Ship Zone [Spoilers] Shamy: Season 9

[koops]

14 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

I understand that lots of people saw Sheldon and Amy in s4/5 as friends, rather than lovers, but I never did. A friendship that intense and consuming can never be 'just' friendship (and what is so 'just' about 'just' friends anyway?). I am one of the people who thought that Sheldon and amy had something unique and magical, almost BECAUSE their 'just' friendship looked so like the first throes of a love affair, in everything but in the obvious trappings.

Ha! Yes!!! I forgot to mention this. I never saw Shamy's relationship as a friendship pure and simple either. Indeed, what I adored about S4 was that despite the mantra of "She's a girl, who's a friend, but not my girlfriend" and "I find the concept of romantic love an unnecessary human construct", Sheldon, Amy and everyone around them always treated their relationship as if it were a "real" pair-bond, no less than Lenny or Howard and Bernadette's both in the way they talked about it and in the way they acted. In fact, the whole "they think our relationship is a joke" because it wasn't sexual, was very much a product of S6. Their friends never treated it as a joke before (they "broke up" in Zazzy and their friends treated that breakup almost with more worry, care and respect than they did the real one this season!). What was delightful was that it was literally a romantic relationship in everything but name. And I loved to watch them fall for each other and crush on each other (oh, late S4, how I love thee!) and engage in 'eye-coitus' too, just as I adored every single one of their milestones, bar none. Anyway, I'm getting carried away but... yes. These two, for all intents and purposes, were never "just friends" in my mind.

But I think that, regardless, we are all on the same page about... well, wanting to have them both on the same page from here on  

Edited December 7, 2015 by koops

[camelliayao]

And while we're on the subject of change, can they give Amy something more like in 9.10 and 9.11 to wear from now on? No need to expose more skin, just some slightly cuter cardigan and slightly curly hair would be enough.

I'm not saying Amy wasn't pretty before, but compared with the old Amy's style, I think most people would find her clothes in 9.11 prettier. And it's not OOC for Amy to dress up more for Sheldon (She did mention not want to change her style for a man, but that was during their break up). It's normal for girls to want to look great in front of their boyfriends, especially for someone who's as romantic as Amy. And although Sheldon isn't into looks, he still has the ability to tell Amy looks pretty in her prom dress, doesn't he?

And sometimes I think it's almost ridiculous that Amy wears so many layers sitting in the same room with her friends who only wear T-shirts. I mean doesn't she get hot?

26 minutes ago, koops said:

Well, that depends on what kind of relationship they're writing. While I'm in no way advocating that Sheldon and Amy should have kept a non-sexual relationship or non-physical relationship, and I'm happy to see them explore those aspects with each other and find it interesting, there's no just one way to have a relationship. I'm sure there are people out there for whom falling in love does not necessarily imply physical intimacy or "romance" in the most traditional sense. Granted, I'm probably talking about a minority, but I wouldn't say that there's only one natural expression of being in love and there are only two possibilities: friends or conventional relationship. Or that if Amy's behavior hadn't changed their relationship wouldn't have gone anywhere. They could have still developed deeper and deeper feelings through the years in tons of different ways. I personally have always been quite open to different possibilities for them, so long as they're happy and on the same page: they could have ended the show as platonic roommates never having started a proper romantic relationship, or end it with 2 kids and a dog (or turtle, in their case), but as long as it's written in a quirky and adorkable way, I am ok with anything. But the keyword for me is quirky and adorkable.

Having said that, the story is that yes, Amy has grown to want certain things (and so has Sheldon, albeit at a slower pace) and what I do completely agree on though is that it would make absolutely no sense to go through all this heartbreak and drama of a breakup only to go back to Amy wanting more and Sheldon dragging his feet again, just this time, say, it's about how often to have sex or stuff like that. THAT stuff definitely needs to change. But, again, when I talk about old school Shamy, I am not talking about wanting the romantic part of their relationship to go back to the push-and-pull dynamic, I'm talking about their intellectual connection and camaraderie that attracted me to them. To me the most important thing is that they are on the same page again and that they are quirky and adorkable together. That's probably because I didn't get into their relationship with any specific romantic expectations, but because I like them being weirdos together (and I don't think there's any other pairing on this show that's as quirky and weird as these two can get - even as friends they were a totally different ballgame) and that's what I mean when I say I want to see that again. 

 

Yeah I guess I want to see them weird together as a cute couple not weird together as two friends with one who wants more and the other's just indifferent.  I don't think that's what Amy wants (Now maybe that's not even what Sheldon wants).

 

Edited December 7, 2015 by camelliayao

[nickelette424]

48 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

While I agree with most parts of your post, I do think it's necessary that they alter Amy's behavior to make her want romance and more intimacy with Sheldon. And it's natural. That's just people who fall more and more in love do. They want more from their partners.

