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[Spoilers] Shamy: Season 9


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10 minutes ago, bluebird said:

Why does Meemaw have to like Amy? Sure it would've made a nice sweet scene tho.. And how is she an obstacle in their relationship? As far as I understood, it did no harm to their relationship. Sheldon stood up for his lady and I don't think Meemaw will try and get in their way.

I've already said many pages back that I had always thought Meemaw was kinda badass, not at all the fluffy, sweet granny Sheldon made her sound like. I mean she killed a prairie dog with a gravy boat! We know that Sheldon's her soft spot, her Moonpie who's just so nummy nummy that she could eat him up. She also seems to know him really well, so she knows that he's not the easiest man to be with. She knows that being with him means sometimes helping him and calling him out and that it might be hard or tiresome for his SO. It takes a certain type of person to be with a man like that. Ya'll know how much I love Sheldon and I'm not implying that he's totally helpless, but some things cannot be changed. And he'll need a patient partner who loves him dearly. We know how perfect Amy is for her, but Meemaw doesn't. She had never met her and when they broke up, she probably heard a one-sided story about it from Sheldon. All she knows is that this is the woman who broke her grandson's heart into pieces. This is the woman, who got so tired of him once that she broke up with him. So how can she be sure that she won't get tired again, especially knowing how challenging he can sometimes be? And after 6 months of heartbreak, they get back together and I doubt Sheldon gave her a detailed report on why and how it happened. Why would she trust her? Why would she be welcoming Amy with open arms? And I don't think her trust and acceptance can be earned in one day, even if Sheldon assures her that the break up was indeed necessary. 

With that being said, I'm not saying that I like Meemaw's behavior or think it's all justified, just that I get why she acts like that. She has concerns and I think she might have had them even without the break up. I hope that over time she'll come around and really gets to know Amy and eventually like her. Still I'm not worried at all, I think this'll be a hilarious episode with some great, important stuff. 

I'm not saying Meemaw "have to" like Amy. I just hope that she does because before this episode, we know Meemaw gave her cookie recipe to Amy so I think it's safe to say she has no problems with Amy before.

It's not about Meemaw or Amy. It's about the writers who somehow still are not over the break up, so much so that they feel the need to bring it up every now and then. Maybe Meemaw will like Amy, maybe not. They can let Meemaw and Amy have conflicts for a lot of reasons, but what reason did they give us? The break up.

And I'm Ok with more discussion about the break up, just not in this way. Because all I can see is Sheldon acting mature and considerate and brave to talk about his heartbreak and how much he had learned from it while Amy sitting quietly next to him, acting somewhat indifferent. I want Amy to show that she's heartbroken because Sheldon was heartbroken, that though the break up is not her fault, still she feels sorry because what Sheldon had been through makes her heart ache. I want to see the 909 Amy, asking if Sheldon was doing Ok. 

I want the writers to either stop talking about the break up, so that us audience can make the assumption that they have already had THAT conversation off screen and make peace with the whole storyline, or to show us both sides of the story, not Sheldon saying "I was so heartbroken because of the break up. But I now know how important you are to me.", with Amy going like "Oh really? That's great. I'm so touched."

Again, all of these are my wishes. I'm not saying the writers "have to" do anything.

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3 hours ago, April said:

I didn't mean you personally. As said, this was also in reaction to what was/is going on in that other thread for a while now. If I had wanted to pick your opinion apart I would have just done that. Please don't feel discouraged to post here. *offers a consoling hug*

With regards to the bold part: Hearing that from her in that particular situation would have been nice and dandy, no objections.

But what the scene ultimately tries to accomplish here is to have Meemaw and Amy find common ground. The way her visit went down Amy sees Meemaw treating Sheldon as a kid (and grandparents do that all the time, nothing unusual here) but naturally that makes Amy wonder if she truly knows what Sheldon is like as an adult and what she has to deal with as his girlfriend - especially since Meemaw is giving her hell the whole time. And to some extend Meemaw doesn't get it because she doesn't understand the issues that plaque Sheldon's everyday life (good lord, Google, what were you thinking!?) - but what she does know is being married to a man who could just be as stubborn and infuriating as Sheldon can be. That should be enough for both women to bond. And yet here is Meemaw quite a bit self-righteous herself because apparently she stuck it out with Pop-pop but how dare Amy stand up for herself and hurt her poor Moonpie! As much as this might have been for the right reasons in that she's worried about her grandson it's still infuriating that she's having this sort of attitude towards Amy. She could have simply talked to Amy (and Sheldon for that matter) but instead she immediately turns into Gorgon!Meemaw (thx, Wowbagger!) when Sheldon isn't looking and attacks her. So in context this all makes a whole lot of sense to me and I can't help but defend Amy here.

Eh, I guess I see it a little differently. Yes, Meemaw we hear has been married to someone equally (cough) challenging as Sheldon. And if we knew more about that relationship I might agree that there is common ground. The question for me would be, did Meemaw stick it out through thick and thin and never left pop pop's side? Because if she did, the argument could be made that though there is common ground in the "challenge", the approach would perceived differently by Meemaw. She could be making the point that Amy's six month "break" wasn't cool with her, and that her moonpie wasn't someone that she wants being in a relationship with a woman who isn't in it for the long haul and will drop him again when the going gets rough.

yup, communication all around is once again a problem, and I guess the limitations of a 20 minute show necessitate that shortcoming. Sheldon should've/could've explained to his Meemaw and Mary what happened at reconciliation and made sure that Meemaw wasn't coming to visit with an agenda. Amy could've been a little more astute and talked with Sheldon about the visit, and what exactly his family thought of her post reconciliation since she would undoubtedly be perceived as the one with the problem (he had the ring, he was proposing, SHE ended it). And yes, Meemaw could have talked to Sheldon about the reconciliation and compared notes with him regarding her understanding of the break up.

Gotta keep telling myself, "it's just a show, it's just a show" lol.....

