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walnutcowboy

Has Leonard Been Kidnapped ?

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Dude, love means ALWAYS having to say you're sorry...

 The real trick is always saying you're sorry FIRST (and mean it) !

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There are no ambiguities for me. I don't think this is the kind of finale that leaves so many questions and I don't think the kissing will be discussed much further, because there's just nothing what could make a difference. Of course, they (the writers) could always come back and say: "Well, actually he didn't kiss her... blablabla", but right now, this is not what's implied. 

 

There's NOTHING IMPLIED in the episode that the opposite happened EITHER (that Leonard was the one that INITIATED IT)  If you don't know that, guess what? THAT'S AN AMBIGUITY.

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There's NOTHING IMPLIED in the episode that the opposite happened EITHER (that Leonard was the one that INITIATED IT)  If you don't know that, guess what? THAT'S AN AMBIGUITY.

 

Why does it matter who initiated.  The point is, is that they kissed, and Leonard felt no need to tell Penny about it....for years!  He should have really told her as soon as he got back.  He literally confessed this on the way to the altar.

 

Again, I feel this whole scenario is out of character for him.  Just because he cheated on Priya (at the same time Priya was cheating on him) is not the same as him and Penny's relationship.  Penny and him were always much much closer.  He adores her.  I really can't see him kissing another girl...drunk or not.  They were in a good place in their relationship at this point.    I can see him showing photo's of Penny to everyone on the boat in a drunken haze, but not kissing someone else.   I think the writers should have explored the fact that Leonard gets upset that she doesn't take his opinion seriously and goes to Sheldon for advice as an issue to explore.  The cheating rings false to me.

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Why does it matter who initiated.  The point is, is that they kissed, and Leonard felt no need to tell Penny about it....for years!  He should have really told her as soon as he got back.  He literally confessed this on the way to the altar.

 

Again, I feel this whole scenario is out of character for him.  Just because he cheated on Priya (at the same time Priya was cheating on him) is not the same as him and Penny's relationship.  Penny and him were always much much closer.  He adores her.  I really can't see him kissing another girl...drunk or not.  They were in a good place in their relationship at this point.    I can see him showing photo's of Penny to everyone on the boat in a drunken haze, but not kissing someone else.   I think the writers should have explored the fact that Leonard gets upset that she doesn't take his opinion seriously and goes to Sheldon for advice as an issue to explore.  The cheating rings false to me.

 

But u have to remember this is the same guy.....who bought a ring made up from industrial diamonds......and hid it in a tiffany's box and lied to penny that the ring was from tiffany's............... he would probably have lied to her the entire life if Sheldon had not revealed this.....

 

mind you I have no problem with him buying a cheap ring or a ring made up from industrial diamonds as long as he is honest about it......but the lying aspect was bad......

 

this is the same guy who also wanted penny to go for acting and fail because he wanted to boost his ego........

 

So I can see him not telling penny and lying to her for 2 years pretty easily...........

Edited by vasu

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But u have to remember this is the same guy.....who bought a ring made up from industrial diamonds......and hid it in a tiffany's box and lied to penny that the ring was from tiffany's............... he would probably have lied to her the entire life if Sheldon had not revealed this.....

 

this is the same guy who also wanted penny to go for acting and fail because he wanted to boost his ego........

 

So I can see him not telling penny and lying to her for 2 years pretty easily...........

 

1.) You can't prove the tiffany's box existed.

 

2.) Circumstantial, he said something in the heat of the moment, because he was feeling bad about himself, I'm sure once he came to his senses, his answers would've been different.  People say things they don't always mean ALL THE TIME in specific situations.

Penny and him were always much much closer.  He adores her.  I really can't see him kissing another girl...drunk or not.

 

I can, UNDER SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES.  Maybe it's easier for me, because I've seen a couple that are just like L/P play out a scenario SIMILAR TO THIS (just switch the gender roles).  The only difference is she didn't keep it under wraps and told her bf after it happened.  Her boyfriend was upset but they were willing to get past it.  5 years later they are married, and his gf hasn't touched heavy liquor UNLESS her bf was in the vacinity.

