Episodes 807 The Misinterpretation Agitation (October 30)

[sarah7]

Well said Phantagrae, in both your posts.

 

There seems to be a bit of confusion here, with Amy's habitual quirkyness and odd comments about sexuality and attractiveness and her attitude towards her work. In such an inconsistent show as TBBT, I think there are still plenty of examples that she takes her work as a scientist very seriously and doesn't compromise it, not even for Sheldon, who arguiably is her biggest weakness.

 

I don't think Amy's reaction would had been the same if Bernardette (or Penny) had been invited to pose in a magazine like Playboy, with no direct relation or alusion between her scientific work and her hotness.

 

Ah!, Faisal!, I don't think there is another one-time-joke that had received as much attention from the fans than him. He is a truly exotic mystery, isn't he?

I still fail to see the relation between Amy's big misdemeanor with Faisal and the problem addressed in this episode, though.

 

And how exactly do you think the Amy "prostituted" herself in that ocassion? how do you think the "engagement" occured and what happened then that throws so much shame on her? Could you please elaborate?

[Denise07]

Well, I suppose if Shamy decide to get engaged perhaps another holiday episode.  In this one, Faisal shows up (not invited) and hysterics ensue that ultimately lead to the engagement being broken off. 

 

Or is it one of those never to be brought up things by the TPTB??...not sure.  Remains to be seen.

 

As for the Bernie/Amy story line...wow stirred up a lot of feelings.  Guess too I was able to move so quickly past it because as soon as Bernie made her comment, she tried to apologize to Amy.  Overall, it's not a big deal to me for either character, IMO, in the big picture.  But that's just me.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Denise07

[Chrismo]

 

 

And how exactly do you think the Amy "prostituted" herself in that ocassion? how do you think the "engagement" occured and what happened then that throws so much shame on her? Could you please elaborate?

Well I know how Leonard got funding for the university.? Who knows Amy got funding for her work. What would have happened IF Bernadette had been in the magazine?

[phantagrae]

Still the question remains? Why did Amy always put down Bernie simply because she considered Penny more pretty than Bernie. She never raised the point of Bernie being a scientist back then.

 

If she had the same attitude , which she had shown in this episode , she would always try to support Bernie instead of Penny.

 

Anyway as one the poster mentioned above she was engaged to a dude from Saudi Arabia to get some funding. Something which is work related.

Again it boils to the same thing, as long as she does it , its ok. But if others do it is unethical or demeaning. Hypocrite.

 

First of all, when Amy was saying stuff like, "Not Penny beautiful..." when referring to Bernie, she was talking about Bernie's looks alone, compared to Penny's looks alone.  It had nothing to do with anyone's professional integrity, whereas the article was going to be specifically about female scientists and which ones were sexy, as if one's sexuality were more important than one's work.

 

I think that the point of the Faisal story (which is something Prady has said will never be revisited) was that she had to schmooze Faisal for her funding.  If he wanted to call her his fiance she went along with it, just like the others had to kiss up to the rich people at that reception, but she obviously didn't sleep with him (the way Leonard did with that old lady.)

 

And I do think that the Faisal story was obviously intended to be more of a throwaway, since it has never come up since then.

They've had all of the characters say or do something that was perhaps out of character or tossed off to make a joke, and I don't think they intended the Faisal thing to be dwelt upon.  They didn't have Amy calling him up to break off their "technical" engagement because the writers have never considered Faisal an ongoing thing.

Prady has said he's surprised that people still fixate on that.

 

Whatever the case, I still think that Amy was in the right to object to the article, which is all she really did.  In writing to the magazine, she was simply voicing her opinion about sexual exploitation of women in the field of science.  She wasn't telling them that Bernie was ugly or that they shouldn't hire Bernie and should hire herself instead or anything like that.

And if the magazine decided to rethink their idea for the article, then that's again not a judgment of Amy's or Bernie's sexuality, but a decision based on the principle of sexual exploitation.

[phantagrae]

Well I know how Leonard got funding for the university.? Who knows Amy got funding for her work. What would have happened IF Bernadette had been in the magazine?

 

Amy has clearly stated that she's never been with a man, which would include Faisal, so she didn't get her funding the way Leonard did.

 

I think that the writers clearly intended for Amy's viewpoint to be the correct one, since Bernie quickly fell back on the "you're just jealous" line, which was obviously a personal dig, not a professional assessment of the situation.  Though Bernie had mentioned that such an article could generate publicity for her work, I think it's obvious that if she did some sexy photo shoot, the attention wouldn't be on her work.  They'd probably have her in some sexy outfit that drew attention to her body, not her work.