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2 hours ago, bluebird said:

As much as I enjoy reading different opinions and at their best they can create insightful conversation here, I'm kinda tired of reading the same arguments over and over. Don't get me wrong, everyone is 100% entitled to express their concerns, but maaan I feel like no one is getting anything new or helpful out of some of these recurring topics. Now I don't need this thread to be all sunshine and rainbows (what's the fun in that anyway?), but sometimes I feel like people are tearing these characters or individual lines from episodes we haven't even seen yet into peaces by over-analyzing them or by ignoring the context. This is not pointed to anyone particular and I myself am guilty of doing so as well once or twice. I know that I may come across as a bit of a "yes-man" since I usually find my way to be okay with the show's direction and have kinda few groans at the end of the day. I am not always pleased with the writers' choices and there's nothing wrong with questioning them. I just really hope that we as well as the writers can start moving on from all this break up stuff. I don't need Shamy to be perfect, they will both be jerks sometimes, Sheldon will always need a little bit of assistance and guidance and Amy will have to accept that some things cannot be changed (which I hope she already has of course),  Sheldon will always be somewhat annoying pain in the neck and Amy will still be annoyed by him from time to time (I don't know about you, but my SO is the person who often annoys me the most, even though/because I love him more than anyone. No? Just me and my cold Northerner heart? Carry on). To me these are the facts of their characters and their relationship. And I don't see them as a bad thing, watching perfect couples doing perfectly, well who wants that :wink: They have their flaws, as a couple and as individuals, but they can make it work together as the Pasadena's favorite power couple they still are, at least in my aforementioned cold Northerner heart.  I'm fine with people having concerns and voicing them, I really am, but I feel like no matter what the writers will do, it won't please everyone. Someone will always have a problem with it. And even when we get so much goodness (do I even need to make a list lol), someone will always point out the one thing we didn't get or the one thing that should've be done differently. But I guess that's what we do here and it's all fine. And us, a little more positive (everyone who knows me irl would burst into laughter right now, you positive? Get outta town!) or satisfied fans just have to try to keep our buzz alive (wine helps, I've tried). With all that being said, I still hope I get to continue to enjoy all these great posts, even if I wouldn't always agree with the content.  

I don't even know if I had any greater point or meaning in this post, just my endless rambling on this dark and cold Monday night. I hope no one is offended by any of this, that's not my purpose. I'm just a harmless not-so-much-of-a-giant from a foreign land *insert Leonard's puppy eyes gif*

You scared me with following up "giant from a foreign land" with the word "insert" lol....I get it, and the thread DOES look like we turned the clock back pre- reconciliation and are having the same debates that we had then. I will point out, though, that a lot more of us appeared to be on the same page about issues back then than we now appear to. If you look at the debates now, they started off as analyzing TRs like they always do. "It's what we do" lol. The Meemaw episode (the theme is "blame" right?) and the follow up episode with FWF (another "blame" theme as Amy is taken to task again) conjured up the recent debates. It wasn't born out of the blue. The division between our groups, in my opinion, now comes from the knowledge of all the Shamy goodness that came out of Earworm and then sex. Yup, no arguing that those moments are precious to watch (yeah, I'm a guy and I used the word precious). And I mean that. I really enjoyed them, premature as sex might have been in my opinion (pun intended).....

Some folks believe the criticism seen recently here should be reduced or be non existent because of those two episodes. Some of us, despite enjoying those episodes, are still a bit leary and the 9 episode melodrama known as the "break up" is still too fresh in our memory to allow us to be at ease quite yet. Neither group is right or wrong, it all has to do with where we are coming from emotionally with that. Emotions are an individual thing and isn't something easily quantified. Some of us share the same opinion, some don't. That's ok! Like you, I enjoy reading all posts whether I agree or not, it's entertaining and at times enlightening. 

I do draw a line, however, when individuals start labeling other posts because they don't agree with them. I also draw the line at individuals who want to tell folks in a discussion thread to keep their opinions limited to the episodes that have been televised, and that opinions related to a TR should be silenced. Last I check the DT and the Shamy thread includes spoilers, which is what a TR is, and presumably they are allowed on the threads so that people CAN opine and discuss the issues at hand, albeit in an over-analyzing state..Its what we do. :)

I know where you're coming from Blue, and I'm definitely not offended in the least. There are times when I take a look (and I've done it recently) at my posts and tell myself to take a break, because I DO beat a dead horse. Can't help myself though, it's what "I" do lol.

But in the interest of trying to stay "positive" I will try to reduce, but not eliminate, my critical posts the rest of the week! No Bazinga implied or desired!

 

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Since a lot of you don't read the S9 Discussion Thread (and I don't blame you), I wanted to post here what I posted there regarding concerned speculations about the upcoming episode: 

With the Meemaw/Amy conversation bringing up so much concern among this thread - especially regarding Amy's responses "I'm his best shot" and "You don't know what I put up with" (or whatever they actually are, lol) - I think back to when Bernadette met Howard's mom... I wonder what kind of tough exterior she had to wear to convince Mrs. Wolowitz that she was the one for Howard despite being a strong-willed Catholic girl who like Amy and Sheldon had also broken up with Howard earlier on - regardless of the reason being different from Amy's, a breakup happened, and Amy's reason for a break (that turned into a breakup) was no less justified. Bernadette had to face an over-protective mother-in-law and explain how she was essentially taking her pride and joy away from her forever. I can easily see Bernadette and Mrs. Wolowitz having had a similar conversation to Amy and Meemaw's, and seeing how Howardette turned out makes me optimistic for Shamy. 

And I know that we never actually got to see Bernadette and Mrs. Wolowitz meet, and in the aftermath we learned that their meeting went extremely well, but I have to assume that with the personality they painted Mrs. Wolowitz, her meeting with Bernadette might not have been perfect off the bat. I really can imagine them bonding over "you don't know what I put up with with him" similarly to how Amy and Meemaw begin to connect. 

That's my thought process going into the episode, but I don't really have too many expectations otherwise. I look forward to seeing how Sheldon stands by his Amy and how things end on a happy note.

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13 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

I'm not saying Meemaw "have to" like Amy. I just hope that she does because before this episode, we know Meemaw gave her cookie recipe to Amy so I think it's safe to say she has no problems with Amy before.

It's not about Meemaw or Amy. It's about the writers who somehow still are not over the break up, so much so that they feel the need to bring it up every now and then. Maybe Meemaw will like Amy, maybe not. They can let Meemaw and Amy have conflicts for a lot of reasons, but what reason did they give us? The break up.

And I'm Ok with more discussion about the break up, just not in this way. Because all I can see is Sheldon acting mature and considerate and brave to talk about his heartbreak and how much he had learned from it while Amy sitting quietly next to him, acting somewhat indifferent. I want Amy to show that she's heartbroken because Sheldon was heartbroken, that though the break up is not her fault, still she feels sorry because what Sheldon had been through makes her heart ache. I want to see the 909 Amy, asking if Sheldon was doing Ok. 

I want the writers to either stop talking about the break up, so that us audience can make the assumption that they have already had THAT conversation off screen and make peace with the whole storyline, or to show us both sides of the story, not Sheldon saying "I was so heartbroken because of the break up. But I now know how important you are to me.", with Amy going like "Oh really? That's great. I'm so touched."

Again, all of these are my wishes. I'm not saying the writers "have to" do anything.

And I hope that she will eventually get over this and like her as well. 

Well I think that Meemaw not liking Amy because of the break up was the most believable or natural reason for her to not like her. I would've been confused if she'd been totally fine with the break up and then disliked her for some other reason, like you said she seemed to not have a problem with her when she gave her the cookie recipe. I think it only makes sense that she'd be concerned because of the break up. And we have to remember that this is just from Meemaws POV, I'm not putting the blame only on Amy. Meemaw, however, won't observe this break up objectively. You said that this isn't about Meemaw, but the writers being obssessed with the break up, but aren't the writers trying to write what seems natural to the characters? And to me the break up seems like the most "real" reason for her to be upset with Amy. Sure one can argue why she needed to be upset with Amy at all, but I felt it was to be expected. 