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But u have to remember this is the same guy.....who bought a ring made up from industrial diamonds......and hid it in a tiffany's box and lied to penny that the ring was from tiffany's............... he would probably have lied to her the entire life if Sheldon had not revealed this.....

 

mind you I have no problem with him buying a cheap ring or a ring made up from industrial diamonds as long as he is honest about it......but the lying aspect was bad......

 

this is the same guy who also wanted penny to go for acting and fail because he wanted to boost his ego........

 

So I can see him not telling penny and lying to her for 2 years pretty easily...........

 

I really don't think that Leonard buying an industrial diamond paints him as some for of nefarious lying cheat character.  It probably was more of a pride issue for him.  Similarily, I don't think the conversation with Penny was about boosting his ego.  I think it was to show how well Penny knows how his mind works, and how she knows how to work it to get what she wants.

 

1.) You can't prove the tiffany's box existed.

 

2.) Circumstantial, he said something in the heat of the moment, because he was feeling bad about himself, I'm sure once he came to his senses, his answers would've been different.  People say things they don't always mean ALL THE TIME in specific situations.

 

I can, UNDER SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES.  Maybe it's easier for me, because I've seen a couple that are just like L/P play out a scenario SIMILAR TO THIS (just switch the gender roles).  The only difference is she didn't keep it under wraps and told her bf after it happened.  Her boyfriend was upset but they were willing to get past it.  5 years later they are married, and his gf hasn't touched heavy liquor UNLESS her bf was in the vacinity.

 

I just have trouble with your last statement.  I guess it could be true for some people.  I myself can't relate.  I've been pretty damn drunk before, and still knew that cheating was wrong.  I would like to think Leonard would too.  In my head, I can't see him doing this...

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1.) You can't prove the tiffany's box existed.

 

2.) Circumstantial, he said something in the heat of the moment, because he was feeling bad about himself, I'm sure once he came to his senses, his answers would've been different.  People say things they don't always mean ALL THE TIME in specific situations.

 

I can, UNDER SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES.  Maybe it's easier for me, because I've seen a couple that are just like L/P play out a scenario SIMILAR TO THIS (just switch the gender roles).  The only difference is she didn't keep it under wraps and told her bf after it happened.  Her boyfriend was upset but they were willing to get past it.  5 years later they are married, and his gf hasn't touched heavy liquor UNLESS her bf was in the vacinity.

 I have a problem with your first statement !

YOU can't "PROVE" that Penny wasn't born a man or that Sheldon might turn out gay...oh never mind on that Sheldon part !

You can't "PROVE" ANYTHING because it's NOT REAL !!

 All you can do is watch (and listen) to a half hour sitcom, and hopefully enjoy it.

 "Don't sweat the small stuff, and it's ALL small stuff". 

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I just have trouble with your last statement.  I guess it could be true for some people.  I myself can't relate.  I've been pretty damn drunk before, and still knew that cheating was wrong.  I would like to think Leonard would too.  In my head, I can't see him doing this...

tthomas, I so agree with this statement. I've been away from my wife on numerous occasions, been drinking on numerous occasions with, and even drunk, knew cheating was wrong, and didn't even think about it, simply because I adored my wife. Which is why I'm having such a problem with this. Leonard adored Penny, but evidently no enough to have experienced the situation of "There was Kissing". Others don't see it, can't imagine it and that's fine. But for some reason those others don't want you to see it your way, they want you to see it their way.

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I just have trouble with your last statement.  I guess it could be true for some people.  I myself can't relate. 

 

Well I couldn't understand what motivated my brother to rob the high school computer lab when he was a teenager, all just for some christmas money; he also knew that was wrong.  But he did it anyway.  I don't excuse him making the mistake, but HE NEVER made a mistake of that magnitude again, and went on to become a successful computer programmer, and married.