 

So what kind of publicity is that?  IMO, the only people who should do such photoshoots are people who trade on their bodies, like models.

If your "product" is a result of your intellect, what does your bra size or waist measurement have to do with your accomplishments?

 

Yes, you can be pretty and smart at the same time, but why wasn't this SCIENCE magazine doing an article on the most successful or intelligent women in science?  Isn't that the more important thing to acknowledge?

 

If they took photos of the most intelligent or most accomplished women, some of them, like Bernie, would naturally be seen as beautiful by some people, but the emphasis of the article IN A SCIENCE MAGAZINE would have been on the science, not on breasts and other body parts.

 

As for Faisal being a throwaway line, I think Prady has made it clear that Faisal was a one-time mention and not an important aspect in the ongoing story they're telling.

Faisal was said to be a Middle-Eastern dilletante.  Whether or not he was smitten with Amy and wanted to be engaged to her (and he could have a whole bunch of other wives, as well), there was nothing in Amy's exchange that said she showed up in her underwear in order to secure funding.

 

There's nothing in that conversation to suggest that she did anything different than some kind of presentation of her work like the guys were being asked to do.  Go to a reception or whatever, answer questions about your work and be nice to the rich people.

Do you really think that Amy showed up in a bikini in order to entice Faisal?  She of the layers of wool and polyester?  He wouldn't have been the only one she talked to.

 

Even so, as I said, Prady seems to consider Faisal a throwaway.

[Chiany]

Wow, some ppl obviously can´t deal with the fact that both Amy and Sheldon (some how he got dragged into this) are almost always right. They both may be direct and sometimes blunt about it, but still they are right.

Just like Amy was in this situation.

[Midru]

Amy is a whiny, needy person who acted selfishly and hid behind a principle. That's the real issue.

 

Amy's words made sense, but that does not make her right. We can unearth many instances where Amy betrayed her perch as some pure, noble scientist. So she cannot run to that as if she is some paragon. And Faisal is presumably still in Saudi Arabia waiting to marry Amy. Having given her millions. She has definitely been there (camel race photos) and has a place to stay. To what level did she go to secure funding? It was much more than a handshake at a party. 

 

One way or another she directly used her romantic availability to fund her science endeavors. Much worse than what Bernadette would have done. The larger point is that Amy is a hypocrite who has absolutely no business lecturing Bernadette about women in science. 

 

She has also shown herself to be a terrible friend who routinely craps all over Bernadette. And she has been extremely immature in social situations in general. So IMO there was nothing noble about what Amy did. 

Edited November 6, 2014 by Midru

[phantagrae]

Amy is a whiny, needy person who acted selfishly and hid behind a principle. That's the real issue.

 

Amy's words made sense, but that does not make her right. We can unearth many instances where Amy betrayed her perch as some pure, noble scientist. So she cannot run to that as if she is some paragon. And Faisal is presumably still in Saudi Arabia waiting to marry Amy. Having given her millions. She has definitely been there (camel race photos) and has a place to stay. To what level did she go to secure funding? It was much more than a handshake at a party. 

 

One way or another she directly used her romantic availability to fund her science endeavors. Much worse than what Bernadette would have done. The larger point is that Amy is a hypocrite who has absolutely no business lecturing Bernadette about women in science. 

 

She has also shown herself to be a terrible friend who routinely craps all over Bernadette. And she has been extremely immature in social situations in general. So IMO there was nothing noble about what Amy did. 

 

Wow. Such pure Amy hate going on here.

 

Though Amy isn't perfect, neither is Bernie, and Bernadette herself should have seen the implications of participating in such an article, whether or not Amy was there to point it out.

 

If you want to go around stomping on various characters, I think you can find flaws in all of them.  Bernie routinely talks about the various side effects of the medications her company comes up with--and talks about selling them before the side effects are well known, etc..  She was happy to crow about how her company both created a syndrome and the "cure" for it--the one where she says, "Take that, you blinky chumps" or whatever.

Yeah, she's full of integrity.

 

Did Amy play on her availability to Faisal, or did Faisal pressure her into accepting the engagement as a condition for the funding?  We don't really know, but since the storytellers have decided not to make that an ongoing point, then I don't think it's fair to use it against her.