Oh I hope that the writers will move on from this break up and not bring it up every now and then like this, I'm totally with you on that one. I really do wish they will or that we'll see that long overdue Talk between them. 

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1 hour ago, 2L344 said:

Why was the only available option for her to go on dates rather than- oo, I don't know- throw herself into work? Take up sky-diving? Decide to agitate to have her made-up language recognised by the UN?

 

 

Because those things Amy would have done alone or would not have involved so many of the cast, is my guess. I suggest the dating killed two or three birds with one stone for the programme-makers and the viewers.  Look how they enjoyed going through the potential dates on the app, so much so they hooked Amy's pink phone up to the TV and  made a drinking game out of it. We could see where Stuart stood too, with very little extra script time. It also gave us a chance to see how the men as well as the  girls were intending to keep Amy in their social circle, emphasised by Raj's rejection of an Indian candidate by saying, 'We've got one of those.' We.

If they hadn't all been there, only Amy would have seen Dave's texts come through. Then we wouldn't have had the spying  scenes and Bernie's backing into Dave's car. And that handshake. :)

So, were it not for Amy's dating ventures, there would have had to be more scenes and escapades written for the others, and  time is limited. If  the episodes were 45 minutes long, perhaps Amy might have been shown doing something solo. I like the suggestions.

The dating also confirmed the way in which Amy had developed socially. It showed how she could stand on her own feet without any of the gang around her. She told Sheldon she'd been on six dates by Thanksgiving with three men. If my maths is right, bearing in mind she'd seen Dave three times, another one had taken her out again. Perhaps she'd had invitations from both the other two that she'd yet to take up. It's hard to imagine the Amy we first saw at the end of S3 being asked for a repeat date by any normal man who was 'looking'.

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Rambling thoughts...(I had a couple of beers with my burger tonight)  

If Meemaw knows about their history, then she knows that Amy & Sheldon have broken up twice.  She should know, her daughter Mary, flew to California to "fix things".  Now I understand that they weren't officially boyfriend/girlfriend at that time, but it was bad enough that Leonard had to call Mrs. Cooper for help. Twice this girl has been at the center of her Moonpie's unhappiness.

It sounds like Amy was being Amy the entire time.  I like that...Amy doesn't take crap from anyone, not Sheldon, not his Meemaw.

I said it before in an earlier post, I get the feeling that she is testing them both, not just Amy.

I've been married for 32 years, I couldn't tell you if my husband's grandmother had a nickname for him.  I never thought to ask, he never mentioned it.  I personally don't know anyone who's grandmother had a nickname for them....except for me (LOL).  I had a huge family on my dad's side with a lot of cousins named Marie, so we all were given nicknames so as not to confuse us....mine was Mitzi.

I get the angst, I really do, but I also am a great believer in the wonderful editing that they do and the sharp eye that the producers/writers have on this pair.

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27 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

Because those things Amy would have done alone or would not have involved so many of the cast, is my guess. I suggest the dating killed two or three birds with one stone for the programme-makers and the viewers.  Look how they enjoyed going through the potential dates on the app, so much so they hooked Amy's pink phone up to the TV and  made a drinking game out of it. We could see where Stuart stood too, with very little extra script time. It also gave us a chance to see how the men as well as the  girls were intending to keep Amy in their social circle, emphasised by Raj's rejection of an Indian candidate by saying, 'We've got one of those.' We.

If they hadn't all been there, only Amy would have seen Dave's texts come through. Then we wouldn't have had the spying  scenes and Bernie's backing into Dave's car. And that handshake. :)

So, were it not for Amy's dating ventures, there would have had to be more scenes and escapades written for the others, and  time is limited. If  the episodes were 45 minutes long, perhaps Amy might have been shown doing something solo. I like the suggestions.

The dating also confirmed the way in which Amy had developed socially. It showed how she could stand on her own feet without any of the gang around her. She told Sheldon she'd been on six dates by Thanksgiving with three men. If my maths is right, bearing in mind she'd seen Dave three times, another one had taken her out again. Perhaps she'd had invitations from both the other two that she'd yet to take up. It's hard to imagine the Amy we first saw at the end of S3 being asked for a repeat date by any normal man who was 'looking'.

Lol you've quoted wowbagger FYI....like you, I responded to his quote.

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Personally, I think that the tone of Amy and Meemaw's confrontation is set by Meemaw. If Amy was a more socially adept, cool-headed person with less emotional attachment to the issue, she might have been able to deflect Meemaw more calmly, but to be honest I think it still would have required an almost superhuman, emotionally sophisticated person to be able to manage the entire situation with pure grace under that kind of fire.

The moment Sheldon's back is turned, Meemaw turns on Amy and goes right for the jugular - I'm here to size you up in person because you hurt him and I don't think you're good enough for him. Amy's blindsided, the attack is up in her grill, and the stakes - Sheldon - are the highest they can possibly be. Meemaw is the one who has the problem and she's the one who sets the tone of the entire confrontation, and I think Amy is so shocked, angry, hurt, and defensive that she responds in kind to what she gets. Maybe it's not the best or smartest reaction, but it's certainly a very human and understandable one.

I'm not even sure how she could be more humble or defer to Meemaw here, because she can't risk giving an inch of ground in an argument that she's not good enough for Sheldon. She loves him and you'd expect her to be willing to fight for him, no matter who it's against.

Meemaw and Amy both love Sheldon, and so their emotional stakes are at their highest which drive their rationality and self-control down to it's lowest. Meemaw at least had time to THINK about how she would approach Amy, and she still pulls this attack on her. Amy is put into a totally reactionary position. Maybe she takes the bait and plays into Meemaw's hands by giving Meemaw the fight she wants, but I have a really hard time holding that against Amy considering the situation and the stakes at hand.

As much as I love Sheldon, I can't deny that he's difficult. At the family Christmas party this year I was surprised to get into a conversation about TBBT, and even come to Sheldon's defense, because the question dropped on the table by all of my family members was: why is anyone even friends with that guy? How does he even manage to have a girlfriend? He's horrible! (Ouch.)

