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[Spoilers] Shamy: Season 9

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18 minutes ago, koops said:

I don't want to burst that particular bubble :p, but it's also possible she had just moved to that neighborhood that year, which is why maybe she replied to that particular dating profile when she met Sheldon: he was in the area, less effort for her to get her annual date over and done with. So she met Sheldon and the others because she moved to the area, rather than the other way around, and then ended up just staying there out of convenience. That apartment looked far too lived in to be somewhere were she just moved after meeting him. Also, Amy in the Cooper Extraction flashbacks envisions herself living in that same apartment, even in a universe where she never met Sheldon.

LOL, all true.  I'm of the opinion that it took Amy some time to fall for him, but he was smitten almost immediately (in an intellectual-I-don't-need-more-and-don't-usually-want-new-friends-yet-she's-so-intriguing way) in any case.  Just giving some props to those who think otherwise if that's true.  :shy:

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3 hours ago, Gbb said:

I absolutely understand the desire not to have Amy evolve into a woman who needs a man to feel complete, and I would personally hate to see that happen. But I just don't see that happening here. Before Amy met Sheldon, she was not looking for a romantic relationship, and she was, as far as we know, quite fulfilled in her professional life. She's always been shown as a success in her field, but over the last 5 years we've also seen him come to recognize that she wants to have a fulfilling romantic life as well. Her preference was to have that with Sheldon, but she chose to walk away from him when it seemed he was never going to give her what she needed.

Dr. Fowler has already proved, many times over, that she doesn't need a man, but through her relationship with Sheldon she discovered that a mutually-fulfilling romantic relationship is something she wants to have in her life. Once she learned that Sheldon had been asking women out, she believed the door she had closed was going to stay closed, so she picked herself up and set about the process of finding someone new. Amy could have thrown herself back into her work at this point, and I certainly wouldn't have minded some mention of her in the lab or some new study she's conducting, but I believe that choosing to start dating was a proactive move on her part. Wanting a life partner is a legitimate desire. She wasn't going to remain alone for the rest of her life waiting on Sheldon; she was going to do what she needed to find what she wanted.

Her years without a relationship and her decision to walk away from Sheldon when their relationship was arguably in a better place than it had been before already show us she's not afraid to be alone. The way she handled the aftermath of their breakup (putting herself out there, arranging dates on her own) show us she's also not afraid to go after what she wants.

I’m both a romantic and a feminist, so I’m very happy that (1) Amy was strong enough to end her relationship with Sheldon and try to find a new one with a man who would make her a priority AND that  (2) none of her dates got very serious before she and Sheldon found their way back to each other.

 

The bold part is the reason why my views seem to rub others the wrong way.  While I believe in equal rights for women in politics, culture, socialism, economics, and personally, I am not a feminist by any means when it comes to relationships.  I am a strong independent woman with a solid career.  I believe there is nothing wrong with a woman wanting or being submissive to a man in her life to feel complete, as long as she's doing it for the right reasons and making a purposeful choice to cling to the right one who will guide and support her rather than settle for the sake of wanting a physical relationship or not being alone.

Amy is a strong independent and professional woman, but on a social and personal level, she struggles to stand up for herself.   She even allowed Penny to put her in her closet after she was forced to call her mother to tell her she broke up with Sheldon.   Really?  Sheldon has tried to get out of doing things and pokes fun at things he doesn't like or want, but unlike her mother and her friends, Sheldon has always accepted Amy for who she is and has not tried to change or berate her for who and what she is.

Amy longed to be wanted and needed by Sheldon, and while she was happy in the beginning with the intellectual and emotional intimacy they had, somewhere down the road what he was giving her wasn't enough any longer.   While Penny has had a positive influence on Amy by making her more open to things, she also influenced her into believing something was missing because Sheldon had not consummated their relationship.    While not necessarily about sex, Amy did want more physical intimacy, and Sheldon seemed about ready to provide it before opening his mouth and causing Amy to reconsider their relationship.