One of the reasons that the old school Shamy can get along very well without all the "crap" is because they were really just friends back then (even after they were officially a couple there was a long time that they still behavior like friends)  As friends there's no need to develop more other than admiration towards one another. But they can't always be friends, at least I don't want them to. If it wasn't because of Amy's behavior change, their relationship probably would never go anywhere. That's why I like Shamy in season 8 more. Like in the fort episode, they do weird stuff together, and I can tell they love each other very easily. 

Yes we don't need to see them act like a normal couple. But this break up is supposed to make them change, especially Sheldon. He can't just have his eiphany in two episodes and then "since we've gotten over with the intimacy part, let's go back to normal". If that happens, this break up is truly a waste of time. So now will they still only kiss on date nights? How about the relationship agreement? Is she still a little afraid to touch him because he doesn't like that? 

And to those old school Shamy moments where they interact like they're nothing more than friends, No, thank you. I don't want them back. Or at least I want a 2.0 version of them. If I want to see friendship, I'll go see Leonard and Sheldon. I want my Shamy to finally be like a weird "couple" and I want see their love in every moment they're together. Not two weird friends who once in a season express their love.

Well,  first off,  Sheldon and Amy were never just friends.   One if the running jokes in S4 was that Sheldon refused to call her his "girlfriend" and then referred to the pairing as a "relationship" never a friendship.  I love how in Desperation he tells Leonard once again that she is not his "girlfriend" and then proceeds to suggest that Leonard is jealous that he has a functioning and satisfying relationship with a female and offered up other examples of characters, who too, had girlfriends.  

What was different in old school Shamy is that instead of physical things,  such as kissing, sex etc., turning them on, it was each other's intellect and other personality quirks.  Those two seriously got off on that.  Intimacy comes in different forms and these two have been intimate since the beginning.  And I love that Mayim has made that point multiple times lately.    But, that is what people want to see again.   And it would be really great if these old school turn ons and this new found physical intimacy coexist.  Like Sheldon starts pontificating and Amy can't help herself and grabs and kisses him.  Or Sheldon is so turned on by doing one of their weird social experiments on their friends that it culminates with him dragging her to the bedroom.   That could be a new way to do old school Shamy. 

[mirs1]

I also saw their relationship always like a "love affair" (whatever this means) rather than a "friendship" (whatever this means). And I think also Sheldon and Amy in their own way did, Sheldon when referring to Amy, apart from the stubborn "a girl who's my friend, not my girlfriend", always used terms that were more suited for a love interest than for a friend. The main difference is that in Season 4-5 they were on the same page, they treated each other as equals and nobody was forcing the other to do or not to do anything. I found that the "problems" started when they admitted explicitly their feelings. He asked her to be "officially" his girlfriend and at that point (between the end of Season 5 and the beginning of Season 6) Amy started to want all those romantic things she never declared she wanted. The more he was asked to fit the model of the good boyfriend the more he resisted and treated her badly. I don't know, it seemed to me he was trying with all his strength to resist and to hold on to his position, and the same thing went for Amy. There were of course sweet moments (D&D is my best part of this phase of their relationship) but for me it was kind of a cold war... Season 8 was better in this regard, there was still resistance on some occasions from Sheldon's part, but Amy was not so pushing anymore, so she got less resistance. The point was that, as it turned out in the finale, she wasn't pushing because she had lost all those expectations (the legitimate ones as well as the more unrealistic ones) but maybe because she was scared he still was at flight risk, so at some point she just exploded (that is my take at least on her breaking up over a TV show...) The best part of the two episodes we will see in few days is that for the first time Amy has for real no expectations. She is not pushing anymore to have Sheldon back, since she believes he is over her, and Sheldon is free to express what he really feels, and is his own terms (which turn out to be really weirdly romantic). She isn't at all pushing for physical intimacy, and I think that at the time of 9.11 it is not her main concern, she is just happy to have him back, and Sheldon is free to decide by himself he is ready and to plan the perfect night. In this sense for me the "old times" are coming back, They are in the same situation of Season 4-5, both free to express themselves. They both have grown, and their relationship has grown, so I don't expect them to be just pals hanging around, there's so much in their present to explore for them, but I hope that they keep this freedom of expressing themselves and their feelings.

[MAH_B]

Reflecting on all these upcoming amazing leaps forward for Sheldon and Amy has caused me to reflect back on S9, and even back in to S8. And I have to say, I'm so impressed by the character development of this couple, but especially Sheldon. When looking at the past two or three seasons altogether, the wonderful steps forward in 9.10 and 9.11 are (IMO) completely in line with the (at times painfully incremental) character growth we've seen from Sheldon.

Case in point, last night I was re-watching The Colonization Application (8.17, where Sheldon applies to go to Mars) and I was shocked to see (or re-see, I guess) the little ways in which he showed Amy he cared. He reached for her hand pre-turtle announcement. When she got upset, he said "Amy, I really don't understand what is happening here," and meant it. He didn't understand why she was upset, but he was trying (hard) to hear her and understand what she was feeling. Then, when she stormed out, he followed her, still fighting to understand and make it right. He selflessly asked her if she wanted him to rescind his application. Then, after he invited her to also apply to Mars, when she hugs him, he kind of smiles, rests his chin on her head, and wraps his arms around her. 