One might just as well talk about Sheldon's foamy vengeance not getting him fired, or the lack of integrity of the 3 others in messing with his Arctic experiment, or Howard's use of the Mars Rover, or Leonard sleeping with Mrs. Latham--for funding or just for fun?

 

The point is that the show is a comedy but in this case, the writers used Amy's stance to make a point and that point was that Bernadette was in the wrong for first agreeing to do the shoot and then for calling Amy jealous when it was made clear in the dialog that that was not the case.

One cannot assign motive (people saying that Amy was indeed jealous) where there is no evidence.  One could just as easily say that Bernadette hates Amy and that's why she lashed out.  There's no evidence that she hates Amy, though there was evidence that Bernie was perhaps stung by the truth of Amy's point (and that she, Bernie, had been intending to play up her sexuality.)

 

There's no point in trying to pretend that any one of the characters is a saint, when they've all clearly had their low moments, but in this particular case, I think the writers made it clear that Amy's stance was intended to be the correct one.

 

Would it have been different if Leonard or even Howard had objected to Bernie participating?  If the principle is the same--that such an article is demeaning to all women in science--then what difference does it make who makes the point?  However, I think that of all the characters, Amy was the best person to make the point since she's a fellow female scientist, and she was an easy target for Bernie's ugly remark.

[Midru]

Personally, I don't hate Amy. I just think she was wrong to criticize Bernadette, and wrong to sabotage the magazine article. 

[phantagrae]

Personally, I don't hate Amy. I just think she was wrong to criticize Bernadette, and wrong to sabotage the magazine article. 

 

So that Bernadette could flaunt her body and hope that someone looking at her boobs would think she was a good scientist?

 

Yeah, and men buy Playboy for the articles.

[Tomasina]

For all we know faisal was gay and amy agreed to pose as his fiancee for a short time to distract his family. Since we will never know it's really a topic for fanfics, not a central proof of amy's character.

[MTBigBangTheoryFan]

I wonder how Howard would have felt about his wife appearing in a Magazine flaunting her sexuality for hundreds of mens to look at. There no doubt he would have had a priblem.

Amy was not jealous and she made a good Point.

It not like she wrote to them telling them how ugly Bernadette was and telling them to not let her take part, She never mentioned Bernadette in her letter. Amy has a right to an opinion of her own as well.

I was on Amy Side with this and Bernadette comment to Amy was out of line and pretty mean I think, That the part I had a problem with.

And I do not think it was just Amy letter that had it canclled, I think there were many other complaints as well.p beside Amy and they reconsidered. I do not think they would have Cancelled based on one letter or Complaint.

It not like Amy was holding a Gun to Bernadette head telling her she would not be doing it

Edited November 6, 2014 by MTBigBangTheoryFan

[sarah7]

Amy is a whiny, needy person who acted selfishly and hid behind a principle. That's the real issue.

 

Amy's words made sense, but that does not make her right. We can unearth many instances where Amy betrayed her perch as some pure, noble scientist. So she cannot run to that as if she is some paragon. And Faisal is presumably still in Saudi Arabia waiting to marry Amy. Having given her millions. She has definitely been there (camel race photos) and has a place to stay. To what level did she go to secure funding? It was much more than a handshake at a party. 

 

One way or another she directly used her romantic availability to fund her science endeavors. Much worse than what Bernadette would have done. The larger point is that Amy is a hypocrite who has absolutely no business lecturing Bernadette about women in science. 

 

She has also shown herself to be a terrible friend who routinely craps all over Bernadette. And she has been extremely immature in social situations in general. So IMO there was nothing noble about what Amy did. 

 

The first bolded part: Sorry, but this is pure speculation of your part. Otherwise, could you please point out the part of the episode that supports your affirmation that Amy was speaking out of jealousy?

 

The second one: See why I say you are confusing things? This was not an issue of morality, it was an issue of sexism. Problem was not that Bernie was going to pose withouth clothes, or how horrible person Amy really is, the problem was that men, whatever their profession is, are not required to be sexy, whereas women's looks are always something that needs to be put on top of all of their other qualities, no matter what their achievements are or what they do for a living.

 

It was not about what adults agree to do with their bodies personally, for pleasure, money or microscopes, but about the social perception of women's value. Amy was not going against Bernardette, but against the idea behind the article.

[Chrismo]

Bernadette was going to pose without clothes? Damn I can always go back and read SRAM's fan fiction.LOL

[sarah7]

Bernadette was going to pose without clothes? Damn I can always go back and read SRAM's fan fiction.LOL

 

Speaking of fanfiction, I'm starting to get interested in yours about Amy's raunchy adventures with Faisal, Oh!, and Midru's angsty one about the poor little Saudi prince weeping for the cruel bespectacled vixen that broke his heart and ran away with his millions.