I don't think Amy ending her relationship with Sheldon had anything to do with strength on her part.   She was upset by what Sheldon said during the most intimate moment they had ever had.  She got tired of all the work she was putting into the relationship thinking that she was getting little in return.   She just wanted to take a step back.  She felt forced by Sheldon to make a decision on impulse and then regretted it.   She didn't know how to take it back.   Instead of facing the break up head on by discussing her issues with Sheldon, she ran from them and pushed Sheldon's attempts to reach out to her away.   When she assumed her actions had indeed caused Sheldon to move on, she reacted by attempting to do so as well, not to look for a life partner, but to gain dating experience. 

So Amy goes out on a few dates, finds out she is not happy.    It seems they were not intellectually stimulating enough for her.    She goes out with Sheldon as a friend and is happy again, suddenly wanting Sheldon back with the way things were before they broke up, with no conditions for making her number one or increasing intimacy.   This further indicates that the break up was never meant to happen.   She just wanted some rest from her exhaustion, and she snapped when Sheldon didn't give it to her when she asked.

Luckily, the break up did do Sheldon some good, but I would have liked to have seen Amy learn something from it, too.   I would have preferred she had never taken the dating route, making it clear that her heart belonged to Sheldon and that she wasn't seeking something that she thought was missing in her relationship with Sheldon with someone else.   Did she not continue to go out  or sleep with any of her dates by choice because there was no interest on her side to do so?  We can assume such, but it would have been nice to have it clearly stated.

True Sheldon asked Raj and Howard to help him find another Amy.  They called him out as well.   I think they went along because they were more intrigued by the outcome of the experiment than to help Sheldon.   I think Sheldon was looking for more of a distraction than success, and as soon as he opened the door, he recognized his mistake and put an end to it before it began.   The fact that he said he wouldn't consider coitusing Vanessa indicates that his lack of interest had more to do with his heart than her dislike of a lecture or being late.   Amy is the only one he has ever considered coitusing with.   There was no substitute and he wasn't even going to try to go there.   I think at that point he had decided he'd rather be alone than to settle for a mere imitation, at best.   Sheldon sided with his heart over his need to cover his hurt.

And Bernie, as much as that woman rubs me the wrong way, kudos to her for calling Amy out twice.   Once for dating when she clearly stated she wasn't ready to move on, and the second time for inviting a guy whom she barely knew and ruined their last date over to her apartment with the potential for getting intimate.   To coin Sheldon, what are you doing woman?

It would have been nice if we had seen Amy take the same stand as Sheldon, but she did not.  She had already been out on three dates with Dave and determined it was not working out, even having to tell him to get out of her car.   Kudos to her for taking a stand then, but it didn't last.   She gets shot down by Sheldon.   I thought she would have chosen to go along with being friends, spending some time on her own, and waited for Sheldon to come to his senses.  He's done it before.  No, instead, she takes the initiative to call Dave back shortly afterward, makes excuses to justify his behavior, blames herself as part of the reason the date went wrong because she took the last breadstick, and invites him to her apartment for a private meal.   Then to make matters worse, when he kisses her, instead of putting an end to it, she makes an excuse to lean in for another.   Like she told Bernie, she thought "intimate" was what she needed and was considering settling with Dave because he was a nice guy.    What would have happened if Sheldon had not shown up is open to interpretation and has been debated already, with many possibilities, not probabilities.

I don't think she chose to date Dave because she was looking for a life partner but because she was trying to fill a void.  IMO, coping with hurt feelings and disappointment is where Amy lacks good decision-making capabilities.   Sheldon is no knight in shining armor, but he showed up without realizing he was rescuing her from herself.   Yes, Sheldon was at fault for not making his intentions and feelings known to Amy, but in the end he did, and he got the prize after all.

I see no double standard here.   Although Sheldon refrained from showing emotion, on an emotional level, he has shown far more maturity than Amy in their relationship.   Sheldon's inappropriate and unfiltered remarks aside, Sheldon calculates and considers the consequences of his actions before proceeding.   Amy, on the other hand, simply reacts and then falters in her attempts to cope with the outcome, especially when things don't go her way.  