Not gonna lie, I rewound it a few times to watch it over and over. It was just so sweet. I feel like we really saw Sheldon, in that moment, struggling to understand what she needed and to give it to her. And, of course, to demonstrate how much she meant to him. It's like the PG version of what we're about to see!!

I'm amazed by the whole character arc and this episode really gave me lots of feels, which I don't remember having the first time around. 

[camelliayao]

9 minutes ago, nickelette424 said:

Well,  first off,  Sheldon and Amy were never just friends.   One if the running jokes in S4 was that Sheldon refused to call her his "girlfriend" and then referred to the pairing as a "relationship" never a friendship.  I love how in Desperation he tells Leonard once again that she is not his "girlfriend" and then proceeds to suggest that Leonard is jealous that he has a functioning and satisfying relationship with a female and offered up other examples of characters, who too, had girlfriends.  

What was different in old school Shamy is that instead of physical things,  such as kissing, sex etc., turning them on, it was each other's intellect and other personality quirks.  Those two seriously got off on that.  Intimacy comes in different forms and these two have been intimate since the beginning.  And I love that Mayim has made that point multiple times lately.    But, that is what people want to see again.   And it would be really great if these old school turn ons and this new found physical intimacy coexist.  Like Sheldon starts pontificating and Amy can't help herself and grabs and kisses him.  Or Sheldon is so turned on by doing one of their weird social experiments on their friends that it culminates with him dragging her to the bedroom.   That could be a new way to do old school Shamy. 

I'm sorry but the first part I think you're analyzing too much... To me he really did think their friendship were just friends back in season 4.

And the second part, yes that's what I meant but Shamy 2.0 version.

[Soopysue]

20 minutes ago, nickelette424 said:

Well,  first off,  Sheldon and Amy were never just friends.   One if the running jokes in S4 was that Sheldon refused to call her his "girlfriend" and then referred to the pairing as a "relationship" never a friendship.  I love how in Desperation he tells Leonard once again that she is not his "girlfriend" and then proceeds to suggest that Leonard is jealous that he has a functioning and satisfying relationship with a female and offered up other examples of characters, who too, had girlfriends.  

What was different in old school Shamy is that instead of physical things,  such as kissing, sex etc., turning them on, it was each other's intellect and other personality quirks.  Those two seriously got off on that.  Intimacy comes in different forms and these two have been intimate since the beginning.  And I love that Mayim has made that point multiple times lately.    But, that is what people want to see again.   And it would be really great if these old school turn ons and this new found physical intimacy coexist.  Like Sheldon starts pontificating and Amy can't help herself and grabs and kisses him.  Or Sheldon is so turned on by doing one of their weird social experiments on their friends that it culminates with him dragging her to the bedroom.   That could be a new way to do old school Shamy. 

I love the idea of the old school turn ons and new physical intimacy working together !!! It would be amazing and very much them , good call ! 

[MAH_B]

1 hour ago, bluebird said:

I God how much I love that scene! It's pure Shamy.

I do agree with you guys that next we need some classic Shamy cuteness, but with a little something that shows that their relationship has improved due the break up. What I don't want to see is frustrated Amy (occasional eye rolling with a loving smile is totally fine) and indifferent Sheldon. Imo this break up had a greater purpose and it wasn't created just for the drama. They had some issues in their relationship: Amy wanting more traditional kind of romance and trying to change him, Sheldon not putting Amy first and having commitment issues, the lack of physical intimacy (which would've been fine if that's what they both wanted). Now it seems like the writers managed to handle all these issues during this season. Both of them really learned the value of each other and their relationship during the break up. That's why I don't see them taking steps back now.

And when it comes to coitus, I'm really fine with however they'll fit it into their relationship, as long as they are on the same page with it. Once a year, once a week, everyday, scheduled, not scheduled, I'll take it all if both of them are fine with the arrangements. Although I really like the idea presented here that they'll try to schedule it but fail terribly!

They are always going to be a little awkward and quirky and I don't want that to change. They are still going to make mistakes and argue like any other couple. Sheldon will always be Sheldon and Amy has her own quirks as well. What I do think they learned from this break up is that they only want to be with each other, not alone nor with anyone else. They will work trough anything that comes along, because they never want to lose one another again. Once was more than enough. 

What I'm really trying to say is that I think (and hope) we'll see more of "Sheldon and Amy against the world"  than "Sheldon and Amy against each other" from now on. And that's how it's supposed to be.

TOTALLY agree with you, especially the bolded part. Love the Shamy "against the world" idea!

[camelliayao]

And Amy is not like us who have gif sets and scripts to analyze everything that happens between her and Sheldon.

So she doesn't know Sheldon pursed before her kiss which shows he likes her. She doesn't get to know what Sheldon said in the shopping mall. She doesn't know Sheldon may secrectly considers her more than "just friends" even back in season 4. If they still act the exact same way before, I think Amy will get tired again eventually.

