so many contradictions).

 

Why wasn't the issue resolved between Bernie and Amy?  What was the point of it all?  When the episode was over, I was left saying, huh?

 

It was a letdown for me.

[denajeanx]

If I ever really do see Neil Degrasse Tyson (or any other male scientist) sexualized because of their careers, I'll have an objection. The vanity card argument is laughable, at best. I actually can't even take it seriously.

[djsurrey]

I don't think that Amy interfered with Bernadette's decision.  As far as Bernie doing the shoot was concerned, Amy voiced her opinion on why she shouldn't do it.  She didn't hold Bernie down and pervent her from going through with it.

I do think that Amy's letter to the editor of the magazine was also valid--and she didn't do it to prevent Bernie from doing the shoot, but to prevent the magazine from doing the shoot.

 

[snip]

 

I don't think that Bernie really meant to be cruel.  I think she just spoke without thinking because she had a flash of anger, possibly tinged with a bit of shame over having wanted to do the shoot.

What's important is that she realized her error and came to find Amy in order to apologize.

 

I thought it was interesting that this exchange got into an episode given Mayim's interest in promoting STEM education.

There are world wide issues not only about problems women face in STEM fields but also declines in enrollment in STEM courses and programs in general.

 

from page 12 of http://blogs.helsinki.fi/sosrepforum/files/2007/10/ocde1.pdf

 

Several reasons have been put forward to explain such a decline of interest in scientific studies. At the

educational level, possible explanations include the lack of interest in science teaching, perceived

difficulty of science courses, and traditional orientation of girls and of some ethnic minorities towards

non-scientific curricula. Career aspects are also important as scientific careers both in public and

private sectors may be perceived as less rewarding than finance or management for a similar

investment. Finally, a general concern about negative public perception of science has emerged as

distrust of science may influence education choices.

Faced with convergent studies, a number of countries have realised the importance of the problem and

started to address it through policy recommendations and a variety of measures. Such initiatives are,

however, often still in their infancy and little evaluation of their impact has been carried out.

[phantagrae]

I didn't see the NDT pic on the vanity card--and for that I am extremely thankful!  

 

Have you guys noticed how close Amy and Bernie seem to be?  Since 7.01, they're shown hanging out just the two of them fairy often.  They were at the conference together, they went out by themselves when Penny and Sheldon were getting on their nerves, they made the Star Wars cake together, they had fun in Vegas without Penny, and last night they were having wine just the two of them.  Bernie may have replaced Penny as Amy's new bestie.

 

I don't think that Bernie has replaced Penny as Amy's bestie.  I think it's a couple of things--logic and storyline.

Going to conferences together makes sense since they're both in science and Penny would have no reason to go.

They went out without Penny and Sheldon precisely because P&S were irritating them.  I don't think they had to be best friends to do that.  It was better than each of them going out alone.

They made the cake together because Penny went to the funeral with Leonard (and she can't really cook, so...)

They partied in Vegas together because Penny was working on her sales stuff.  They wanted to go out rather than sit around the hotel room.

 

So I think it's a combination of the fact that B&A have certain things in common that they don't share with Penny, and then the fact that they're friendly enough to be able to spend time together without having to have Penny there as a go-between or catalyst.

 

I think maybe Amy isn't quite as enamored with Penny as she once was, but Amy is no longer the sad little outsider worshiping the beautiful girl who befriended her.

[tmp]

I don't think that Bernie has replaced Penny as Amy's bestie.  I think it's a couple of things--logic and storyline.

Going to conferences together makes sense since they're both in science and Penny would have no reason to go.

They went out without Penny and Sheldon precisely because P&S were irritating them.  I don't think they had to be best friends to do that.  It was better than each of them going out alone.

They made the cake together because Penny went to the funeral with Leonard (and she can't really cook, so...)

They partied in Vegas together because Penny was working on her sales stuff.  They wanted to go out rather than sit around the hotel room.

 

So I think it's a combination of the fact that B&A have certain things in common that they don't share with Penny, and then the fact that they're friendly enough to be able to spend time together without having to have Penny there as a go-between or catalyst.

 

I think maybe Amy isn't quite as enamored with Penny as she once was, but Amy is no longer the sad little outsider worshiping the beautiful girl who befriended her.

 

I meant it tongue-in-cheek when I said Bernie was Amy's new bestie.  They've gotten a lot closer, though, which I like.  I like the girl posse dynamic much better now than when Amy had a (mostly) platonic crush on Penny.