Frankly, I think that the show writers also think he's a bit horrible, and sometimes they can really run with it too far. The Itchy Sweater and Table Polarization episodes are two in which Sheldon's character went way too far into downright cruel and selfish behavior; I consider those two episodes to have gone into OOC territory because it just took Sheldon way too far. Nevertheless, those episodes are canon and Sheldon's behavior during them have stuck in a lot of people's minds, and the writers were clearly willing to take him all the way there. People having enough of Sheldon and deciding to end things with him is a running theme of the show; Amy's dumped him, Leonard's almost left a number of times, Penny knows when to retreat to her own apartment and slam the door in his face, the 3 guys together have done things to try to avoid Sheldon or exclude him from their activities several times - hell, the last aired episode was about the gang all deciding to leave the fucking state of California just to get away from the guy. Barely being able to tolerate Sheldon's personality has been an issue from the beginning, and continues to be up to...well, practically just yesterday.

Part of what drew me into the Shamy ship was the fact that Amy and Sheldon actually related to each other, and she seemed oddly immune. Even later, as she got to know him better, she said that his quirks, that others found rage-incuding, she found cute as a button! Eventually, though, Sheldon got to be too much, even for Amy. I think that the writers did this deliberately to push Sheldon to rock bottom so that they could begin to rehabilitate him. Maybe. To be honest, they have Sheldon go through unbearable periods and then those periods were he manages to win people back, but the lessons don't necessarily stick; eventually he's up to his old devices and we cycle through the same scenarios once again.

Exactly how difficult Sheldon can be often depends on who is on the script; it's not really consistent and it's crossed the line a few times. I *think* that the writers expect us to simply be sympathetic to Amy because how could we not be sympathetic to Amy? It's Sheldon. But at the same time, they do a lot to make us pretty sympathetic to him and his heartbreak over the breakup, and I really thought that they spent a lot of time in season 8 showing him genuinely trying really hard.

In the end, though, why the need for blame of one party of another? And is the show trying to lead us down that road, trying to get people to take sides between this couple, or do they want us to root for them to be together as a unit, and are they showing that it always takes two to tango? That neither Sheldon or Amy are perfect, and that they are just two human beings who are deeply in love with each other trying to navigate that love? A struggle which, no matter what the fairy tales say, never has a true "and they lived happily ever after," because all relationships, especially a marriage, always require a certain degree of work and understanding and maintenance?

 

 

Edited by Lionne
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23 minutes ago, Lionne said:

Personally, I think that the tone of Amy and Meemaw's confrontation is set by Meemaw, don't you? If Amy was a more socially savvy, cool-headed person, she might have been able to deflect Meemaw more calmly and more gracefully, but to be honest I think that still would have required an incredibly sophisticated person to be able to manage the entire situation with pure grace under that kind of fire.

Amy is hoping to make a good impression on Meemaw, but right away there are hints that something in wrong. Meemaw praises Penny for having a career, and then is transparently hypocritical by treating Amy's career differently. Something is in the wind here; any human being would begin to feel even more nervous and uncomfortable. Then, the moment Sheldon's back is turned, Meemaw turns on Amy and goes right for the jugular - I'm here to size you up in person because you hurt him and I don't think you're good enough for him. Amy's blindsided, the attack is up in her grill, and the stakes - Sheldon - are the highest they can possibly be. Meemaw is the one who has the problem and she's the one who sets the tone of the entire confrontation, and I think Amy is so shocked, angry, hurt, and defensive that she responds in kind to what she gets. Maybe it's not the best or smartest reaction, but it's certainly a very human and understandable one.

I'm not even sure how she could be more gracious or humble to Meemaw here, because she can't give an inch of ground in an argument that she's not good enough for Sheldon, she loves him and you'd expect her to be willing to fight for him, no matter who it's against.

Meemaw and Amy both love Sheldon, and so their emotional stakes are at their highest which drive their rationality and self-control down to it's lowest. Meemaw at least had time to THINK about how she would approach Amy, and she still pulls this attack on her, Amy is put into a totally reactionary position. Maybe she takes the bait and plays into Meemaw's hands by giving Meemaw the fight she wants, but I have a really hard time holding that against the poor girl considering the situation and the stakes at hand.

 

I agree with you in that Meemaw set the tone and had the agenda. But I think It comes down to whether or not Amy believes she made mistakes in the break up. If it's one-sided (Sheldon and his antics) then Amy has no reason to eat crow so to speak...she ain't taking any junk from anyone including Meemaw if she thinks she's in the right. I am becoming to think this is the case these days. We never hear her feel sorry or bad about how things went. Yes, she gets her heart broken in 9x09 when Sheldon turns her down, but we never KNOW if she accepts her role in how things ended (I assumed she did back then, and that scene in her car was evidence of her realization that her choices to end the relationship had consequences). 

At the beginning of 9x10 Amy tells Bernie that she called Dave again because Sheldon shot her down. We never see the emotions back up on her, with regret settling in. Maybe it happened off camera, maybe not. We are left to guess depending on where we stand with it. Yes she loves Sheldon, yes she wants him back, and her "I love you too" and her excited state is evidence of how much she missed him and loves him. BUT loving him, missing him, wanting him is not an admission of regret or sorrow or accountability. The closest thing we get is her admission she is "silly" sometimes. If folks want to see her muttering that to herself as Sheldon walks away as an admission of her own failings in the break up, so be it. I don't....

So at this point does Amy feel any responsibility for her choices in the break up? Is it all on Sheldon? Doesn't seem Amy does, because if she DID then maybe that regret, that "guilt" if you will, would have guided her in the things she chose to say to Meemaw. She might have been a little more conciliatory in her words, and maybe met Meemaw halfway even if Meemaw came off as an overprotective and presumptuous blow hard. Because Amy would have seen assurances were needed, and that she DID have to make some for the good of the family and her relationship in it. She doesn't need to grovel and throw herself at Meemaw's feet in an over-the-top Shakespearean delivery of a sobbing Amy....but she could've softened the conversation a bit, and taken the high road a bit because she DID have some culpability in what happened, and Meemaw in all her interfering glory had a point to make.

But again, that's assuming Amy felt regret and thought she made her share of mistakes. Will FWF show she in fact does have some regrets? Sounds like she dodges that issue in that episode too, but we will see. 

To those of you on this forum who think Amy has nothing to regret, this obviously won't interest you lol....

 

Edited by 2L344
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13 minutes ago, 2L344 said:

I agree with you in that Meemaw set the tone and had the agenda. But I think It comes down to whether or not Amy believes she made mistakes in the break up. If it's one-sided (Sheldon and his antics) then Amy has no reason to eat crow so to speak...she ain't taking any junk from anyone including Meemaw if she thinks she's in the right. I am becoming to think this is the case these days. We never hear her feel sorry or bad about how things went. Yes, she gets her heart broken in 9x09 when Sheldon turns her down, but we never KNOW if she accepts her role in how things ended (I assumed she did back then, and that scene in her car was evidence of her realization that her choices to end the relationship had consequences). 