So Shamy 2.0? Yes. Old school Shamy with little cute love confessions and small kisses? Yes. Old school Shamy where they act like just friends but some of us may know deeeeeeep down they love each other yet to others they really are just friends? I hope not.

The point is old school Shamy may be good enough for us, for Sheldon, but not enough for Amy.

Edited December 7, 2015 by camelliayao

[nickelette424]

35 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

I'm sorry but the first part I think you're analyzing too much... To me he really did think their friendship were just friends back in season 4.

And the second part, yes that's what I meant but Shamy 2.0 version.

Yet, he never referred to it as a friendship and always compared it to other romantic relationships.  That was the joke.  That was why it was so funny that refused to call her his girlfriend.  He argued the semantics of it all, yet the actions said differently.  And like someone else said,  I believe koops,  everyone treated them as such.   The scene I talked about was one example.   It happened all throughout S4.

23 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

And Amy is not like us who have gif sets and scripts to analyze everything that happens between her and Sheldon.

So she doesn't know Sheldon pursed before her kiss which shows he likes her. She doesn't get to know what Sheldon said in the shopping mall. She doesn't know Sheldon may secrectly considers her more than "just friends" even back in season 4. If they still act the exact same way before, I think Amy will get tired again eventually.

So Shamy 2.0? Yes. Old school Shamy with little cute love confessions and small kisses? Yes. Old school Shamy where they act like just friends but some of us may know deeeeeeep down they love each other yet to others they really are just friends? I hope not.

The point is old school Shamy may be good enough for us, for Sheldon, but not enough for Amy.

I think you and I have a didn't different idea of what old school Shamy is.   Old school Shamy isn't have Amy tired of Sheldon at all.   They were in the exact same page and were shown happy and having fun together,  without being at odds.  Season 6 and 7 were not old school.   Everyone just wants them to go back to having fun with each other coupled with this new found element to their relationship. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by nickelette424

[birdy]

27 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

I'm sorry but the first part I think you're analyzing too much... To me he really did think their friendship were just friends back in season 4.

And the second part, yes that's what I meant but Shamy 2.0 version.

I have to disagree on that. I don't think he ever treated their relationship the same way he treats his friendships. Not even in season 4. He didn't want or need new friends. He was perfectly fine with the ones he had. There wasn't really any reason why he would've stayed and offered her that hot beverage in the first place if there wasn't something about her that intrigued him, something more than just a friendship. But this is Sheldon and he had always thought that romantic relationships are unnecessary. To me it was obvious that he was interested in Amy more than just as a friend (the cats, she's not for you, just to mention few moments), but he couldn't admit it to himself. And by that I mean he had never felt like that about anyone so he really didn't know how to deal with it. It was all new territory for him. Jim said back then that he thinks Sheldon isn't really sure why he wants/needs Amy in her life, but that he does know he prefers to have her in his life than not to have. It took Amy going out on a date with another person for him to finally being able to admit that what they actually had, was indeed a relationship. And that that's what he wants too. He said that nothing will change between them except the fact that they can finally call themselves as boyfriend and girlfriend. The way I took it, was that they already were in a relationship and that now he was finally ready to admit it to himself and to her. 

And it's true that he always used the term relationship rather than friendship. I do think it matters. 

[Gbb]

I never cared much for moonlit skies
I never wink back at fireflies
But now that the stars are in your eyes
I'm beginning to see the light

I never went in for afterglow
Or candlelight on the mistletoe
But now when you turn the lamp down low
I'm beginning to see the light

Used to ramble through the park
Shadow boxing in the dark
Then you came and caused a spark
That's a four-alarm fire, now

I never made love by lantern shine
I never saw rainbows in my wine
But now that your lips are burning mine
I'm beginning to see the light

Now that the stars are in your eyes
I'm beginning to see the light
Now when you turn the lamp down low
I'm beginning to see the light

 

 

[camelliayao]

25 minutes ago, nickelette424 said:

Yet, he never referred to it as a friendship and always compared it to other romantic relationships.  That was the joke.  That was why it was so funny that refused to call her his girlfriend.  He argued the semantics of it all, yet the actions said differently.  And like someone else said,  I believe koops,  everyone treated them as such.   The scene I talked about was one example.   It happened all throughout S4.

I think you and I have a didn't different idea of what old school Shamy is.   Old school Shamy isn't have Amy tired of Sheldon at all.   They were in the exact same page and were shown happy and having fun together,  without being at odds.  Season 6 and 7 were not old school.   Everyone just wants them to go back to having fun with each other coupled with this new found element to their relationship. 

The reason I think they can have fun together in season 4 and 5 is because they are friends or maybe more than friends but they are not in love back then. Amy didn't want more so they're on the "exact same page".

The point is I don't think they can ever go back to the old school Shamy again. They are now in love. Amy wants more and if Sheldon can't give more, they are back in season 6 and season 7 Shamy, or worse season 9 Episode 1 to 9 Shamy. If Sheldon can give more, they are Shamy 2.0, which I hope they'll be. They have to be on the "new same page" for the relationship to work again.

