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[Spoilers] Shamy: Season 9


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10 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Fascinating subject.

Having stood with one foot in (what was) East Berlin, and one foot in (what was) West Berlin, I can honestly say, the division is a weird thing to think about.

As Amy was this last war.

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39 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

To quote Sheldon:-

Payback, it truly is the B word, isn’t it? :icon_biggrin: 

Speaking of "the b" word.... after I finished rewatching seasons 4-present, I decided to go back and rewatch seasons 1-3, just to get a sense of how far Sheldon has come (shhhh, I may be just the tiniest bit obsessed right now). I was actually surprised to see a Sheldon in season one who seemed to have no problem with cursing. He said "ass," he told Leonard, "It's on, bitch" at one point. It seems like his aversion to "the b word" and other curse words developed over time.

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1 hour ago, jlove said:

I don't believe that Sheldon was acting out during seasons 6 and 7 out of spite either.  I also don't believe for a minute that these two were ever "just friends," no matter what they themselves called it, and I believe they realize it now as well.  Case in point, as I said some time ago: they celebrated their 5th anniversary in May.  They consider their anniversary to be the day they met, not the date of The Flaming Spitoon Acquisition, a year and a half later.  Even when they were just friends, they were never just friends.

I don't believe either of them ever intended to fall in love with each other, or anyone at all for that matter.  But I think by Season 6 they were not only both very much in love (I think that happened very early), but had both realized it.  I think Amy consciously realized she was in love, ergo, she wanted "all the things that people in love do and have."  End of story.  We know that Amy had actually wanted all the trappings of "normal" but just never got them ("I wish I could tell my 13 year old self if DOES get better" -  that statement is in 5.01.)  As soon as they were available to her she embraced girlfriends, shopping dates, sleepovers, a social group, etc.  She expected love to be no different when it came.

I think Sheldon probably realized he was in love at about the same time, but in his case I think it was entirely subconscious.  Unlike Amy he had never sought all the changes that had thusfar happened in his life.  He didn't want friends; his closeness with Leonard, Raj and Howard was not something he initially welcomed.  He didn't want a comfy apartment full of people hanging out together.  He didn't want to like Penny.  And he definitely didn't want to fall in love.  I think at the same time Amy was drawing closer wanting more because of her feelings, his subconscious had him pulling back, freaking out over his feelings, which was just an awful dynamic to witness.  I think Sheldon has been waging an internal war for quite a while.  He finally admitted he was "quite fond of Amy" but didn't want to think about what that really meant.  He knew he wanted more than a friendship, but resented that fact because that's not who he ever wanted to be.  He alternately tried to rationalize it away (I don't need this nonsense Amy is pushing, see we're fine without it and she should see that too) AND consicously tried change, working on some of his issues so he *could* be closer to her ("I'm working on it" when Penny asked him about a physical relationship in The Cooper-Kripke Inversion.)   Even the knowledge that he WANTED to change some things surely scared him to death and made him pull back while simultaneously pushing forward.  Thus we get a man who can admit "for me what we have is extrememly intimate," while at the same time griping about handholding.  He's been fighting this, and fighting for this all along.

I said it in one of my fics, but it is what I really believe:

The two of them had both changed so much…hers had been mostly effortless, dreams she had held since childhood being fulfilled, allowing her to open herself up and experience things she had wanted all along, things she had only been convinced she wouldn't have. Girlfriends to hang out with, a social group, a boyfriend, a physical relationship, love. Her changes had been met with joy inside her as she saw her 13 year old self's desires becoming reality. Sheldon's changes, however, had been hard-fought. He appeared not to have ever dreamed of the things he had now, had actively tried to avoid even friendships, let alone love. Yet when it came he opened up to it, however painfully, slowly, awkwardly. Their union, first their friendship, then their love, had turned her into someone she had always dreamed of becoming, while it had turned Sheldon into someone he had always feared becoming. No wonder he had had a more difficult time arriving there than she had, but walked through it with her, he had indeed.