At the beginning of 9x10 Amy tells Bernie that she called Dave again because Sheldon shot her down. We never see the emotions back up on her, with regret settling in. Maybe it happened off camera, maybe not. We are left to guess depending on where we stand with it. Yes she loves Sheldon, yes she wants him back, and her "I love you too" and her excited state is evidence of how much she missed him and loves him. BUT loving him, missing him, wanting him is not an admission of regret or sorrow or accountability. The closest thing we get is her admission she is "silly" sometimes. If folks want to see her muttering that to herself as Sheldon walks away as an admission of her own failings in the break up, so be it. I don't....

So at this point does Amy feel any responsibility for her choices in the break up? Is it all on Sheldon? Doesn't seem Amy does, because if she DID then maybe that regret, that "guilt" if you will, would have guided her in the things she chose to say to Meemaw. She might have been a little more conciliatory in her words, and maybe met Meemaw halfway even if Meemaw came off as an overprotective and presumptuous blow hard. Because Amy would have seen assurances were needed, and that she DID have to make some for the good of the family and her relationship in it. She doesn't need to grovel and throw herself at Meemaw's feet in an over-the-top Shakespearean delivery of a sobbing Amy....but she could've softened the conversation a bit, and taken the high road a bit because she DID have some culpability in what happened, and Meemaw in all her interfering glory had a point to make.

But again, that's assuming Amy felt regret and thought she made her share of mistakes. Will FWF show she in fact does have some regrets? Sounds like she dodges that issue in that episode too, but we will see. 

To those of you on this forum who think Amy has nothing to regret, this obviously won't interest you lol....

 

From what I saw in this season so far, I think the writers blame Amy (entirely), considering this break up. Although I don't agree with them, I can understand them. What I don't understand is that they blame Amy yet refuse to let Amy make some sort of apology. It's like creating problems deliberately without solving them. What's the point? 

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If Amy should feel guilt or apologize for the breakup is an extremely tough issue. All she wanted in the beginning was some space, and Sheldon did not respect her boundaries at all, and then threw some insults on the pile. In the end, Amy made a snap decision out of pure anger, and I think she was justified in being absolutely infuriated. She would have been justified in staying in that angry position for awhile, but even immediately after she doubted herself. But it was her friends who told her she was in the right, and encouraged her to stay broken up in that moment. So she did, in large part because she wasn't sure what she was feeling - she already didn't know what she was feeling BEFORE the break up. In some ways, the break up might have felt like a relief - she didn't have to worry or be exhausted by the relationship anymore.

And how can she apologize? I'm sorry I asked you for some space and you were up in my grill demanding an answer in 11 hours. I'm sorry I suggested that you not come with me to Bernie's because it's going to be uncomfortable but you came anyway. I'm sorry that I was trying to watch Penny and Leonard get married by video feed, and you couldn't shut up and tried to force me to make a decision by insulting the fact I was getting older and my fertility less viable. I'm sorry that you drove me to the point where I had to chose between being in a relationship with you or having an ounce of self-respect left - yeah, I really just tossed everything we had over nothing. What a silly girl I am.

Absolutely not. She can't really apologize for all that.

But where things get murky, and I think the lesson that Amy learned, is the fight that lead to Amy wanting some space in the first place. It's the struggle and central conflict of their entire relationship up to this point - the pacing of their relationship. As Penny once told Leonard, people have a right to set a pace to a relationship that they are comfortable with. Sheldon's pace was painfully, almost absurdly slow, and Amy had to reign herself in really hard for YEARS to let the relationship play out at Sheldon's pace rather than her own. That took an emotional toll on her. If there is anything that confuses me about people who lay blame on Amy's feet, or find her stance in the break up came out of nowhere, it's the idea that Amy's frustration with Sheldon's pace in the relationship, or the constant need to hold herself back, or the fact that she often put herself out there only to get slapped down by him - sometimes brutally - did not have some sort of cumulative effect on her psyche. Not to mention his damn 45 day train trip that she forgave and understood with the patience of a saint and he never apologized for.

To me, Amy finally got emotionally tired and dispirited literally years after most people would have put Sheldon in their rearview mirror. And she still didn't actually want a break up. She wanted some time to think. That was all she wanted, and considering that Sheldon took his own 45 day exit to get his head clear, and she was totally supportive of that, telling him "thanks for checking in" and telling him to take care of himself, Sheldon owed her the same degree of understanding. He didn't give it.

As far as the pace of the relationship, I'm not saying that Sheldon is wrong or a bad person to need to move at his own pace, and I understand a lot of the emotional baggage and issues that are at stake with him that lead him to proceed at the pace that he did. Amy was often confused when she ran into certain walls and his demands for a slow pace, but at the end of the day she went out of her way to see and do things his way. Some people say she did this because she was determined to get sex out of him, I say that she did it because she loved him.

Amy could push him at times, but when she ran into those walls she always ended up pulling back. She often gave him offers to move forward, but she never gave him ultimatums. Amy lavished affection on him, often bent over backwards to make him happy. Sometimes the ends she went to were too far, such as teddy bears for stubbing his toe or bobblehead dolls to get him through a sports game, but she was constantly looking to negotiate with him.

And she never gave him any ultimatums, even up until the end. She was emotionally spent from not getting what she needed to thrive out of the relationship, and she didn't tell him there was anything he had to do, she knew she was the one who needed to take a step back and analyze herself and get a grip on how she felt. She never put the stakes or the burden of the relationship on him, or made it anything that he had to do or change or give in order to keep her, she knew it was really about herself and her emotional state and just wanted some room to think and get a grip. She didn't give him a demand, she said, "I'm the one who is tired, I'm the one who is upset, I'm the one who is exhausted in this relationship, I'm the one who has to sort myself out." That is being accountable, the breakup happened because Sheldon couldn't live with the uncertainty and couldn't respect the boundary, so it's on him. 

I don't know, and none of us can know, what Amy would have decided or how things would have worked out if Sheldon had been capable of giving her some space. Would she eventually have come to the same conclusion that she did after a 6 month break up? It's so difficult to say.

And I think where it ends up boiling down to is really the most difficult to navigate, because it's important to sort out the murky mess of what's love, romance, and sex, all of which are different and yet eternally linked in ways not even a genius can figure out. I think that Amy is a sexual person, and that sex is an expression of love and desire. The more Amy fell in love with Sheldon, the greater her sexual urgency grew because the attraction she felt for him was not just of the mind, and it was not just as friends, it was the complete and full picture of romantic love. The deeper in love she fell with him, the more the desire to marry and make babies with the guy. And in the end, just when she has completely given up on her romantic notions and thinks he's moved on and it's over, everything she's ever wanted - big romantic speech at her door! Swept up in passionate kisses! Sex! Well, that all comes together so...she actually....gets what she wanted? Because she gave up wanting it and was ready to accept the situation as it was, and as Sheldon wanted it....but then he decided what he wanted and made a play for it. And he won. And when he won she also won. And everyone is really happy? All's well that end's well?

