Episodes 807 The Misinterpretation Agitation (October 30)

[phantagrae]

I meant it tongue-in-cheek when I said Bernie was Amy's new bestie.  They've gotten a lot closer, though, which I like.  I like the girl posse dynamic much better now than when Amy had a (mostly) platonic crush on Penny.  

 

OIC.

 

I do like that they're doing more mix-and-match with the character combinations.  I think it allows them to bring out other traits in the characters as they interact with each other.

Edited October 31, 2014 by phantagrae

[tallin]

Although some opinions are more biased than others. Seems all the Shamy fans are taking Amy side. Surprise. Surprise.

Sorry but I don't think it has anything to do with being Shamy, but being different people, working in different fields. That makes different opinions. For example I as teacher and future psychologist,  can't afford have any of sexy photos in magazine... what message would it send to my patients, kids, or their parents ? To see me somewhere in sexy positions, maybe even half naked ? There are fields, you have to think about your behavior, because your work goes past your workplace and people are watching you even in your personal life. You can make mistake, and no one would take you seriously anymore. Science is one of these. It's just current society, maybe in twenty years, situation will be different. And Amy didn't say they shouldn't do the photoshoot, but expressed her opinion, which creators of article agreed with... she had every right to do that. That they canceled it isn't her fault. 

[Stephen Hawking]

It's from "Metropolis" a silent German science fiction film that forecast the destruction of capitalism

 

Many years later, scored by Queen.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Stephen Hawking

[tallin]

What a strange episode.  I didn't like the guest star (who the heck was he anyway).  He was creepy instead of funny and the jokes with him were the same over and over.

 

Is it in Amy's character to touch him while going up the stairs?  No, in my opinion.

 

The storyline with Bernie and Amy was contrived to establish Amy's point about female scientists.  Message received.  The problem, though, is it was out of her character. Where is the Amy that tells Penny she needs to wear a lower-cut dress and go out and seduce men?  I'm so tired of Amy's character being a hodge-podge of whatever fits the storyline at the time. I can't even recognize her anymore (there are so many contradictions).

 

Why wasn't the issue resolved between Bernie and Amy?  What was the point of it all?  When the episode was over, I was left saying, huh?

 

It was a letdown for me.

I think they didn't resolve it intentionally. According this thread, you can see how people would react if they said Bernie was right, or Amy was right. One side would be mad and writers would have to face it. But at least some explanation would be nice you're right. I agree with you on Amy, sometimes it seems like they still are not sure, what to do with her character, I saw more of Mayim than Amy in this plot to be honest. And yes, this touching his back was kind of weird for me too. But I saw it second time and felt better about the episode. It has it's moments. Sheldon saying "these two tried to score with Penny too and they're are having dinner with us" was gold  

[LittleMoth15]

I don't know how shamy came into a debate about Amy and Bernadette. Have I missed something?

[TwinkleTwinkleTiara]

Although Amy touching the doctor thing bothers me a lot, I still love this episode because it mentions the tribbles! Tribbles are the best!

[ATM]

One thing is for sure , If Amy thought she had the looks , she certainly would have flaunted those.

[Kichi]

I agree with Hooligan. Amy had every right to send the letter and as I had said in my other post, maybe if Bernadette wasn't chosen maybe she wouldn't have sent the letter, but we don't know that. It probably would have been better if Amy told Bernadette she was going to do it any way and be more upfront about it. That way, she wouldn't have felt as guilty. But I really believe Amy did it on principle and Mayim has feelings about this issue as well which is why I think the delivery felt so genuine. 

 

One thing is for sure , If Amy thought she had the looks , she certainly would have flaunted those.

I don't think this is something we can say for sure either. If Amy had those looks, she wouldn't have been the person she is today -- maybe not even with those opinions either. In general, I believe Amy does have some personal vanity issues, but as far as flaunting the looks that she does have, she is very selective in who she points them out to (ie Sheldon although I think she kind of points out her looks to Leonard and Raj, but those were before she was official with Sheldon. She's faithful.) But at the same time I think she does appreciate some of her looks as she does mention a few times about guys oogling her. I think Amy knows by now that there are people who find her attractive. I think she's the relatable kind of girl where they know they feel pretty about themselves just as often as they feel bad about themselves. So, in general, I think if she were to suddenly obtain those looks (by whatever fantasmic mean), as the person she is right now, I don't think that would be the case.

