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820 The Fortification Implementation (April 9)

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Leonard hasn't even shown that concern ONCE this season.

 

REALLY?  

-Her wanting to cheer him up by shopping for him

-offering to pay off Leonard's student loans

-talking Leonard back into doing body paint sex

-wanting to dance with no music with him when nobody was around in the prom episode

-getting him a best fiance ever frame to show she appreciated the car

-Convincing him that he is what she NEEDS to be happy in her life in their engagement scene.

-Standing up for him in front of the director even though she was on thin ice, something that DID get her fired; and she DIDN'T hold it against him.

-Willing to fake a proposal just to make him feel better about evening up their failed proposal score.

-Keeping EVERY sweet gesture of Leonard's in a box over the years, because "IT'S HIM".

 

And there's more, but I think I've proven you're clearly misinterpreting things.

 

 

-Right coming up with a scientific theory isn't good character stuff.  :icon_rolleyes:  Telling Sheldon that HE ALONE is the reason for him not moving in with Penny at this point; a point that brought Sheldon to tears, something no character in the series has done.  Him being able to talk Penny out of taking the Relationship test, because he feels it DOESN'T MATTER.  There's many more, but at this point; I'm shooting fish in a barrel.

-Again playful teasing is not belittling him.

 

Here's my interpretation, you'll stretch just about ANY POINT to fit your "Leonard is a wuss" soapbox, even if the points can be proven wrong FACTUALLY.  Because IMO that is what you are determined to do at this point, nothing else. 

 

leonard seemed worried when the dr came knocking on penny's door with roses....and immediately went to ask her why she was'nt wearing a ring.....

so there is the *once* this season....

 

u said this season and give examples of previous seasons....seems unfair ....don't u think....

 

-paying student loans comments looking more sarcastic to me.....to each their own I guess...

-if she only needed him and not anything else...then why do back into acting which leonard did not seem to like ..... she even played leonard on air......never stopped or tried to argue with will wheaton when he was making fun of leonard on air......

- if I remember the director asked leonard if penny was too hot for leonard....(she nodded agreeingly...and did not oppose the director...)....so I don't think she stood up for him..... in fact it was the other way round....leonard tried to stand up for her.....the director made the too hot comment.....yet penny just nodded agreeingly....

 

- she rarely shares any secrets with leonard....there are many occasions where she shared secrets with sheldon....

- she goes to sheldon for advice in the next episode and even mocks him...she clearly thinks leonard is whiny and not a wise person...

otherwise why not try to explain the person who you are supposed to love what she wants and what she does'nt......does'nt make any sense......

 

 

 

as far as character stuff is concerned....if you really feel leonard gets more plots or stories when compared to Sheldon , penny or even howard ... I can't do anything....his trip to north sea is a clear cut example of his character being viewed by the writers......

 

and there's much more.....I'll reply later when I have more time....

Edited by vasu

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leonard seemed worried when the dr came knocking on penny's door with roses....and immediately went to ask her why she was'nt wearing a ring.....

so there is the *once* this season....

 

I remember him asking why the doctor said "she wasn't wearing a ring", to which she explained herself.  Also that doesn't necessarily prove he was worried that she was breaking up with him.  So NO I don't count that.

 

u said this season and give examples of previous seasons....seems unfair ....don't u think....

 

I used THIS SEASON in the last example as a measuring stick for how he hasn't recently shown any worry about the validity of their relationship.  I don't think it's unfair because you didn't specify any boundaries.

 

-paying student loans comments looking more sarcastic to me.....to each their own I guess...

The tone of her voice in that scene didn't imply that to me IMO.

 

-if she only needed him and not anything else...then why do back into acting which leonard did not seem to like ..... she even played leonard on air......never stopped or tried to argue with will wheaton when he was making fun of leonard on air......

Because the horse has been given a big fat carrot in front of her.  She's simply tempted, this is something she WANTS, not something SHE NEEDS IMO.  Also from Penny's P.O.V. why can't she have Leonard AND be an actress?  Why does it have to be one or the other.

 

She didn't play Leonard on air, Leonard got caught being a hypocrite, he was hung by his own leotard.  Just because Wil Wheaton SAYS SOMETHING doesn't make it true.

 

Despite Leonard asking him to turn it off, I don't remember Leonard shutting his mouth either.  I also remember Leonard saying ON AIR how she was depressed every time she faced rejection, and how he criticized her getting "rich and famous" from one role in a Kevin Smith movie.  You don't think that wouldn't make her feel defensive in any way?  You put Penny on the spot, but you think Leonard casts no blame?