Amy doesn't just need a man in her life.  She needs a Sheldon for love, intellectual play, comfort, reassurance, and reasoning.   Amy has softened Sheldon, but in some ways, by having to put up with him, he has hardened her and made her stronger.    Without him, she seems to lose confidence in herself.    She needs him as much as he needs her. 

Where the scales were tipped on one side or the other depending on which aspect of the relationship one chooses to reflect on, I think we can safely say that the plates are finally balanced between the two.   The romance between them is not idealistic but based on two individuals who have found understanding and purpose in each other, in a world where no one gets them and tries to guide them by their own standards. 

What makes this so beautiful is they get each other and end up back together in spite of their individual misgivings, Amy not knowing it they will ever be physically intimate and Sheldon not knowing if he will get hurt again.  On their own, they realize that with each other is where they belong and the wait/risk is worth it.

Edited by jenafan
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15 minutes ago, ATOB said:

I disagree. The asexual message has been forefront and consistent throughout Sheldon's characterization from the go-get.

Leonard even named it. 'He has no deal.'

If Leonard had said 'His deal is bespectacled women with hair the colour of mud' then that'd be that, but he didn't.

I really don't need to list all the 'Sheldon is asexual' jokes! You know 'em, I know 'em, they're even present right there in the actual 'Coitus' episode (two examples, Proton and the 'next birthday' gag).

Regardless, whether it's no deal, bespectacled brunettes or sock puppets, I'll be tuning in. As I said, it looks adorable, however it turns out.

Maybe it's true in the first few seasons where they haven't made up mind whether or not to give Sheldon a girlfriend. But after all these years, after all the jokes abou how Amy wants sex, after how proud they feel about themselves for creating such a perfect couple as Shamy, do you really think they still want Sheldon to be asexual?

So what, after all these years of waiting, when they finally move to the stage of coitus, the only thing that's waiting for Amy is a cold, hard fact, "No, you'll never get what you want.". This way the writers can finally admit to us they were wrong to give Sheldon a girlfriend in the first place. Or maybe they should've pair Sheldon with Penny, 'cause some people who claim themselves to be Shamy fans sure think Sheldon have no problems with sexual desires when it comes to her lol (No offence to Lenny and other Shamy fans).

 

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6 minutes ago, vonmar said:

Chuck actually talked about this today at an event he attended...

"the characters have to grow incrementally. Its kind of a slight of hand. That’s one of the things I'm most proud about The Big Bang Theory; we've changed these characters," said Lorre, pointing to Thursday's new episode which will see Sheldon (Jim Parsons) finally have sex. "I would never have dreamed of [that] when we started the show. I actually imaged the character was asexual when we started."

Added Lorre: "To have him now, nine years later, having an intimate relationship with a woman is really wonderful as a writer because you're not doing the same thing every week. The characters can sneak up on you and change a little bit."

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/chuck-lorre-dick-wolf-talk-848618?utm_source=twitter

I actually wish he hadn't said that cus it just adds fuel to the 'Amy fixed him' theory :icon_neutral:

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9 minutes ago, vonmar said:

Chuck actually talked about this today at an event he attended...

"the characters have to grow incrementally. Its kind of a slight of hand. That’s one of the things I'm most proud about The Big Bang Theory; we've changed these characters," said Lorre, pointing to Thursday's new episode which will see Sheldon (Jim Parsons) finally have sex. "I would never have dreamed of [that] when we started the show. I actually imaged the character was asexual when we started."

Added Lorre: "To have him now, nine years later, having an intimate relationship with a woman is really wonderful as a writer because you're not doing the same thing every week. The characters can sneak up on you and change a little bit."

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/chuck-lorre-dick-wolf-talk-848618?utm_source=twitter

And now I'm wondering: he imaged the character asexual when they started to keep him this way for how long the show last or to change him by the years? What probably was the original idea?
 