[Guest]

Amy shouldn't have sent a letter to the magazine IMO. Even if Bernadette gets nothing out of it, so what? It's not Amy's decision, it's Bernadette's and I don't like how she's barging in her business kind of behind her back. And at the end, Bernadette is the one who has to apologize?

[Chrismo]

Sorry but I don't think it has anything to do with being Shamy, but being different people, working in different fields. That makes different opinions. For example I as teacher and future psychologist,  can't afford have any of sexy photos in magazine... what message would it send to my patients, kids, or their parents ? To see me somewhere in sexy positions, maybe even half naked ? There are fields, you have to think about your behavior, because your work goes past your workplace and people are watching you even in your personal life. You can make mistake, and no one would take you seriously anymore. Science is one of these. It's just current society, maybe in twenty years, situation will be different. And Amy didn't say they shouldn't do the photoshoot, but expressed her opinion, which creators of article agreed with... she had every right to do that. That they canceled it isn't her fault. 

 

Amy shouldn't have sent a letter to the magazine IMO. Even if Bernadette gets nothing out of it, so what? It's not Amy's decision, it's Bernadette's and I don't like how she's barging in her business kind of behind her back. And at the end, Bernadette is the one who has to apologize?

Behind her back and not telling Bernadette what she 's going to do was my problem. But that's okay since Amy's you know who's girlfriend so she gets the same "free pass" he gets.

[Kichi]

Amy shouldn't have sent a letter to the magazine IMO. Even if Bernadette gets nothing out of it, so what? It's not Amy's decision, it's Bernadette's and I don't like how she's barging in her business kind of behind her back. And at the end, Bernadette is the one who has to apologize?

If Amy was going purely out of the way to send the letter because Bernadette specifically was in it, then yes, Amy is in the wrong. If she was actively trying to shame Bernadette for expressing her sexuality in a medium that wasn't linked to her field, then yes, Amy was wrong. However, the way I view it is that Amy was doing it because she felt it wasn't the right medium for that kind of exposure. There are some places where professionalism should be maintained and Amy felt that it wasn't the place for anyone. Amy specifically gave answers that related to women of science as a whole, not specifically to Bernadette to show off her body. These were separated in the Amy's mind where Bernadette felt personally attacked because she was in it. Bernadette should have apologized, and did which was good because she explicitly attacked Amy's sexuality when Amy didn't do that to her (as reason's stated above).

 

Now what Amy should have apologized for was the following: going behind Bernie's back and sending it, not explicitly saying/assuring her that it wasn't because she didn't want Bernadette to express her body.

 

And I think that's fair and we can all love the characters for their faults!

[mamallama]

I'm with Amy on this one.  I've got a BSEE and an MSCS, my undergrad class was only 4% women across all engineering disciplines, and I've been "mistaken" for the secretary more times than I have fingers and toes (and, yes, I have all of them). I've had to work twice as hard as any of my males peers to have my work noticed and appreciated.  I don't mind being considered "one of the guys" and have generally found that it's the previous generation that had a harder time accepting me than mine or subsequent ones.  However, flaunting my sexuality is never anything I ever considered and it certainly wouldn't get that satellite system or computer designed. Even now, being in technical sales. it's my knowledge of my product and my clients needs that makes my sale.  Not saying that I don't want to be noticed, and am glad my husband did, but having a sexy scientist photo shoot puts all of us, men and women back.  Bernadette was too flattered to think about what it really meant and Amy was right to call her out on it.

[tmp]

Although some opinions are more biased than others. Seems all the Shamy fans are taking Amy side. Surprise. Surprise.

 

Please don't lump all Shamy fans together, and please don't make snarky comments about any group of fans.  Wouldn't we prefer to keep things civil?

[Chaliceinnana]

Amy was also correct to take her concern to the magazine. She doesn't owe it to Bernadette to not express her opinions to Scientific Magazines just because her friend has decided to do something stupid for them! She also probably didn't think as one person she'd get the article cancelled. As I said before, she was probably not the only female scientist that thought it was an exploitive idea.