 

It's a big world out there, just because you can't understand a specific persons mindset doesn't mean it's not possible.

 

I've been pretty damn drunk before, and still knew that cheating was wrong.  I would like to think Leonard would too.  In my head, I can't see him doing this...

 

I'm just going to leave this quote I left over in another thread here, since it can make a good visual aide:

I don't see how this tarnishes Leonard's character anymore than it does 
.  In some ways that kiss wasn't as allegedly terrible as Leonard's was with the girl (again we don't have a specific measure on THIS); but in other ways this kiss allegedly WAS WORSE.  Carla was not only A ; but was also his BEST FRIENDS WIFE.

 

He was also drunk, and SHOULD'VE known better, but he kissed her back after she kissed first.  But he also while in his drunken state, knew he screwed up there.  But didn't want to tell his best friend Turk (Carla's husband) about what happened, though Carla did; when Turk said "we now have no secrets between us".

 

But despite all that fans of Scrubs were able to forgive J.D. & Carla for having a moment of weakness.  So why EXACTLY am I supposed to believe Leonard will be tainted for the rest of the show for having a moment of weakness himself?  Again I'm more mad that he didn't come clean earlier, but I'd be even MORE FURIOUS if he DIDN'T fess up when Penny brought up having no secrets or regrets.

 

simply because I adored my wife. Which is why I'm having such a problem with this. Leonard adored Penny, but evidently no enough to have experienced the situation of "There was Kissing". 

 

So it's impossible for any other man on this planet to adore a woman, while at the same time having a moment of weakness?  I don't feel life is that RIDICULOUSLY SIMPLE.

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I don't feel life is that RIDICULOUSLY SIMPLE.

I'm not sure how much more hypocritical a post can get after this was in the same post:

It's a big world out there, just because you can't understand a specific persons mindset doesn't mean it's not possible.

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I'm not sure how much more hypocritical a post can get after this was in the same post:

It's a big world out there, just because you can't understand a specific persons mindset doesn't mean it's not possible.

 

Your argument about not being able to understand how Leonard could do what he did, SEEMS like it boils down to you seeing yourself and your wife in Leonard and Penny's relationship.

 

Why do you think Leonard is going to react to a situation like this the same way you do?  If I am having a hard time seeing it through your eyes, I'm at least TRYING to understand.

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Your argument about not being able to understand how Leonard could do what he did, SEEMS like it boils down to you seeing yourself and your wife in Leonard and Penny's relationship.

Is there something wrong with that? That's why I've identified with them since the beginning. That's why I cared so much about the couple, if it wasn't that way, I wouldn't care about them. The actions they have ascribed to him, have simply caused me to question as to whether I will care as much about them. I'm not sure why you have to question how I feel about this.

 

Why do you think Leonard is going to react to a situation like this the same way you do?

I expected him to react a certain way. That why I liked him and the couple. If he isn't going to act the way, I feel, they have portrayed him since the beginning of the show, I'm not sure why you think I'm required to like it or react to the situation as you do.

 

If I am having a hard time seeing it through your eyes,

Have you ever been cheated on? It makes you question your self worth, and it utterly devastating. Anyone who has gone through it, and puts someone else through it, is pretty low in my opinion.

 

I'm at least TRYING to understand.

Then don't. I really don't care if you understand my point or not, and, in fact, I don't understand why you even need to. I you feel like you can forgive him, like you can understand, fine with me, enjoy the show, and how they portray him. I won't tell you how you should feel about it. But, if it makes you feel better, feel free to continue to tell me how I should feel, or how I should look at it, even though I don't care how you want to feel about it.

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Is there something wrong with that? 

 

I simply think it's a tad silly to expect a character to react the same way you do, JUST BECAUSE it's what you have done in that situation.  And NOT accept that the character is NOT YOU. And god forbid they might POSSIBLY do something differently than you do in a situation.