Edited December 7, 2015 by camelliayao

[jlove]

2 hours ago, koops said:

I wouldn't say Sheldon just refused to accommodate her, out of spite especially. Yes, he was a bit of a pain in the neck sometimes, and undoubtedly self-centered, but I think it's unfair to say he didn't care at all, because he often did include things in his routine and relationship that he would have never intentionally come up with, and that was from early on. He put on suits to go on fancy dates, they added several things to the RA that were mentioned through the years that were most likely Amy's idea than his (like the sing-alongs, the anniversary protocol, the pet names, etc.). And the fact that the RA itself is something Amy has a say in means a lot, because he doesn't allow that kind of power to Leonard in their Roommate Agreement. I think the writers went rather heavy handed both on Amy wanting so much traditional romance all at once (that was literally an overnight addition from the S5 finale to the S6 premiere - it was the time I started watching the show live because I got hooked on Amy/Shamy and I was so confused by that premiere, it was like I was watching a different couple!) and on Sheldon suddenly playing aloof and disinterested, whereas before he was swooning at everything that came out of her mouth, and putting the two together made the whole thing come across as very unbalanced. I missed Sheldon swooning and adoring her the way he used to earlier on, rather than taking her for granted and dismissing her, but I also missed Amy finding him the best boyfriend ever and loving his quirks as often as she used to early on instead of rolling her eyes and complaining about all the things he did not do right. 

But I think in a sense, just as it makes sense for Amy to be exposed to all these new things and wanting to try them, I think it makes sense for Sheldon to kick back against stuff that he feels he's being pushed into, which is why he might have become more resistant later on as opposed to when she wasn't expecting anything from him and so he was being a good boyfriend to her without even trying. It kind of ties in with what I said earlier this week: the aquarium ep to me showed that Amy realized that what really matters for her happiness is not so much the romance but to have that connection she only has with Sheldon and that when she doesn't push him to do or say what she expects him to do or say, he does so on his own; and the earworm ep showed that Sheldon realized that some of that hippy dippy romance stuff that Amy started wanting from him and he eschewed in the past were actually things he missed and wanted back and that's what made him decide that being platonic friends wasn't enough for him and he wanted her back. I really think the Trilogy wrapped things up in a satisfactory way that patched up all those issues, and I hope that it wasn't just the characters realizing all this, but the writers too. Now that they've gone through all these experiences, I hope they can take the best of both worlds (nerdy and affectionate) and leave the rest behind.

I don't believe that Sheldon was acting out during seasons 6 and 7 out of spite either.  I also don't believe for a minute that these two were ever "just friends," no matter what they themselves called it, and I believe they realize it now as well.  Case in point, as I said some time ago: they celebrated their 5th anniversary in May.  They consider their anniversary to be the day they met, not the date of The Flaming Spitoon Acquisition, a year and a half later.  Even when they were just friends, they were never just friends.

I don't believe either of them ever intended to fall in love with each other, or anyone at all for that matter.  But I think by Season 6 they were not only both very much in love (I think that happened very early), but had both realized it.  I think Amy consciously realized she was in love, ergo, she wanted "all the things that people in love do and have."  End of story.  We know that Amy had actually wanted all the trappings of "normal" but just never got them ("I wish I could tell my 13 year old self if DOES get better" -  that statement is in 5.01.)  As soon as they were available to her she embraced girlfriends, shopping dates, sleepovers, a social group, etc.  She expected love to be no different when it came.

I think Sheldon probably realized he was in love at about the same time, but in his case I think it was entirely subconscious.  Unlike Amy he had never sought all the changes that had thusfar happened in his life.  He didn't want friends; his closeness with Leonard, Raj and Howard was not something he initially welcomed.  He didn't want a comfy apartment full of people hanging out together.  He didn't want to like Penny.  And he definitely didn't want to fall in love.  I think at the same time Amy was drawing closer wanting more because of her feelings, his subconscious had him pulling back, freaking out over his feelings, which was just an awful dynamic to witness.  I think Sheldon has been waging an internal war for quite a while.  He finally admitted he was "quite fond of Amy" but didn't want to think about what that really meant.  He knew he wanted more than a friendship, but resented that fact because that's not who he ever wanted to be.  He alternately tried to rationalize it away (I don't need this nonsense Amy is pushing, see we're fine without it and she should see that too) AND consicously tried change, working on some of his issues so he *could* be closer to her ("I'm working on it" when Penny asked him about a physical relationship in The Cooper-Kripke Inversion.)   Even the knowledge that he WANTED to change some things surely scared him to death and made him pull back while simultaneously pushing forward.  Thus we get a man who can admit "for me what we have is extrememly intimate" and have D&D sex, while at the same time griping about handholding.  Then, he enjoyed kissing her and added it to their relationship, while continuing to roll his eyes about other physical activities.  He ignored all his friends' assertions that he should talk to Amy before applying to go to Mars, but was ready to propose to her 7 weeks later.  He's been fighting this, and fighting for this, all along.