 

It is OOC for Bernadette to have considered it. She's worked very hard to get where she is to throw it away for a few thrilling moments of parading around in her underwear. She's a tiny woman with a baby voice. I can't imagine people just hand her respect on a plate. She's had to earn it.

 

The only in character reason I can see for her acting this way is that she's really unhappy with Howard and she's starting to act out.

[Chrismo]

I'm with Amy on this one.  I've got a BSEE and an MSCS, my undergrad class was only 4% women across all engineering disciplines, and I've been "mistaken" for the secretary more times than I have fingers and toes (and, yes, I have all of them). I've had to work twice as hard as any of my males peers to have my work noticed and appreciated.  I don't mind being considered "one of the guys" and have generally found that it's the previous generation that had a harder time accepting me than mine or subsequent ones.  However, flaunting my sexuality is never anything I ever considered and it certainly wouldn't get that satellite system or computer designed. Even now, being in technical sales. it's my knowledge of my product and my clients needs that makes my sale.  Not saying that I don't want to be noticed, and am glad my husband did, but having a sexy scientist photo shoot puts all of us, men and women back.  Bernadette was too flattered to think about what it really meant and Amy was right to call her out on it.

This is like beaten a dead horse. No one disagrees with what your saying. But everyone seems to be okay with Amy going behind her supposed friend's back to not have the pictures and article in the magazine. It seems to me Bernadette could have said nothing to Amy about it and waited for the magazine to come out. It seems nice Bernadette to give Amy that courtesy bur obviously that courtesy wasn't returned.

[denajeanx]

Please don't lump all Shamy fans together, and please don't make snarky comments about any group of fans.  Wouldn't we prefer to keep things civil?

 

I am considering it impossible.

Behind her back and not telling Bernadette what she 's going to do was my problem. But that's okay since Amy's you know who's girlfriend so she gets the same "free pass" he gets.

 

How is it a free pass? Amy was right and Bernadette admitted that. I don't even understand the argument.

 

The fact is the writers chose to bring up a REAL issue in society. Maybe you might not be familiar with how hard it is for real life women in STEM fields to be taken seriously and how a magazine shoot like this would make it even harder. Before you keep making comments, perhaps you should have a read or two on the real-life issue.

 

I agree that it is completely OOC for Bernadette.

[mamallama]

This is like beaten a dead horse. No one disagrees with what your saying. But everyone seems to be okay with Amy going behind her supposed friend's back to not have the pictures and article in the magazine. It seems to me Bernadette could have said nothing to Amy about it and waited for the magazine to come out. It seems nice Bernadette to give Amy that courtesy bur obviously that courtesy wasn't returned.

Bernie was giving Amy a courtesy to tell her about the magazine spread?  I don't think so.  Bernie was showing off that she was asked.  She was not thinking about how hard she had to work to get where she is, she was thinking how flattered she was to be considered sexy and asked to pose.  Amy had every right to her opinion that it was bad for science and women, in general.  She also had every right to contact that magazine and tell them just how degrading that picture spread was. 

[BespectacledBrunette]

Amy was also correct to take her concern to the magazine. She doesn't owe it to Bernadette to not express her opinions to Scientific Magazines just because her friend has decided to do something stupid for them! She also probably didn't think as one person she'd get the article cancelled. As I said before, she was probably not the only female scientist that thought it was an exploitive idea.

 

It is OOC for Bernadette to have considered it. She's worked very hard to get where she is to throw it away for a few thrilling moments of parading around in her underwear. She's a tiny woman with a baby voice. I can't imagine people just hand her respect on a plate. She's had to earn it.

 

The only in character reason I can see for her acting this way is that she's really unhappy with Howard and she's starting to act out.

On a total side note: If this had been a bigger storyline, I wonder how Howard would have felt about his wife wanting to parade about in her underwear.  I honestly can't decide whether he'd be cocky about showing off his sexy wife to other guys or jealous when he realized that sleazy guys (like he used to be) would be ogling her. That said, I'm rather glad the writers didn't go down that particular road.

[batman75]

I really enjoyed last night's episode. 