Eh....no, life isn't a fairy tale. There's no actual end until you die. Amy's actions have some consequences, just like Sheldon's actions had their consequences too. But apologize? What EXACTLY does Amy have to apologize for? Maybe there's something murky in there....like....not waiting patiently enough for Sheldon? You really think she wasn't patient enough? For making ultimatums of him and punishing him with a break up when he didn't change to meet her demands? Except she didn't do that.

So what exactly is Amy supposed to apologize for, considering how things were written and events transpiring as they did? The writers have said that the break up was two sided, and that they don't want to get into any sort of issue about blame. I think that Amy and Sheldon are wise not to get into an argument about "who is to blame" for their breakup, because this is a love affair and it always takes two to tango. Their issues go really deep, and if they both had some culpability with the break up, and for the two of them to try to assign blame just opens wounds and casts about for something which really can't be defined. They broke up. It changed them. They both learned things. They got back together and are happy about it. They've suddenly made some pretty huge leaps forward in their relationship. What would there be to gain about turning back?

But this time I'm really coming down on Amy's side because I find the high expectations of her to be unfair. The woman is not perfect, and there wouldn't be much of a story if she was.

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

From what I saw in this season so far, I think the writers blame Amy (entirely), considering this break up. Although I don't agree with them, I can understand them. What I don't understand is that they blame Amy yet refuse to let Amy make some sort of apology. It's like creating problems deliberately without solving them. What's the point? 

Yup! In defense of the writers, I think they did show Sheldon in a bad light enough for us to be sympathetic to Amy's plight, which shows that the writers lay some of the blame on Sheldon being Sheldon the jerk. However, they are telling Sheldon's story, as much as I would've liked the story to be about growth and realization for BOTH of them. Because it's the Sheldon Show for 9 episodes, Amy comes off (to me) as being an apathetic, disaffected, and at times an annoyed and cold Amy during that break up. I DO believe Amy is equally responsible for the break up, but like you said, the writers as of yet have not allowed Amy to take responsibility for the blame. She hasn't shown regret for her role in it.

In another post I use this seemingly lack of regret to explain why Amy might have come off as equally blunt and harsh towards Meemaw in that upcoming episode. Because had Amy accepted that she made some mistakes, she might not have been as defensive and might have approached Meemaw differently. Some say Amy is "standing up to" Meemaw, and maybe this is true who knows. I'll have to see how it plays out. But the argument can be made right now that it's an arrogant Amy, one who feels that she's being attacked by Meemaw for no good reason, because she has yet to deal with or accept any responsibility in the break up.

As the viewing audience, if we look at the break up from Amy POV and ignore everything else we know, its easy enough to see that Amy might see herself as a reasonable person who had no choice but to initiate a break up with a guy who didn't really care, and had no choice but to date other men especially since Sheldon was dating. It's easy to see that Amy might see herself as the reasonable gal who, after missing Sheldon at some point because she still loves him despite his behavior towards her, did the right thing by trying to restart the relationship after the aquarium. It was SHELDON who broke her heart that evening on the drive home. More evidence to Amy that he didn't care. Amy tells Bernie, as if SHE was a victim, that Sheldon "shot her down" as proof of that mindset. Amy sees herself as the person who is suffering, not Sheldon. And when Sheldon knocks on her door, it's easy to believe that Amy could have seen the situation as Sheldon FINALLY coming to his senses (which he did). They profess their mutual love, they get each other back, and the rest is history....

No where in the scenarios, from Amy's perspective, is she accountable for the break up and her role in it. And moreover, it appears Sheldon now embraces the need for the break up, which is swell for him and makes him look great. He's the bigger man for it. But what of Amy? It's as if the writers want her to see herself as being the Saint in the break up. And if she had stuck to her guns, and Sheldon had his epiphany without the aquarium episode, and threw himself at her doorstep, then maybe Amy COULD be blameless. Instead, they had Amy return to Sheldon unconditionally, which now begs for an explanation. It's important.  In my opinion, the only real explanation is that she regretted her decision, underestimated her love for Sheldon and overreacted enough to initiate the break up. Her desire for a "normal" relationship clouded her judgement. And all of this, in my opinion, is cause for regret and Amy is accountable for her own decision making, just as Sheldon is accountable for his behavior. Both have consequences. Both should be sorry for their part in the break up. 

Maybe Meemaw has no right to know this intimate frankness and responsibility sharing. But when she is making this point to Amy, this was an opportunity for her to come clean and mend fences. Amy doesn't go there. And it may be because she feels she shares no responsibility in the break up. And to me, that's a problem. That's my take on it anyway, I know it's not the popular vote these days. 

Like ive said, I really like Amy on the show. and this is why I am so critical these days of the way she is portrayed. I wish she could be shown as Sheldon's equal in the growth department, and shown to have her own epiphany by showing she "gets it", and that she could have handled things better. Because in doing so, I wouldn't have anymore worries about where Shamy was headed. As it stands, I still worry a little for them....

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7 hours ago, bluebird said:

As much as I enjoy reading different opinions and at their best they can create insightful conversation here, I'm kinda tired of reading the same arguments over and over. Don't get me wrong, everyone is 100% entitled to express their concerns, but maaan I feel like no one is getting anything new or helpful out of some of these recurring topics. Now I don't need this thread to be all sunshine and rainbows (what's the fun in that anyway?), but sometimes I feel like people are tearing these characters or individual lines from episodes we haven't even seen yet into peaces by over-analyzing them or by ignoring the context. This is not pointed to anyone particular and I myself am guilty of doing so as well once or twice. I know that I may come across as a bit of a "yes-man" since I usually find my way to be okay with the show's direction and have kinda few groans at the end of the day. I am not always pleased with the writers' choices and there's nothing wrong with questioning them. I just really hope that we as well as the writers can start moving on from all this break up stuff. I don't need Shamy to be perfect, they will both be jerks sometimes, Sheldon will always need a little bit of assistance and guidance and Amy will have to accept that some things cannot be changed (which I hope she already has of course),  Sheldon will always be somewhat annoying pain in the neck and Amy will still be annoyed by him from time to time (I don't know about you, but my SO is the person who often annoys me the most, even though/because I love him more than anyone. No? Just me and my cold Northerner heart? Carry on). To me these are the facts of their characters and their relationship. And I don't see them as a bad thing, watching perfect couples doing perfectly, well who wants that :wink: They have their flaws, as a couple and as individuals, but they can make it work together as the Pasadena's favorite power couple they still are, at least in my aforementioned cold Northerner heart.  I'm fine with people having concerns and voicing them, I really am, but I feel like no matter what the writers will do, it won't please everyone. Someone will always have a problem with it. And even when we get so much goodness (do I even need to make a list lol), someone will always point out the one thing we didn't get or the one thing that should've be done differently. But I guess that's what we do here and it's all fine. And us, a little more positive (everyone who knows me irl would burst into laughter right now, you positive? Get outta town!) or satisfied fans just have to try to keep our buzz alive (wine helps, I've tried). With all that being said, I still hope I get to continue to enjoy all these great posts, even if I wouldn't always agree with the content.  