 

The actions they have ascribed to him, have simply caused me to question as to whether I will care as much about them. I'm not sure why you have to question how I feel about this.

 

What was the difference with Priya, because Priya wasn't Penny (Leonard's one and only) it was forgiveable?  :icon_rolleyes:

 

I'm not sure why you think I'm required to like it or react to the situation as you do.

 

So why do you think I or anyone else am not going to question an opinion that sounds questionable (at least IMO) ON A FORUM?

 

Have you ever been cheated on? It makes you question your self worth, and it utterly devastating.

 

YES I HAVE.  Twice in fact, yeah it sucks (one slept with someone else, the other went back to their previous ex).  But just because the two women who not only cheated on me but didn't face up to their own responsibility, doesn't mean I should judge ALL SINGLE WOMEN out there in the same light.  It's disrespectful to them for the very reason that I don't know whether they have done what my ex's did.  But I would try my damnedest to give them some benefit of the doubt, and not try to write them off right away if I was in Penny's situation.

 

 

Anyone who has gone through it, and puts someone else through it, is pretty low in my opinion.

 

So why did you not give up on Leonard after The Good Guy Fluctuation?

 

 

Then don't. I really don't care if you understand my point or not, and, in fact, I don't understand why you even need to.

 

For the same reason you watch the show.  You & I don't NEED it to live, but we watch it anyway.  Just like I don't need to come here and talk about the show, but I enjoy it anyways.  I also enjoy trying to understand differing opinions, even if it's not an opinion I agree with, I still think it's useful to understand differing viewpoints in this world.

 

But, if it makes you feel better, feel free to continue to tell me how I should feel, or how I should look at it,

 

There's a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE in someone CHALLENGING your viewpoint/opinion, and someone saying "YOU HAVE TO see the show this way".

 

even though I don't care how you want to feel about it.

 

Then why bother responding then?

Edited by meka3000

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I can, UNDER SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES.  Maybe it's easier for me, because I've seen a couple that are just like L/P play out a scenario SIMILAR TO THIS (just switch the gender roles).  The only difference is she didn't keep it under wraps and told her bf after it happened.  Her boyfriend was upset but they were willing to get past it.  5 years later they are married, and his gf hasn't touched heavy liquor UNLESS her bf was in the vacinity.

 

Yeah, this isn't a positive scenario or one that I want to see Leonard and Penny emulate. These two obviously went into the marriage without trust, he for her or her for herself. Not surprising, that's what infidelity does. Seems like he has to treat her like a child if she, as a grown adult, can't be in the vicinity of something as commonplace as alcohol without his supervision. 

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Yeah, this isn't a positive scenario or one that I want to see Leonard and Penny emulate. These two obviously went into the marriage without trust, he for her or her for herself. Not surprising, that's what infidelity does. Seems like he has to treat her like a child if she, as a grown adult, can't be in the vicinity of something as commonplace as alcohol without his supervision. 

 

Excuse me?  Your making that judgement based on HOW MUCH you know about them? Next to nothing?  Her not drinking heavily in front of him UNLESS it's with him, was HER DECISION, he didn't force her to do this. You know nothing about how much one or the other trust each other. She felt that was something she should do to make up for ONE DRUNKEN MISTAKE in her eyes because she felt guilty about it.  Her now husband didn't force her to do ANYTHING in that regard.

Edited by meka3000

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I don't want here to take sides wether or not Leonard cheated on penny or werther or not it would have been better to keep the kiss secret. I think every one has his/her own sensibility and on such matters everyone has to follow his/her beliefs. What surprises me is that the writers seem to understimate the "bad" light that such a cliffhanger had put all around one of the main characters. It was unnecessary, out of character (as far as Leonard's love for penny goes...) and it may alienate some fans from Lenny. There have been plenty of reasons to delay the wedding (i can't think any other reason to do such a thing apart it) which are much more consistent with Leonard's features and with the general plot of s8.