 

Particularly (it was Lenny based with the ring and the doctor) on the progress with Lenny on how they handle things now. I loved the you owe me from Leonard and the smile from Penny to what Leonard was doing (she knows he didn't like it, she knows she needs to make it up) and Leonard was being pretty ironic. It worked great. But it also gave another dimension into their relationship and I want to see how she repays lol. 

 

I also loved the collection that was shown in the episode: I wanted everything. The guys did a perfect reaction into having all those props and collectibles and the arcade games. All classics! Batman, Superman, Mr. Freeze, Magneto, Robocop, and many other great collectibles. It took me back to when I will go to the arcades with my brother but I never had the chance to play those classics that the boys were playing with. Production did amazing at putting this room together. And the guys did great in it. 

 

Now into the biggest issue/topic in this episode: Woman/Science/Sales. The writers have been given the different angles with the girls: 

 

Penny: Now in sales and with previous experience into waitressing and society views: she harmlessly flirts. When I say harmlessly its because she won't do anything to cheat on Leonard but it helps for her approach to sales to hide the ring and be a little flirty. Also, most people in sales for pharmaceutical companies are hired for their ability to sale not to give them a lecture or have a medical background. 

 

Bernadette: She accepted a job that pays a lot in a pharmaceutical company. A pharmaceutical company needs the one of the best PR departments, just like any other big company, but most people don't see the work in the back. Bernadette felt flattered for the offer and she understands Amy's point of view as she has worked really hard to be respected as well (just look at how her boss is scared of her). But people need to understand that Bernadette sees things in terms of PR, image and sales. That is the part that gets her the money, not the research. And her views have been touched upon in many episodes: like the time her company invented restless eye syndrome and cured it. The offer was probably given to her as an opportunity for both her profile and the company she works for. 

 

Amy: She is a neurologist and she works for a university in research. The type of funding that they need is based on a type of PR as well but it needs to be primarily mostly focused on results from their research. Amy does not work for a company that sales a product, she works directly on the field and last night we heard her views. 

 

Now both are women going through different situations and decisions that a lot of people, particularly women, go through in their work life. I'm not saying Amy, Bernadette or Penny are doing what is right. They are doing and expressing what they think is right and for me that is fine. Penny gets judged and now Amy and Bernadette. Do I think Amy should've gone behind her friend's back to get the article cancelled? No. I think and Amy knows it wasn't right. Bernadette needs to make the decision. But I think it is important to look into the different angles and see what society sets up for us. 

 

In both genders and what it constitutes to use image on the workplace. 

 

The show has explored this before: like when Leonard got the grant and slept with the older lady. Penny was judging him hard because he did something serious, it was not harmless. But the way people reacted to that incident was different from every one of the guys. Now the girls are facing these different settings. For example,  Leonard understood that she is doing that only for the sales and he knows how it works everywhere. (My own aunt works in a Casino and is married, the casino won't allow her to wear her ring because they like her image. She is even on the commercials that the hotel uses to promote. Do I have an opinion on that? Yes and she does too but she tells me "hey it helps with the tips" so she agrees) But Leonard still doesn't like it. Fair point. 

 

I think we can go into sexualized images and what is fair or not right with many fields (women in film/tv/and so on being the biggest one) but with science the show can show some depth and use it as a comedy tool. Prove that they have done it right at presenting so many views is the current debate in this topic. So they get points for that. 

 

Loved the episode. 

Edited October 31, 2014 by batman75

[phantagrae]

Behind her back and not telling Bernadette what she 's going to do was my problem. But that's okay since Amy's you know who's girlfriend so she gets the same "free pass" he gets.

 

Why are you insisting that the only reason people are agreeing with Amy's stance and actions is because she's Sheldon's girlfriend and therefore gets a free pass?

 

If it had been any of the other characters who objected, like Howard or even Leonard, or even Penny, would you be trying make the same assertion about their fans?

"Oh, I guess it's not a surprise that all the Lenny fans are agreeing with Penny", or "Penny gets a free pass because she's you-know-who's girlfriend!"

 

I'm not agreeing with Amy's stance because of her relationship with Sheldon or because I'm a Shamy fan.  I agree with her because her assertions are right and are applicable to all kinds of women in all kinds of fields.