 

29 minutes ago, FortCozyMcBlanket said:

This belongs right up there with the Shenny kiss nightmare... 

 

46 minutes ago, Kathy2611 said:

AHHHHH!!!  YES!!  I hated that thing.  I was watching the episode again (for maybe the 10th time) with my oldest (her first) on my iPad and when Amy closed the door on Dave, I saw it for the first time, screamed, and flung the iPad away from me.  My daughter thought it was hilarious.  I'm still shaking.  

 

50 minutes ago, koops said:

This is one of the creepiest things I've ever seen. 

This monkey looks devilish. I'd like to know who did it and why did it so scary. If he/she wanted to make people loss their sleep and have nightmares, congratulations, nailed it.

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9 minutes ago, Einstein Von Brainstorm said:

I actually wish he hadn't said that cus it just adds fuel to the 'Amy fixed him' theory :icon_neutral:

I think he meant over years Sheldon grows up and he falls in love with a woman. Not Amy made him grow up.

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2 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

Maybe it's true in the first few seasons where they haven't made up mind whether or not to give Sheldon a girlfriend. But after all these years, after all the jokes abou how Amy wants sex, after how proud they feel about themselves for creating such a perfect couple as Shamy, do you really think they still want Sheldon to be asexual?

So what, after all these years of waiting, when they finally move to the stage of coitus, the only thing that's waiting for Amy is a cold, hard fact, "No, you'll never get what you want.". This way the writers can finally admit to us they were wrong to give Sheldon a girlfriend in the first place. Or maybe they should've pair Sheldon with Penny, 'cause some people who claim themselves to be Shamy fans sure think Sheldon have no problems with sexual desires when it comes to her lol (No offence to Lenny and other Shamy fans).

 

But Amy DID get what she wanted, Sheldon 'gifted' it to her on her birthday....again, another asexual joke.

And Sheldon wanted to gift himself, otherwise he wouldn't have done it. And it wasn't as bad as he thought it would be either. He said so.

Perhaps this is the trajectory for the remaining seasons, Sheldon's awakening libedo? I'd certainly like to see that. Much as I think 'doing it for her' is super sweet, I admit I'd love to see a Sheldon struggling with his newfound (demi)sexual desires (struggling to be above such things and failing miserably). I've always said I'd like Shamy Coitus to be bizarre and off the wall (I seem to remember writing a chapter in a fan-fic where he wanted her on her knees dressed as R2D2...that certainly brought a few non-reviewers out of the walls, Lol!)

As for Sheldon's attraction to Penny? No! The whole point is Sheldon has never shown sexual attraction to anyone, man, woman or sock-puppet! It's been the butt of so many jokes, come on! 

Of course, now Sheldon IS sexually active, it takes away the main argument used against Shenny, i.e. what would Penny,  a 'big ol' 5' do with Sheldon, play 3D chess all night? Hmm? Now there's something to think on.

Fascinating....

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On 12/11/2015 at 0:28 AM, Gbb said:

CBS put up the Shamy kissing scene - minus the tag (ends on the song)

 

sorry (not sorry) but I wanted to take a break from all this reading and just look at this again! :)  Don't let Dave's presence ruin it for ya's-----just bask in the goodness of the Shamy make up/make out at the end!

Edited by Pebbles123
wanted to add text
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16 minutes ago, ATOB said:

But Amy DID get what she wanted, Sheldon 'gifted' it to her on her birthday....again, another asexual joke.

And Sheldon wanted to gift himself, otherwise he wouldn't have done it. And it wasn't as bad as he thought it would be either. He said so.

Perhaps this is the trajectory for the remaining seasons, Sheldon's awakening libedo? I'd certainly like to see that. Much as I think 'doing it for her' is super sweet, I admit I'd love to see a Sheldon struggling with his newfound (demi)sexual desires (struggling to be above such things and failing miserably). I've always said I'd like Shamy Coitus to be bizarre and off the wall (I seem to remember writing a chapter in a fan-fic where he wanted her on her knees dressed as R2D2...that certainly brought a few non-reviewers out of the walls, Lol!)