 

- if I remember the director asked leonard if penny was too hot for leonard....(she nodded agreeingly...and did not oppose the director...)....so I don't think she stood up for him..... in fact it was the other way round....leonard tried to stand up for her.....the director made the too hot comment.....yet penny just nodded agreeingly....

 

No she didn't nod in that scene.  Leonard made a self deprecating joke about how she kind of is.  The director kicked him OFF THE SET, after he stood up for her.  After that Penny said "Hey he's with me.", after that the director fires her.  She made that comment EVEN THOUGH she was already in hot water with the director, and Leonard would've survived.  She stood up for him despite all that, and got fired for it, BUT DIDN'T hold it against Leonard.

 

as far as character stuff is concerned....if you really feel leonard gets more plots or stories when compared to Sheldon , penny or even howard
 
Where did I say he got more than them?  I never said he got MORE, your putting words in my mouth.  I simply debated whether he got anything of quality characterization.
 

his trip to north sea is a clear cut example of his character being viewed by the writers......
 
No it is not, it's a specific story where his screen time served the purpose of THAT SPECIFIC STORY.  It says nothing about the character in the writers eyes anymore than how Howard was the butt end of the jokes throughout his entire adventure in space.
 
The truth is it says more about HOW YOU view the character and his characterization in a reductive manner.
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I remember him asking why the doctor said "she wasn't wearing a ring", to which she explained herself. Also that doesn't necessarily prove he was worried that she was breaking up with him. So NO I don't count that.

I used THIS SEASON in the last example as a measuring stick for how he hasn't recently shown any worry about the validity of their relationship. I don't think it's unfair because you didn't specify any boundaries.

The tone of her voice in that scene didn't imply that to me IMO.

Because the horse has been given a big fat carrot in front of her. She's simply tempted, this is something she WANTS, not something SHE NEEDS IMO. Also from Penny's P.O.V. why can't she have Leonard AND be an actress? Why does it have to be one or the other.

She didn't play Leonard on air, Leonard got caught being a hypocrite, he was hung by his own leotard. Just because Wil Wheaton SAYS SOMETHING doesn't make it true.

Despite Leonard asking him to turn it off, I don't remember Leonard shutting his mouth either. I also remember Leonard saying ON AIR how she was depressed every time she faced rejection, and how he criticized her getting "rich and famous" from one role in a Kevin Smith movie. You don't think that wouldn't make her feel defensive in any way? You put Penny on the spot, but you think Leonard casts no blame?

No she didn't nod in that scene. Leonard made a self deprecating joke about how she kind of is. The director kicked him OFF THE SET, after he stood up for her. After that Penny said "Hey he's with me.", after that the director fires her. She made that comment EVEN THOUGH she was already in hot water with the director, and Leonard would've survived. She stood up for him despite all that, and got fired for it, BUT DIDN'T hold it against Leonard.

.

she quie clearly nodded in that scene.

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she quie clearly nodded in that scene.

 

But you know, even if she agrees that she's "too hot for him" or whatever, she's still with him, she's still engaged to him, he's still her strawberry pop-tart.

Whatever they've been through and however they see each other--he willingly admits that she could easily be with other guys (he talked about not have 3 years to make the gate at Skywalker Ranch feel sorry for him like Penny)--but when it comes down to brass tacks, they love each other and want to get married.

 

There's nothing wrong with being mismatched in that shallower way.  She's hot enough to get any guy, and for many years she did.  But that's all they were in the end--"any guy" and not THE guy, which is what Leonard is.

It took her a few years to understand why she was drawn to Leonard and how he was more valuable to her than the "dumb guys from the gym" that she had been used to dating, and that the kind of love she felt for Leonard was better than what she thought was love, that she had felt before.

But in the end, despite Leonard's nerdiness, being short and full of allergies, not being athletic or "studly", he was the one she actually fell in love with--real love.

 

So their inequality when it comes to looks, their inequality when it comes to education, and even their inequality when it comes to money--none of those things matter because of their equality when it comes to love.

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she quie clearly nodded in that scene.

 

She did but it wasn't that clear (which is why I barely noticed), and she did it AFTER Leonard's "kind of, yeah", as if she would've only done it because he was willing to mock himself because of that comment first, and her facial expression during that nod was more of the playful kind, not the serious kind during that scene.  Everything else though that I noted in that scene IS THERE.  Also as Phantagrae mentioned above, since she's Engaged to him at the end of the day, all things considered why does it matter?