I said it in one of my fics, but it is what I really believe:

The two of them had both changed so much…hers had been mostly effortless, dreams she had held since childhood being fulfilled, allowing her to open herself up and experience things she had wanted all along, things she had only been convinced she wouldn't have. Girlfriends to hang out with, a social group, a boyfriend, a physical relationship, love. Her changes had been met with joy inside her as she saw her 13 year old self's desires becoming reality. Sheldon's changes, however, had been hard-fought. He appeared not to have ever dreamed of the things he had now, had actively tried to avoid even friendships, let alone love. Yet when it came he opened up to it, however painfully, slowly, awkwardly. Their union, first their friendship, then their love, had turned her into someone she had always dreamed of becoming, while it had turned Sheldon into someone he had always feared becoming. No wonder he had had a more difficult time arriving there than she had, but walked through it with her, he had indeed.

 

Edited December 7, 2015 by jlove

[camelliayao]

19 minutes ago, bluebird said:

I have to disagree on that. I don't think he ever treated their relationship the same way he treats his friendships. Not even in season 4. He didn't want or need new friends. He was perfectly fine with the ones he had. There wasn't really any reason why he would've stayed and offered her that hot beverage in the first place if there wasn't something about her that intrigued him, something more than just a friendship. But this is Sheldon and he had always thought that romantic relationships are unnecessary. To me it was obvious that he was interested in Amy more than just as a friend (the cats, she's not for you, just to mention few moments), but he couldn't admit it to himself. And by that I mean he had never felt like that about anyone so he really didn't know how to deal with it. It was all new territory for him. Jim said back then that he thinks Sheldon isn't really sure why he wants/needs Amy in her life, but that he does know he prefers to have her in his life than not to have. It took Amy going out on a date with another person for him to finally being able to admit that what they actually had, was indeed a relationship. And that that's what he wants too. He said that nothing will change between them except the fact that they can finally call themselves as boyfriend and girlfriend. The way I took it, was that they already were in a relationship and that now he was finally ready to admit it to himself and to her. 

And it's true that he always used the term relationship rather than friendship. I do think it matters. 

Maybe I chose my words poorly. Yes maybe Amy was more than a friend to him back then but I think the feelings he had for her were admiration, the need to possess her exclusively rather than adoration.

Edited December 7, 2015 by camelliayao

[nickelette424]

17 minutes ago, jlove said:

I don't believe that Sheldon was acting out during seasons 6 and 7 out of spite either.  I also don't believe for a minute that these two were ever "just friends," no matter what they themselves called it, and I believe they realize it now as well.  Case in point, as I said some time ago: they celebrated their 5th anniversary in May.  They consider their anniversary to be the day they met, not the date of The Flaming Spitoon Acquisition, a year and a half later.  Even when they were just friends, they were never just friends.

I don't believe either of them ever intended to fall in love with each other, or anyone at all for that matter.  But I think by Season 6 they were not only both very much in love (I think that happened very early), but had both realized it.  I think Amy consciously realized she was in love, ergo, she wanted "all the things that people in love do and have."  End of story.  We know that Amy had actually wanted all the trappings of "normal" but just never got them ("I wish I could tell my 13 year old self if DOES get better" -  that statement is in 5.01.)  As soon as they were available to her she embraced girlfriends, shopping dates, sleepovers, a social group, etc.  She expected love to be no different when it came.

I think Sheldon probably realized he was in love at about the same time, but in his case I think it was entirely subconscious.  Unlike Amy he had never sought all the changes that had thusfar happened in his life.  He didn't want friends; his closeness with Leonard, Raj and Howard was not something he initially welcomed.  He didn't want a comfy apartment full of people hanging out together.  He didn't want to like Penny.  And he definitely didn't want to fall in love.  I think at the same time Amy was drawing closer wanting more because of her feelings, his subconscious had him pulling back, freaking out over his feelings, which was just an awful dynamic to witness.  I think Sheldon has been waging an internal war for quite a while.  He finally admitted he was "quite fond of Amy" but didn't want to think about what that really meant.  He knew he wanted more than a friendship, but resented that fact because that's not who he ever wanted to be.  He alternately tried to rationalize it away (I don't need this nonsense Amy is pushing, see we're fine without it and she should see that too) AND consicously tried change, working on some of his issues so he *could* be closer to her ("I'm working on it" when Penny asked him about a physical relationship in The Cooper-Kripke Inversion.)   Even the knowledge that he WANTED to change some things surely scared him to death and made him pull back while simultaneously pushing forward.  Thus we get a man who can admit "for me what we have is extrememly intimate," while at the same time griping about handholding.  He's been fighting this, and fighting for this all along.

I said it in one of my fics, but it is what I really believe:

The two of them had both changed so much…hers had been mostly effortless, dreams she had held since childhood being fulfilled, allowing her to open herself up and experience things she had wanted all along, things she had only been convinced she wouldn't have. Girlfriends to hang out with, a social group, a boyfriend, a physical relationship, love. Her changes had been met with joy inside her as she saw her 13 year old self's desires becoming reality. Sheldon's changes, however, had been hard-fought. He appeared not to have ever dreamed of the things he had now, had actively tried to avoid even friendships, let alone love. Yet when it came he opened up to it, however painfully, slowly, awkwardly. Their union, first their friendship, then their love, had turned her into someone she had always dreamed of becoming, while it had turned Sheldon into someone he had always feared becoming. No wonder he had had a more difficult time arriving there than she had, but walked through it with her, he had indeed.