As for Sheldon's attraction to Penny? No! The whole point is Sheldon has never shown sexual attraction to anyone, man, woman or sock-puppet! It's been the butt of so many jokes, come on! 

Of course, now Sheldon IS sexually active, it takes away the main argument used against Shenny, i.e. what would Penny,  a 'big ol' 5' do with Sheldon, play 3D chess all night? Hmm? Now there's something to think on.

Fascinating....

I think the main argument used against Shenny is it was never a thing.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/chuck-lorre-dick-wolf-talk-848618?utm_source=twitter

Edited by camelliayao
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12 minutes ago, vonmar said:

I didn't get that from Chuck's statement.  to me, he's talking about character growth.  Sheldon simply grew up, was Amy part of that growth, yes but so were his friends and the experiences that he had over that period of time.

Yes I agree but people will (likely) latch on to this statement as 100% proof that he was Asexual and accuse the show of 'fixing' it when his sexuality was not something that needed fixed, there are already some accusing them of just that. :( 

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32 minutes ago, Ranger Rosa said:

And now I'm wondering: he imaged the character asexual when they started to keep him this way for how long the show last or to change him by the years? What probably was the original idea?

In the un-aired pilot, the backstory was that Sheldon had a sexual experience (at Comic Con, I think).  When CBS rejected the original concept and told them to re-work it, they may have decided to change who/what Sheldon was going to be, going forward.

Edited by vonmar
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1 hour ago, Ranger Rosa said:

You're talking about this adorable monkey? 
tumblr_m13ze9lNiG1qb5j8po1_500.gif

Maybe we found the source of Amy's night terrors.  Ditch the monkey, sweetie.  I think we'll all sleep better.

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6 minutes ago, Einstein Von Brainstorm said:

Yes I agree but people will (likely) latch on to this statement as 100% proof that he was Asexual and accuse the show of 'fixing' it when his sexuality was not something that needed fixed, there are already some accusing them of just that. :( 

Which is where "demisexuality" enters (stage left).  No sign of Sheldon doing it for himself to back it up.....yet (and this is a hopeful 'yet').

I should add that Asexuals can and do engage in sexual relationships if the person they love needs the intimacy of sex to feel whole.

10 minutes ago, jlove said:

Yeah, I take that to mean that at the beginning, before they really knew the characters (because good characters to do take on a life of their own and show you who they are over time) he imagined that to be the case.  But then they realized this guy was much more complicated than that.  He wasn't, in fact, asexual (since he says "imagined" in the past tense I think we can clearly say Chuck's answer is that NO, SHELDON IS NOT ASEXUAL), but there was, in fact, something deeper going on with him that led him to act in a way that his friends even thought that might be the case.  And now we can see, he's not.

How do we see that he's not?

Can you give me an example where Sheldon is shown wanting sex for his own pleasure?

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8 minutes ago, ATOB said:

How do we see that he's not?

Can you give me an example where Sheldon is shown wanting sex for his own pleasure?

Since he'll have sex on Thursday for the first time, no, we can't give you an example. But why don't we wait and see what happens from now on?

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2 minutes ago, ATOB said:

No sign of Sheldon doing it for himself to back it up.....yet (and this is a hopeful 'yet').

I'm sorry you've lost me there, doing what himself?

Quote

I should add that Asexuals can and do engage in sexual relationships if the person they love needs the intimacy of sex to feel whole.

This is the part that I can not get my head around at all, if Sheldon is Asexual (as I once presumed him to be) and he had sex solely for the other person then I find that just horrible. Having sex when you do not want to do it/are pressured into it ... I was always taught that there was a word for that.

I would be horrified to think that the person I was sleeping with was only doing it to get me off, I find the whole idea completely repugnant and if the genders were swapped in this situation I have a feeling that this wouldn't even be a conversation that people were having.