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I agree with phanta and meka on this one. It seems it's typically males that think Penny's too hot for Leonard. I don't recall Penny ever getting hit on in front of Leonard or while they have been a couple. It's always been Leonard's POV of things. On the otherhand Alex didn't seem to think Penny was too hot for him when, while knowing she was his girlfriend, she asked him out. If Leonard had broken up with Penny and went out with Alex he still would of had a hot girlfriend IMO.

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I don't recall Penny ever getting hit on in front of Leonard or while they have been a couple. It's always been Leonard's POV of things. 

 

Didn't Leonard tell Penny that guys were always hitting on her and that they were always taller than him?  It's what led to her telling him she loved him.

 

What about that guy that penny met at the bar when Lenny went to the cinema together? Penny seemed to like him

 

That was when they weren't going out and I believe Penny started a convo with him.

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I think she was trying to make him jealous just like he did when he tried to chat up the girl and Penny interrupted him. Saying the guy left. I also think penny got rid of the guy because she didn't like Leonard chatting up the girl. :)

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She did but it wasn't that clear (which is why I barely noticed), and she did it AFTER Leonard's "kind of, yeah", as if she would've only done it because he was willing to mock himself because of that comment first, and her facial expression during that nod was more of the playful kind, not the serious kind during that scene.  Everything else though that I noted in that scene IS THERE.  Also as Phantagrae mentioned above, since she's Engaged to him at the end of the day, all things considered why does it matter?

Well it was quite clear to me (and to vasu apparently).

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Well it was quite clear to me (and to vasu apparently).

Maybe it wasn't clear to some of us because some of us aren't looking for any little negative thing about lenny, and then stretching it (even if its beyond credibility) to fit your pre-existing interpretations, that lenny is terrible. While ignoring the positives because those don't fit with those pre-existing interpretations.
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Because the horse has been given a big fat carrot in front of her.  She's simply tempted, this is something she WANTS, not something SHE NEEDS IMO.  Also from Penny's P.O.V. why can't she have Leonard AND be an actress?  Why does it have to be one or the other.

 

She didn't play Leonard on air, Leonard got caught being a hypocrite, he was hung by his own leotard.  Just because Wil Wheaton SAYS SOMETHING doesn't make it true.

 

Despite Leonard asking him to turn it off, I don't remember Leonard shutting his mouth either.  I also remember Leonard saying ON AIR how she was depressed every time she faced rejection, and how he criticized her getting "rich and famous" from one role in a Kevin Smith movie.  You don't think that wouldn't make her feel defensive in any way?  You put Penny on the spot, but you think Leonard casts no blame?

 

 

So u agree leonard was a hypocrite right....which is actually less critizing than what I wrote about his character in my earlier posts.....he was a *beep* person....

 

that was awful behaviour....

 

as long as he thought penny was making less money.....he wanted her to keep her job and not audition(because he did want her to get *hurt*).....but as soon as it was revealed that penny makes more money than him.......he wanted to quit her job and audition and probably fail at that ....to just satisfy his ego....to feel like more of a man......suddenly penny getting hurt did not matter at all...... he changed his colors like a chameloen ....

 

which shows how pathetic leonard just is..... and how badly his character is written........poor characterization....

 

and was'nt he the one who said in one the earlier episodes that its ok even if penny makes more money than him......

Edited by vasu

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So u agree leonard was a hypocrite right....which is actually less critizing than what I wrote about his character in my earlier posts.....he was a *beep* person....

 

that was awful behaviour....

 

So?  I don't think that makes him an awful person, just because he's a hypocrite in one instance.

 

as long as he thought penny was making less money.....he wanted her to keep her job and not audition(because he did want her to get *hurt*).....but as soon as it was revealed that penny makes more money than him.......he wanted to quit her job and audition and probably fail at that ....to just satisfy his ego....to feel like more of a man......suddenly penny getting hurt did not matter at all...... he changed his colors like a chameloen ....

 

That's not how I and many other people interpreted his behavior, yes he has a bit of a bruised ego about this revelation.  But because he was taking that all in, I don't think he was thinking that hardly about what he was agreeing on.  No where in Penny's suggestion did she suggest quitting her job, just trying out for the audition.

 

which shows how pathetic leonard just is..... and how badly his character is written........poor characterization....