 

I agree with most of what you're saying but I also generally feel like Amy and Sheldon are a lot less different than they're made out to be. To say that Sheldon actively avoided friendships or social entanglement in particular is something I always found a bit misleading, even though Bill made that point at CC, yes. In the sense that that statement sort of implies Sheldon had the opportunities and rejected them or avoided them, but Amy didn't. It's obvious that Sheldon didn't have the opportunities either, to me, because the vast majority of people find him to be a pain in the neck, annoying, arrogant and we know from a lot of canon that he had been bullied and has indeed hurt over being left out of things when he was younger. So I generally think that saying "Amy wanted this all along, whereas Sheldon avoided this all along" is a bit too simplistic. Neither of them had the opportunities, both of them were bullied and mocked and shunned, and both of them suffered from that, and I think both of them resisted different things at different points in their lives. We have quotes from Amy about resisting her mother's attempts to make her conform to the conventional perception of what a girl should be, making up fake boyfriends to get her family off her back about it, she came onto the show finding the notion of romantic love ridiculous and didn't even realize she could find a man sexually attractive. And to top it all off, she herself admitted that when she first met Sheldon she said to herself she was not going to fall in love with him but then it just happened in spite of herself. I think Amy wanting all these "normal" things were at least for a good half a product of her exposure to Penny and Bernadette and their social world, and that's what Molaro said at Comic Con too and what Bill often said, that they both grew up in similar sheltered environments but when Amy was exposed to the world she wanted to try it all whereas Sheldon didn't really see the big fuss about it. But, ultimately, once Sheldon got his friends, he became just as desperately attached to them as Amy is (especially Leonard and Penny). It's just that Amy wears it on her sleeve, whereas he hides it and won't admit it.

But, also, Sheldon and Amy had two very different upbringings. Sheldon was a child prodigy that skipped straight from childhood into adulthood and never had the chance to experience the trappings of middle school, high school and college the same way Amy did. And, with it, he was probably spared a lot of the crap that comes with it, which might explain why he's generally more aloof about wanting to experience certain things or prove things to others than Amy is, who had to go through all that mocking and bullying about one's social life that goes on at that age. Discussing things with Lio and others over the early part of this season, they made a great point that Sheldon was very much socialized by his mother and family first, and Leonard and Penny later, whereas Amy came onto the scene having had none of that, quite the opposite. So, by then, Sheldon had already had the chance to figure out what worked for him and what didn't (romance notwithstanding, since he never tried that before Amy), but Amy hadn't. And a lot of her journey from S4 until now, not just with Sheldon but with her friends too, was to figure out what works for her and what doesn't out of all the things she didn't have a chance to try before, which might explain her eagerness.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think it's more complicated than Amy having wanted it all all along and that's why it's easy for her, and Sheldon having fought against that all along and that's why it's harder for him, because we have evidence of her resisting and rejecting certain things as well as we have some evidence of him being eager and hurt by being left out. I always say that I think if there's one fundamental difference between Amy and Sheldon is that Amy is open minded and doesn't have as much pride and ego and hung ups as Sheldon does, and doesn't have that need to be above everyone else, and so for her it's much easier to throw herself out there and trying things out and changing her mind about things without worrying about what other people think of her, her status in her social group or being anxious every step of the way. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Nope. :icon_biggrin: 

Didn't he spell it out, as in:-

"A pain in the a-s-s"

I know at one point he called Amy's monkey (blanking on the darn monkey's name right now) an ass as well. "You really are an ass."

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7 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Nope. :icon_biggrin: 

Didn't he spell it out, as in:-

"A pain in the a-s-s"

Nope, he said the actual word. Season 1 & 2 Sheldon wasn't afraid to let fly with a well-placed curse word.

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14 minutes ago, Gbb said:

Speaking of "the b" word.... after I finished rewatching seasons 4-present, I decided to go back and rewatch seasons 1-3, just to get a sense of how far Sheldon has come (shhhh, I may be just the tiniest bit obsessed right now). I was actually surprised to see a Sheldon in season one who seemed to have no problem with cursing. He said "ass," he told Leonard, "It's on, bitch" at one point. It seems like his aversion to "the b word" and other curse words developed over time.

Sounds like an issue with the writers sometimes not being consistent.  

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Amy and Sheldon are two normal people who meets, there is no true intrigue in their story -in the way of getting closer -, they just have take some time, as people does in the affluent class and when both of the two people respect the other, nope??

Edited by Denzel
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Just now, lpm said:

Sounds like an issue with the writers sometimes not being consistent.  

As it is the chase with many shows, really, the writers just needed some time to figure everything out. You can basically see how over time the characters become more fleshed out in their idiosyncrasies and more stable in their personality (for lack of a better description).