Out of interest are you still on the Asexual bandwagon now that Chuck has said that he is not?

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26 minutes ago, jlove said:

Yeah, I take that to mean that at the beginning, before they really knew the characters (because good characters to do take on a life of their own and show you who they are over time) he imagined that to be the case.  But then they realized this guy was much more complicated than that.  He wasn't, in fact, asexual (since he says "imagined" in the past tense I think we can clearly say Chuck's answer is that NO, SHELDON IS NOT ASEXUAL), but there was, in fact, something deeper going on with him that led him to act in a way that his friends even thought that might be the case.  And now we can see, he's not.

I agree. He is more complex.  A hint of how so is in 9x10.  Why won't he return to Amy and their relationship, though he so desperately wants that and she gives him an easy oportunity?  As he says, he excels at many things but not getting over her. When it comes to doing that with which he feels he does not excel, he protects his ego and ops out.  He does not feel very confident in his ability to connect with others physically.  The more he faces this phobia/challenge the better equipt he is to be more physical.  

I see his sexuality as a bit of a Schrodinger's cat and the writers are opening the box.  We shall see.  

Someone  asked when Sheldon desired sex for his own pleasure. This does not answer that question exactly,  but he did seem to become aroused, not strictly sexually but inimately,  from the train kiss. That kiss, or his reaction to it, indicated a change in disposition regarding physical intimacy.

Edited by AnnJ
Typo

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1 minute ago, camelliayao said:

Since he'll have sex on Thursday for the first time, no, we can't give you an example. But why don't we wait and see what happens from now on?

Absolutely! 

Again, it's what I want to see too. It actually p!sses me off that it's not there, as I said, we all have our own lens.

Oh, and on the Chuck Lorre 'imagined' spin that's going on.  The whole Big Bang Universe is from this man's imagination. He imagined Sheldon as Asexual as he imagined Howard as a Mommy's Boy, Raj as having selective mutism, Leonard a cold upbringing. The characters evolve, but you can't change the core characterization, that's canon. The asexual jokes are very much alive and kicking, even as the cherry pops, there they are in the tag!

15 minutes ago, jenafan said:

I don't think it is a matter of being "fixed." 

I think this is the direction the writers started with not knowing they were eventually going to give Sheldon a love interest and that it would take off as well as it did.   By giving Sheldon Asexual characteristics, but not outright labeling him, allowed flexibility in writer creativity, which has turned out to be successful to his development. 

Sheldon's interest in whether or not Amy has had coitus and the kiss we saw last week was a good indicator of just how physical Sheldon wants to get with Amy, for himself and for her.  

I think Amy coming into Sheldon's life and awakening him only proves that his lack of desire beforehand was the result of choice rather than orientation.     He didn't expect to ever find anyone who would peak his interest, and then Amy Farrah Fowler entered his life and changed all that.

I had Sheldon pegged all wrong, and I am glad I did, because I like him better this way.   Amy deserves to be desired, and I want Sheldon to desire her, not have sex with her to make her happy.   I can see him trying to regulate it, and I want him to fail miserably at it by his own weakness for Amy.

 

"Choice" again?

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2 minutes ago, ATOB said:

Absolutely! 

Again, it's what I want to see too. It actually p!sses me off that it's not there, as I said, we all have our own lens.

Oh, and on the Chuck Lorre 'imagined' spin that's going on.  The whole Big Bang Universe is from this man's imagination. He imagined Sheldon as Asexual as he imagined Howard as a Mommy's Boy, Raj as having selective mutism, Leonard a cold upbringing. The characters evolve, but you can't change the core characterization, that's canon. The asexual jokes are very much alive and kicking, even as the cherry pops, there they are in the tag!

Actually most of the original cast's characterizations are based on real people that Bill Prady worked with when he was a computer programmer in his pre-Hollywood life.  Bill told stories to Chuck about them, they decided to collaborate and TBBT was born.

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