I don't even know if I had any greater point or meaning in this post, just my endless rambling on this dark and cold Monday night. I hope no one is offended by any of this, that's not my purpose. I'm just a harmless not-so-much-of-a-giant from a foreign land *insert Leonard's puppy eyes gif*

Perfection - that's what this post is :) 

Agree totally !

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On January 24, 2016 at 6:26 AM, 2L344 said:

6x20 The Tenure Turbulence was a fun one.

Amy: You're all wasting your time. Sheldon is the most qualified for the job. And no amount of gravity-defying bosom is going to change that.

Sheldon: I must say, I go back and forth between this whole boyfriend-girlfriend thing, but those moments when you worship me really keep you in the running

 

I liked the Amy that worshipped the ground Sheldon walked on lol

Soon followed by "Don't just stand there. Take your breasts out!"

Then later "I should've taken my breasts out when I had the chance..."

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Yep, can't wait either to see the episode! And really curious how all our theories will turn out once they are faced with reality... :shy:

Nibbler is right that over-analyzing of the TRs is what we do here. And April is right in pointing out that we need a new TR asap, because for the moment we have been discussing the same TRs for a week and yes, the same thoughts and theories are repeated.

So I won't talk about that. But I have a question: Does anyone know a person that is really annoying and that he/she has to deal with constantly, i.e. in the family or at work? So someone who makes your blood pressure rise every day? And if yes, how do you deal with it? I noticed that Amy tends to change the subject when the discussion gets tricky. Or tries to avoid Sheldon.

I had a collegue a few years ago in the UK and she was driving everyone mad! Ten times Bernadette! Fortunately since the channel was between us I only had to deal with her emails...but that was enough.:shout:

After some time I started to (don't laugh) sing 'I feel pretty' every time I got an email from her. Of course it was a joke, but it worked! And it made everyone in the German office laugh...they were actually looking forward to her next emails. :derisive: So: Thank you Jack Nicholson and the authors of Anger Management! :biggrin:

Maybe Amy should try this when Sheldon is in his annoying mood...or Bernie's boss every day... xD

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A new TR will only help if it doesn't have anything to do with Amy and Sheldon's break up. Both the V-Day episode and the Meemaw episode put the break up front and center, which is why we're arguing about it all over again. Damn you, show, but why do we have to carry on about this fucking break up when you sweep so much else under the rug?

I used to have someone like Sheldon in my life, and this is partly why I get my back up against this "respect your elders" business, because it was one of my grandmothers. Her own friends called her "a neanderthal." She's actually manic depressive, or whatever you call that these days, but back from the time when the only treatment for that was alcohol, so she's a bipolar alcoholic, and you can't even imagine how lovely that is to deal with for more than 5 seconds.

And it is difficult, because after years of begging and pleading with her to be treated better, and dealing with all the insults and such, I had to cut off my relationship with her. However, there were plenty of people who felt you have to "respect your elders" and "but she's your grandmother" and I've literally had people grab me by my elbow and drag her to her on her request because they simply feel I HAVE to love her and I HAVE to get along with her and I HAVE to sit there and take insults from her simply because of the matter of blood and age, and let me tell you: that's bullshit. I don't care who is older or how people are blood related, no one has to take abuse from anyone. And this includes the fact that Amy doesn't have to answer to Meemaw or take one ounce of her abuse. I love the fact that Meemaw dishes out her "maybe I don't like you" and Amy dishes that medicine right back at her, with "maybe I don't like you!"

Amy isn't obligated to bow to anyone who is treating her like dirt. Amy has been through enough of that sort of bullying, sheltering and abuse in her life already, and she doesn't need to take another ounce of it from anyone, not even Meemaw. Not because she broke up with Sheldon. I'm sorry, Amy has the right to break up with Sheldon, it's NOT something she should or has to apologize for. Of course breaking up with Sheldon hurts him, and she knew that, but between staying with him or her self-respect, she had to chose her self-respect and he's the one who put her into that position. She might regret hurting him, but still feel she did what she had to do, especially at the time, and it's just not something to apologize for.

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6 hours ago, 2L344 said:

You scared me with following up "giant from a foreign land" with the word "insert" lol....I get it, and the thread DOES look like we turned the clock back pre- reconciliation and are having the same debates that we had then. I will point out, though, that a lot more of us appeared to be on the same page about issues back then than we now appear to. If you look at the debates now, they started off as analyzing TRs like they always do. "It's what we do" lol. The Meemaw episode (the theme is "blame" right?) and the follow up episode with FWF (another "blame" theme as Amy is taken to task again) conjured up the recent debates. It wasn't born out of the blue. The division between our groups, in my opinion, now comes from the knowledge of all the Shamy goodness that came out of Earworm and then sex. Yup, no arguing that those moments are precious to watch (yeah, I'm a guy and I used the word precious). And I mean that. I really enjoyed them, premature as sex might have been in my opinion (pun intended).....

Some folks believe the criticism seen recently here should be reduced or be non existent because of those two episodes. Some of us, despite enjoying those episodes, are still a bit leary and the 9 episode melodrama known as the "break up" is still too fresh in our memory to allow us to be at ease quite yet. Neither group is right or wrong, it all has to do with where we are coming from emotionally with that. Emotions are an individual thing and isn't something easily quantified. Some of us share the same opinion, some don't. That's ok! Like you, I enjoy reading all posts whether I agree or not, it's entertaining and at times enlightening. 

I do draw a line, however, when individuals start labeling other posts because they don't agree with them. I also draw the line at individuals who want to tell folks in a discussion thread to keep their opinions limited to the episodes that have been televised, and that opinions related to a TR should be silenced. Last I check the DT and the Shamy thread includes spoilers, which is what a TR is, and presumably they are allowed on the threads so that people CAN opine and discuss the issues at hand, albeit in an over-analyzing state..Its what we do. :)

I know where you're coming from Blue, and I'm definitely not offended in the least. There are times when I take a look (and I've done it recently) at my posts and tell myself to take a break, because I DO beat a dead horse. Can't help myself though, it's what "I" do lol.

But in the interest of trying to stay "positive" I will try to reduce, but not eliminate, my critical posts the rest of the week! No Bazinga implied or desired!

 

I guess it's just these hiatuses when we have no new episode or TR to discuss when I feel like we're getting nowhere new with some of the discussions. It's the beating of a dead horse which can sometimes be exhausting. Does that mean that those topics should not be discussed? Nope. Do I sometimes wish people could let go of certain dead horses and focus more on other stuff? Sure. Does that mean I'm right and people should take my advice? Nope. Sure these conversations can sometimes bring the mood down, but I'm not here to tell anyone to stop posting something or force them to think positive, even if that works for me. Those two episodes you mentioned almost healed my broken Shamy heart. It's not what it used to be before the break up, but strong enough so I can be a bit more carefree and trustful than some others I guess. I think that's why I'm not bothered by individual lines when in my eyes the whole picture looks great. And you're right, neither "group" is right or wrong, everyone is entitled to feel worried or happy with how things are going and voicing those opinions.