Edited November 6, 2014 by sarah7

[Tomasina]

No nudes, but there is no universe in which an article about sexy female scientists is going to published without photographs.

Ok, I just imagined several universes where that could be true, but not this one and not TBBT's.

[phantagrae]

No nudes, but there is no universe in which an article about sexy female scientists is going to published without photographs.

Ok, I just imagined several universes where that could be true, but not this one and not TBBT's.

 

And she wouldn't have been posing in a woolen turtleneck and tweed jacket.

 

And probably not a lab coat either, unless she had nothing but underwear on underneath.

[hokie3457]

Just stop. You had me at woolen turtleneck and tweed jacket!

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[Chrismo]

So that Bernadette could flaunt her body and hope that someone looking at her boobs would think she was a good scientist?

 

 

Amy was looking.

[Guest]

So that Bernadette could flaunt her body and hope that someone looking at her boobs would think she was a good scientist?

 

It was her choice. The possible outcome doesn't really matter.

 

Wow, some ppl obviously can´t deal with the fact that both Amy and Sheldon (some how he got dragged into this) are almost always right. They both may be direct and sometimes blunt about it, but still they are right.

Just like Amy was in this situation.

 

I don't think that's true at all. They may be right in their own little world, but not when it comes to other people/couples. And how many times did they prove Sheldon wrong? I stopped counting... You may be thinking they are always right, but that doesn't mean it's true and we don't have to agree with you.

[phantagrae]

It was her choice. The possible outcome doesn't really matter.

 

 

I don't think that's true at all. They may be right in their own little world, but not when it comes to other people/couples. And how many times did they prove Sheldon wrong? I stopped counting... You may be thinking they are always right, but that doesn't mean it's true and we don't have to agree with you.

 

Amy didn't tie Bernie down and stop her from making the choice.  She simply voiced her opinion on the sexual exploitation of women in the field of science.  If the magazine rethought the article, perhaps they acknowledged the error of the concept.

 

Again, Amy didn't force Bernie to choose not to do the article--and Bernie herself acknowledged that perhaps it wasn't right to do it in the first place.  AND she acknowledged that her comment about Amy being jealous was also wrong.

 

IMO, there's no point in counting how many times one character or another has been wrong.  I believe they've all made wrong choices or been in the wrong at one time or another and more than once.  They've each fallen short at different times.

 

And I don't think that ANYONE who was agreeing with Amy's actions EVER made the suggestion that Amy (or Sheldon or anyone else) was infallible or that they were supporting Amy simply because she is Sheldon's girlfriend.

 

That was a conclusion jumped to and asserted by others.

[Tonstar17]

It was her choice. The possible outcome doesn't really matter.

I don't think that's true at all. They may be right in their own little world, but not when it comes to other people/couples. And how many times did they prove Sheldon wrong? I stopped counting... You may be thinking they are always right, but that doesn't mean it's true and we don't have to agree with you.

OK. Here is my rant. I am sick of the way Sheldon keeps putting down the Lenny relationship every episode this season. This is the same Sheldon that a lots of posters defended by saying he was being sincere when he pleaded with Penny not to break up with Leonard. Every episode he has said or made some nasty comment or degraded the wonderful relationship that is lenny. Is he jealous of lenny? Maybe. Last episode he basically told Dr. Creepy that they had bets on when Lenny are going to break up and for his own selfish reasons encouraged the Dr to carry on his creepiness towards penny. But that's OK because it's golden balls. Posters need to sometimes take the beer goggles off & admit when characters are wrong & stop defending or making excuses for their behaviours be it Leonard, Amy or penny etc. ppls also need to stop speaking on behalf of characters like someone said Howard wouldn't be happy or support Bernie's decision to be in a scientific photo shoot, how does anyone know that, he might even love it.

Rant done.