 

Thank you.  So spot on.

[Stephen Hawking]

12 hours ago, tmp said:

This may be one of those times they drop it for a few episodes.  After they became officially a couple, it wasn't brought back up again for a while.

I don't think they'll drop it for too long.

They've still got some ground to cover, before Sheldon proposes, in 6 episodes time.

[Cecilia]

29 minutes ago, nickelette424 said:

Well,  first off,  Sheldon and Amy were never just friends.   One if the running jokes in S4 was that Sheldon refused to call her his "girlfriend" and then referred to the pairing as a "relationship" never a friendship.  I love how in Desperation he tells Leonard once again that she is not his "girlfriend" and then proceeds to suggest that Leonard is jealous that he has a functioning and satisfying relationship with a female and offered up other examples of characters, who too, had girlfriends.  

What was different in old school Shamy is that instead of physical things,  such as kissing, sex etc., turning them on, it was each other's intellect and other personality quirks.  Those two seriously got off on that.  Intimacy comes in different forms and these two have been intimate since the beginning.  And I love that Mayim has made that point multiple times lately.    But, that is what people want to see again.   And it would be really great if these old school turn ons and this new found physical intimacy coexist.  Like Sheldon starts pontificating and Amy can't help herself and grabs and kisses him.  Or Sheldon is so turned on by doing one of their weird social experiments on their friends that it culminates with him dragging her to the bedroom.   That could be a new way to do old school Shamy. 

I think that is pretty accurate. Same with wow's and koops's posts. During seasons 4 and 5 before they were an official couple no one really thought they were just friends. I love the example you used here! I always found that incredible sweet how he thought they weren't a couple but compared the two of them with couples. Also when Leonard mentioned that he doesn't like Amy so he shouldn't bring her home he argued that saying how he put up with his female companion Penny. If I am not mistaken it was the same when they were talking about Priya at season 4 finale. He asked Leonard "don't  you like Amy" while they were talking about Leonard's girlfriend. Just like it's incredibly sweet that he stopped correcting people who referred at Amy as his girlfriend after she kissed him. I guess the reason why I loved them so much is because they proved to me that it is possible to have a profound, satisfying, romantic relationship with someone without having to be physical with them. I remember talking to a friend a little before I discovered the Shamy and how we both thought that what separates a friendship from a romantic relationship is the sexual element (not that the relationship couldn't be deeper than that just that it gave sense to the different nature of each relationship). And then I came across the Shamy and they totally swept me of my feet and made me realize that being someone's soul mate can work in so many different ways for different people. They were happy together, having fun and they felt that someone really got them. In their own way they were so intimate with each other being able to just be in each others presence without feeling awkward  (parallel play is what Shamy does best! That and making people feel weirded out like hell!! ) that I personally didn't feel their relationship should be physical. Having said that I enjoy very much the turn their relationship will take and adore how they will explore their sexuality together. Anyway I think I got a little carried away with that!

About the second part of you post I only have to say -- Oh yeah!! I would love to see that!! Them being turned on by something random like an amusing factoid about flags or a very cool idea in which they could combine physics and neuroscience  ( I am throwing some hardcore wishful thinking in the mix)!!!

[shamyship]

On 06/12/2015 13:58:38, FortCozyMcBlanket said:

What I love so much is the difference between these kisses. For starters, these 2 are the hottest kisses they've ever had! And yet when you compare them, the first kiss has Sheldon gently leaning into her at first and then pulling her in a little aggressively, expressing "I've missed you more than you know... I wish I'd kissed you like this a LONG time ago, and I hope it's okay that I'm surprising you with a kiss like this now..." 

And then the second kiss.... oh my god he just crashes into her like... "oh thank god you pulled me back in because I wasn't done! I never want to lose you again, and I'm not holding back anymore. You're mine, and I'm gonna make damn sure you know and want that." <3

I don't know what hits me harder in this scene: the scorchingly hot shamy kiss (whoa! And it doens't even seem like it was open mouthed) or the hilarity of Dave's reaction. What the hell was that? Surprise? Excitement? Crazy dancing of joy?  

[Denzel]

The Shamy couple will surely help a lots of shy girls and women to feel stronger and not to be affraid of love.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Denzel

[April]

10 minutes ago, jlove said:

Their union, first their friendship, then their love, had turned her into someone she had always dreamed of becoming, while it had turned Sheldon into someone he had always feared becoming. No wonder he had had a more difficult time arriving there than she had, but walked through it with her, he had indeed.