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17 minutes ago, April said:

As it is the chase with many shows, really, the writers just needed some time to figure everything out. You can basically see how over time the characters become more fleshed out in their idiosyncrasies and more stable in their personality (for lack of a better description).

That as well.

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Sheldon didn't even knock three times in the beginning. It's interesting to see how things change over time.

Although, I must say that I do miss lines like, "it's on, bitch..." "gravity, thou art a heartless bitch..." stuff like that. Haha!

 

Edited by MJistheBOMB
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6 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Do you recall the episode, because I don't remember it?

The Agreement Dissection (Season 4 Episode 21). Sheldon's line to Ricky (Amy's smoking monkey) after drunk Amy rushes off the throw up after kissing Sheldon

"Who's to say that you shouldn't be dissecting our brains. (Ricky blows smoke in Sheldon's face) You really are an ass."

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22 minutes ago, koops said:

To say that Sheldon actively avoided friendships or social entanglement in particular is something I always found a bit misleading, even though Bill made that point at CC, yes. In the sense that that statement sort of implies Sheldon had the opportunities and rejected them or avoided them, but Amy didn't. It's obvious that Sheldon didn't have the opportunities either, to me, because the vast majority of people find him to be a pain in the neck, annoying, arrogant and we know from a lot of canon that he had been bullied and has indeed hurt over being left out of things when he was younger. So I generally think that saying "Amy wanted this all along, whereas Sheldon avoided this all along" is a bit too simplistic. Neither of them had the opportunities, both of them were bullied and mocked and shunned, and both of them suffered from that, and I think both of them resisted different things at different points in their lives. We have quotes from Amy about resisting her mother's attempts to make her conform to the conventional perception of what a girl should be, making up fake boyfriends to get her family off her back about it, she came onto the show finding the notion of romantic love ridiculous and didn't even realize she could find a man sexually attractive. And to top it all off, she herself admitted that when she first met Sheldon she said to herself she was not going to fall in love with him but then it just happened in spite of herself. I think Amy wanting all these "normal" things were at least for a good half a product of her exposure to Penny and Bernadette and their social world, and that's what Molaro said at Comic Con too and what Bill often said, that they both grew up in similar sheltered environments but when Amy was exposed to the world she wanted to try it all whereas Sheldon didn't really see the big fuss about it. But, ultimately, once Sheldon got his friends, he became just as desperately attached to them as Amy is (especially Leonard and Penny). It's just that Amy wears it on her sleeve, whereas he hides it and won't admit it.

 

This may be something that's been discussed here before, but while Amy had the greatest effect on Sheldon's ability to recognize and show feelings of affection for someone, I don't think we can discount Leonard's contribution.  I highly doubt the writers planned this in advance, but in retrospect Leonard was the perfect roommate for Sheldon. Leonard's childhood was as screwed up as Sheldon's, but Leonard's left him desperate for love and someone who craved attachment as deeply as Sheldon rejected it.

The roommate before Leonard warned him to "run away" before taking the apartment and had scrawled "Die, Sheldon, Die!" on his bedroom wall. We can safely extrapolate that he made no attempt to get past the "annoying, arrogant" outer layer to the person underneath. It's a technique Sheldon had perfected after years being an outsider and bullied, combined with his own innate discomfort with intimacy of any sort.

Leonard, however, was an old pro at dealing with someone who held him at arm's length, minimized his accomplishments and sniffed disdainfully at his attempts to forge an emotional bond.  The difference between Beverly and Sheldon is that, while we're still not clear what's underneath Beverly's armor, we know that underneath Sheldon's is a caring person who capable of forming a deep bond with anyone persistent enough to ignore the bluster. 

 

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38 minutes ago, April said:

As it is the chase with many shows, really, the writers just needed some time to figure everything out. You can basically see how over time the characters become more fleshed out in their idiosyncrasies and more stable in their personality (for lack of a better description).

Yep, like Leonard claiming in the premier that Sheldon was semi-pro at masturbation.  Then later claiming he has no hormones and the guys joking that the're not even sure he has genitals.  Just the writers not having fully formed every aspect of who the characters were at the very outset of the show.