 

And Bernie wasn't informing Penny and Amy about the photo shoot as any kind of "courtesy"--she didn't owe either of them an explanation or a heads-up.  She was simply telling them about something she thought was a neat thing, though she didn't seem to have thought it through from the negative side.  She was flattered, she was thinking it would be good publicity for her work, but she wasn't thinking through all the other implications.

IMO, it was very similar to Raj's "30 Under 30" People magazine shoot in terms of how she was flattered.  But see, in Raj's case, he wasn't being featured for his good looks, but for the fact that he had achieved some remarkable things before he was 30 years old.  Even so, he let it go to his head.

 

In Bernie's case, she was letting it go to her head before it happened, but she wasn't being featured for the quality of her work and Amy called her on it.  Then Amy spoke up for the sake of all women and the issue of such exploitation sending the wrong signals.

 

Taking Amy's side in this situation has NOTHING to do with Sheldon/Shamy or "free passes" for anyone.  Just because you don't like Sheldon or Shamy fans or whatever else it is you're trying to imply, doesn't mean that that's the only reason to defend Amy's stance.

 

I like Amy, but I don't always defend her actions--as some other Shamy fans can attest.  But in this case, of course I do.

[Tomasina]

I think it's obvious by now that no matter what your take is on this, it is a real issue. Maybe we should just open a new thread in chit chat about women and sexual dynamics in the work place so we can talk more about it there and separate it from getting caught up in defending penny's/amy's/Bernadette's individual actions more than we already have.

[Chrismo]

This is TBBT not 60 minutes. World problems are not getting solved in 20 minutes. I have generally not disagreed with anyone on all the points people have made. I never called any character stupid or asked to see Bernadette wearing next to nothing. I would have been fine with the whole thing if Amy had told Bernadette that she was going to contact the magazine about not having  pictures in the issue. Or admit after the fact that she should have said something. It may have been a stupid thing to do what Bernadette was going to do but it should have been her decision. Someone mentioned earlier that Amy was speaking on behalf of all women on this issue of exploitation. It seems to me Amy has been exploited on other issues on this show and there is barely a ripple on that.

[Nogravitasatall]

Amy shouldn't have sent a letter to the magazine IMO. Even if Bernadette gets nothing out of it, so what? It's not Amy's decision, it's Bernadette's and I don't like how she's barging in her business kind of behind her back. And at the end, Bernadette is the one who has to apologize?

But who has the agency here? It's a tremendously provocative setup because it's analogous to the real problem with the paparazzi, the glossies, the other glossies and the internet (And that damn male gaze - that Amy channeled for a moment). Again, the abyss beckons. Very thought provoking. Glad they put it in.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Nogravitasatall

[djsurrey]

This is TBBT not 60 minutes. World problems are not getting solved in 20 minutes.[snip]

 

Well there is nothing wrong with problems getting mentioned or acknowledged. It has been common enough in sitcoms in the past.

[phantagrae]

Amy shouldn't have sent a letter to the magazine IMO. Even if Bernadette gets nothing out of it, so what? It's not Amy's decision, it's Bernadette's and I don't like how she's barging in her business kind of behind her back. And at the end, Bernadette is the one who has to apologize?

 

IMO, she wasn't doing it to prevent Bernadette from doing the photo shoot.  Though she didn't tell Bernie about the letter to begin with, she didn't send the letter only because of Bernie's participation.  Amy objected to the whole premise of the article and that was what her email was about, not about Bernie specifically.

I think it would have been different if Amy had written to them and said, "Don't use Bernadette Wolowitz in your photo shoot!"

 

And Bernadette's apology wasn't about the magazine shoot, it was about the rude comment she made to Amy, telling her that the only reason she objected to the magazine shoot was because she was jealous and, to paraphrase, unattractive or not sexy.

That goes back to the issue of people saying that the only reason a woman objects to something sexually exploitative is because she's not the one getting exploited.  If you object it must be because you're ugly and jealous.

 

For that, yes, Bernadette needed to apologize.  Whatever disagreement she and Amy might have over the issue of such an article, Bernie had no right to make it personal.  Amy's stance wasn't about Bernie personally, but about women in science and such an article in general.  But Bernie made it a personal issue by saying Amy was jealous and unattractive.

Edited October 31, 2014 by phantagrae