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[3ku11]

Look i am not condoming the Amy hate, Amy has become one of my favorite characters over the years. But I can't condome this protecting Amy when she clearly did something wrong. Like "Amy ad Sheldon are almost always right, like she was in this situation". Sorry that makes it like people are saying everyone is wrong, but Amy and Sheldon. That highlights the point again not making them accountable for their behaviour, when everyone else is being. Why should they be any different? Amy was wrong in this case, she was a bad friend and sabotaged Bernadettes magazine thing. Does not make Amy a bad person, but I just just don't look at her character with an agenda that her happiness is above all, she is just one person, and a supporting one in that. It is just the consistency and continuity in this fandom. Sheldon and Amy should be as accountable for their behaviour as any character on this show.In the S7 finalie Amy was just as much as a bad friend as Penny (Who I think was the better friend imo). Yet Penny got all the crap from fans, and not Amy. Everyone feels sorry for her, yet she is not as innocent as people make her out to be. I just don't choose to hide behind some selective mutinism, of hiding behind the characters flaws. Penny is not perfect, she has done bad things let just come out and say that. They all have flaws. Only difference is Amy and Sheldon are never accountable from some fans. I agree re Sheldon putting down Lenny, last ep almost encourgaing Dr Creepy to break Lenny up. Obviousley last Taping Report showed Sheldon is a caring friend to Leonard. But I do have a feeling he woulden't care either way if Penny was out of their lives. Okay rant over .

Edited November 6, 2014 by 3ku11

[phantagrae]

Look i am not condoming the Amy hate, Amy has become one of my favorite characters over the years. But I can't condoming this protecting Amy when she clearly did something wrong. Like "Amy ad Sheldon are almost always right, like she was in this situation". Sorry that makes it like people are saying everyone is wrong, but Amy and Sheldon. That highlights the point again not making them accountable for their behaviour, when everyone else is being. Why should they be any different? Amy was wrong in this case, she was a bad friend and sabotaged Bernadettes magazine thing. Does not make Amy a bad person, but I just just don't look at her character with an agenda that her happiness is above all, she is just one person, and a supporting one in that. 

 

YOU think she did something wrong.

 

The point of this discussion is that some people think she did the right thing, regardless of Sheldon.  And even if someone things that Amy and Sheldon are usually right (and that's certainly a debatable point), that doesn't mean that Amy was wrong in this situation.

 

And nobody is saying that Sheldon and/or Amy shouldn't be held accountable for their behavior--they often are.  But in this case, the point is that many people believe that Amy acted correctly--and that seems to be the point the writers were asserting, as well.

 

She didn't sabotage Bernie's magazine shoot--she simply complained to the magazine once she heard what they were planning to do.  I think she would have done the same thing if Bernie had mentioned the article in passing as was not actually involved.  And Bernie should have objected, herself, to being objectified as "sexy" when she's much more than the size of her boobs.

 

I don't think Amy was being a bad friend.  Though she didn't tell Bernie, until after the fact, that she had written to the magazine, Amy was certainly free to tell the magazine what she thought of the idea , which is all she did.  Does that mean that Amy ruined the happiness of the other 49 women who were going to flaunt their bodies over their scientific values?

I think she did them all a favor.  And again, the issue would be the same no matter who objected to Bernie doing such a spread.

 

I think Bernie was the bad friend for making what was not personal and making it personal.

 

Amy didn't write to the magazine out of personal malice or jealousy or any other personal issue, but simply because of the principle involved.  Amy was talking about the consequences of women in science degrading their accomplishments by giving in to sexist objectifying, how any one female scientist's image affects them all.

 

Bernie is the one who chose to lash out and make it personal, effectively calling Amy unattractive and jealous, rather than admitting that Amy was right.

 

No one has said, as far as I can remember, that Amy's happiness is more important than anyone else's and I don't know what you are trying to imply about Amy being "just a supporting" character.  What does that have to do with Amy's stance on professionalism?

 

The writers wrote this scenario and had her point out how Bernie's actions in a situation like this reflect on all women in science.  Amy as a character can only say what the writers give her to say, and they had her point out an important truth.

 

And Bernie's point was the ambivalent position that many women fall into.  Yes, one should be able to flaunt one's sexuality if one chooses to, but one cannot ignore what consequences may come of it.

[hokie3457]

I just want to take Bernadette's side for a moment. What she said to Amy when she learned of Amy's letter to the magazine was almost unforgivable. The thing in her favor was that she immediately realized she crossed the line. I think on some level she thought that Amy was right, but she was distracted by the possible glamour that such attention might provide.

I'd like to think if she went along with the offer at some point she would change her mind. We have been shown in the past that Bernadette can at times be a little shy about her appearance (her slight embarrassment at Amy's remark in Vegas comes to mind). However we have seen her dress a little provocatively on 2 occasions---

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think at the end of it she may have come to agree with and understand Amy's point.

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