11 minutes ago, Gbb said:

 

This may be something that's been discussed here before, but while Amy had the greatest effect on Sheldon's ability to recognize and show feelings of affection for someone, I don't think we can discount Leonard's contribution.  I highly doubt the writers planned this in advance, but in retrospect Leonard was the perfect roommate for Sheldon. Leonard's childhood was as screwed up as Sheldon's, but Leonard's left him desperate for love and someone who craved attachment as deeply as Sheldon rejected it.

The roommate before Leonard warned him to "run away" before taking the apartment and had scrawled "Die, Sheldon, Die!" on his bedroom wall. We can safely extrapolate that he made no attempt to get past the "annoying, arrogant" outer layer to the person underneath. It's a technique Sheldon had perfected after years being an outsider and bullied, combined with his own innate discomfort with intimacy of any sort.

Leonard, however, was an old pro at dealing with someone who held him at arm's length, minimized his accomplishments and sniffed disdainfully at his attempts to forge an emotional bond.  The difference between Beverly and Sheldon is that, while we're still not clear what's underneath Beverly's armor, we know that underneath Sheldon's is a caring person who capable of forming a deep bond with anyone persistent enough to ignore the bluster. 

 

Oh yes, I think Leonard was the major turning point in Sheldon's life, for sure.  I was referring to the fact that, even once potential friends were in his life Sheldon had no interest for some time.  He didn't want Leondard inviting Howard and Raj over, he has repeatedly said he doesn't need more friends, he didn't want Penny coming over, etc.  It seemed like even when people wanted to get close to him (of course Howard and Raj hated him at first) he pushed them away and acted like he didn't want any human entanglements at all.

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26 minutes ago, Gbb said:

 

This may be something that's been discussed here before, but while Amy had the greatest effect on Sheldon's ability to recognize and show feelings of affection for someone, I don't think we can discount Leonard's contribution.  I highly doubt the writers planned this in advance, but in retrospect Leonard was the perfect roommate for Sheldon. Leonard's childhood was as screwed up as Sheldon's, but Leonard's left him desperate for love and someone who craved attachment as deeply as Sheldon rejected it.

The roommate before Leonard warned him to "run away" before taking the apartment and had scrawled "Die, Sheldon, Die!" on his bedroom wall. We can safely extrapolate that he made no attempt to get past the "annoying, arrogant" outer layer to the person underneath. It's a technique Sheldon had perfected after years being an outsider and bullied, combined with his own innate discomfort with intimacy of any sort.

Leonard, however, was an old pro at dealing with someone who held him at arm's length, minimized his accomplishments and sniffed disdainfully at his attempts to forge an emotional bond.  The difference between Beverly and Sheldon is that, while we're still not clear what's underneath Beverly's armor, we know that underneath Sheldon's is a caring person who capable of forming a deep bond with anyone persistent enough to ignore the bluster. 

 

Absolutely.   There is a reason Sheldon wanted to revert to the day before he met Leonard and not the day before he met Amy.

Edited by nickelette424
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1 hour ago, Denzel said:

Amy and Sheldon are two normal people who meets, there is no true intrigue in their story -in the way of getting closer -, they just have take some time, as people does in the affluent class and when both of the two people respect the other, nope??

Out of interest, where is it in the world you are from? 

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7 minutes ago, Sshrews said:

I'm looking forward to these two episodes a great deal. Yes I know so was everyone. They are truly the combination of years of writing thoughts and development.

I keep forgetting that they are two separate episodes and not some sort of Shamy mega-episode! but that's ok cus so have the people making the previews :rofl: 

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Old Shamy things I want back now: Group dinners in 4A with Amy back in her spot next to Sheldon, tea at the kitchen island with their blue and yellow mugs, lunches together in her lab, eye-coitus...

New Shamy things I hope to see: Passionate date-night kisses, him leading her down the hall to his bedroom, the two of them sitting together in their robes eating breakfast and watching TV, Sheldon letting go of Lenny because he now values his privacy over his fear of being alone...

I expect Sheldon to continue to be as cerebral and difficult as ever but, going forward I want to see some very softened edges when it comes to Amy.

Finally, I am still thinking that we are going to see a proposal for the 200th episode.

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9 hours ago, Flaky said:

There's still another kiss in the tag scene for 9x10 we haven't seen on the promos yet.  After seeing the other two I just might faint!  

In the interest of full disclosure, approx 642,000 of those 1.9 million views were probably me.  :icon_redface:

Edited by jlove
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