My guess is that, as soon the writers realize that this kiss may be too much for many fans, in s9 all this mess will be undone(i can't imagine how, but it will)!

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What surprises me is that the writers seem to understimate the "bad" light that such a cliffhanger had put all around one of the main characters. It was unnecessary, out of character (as far as Leonard's love for penny goes...) and it may alienate some fans from Lenny. 

 

And last years cliffhanger didn't?  Also that seems to vary for different people.  Some of the sites I've been to such as AV Club, IGN; aren't up in arms over the revelation like people some people seem to be here.  Does that make those reviewers wrong?

 

I don't think what information they gave us has been out of character for Leonard.  As if it's impossible for him to have a moment of weakness.  :icon_rolleyes:

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And last years cliffhanger didn't? Also that seems to vary for different people. Some of the sites I've been to such as AV Club, IGN; aren't up in arms over the revelation like people some people seem to be here. Does that make those reviewers wrong?

I don't think what information they gave us has been out of character for Leonard. As if it's impossible for him to have a moment of weakness. :icon_rolleyes:

But it's only been one week since the finale. I predict (again) this is going to be just like the Raj/Penny cliffhanger of season 4. Lenny fans were pretty upset with that cliffhanger as well and to "fix it" we find out that "oh, they didn't actually have sex because Raj finished too soon while Penny was helping him put on the condom."

I see this as the same way. They wanted a cliffhanger and for some fucked up reason came up with this "brilliant" idea. If the fan reaction THROUGHOUT THE SUMMER is mostly negative and fans stop rooting for one of their "cash cow" couples, we're going to find out that "oh, Leonard didn't really cheat." and we'll find out one of a bunch of "fix it" scenarios.

Someone on here mentioned it being a dream Penny has while she's sleeping in the car on their way to Vegas. And they decide not to marry once they get there because of a bad omen or something.

Another "fix it" scenario....Leonard lied about the entire kiss because he got second thoughts of a Vegas wedding while in the car because of her first marriage to Zach and figured making something up to "sabotage" it would be better.

A third....the kiss really did happen but we find out more details so that it wasn't Leonards fault at all. She lunged herself at him and over powered him in his drunk state.

Or, the woman looks so much like Penny and he was so drunk he actually thought it WAS Penny until he tasted the cigarettes on her breath and felt embarrassed by it and kept it from her all this time.

I'm not that big of a Lenny fan but even I find this whole thing with the kiss incredibly out of character for Leonard. Since the PILOT, he has done nothing but adored and worshipped her and he suddenly does this to PENNY of all people?

Yeah, he did it to Priya but he didn't love her. Not even close to how he loves Penny. And none of the fans liked that "man stealing bitch" anyway...

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Yeah, he did it to Priya but he didn't love her. Not even close to how he loves Penny. And none of the fans liked that "man stealing bitch" anyway...

 

It could also be viewed as Alice is his one mistake and was forgiven for it.  This one makes him a serial cheater, so the question then becomes, when is going to do it again? Unless, of course, they "fix" it.

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It could also be viewed as Alice is his one mistake and was forgiven for it. This one makes him a serial cheater, so the question then becomes, when is going to do it again? Unless, of course, they "fix" it.

Exactly! Alice was supposed to be his one mistake and against someone the fans didn't even like.

This kiss just doesn't make any sense at all!! From everything we've been shown and told about Leonard in the last 8 years and top it off with the tag scene to that Hawking trip when he shows the movie..."That's my girlfriend! I swear to God!"

OUT OF CHARACTER, writers!! Seriously, you guys can do better than this utter BS!! And again, THIS is coming from someone who's not that big of a Lenny fan....

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Well...last year cliffhanger was built better, you could see it coming watching the episode (and some of the previous ones). in this sense it was not out of character. By the way, it was fixed in 8.1 and never mentioned again, as the raj/penny cliffhanger was...and as also this one i expext to be

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Leonard can never be trusted again.... as simple as that..........

 

once twice a cheater...always a cheater

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