Just quoting this part b/c lengths. I think this whole point (which has also been made by many others on the last pages, seems we are very much in agreement) is consistent with the writer's statements. In hindsight it seems like they realized at some point that they can play a long game with Sheldon and Amy here. Yeah yeah, we all heard them talking about how they don't plan ahead and that may be true for single episode plots and such - but the broad strokes seem to serve this overall narrative that only unfolds before your eyes when you take a step back and look at the years as a whole and not single episode beats. Not saying that they had a precise 5 year plan or anything but they certainly had a concrete idea of the character's inner workings and how to get them to change over time. It may not have always been the most pleasant thing to watch for us as shippers but ultimately there seemed to be at least some level of determination and purpose on the writer's end involved. Not every episode or gag was a winner, no doubt - and likewise some high points may have been just happy little accidents but, hey, that's writing for you!

[Stephen Hawking]

9 hours ago, koops said:

find some new hobby to share together.

I think they found that, in Amy's bed.  

6 hours ago, wowbagger said:

Bring on the ShAmy giving poor Leonard something to think about every time he walks through the door!!

I actually want Penny and Leonard to be freaked out, by knowing the Shamy are bumping ugglies, in Sheldon's bedroom.

It'd be a sweet revenge, for all the times Sheldon has had to put up with Leonard (with and without Penny), doing the same.

To quote Sheldon:-

Payback, it truly is the B word, isn’t it?  

[nickelette424]

21 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

I think they found that, in Amy's bed.  

 

Is there anyway that you cannot turn everything into something sexual?

[MAH_B]

1 hour ago, jlove said:

I don't believe that Sheldon was acting out during seasons 6 and 7 out of spite either.  I also don't believe for a minute that these two were ever "just friends," no matter what they themselves called it, and I believe they realize it now as well.  Case in point, as I said some time ago: they celebrated their 5th anniversary in May.  They consider their anniversary to be the day they met, not the date of The Flaming Spitoon Acquisition, a year and a half later.  Even when they were just friends, they were never just friends.

I don't believe either of them ever intended to fall in love with each other, or anyone at all for that matter.  But I think by Season 6 they were not only both very much in love (I think that happened very early), but had both realized it.  I think Amy consciously realized she was in love, ergo, she wanted "all the things that people in love do and have."  End of story.  We know that Amy had actually wanted all the trappings of "normal" but just never got them ("I wish I could tell my 13 year old self if DOES get better" -  that statement is in 5.01.)  As soon as they were available to her she embraced girlfriends, shopping dates, sleepovers, a social group, etc.  She expected love to be no different when it came.

I think Sheldon probably realized he was in love at about the same time, but in his case I think it was entirely subconscious.  Unlike Amy he had never sought all the changes that had thusfar happened in his life.  He didn't want friends; his closeness with Leonard, Raj and Howard was not something he initially welcomed.  He didn't want a comfy apartment full of people hanging out together.  He didn't want to like Penny.  And he definitely didn't want to fall in love.  I think at the same time Amy was drawing closer wanting more because of her feelings, his subconscious had him pulling back, freaking out over his feelings, which was just an awful dynamic to witness.  I think Sheldon has been waging an internal war for quite a while.  He finally admitted he was "quite fond of Amy" but didn't want to think about what that really meant.  He knew he wanted more than a friendship, but resented that fact because that's not who he ever wanted to be.  He alternately tried to rationalize it away (I don't need this nonsense Amy is pushing, see we're fine without it and she should see that too) AND consicously tried change, working on some of his issues so he *could* be closer to her ("I'm working on it" when Penny asked him about a physical relationship in The Cooper-Kripke Inversion.)   Even the knowledge that he WANTED to change some things surely scared him to death and made him pull back while simultaneously pushing forward.  Thus we get a man who can admit "for me what we have is extrememly intimate" and have D&D sex, while at the same time griping about handholding.  Then, he enjoyed kissing her and added it to their relationship, while continuing to roll his eyes about other physical activities.  He ignored all his friends' assertions that he should talk to Amy before applying to go to Mars, but was ready to propose to her 7 weeks later.  He's been fighting this, and fighting for this, all along.

I said it in one of my fics, but it is what I really believe:

The two of them had both changed so much…hers had been mostly effortless, dreams she had held since childhood being fulfilled, allowing her to open herself up and experience things she had wanted all along, things she had only been convinced she wouldn't have. Girlfriends to hang out with, a social group, a boyfriend, a physical relationship, love. Her changes had been met with joy inside her as she saw her 13 year old self's desires becoming reality. Sheldon's changes, however, had been hard-fought. He appeared not to have ever dreamed of the things he had now, had actively tried to avoid even friendships, let alone love. Yet when it came he opened up to it, however painfully, slowly, awkwardly. Their union, first their friendship, then their love, had turned her into someone she had always dreamed of becoming, while it had turned Sheldon into someone he had always feared becoming. No wonder he had had a more difficult time arriving there than she had, but walked through it with her, he had indeed.

 

Yes yes yes! Very well said!

[Stephen Hawking]

3 hours ago, koops said:

Like Germany after the Cold War.

Fascinating subject.

Having stood with one foot in (what was) East Berlin, and one foot in (what was) West Berlin, I can honestly say, the division is a weird thing to think about.