 

Yes because people showing that they are human and FALLIBLE, makes them badly written.  :icon_rolleyes:

 

and was'nt he the one who said in one the earlier episodes that its ok even if penny makes more money than him......

 

I don't think he foresaw just HOW FAST it could take for Penny to make more money than him,  which is why I think he reacted the way he did.  In hindsight I think he was trying to save face with that comment, and that it might bother him more than he let on.

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Maybe it wasn't clear to some of us because some of us aren't looking for any little negative thing about lenny, and then stretching it (even if its beyond credibility) to fit your pre-existing interpretations, that lenny is terrible. While ignoring the positives because those don't fit with those pre-existing interpretations.

I have never said or implied Lenny are terrible.  I don't know how you missed that nod, the director clearly wanted you to see it, the camera focused on her. Maybe its a case of selective vision.

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Actually ajond. You are right she did nod when the director made the comment and I think Leonard kinda agreed.

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I have never said or implied Lenny are terrible.  I don't know how you missed that nod, the director clearly wanted you to see it, the camera focused on her. Maybe its a case of selective vision.

 

Actually the camera was focused on both Leonard AND Penny during that, perhaps I didn't pick up on it right away, because 1.) It was a small nod, hardly something done in a way thats meant to draw attention from the person who was talking which leads me to,  2.) Leonard was the one I focused on because he was the one TALKING.

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I think she was trying to make him jealous just like he did when he tried to chat up the girl and Penny interrupted him. Saying the guy left. I also think penny got rid of the guy because she didn't like Leonard chatting up the girl. :)

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I remember that episode, Leonard and Penny treated each other worse in that bar than they did in this episode IMO.  But despite how they treated each other in that episode, I still found it hilarious.  And I still managed to laugh at their characterizations despite all that, especially the tag scene with Leonard trying desperately to be cocky and cool ("well in that case I'm putting sex BACK on the table, what do you think of that?") and then ultimately failing at it.

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I think it was supposed to be funny that Wil was goading them on to have a fight on his show.

 

It is too easy to make too much out of the fight.

The part I found strange was when Penny said "I have a guy". As though she tells Leonard nothing about her day when she talks to her guy. I come from the "what's mine is yours" camp (with respect to my spouse). Not everyone does.

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I think it was supposed to be funny that Wil was goading them on to have a fight on his show.

 

It is too easy to make too much out of the fight.

The part I found strange was when Penny said "I have a guy". As though she tells Leonard nothing about her day when she talks to her guy. I come from the "what's mine is yours" camp (with respect to my spouse). Not everyone does.

Ahh, The perennial question of BBT..what do Leonard and Penny talk about .....

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Ahh, The perennial question of BBT..what do Leonard and Penny talk about .....

Pretty sure you missed djsurrey's point.

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I caught this last night. One thing: If Penny makes all that, why hasn't she moved? And she really needs to work on her communication. She used to tell Leonard everything. Remember the little kitten and the hobbit on the couch and the first, drunken, kiss. And the ogre at the door. What happened?

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I caught this last night. One thing: If Penny makes all that, why hasn't she moved? And she really needs to work on her communication. She used to tell Leonard everything. Remember the little kitten and the hobbit on the couch and the first, drunken, kiss. And the ogre at the door. What happened?

Penny only goes to Leonard when all things fall apart. And most of the time it's when she takes advice from Sheldon (you would think she had learned her lesson by now.) NOT... but always in the end they show that Leonard was right all along its just that the writers choose not to acknowledge it or penny. Making Leonard looks like he doesn't support her dreams. Remember what penny said to bernedette about all the downsides of acting, that's exactly what Leonard was getting at, but poor Leonard. Penny will never admit he was right even though she knows it. Always wanting Leonard not to see her as a failure or making bad decisions. I hope he grows a pair one day and stand up to her and put Penny in her place or she is just going to keep walking all over him.

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Edited by Tonstar17
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I guess this is part of Leonard's challenge. Is what he signed up for what he really wants? If this was a drama he'd perhaps get on a train and wander in the wilderness to give everyone a chance to reflect on their true desires. But they did trains already. I think he'll just suck it up. But she wasn't nice about it. Why isn't she nice like she used to be. I know they need conflict to generate the funny. But Leonard is paying for it. I did enjoy Will Wheaton and Keven Smith. And I always knew Killer Gorilla would go cult. How could it not? Penny will go back to acting. 100% sure.

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