Regarding whether we should or shouldn't be talking about the un-aired episodes. Like you said, this and the DT include spoilers and they are here for us to be discussed. That's what we do, including myself. What happens very often, is that the episode turns out to be a lot different than it sounded in TR. A lot of my own worries have turned out to be unnecessary once I've watched the ep. I know this is nothing new, I was only pointing out that before making up one's mind about how horrible some line is, maybe we could wait for the episode to air and then pass  judgement on it. That doesn't mean that we can't discuss about these lines.

I hope that you, or anyone else, don't feel like you should eliminate certain posts. Whether it's happy gushing over Shamy cuteness or expressing one's worries about the future, this thread is a safe place to do those both and I wish it continues to be that way :) 

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6 hours ago, joyceraye said:

Because those things Amy would have done alone or would not have involved so many of the cast, is my guess. I suggest the dating killed two or three birds with one stone for the programme-makers and the viewers.  Look how they enjoyed going through the potential dates on the app, so much so they hooked Amy's pink phone up to the TV and  made a drinking game out of it. We could see where Stuart stood too, with very little extra script time. It also gave us a chance to see how the men as well as the  girls were intending to keep Amy in their social circle, emphasised by Raj's rejection of an Indian candidate by saying, 'We've got one of those.' We.

If they hadn't all been there, only Amy would have seen Dave's texts come through. Then we wouldn't have had the spying  scenes and Bernie's backing into Dave's car. And that handshake. :)

So, were it not for Amy's dating ventures, there would have had to be more scenes and escapades written for the others, and  time is limited. If  the episodes were 45 minutes long, perhaps Amy might have been shown doing something solo. I like the suggestions.

The dating also confirmed the way in which Amy had developed socially. It showed how she could stand on her own feet without any of the gang around her. She told Sheldon she'd been on six dates by Thanksgiving with three men. If my maths is right, bearing in mind she'd seen Dave three times, another one had taken her out again. Perhaps she'd had invitations from both the other two that she'd yet to take up. It's hard to imagine the Amy we first saw at the end of S3 being asked for a repeat date by any normal man who was 'looking'.

I agree. Dating allowed the writers many possibilities. To further the point, Amy is the girl who went to the prom with a mop. Why wouldn't she want to date and date someone with arms? She knows all too well the heartache of loneliness, which is why she put up with - yes, I said it - Sheldon's many quirks and insults over five years, not to mention a bear minimum of physical affection from him. Realistically, she is a woman in her thirties who presumably wants to marry and possibly have children.  What would she be waiting for, as she even states to Dave. Sheldon's line about her eggs is what pushed her over the edge, after all. That line is the perfect summation of why she left the relationship.

Having said all that, I, like Amy and the gang, love Sheldon.  He's funny, insightful, and marches to the beat of his own drum. I get why Amy returns and I love what they have together. I just also get why she needed a break and why she'd want to test the waters of the dating pool.

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39 minutes ago, bluebird said:

I guess it's just these hiatuses when we have no new episode or TR to discuss when I feel like we're getting nowhere new with some of the discussions. It's the beating of a dead horse which can sometimes be exhausting. Does that mean that those topics should not be discussed? Nope. Do I sometimes wish people could let go of certain dead horses and focus more on other stuff? Sure. Does that mean I'm right and people should take my advice? Nope. Sure these conversations can sometimes bring the mood down, but I'm not here to tell anyone to stop posting something or force them to think positive, even if that works for me. Those two episodes you mentioned almost healed my broken Shamy heart. It's not what it used to be before the break up, but strong enough so I can be a bit more carefree and trustful than some others I guess. I think that's why I'm not bothered by individual lines when in my eyes the whole picture looks great. And you're right, neither "group" is right or wrong, everyone is entitled to feel worried or happy with how things are going and voicing those opinions.

Regarding whether we should or shouldn't be talking about the un-aired episodes. Like you said, this and the DT include spoilers and they are here for us to be discussed. That's what we do, including myself. What happens very often, is that the episode turns out to be a lot different than it sounded in TR. A lot of my own worries have turned out to be unnecessary once I've watched the ep. I know this is nothing new, I was only pointing out that before making up one's mind about how horrible some line is, maybe we could wait for the episode to air and then pass  judgement on it. That doesn't mean that we can't discuss about these lines.

I hope that you, or anyone else, don't feel like you should eliminate certain posts. Whether it's happy gushing over Shamy cuteness or expressing one's worries about the future, this thread is a safe place to do those both and I wish it continues to be that way :) 

thanks and i agree. the problem with voicing an opinion that might be contrary to the masses is that you wind up continually responding to different people about the same topic and trying to justify/defend an OPINION. if it looks like i am beating a dead horse this week its because i am lol, and said so myself. its as if some people forget what ive said and revisit the same points (not you).

i wish people would remember that we are all posting on here because we have a love of the show and in my case also the Shamy relationship. just because a discussion, albeit an old one, pops back up and i (and others) may be critical of amy for example, it doesnt mean we want her head on a stake. like everyone else, we are beholden to what is presented by the writers, and we all react differently to what we see.

personally its these differences i enjoy exploring on this forum. but when the debates turn into arguments and differing opinions and perspectives become a source of exasserbation and frustration for everyone, well thats when i want to just drop conversations all together on the topic. i certainly dont want to earn the label of being the negative nancy who spews unsupported and ridiculous notions about beloved characters.

im not directing any of the above at you bluebird, just using your nice post to illustrate my own issue with some of the talk on here. thanks for letting me vent.

cheers everyone!

Edited by 2L344
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15 minutes ago, 2L344 said:

thanks and i agree. the problem with voicing an opinion that might be contrary to the masses is that you wind up continually responding to different people about the same topic and trying to justify/defend an OPINION. if it looks like i am beating a dead horse this week its because i am lol, and said so myself. its as if some people forget what ive said and revisit the same points (not you).

i wish people would remember that we are all posting on here because we have a love of the show and in my case also the Shamy relationship. just because a discussion, albeit an old one, pops back up and i (and others) may be critical of amy for example, it doesnt mean we want her head on a stake. like everyone else, we are beholden to what is presented by the writers, and we all react differently to what we see.

personally its these differences i enjoy exploring on this forum. but when the debates turn into arguments and differing opinions and perspectives become a source of exasserbation and frustration for everyone, well thats when i want to just drop conversations all together on the topic. i certainly dont want to earn the label of being the negative nancy who spews unsupported and ridiculous notions about beloved characters.

im not directing any of the above at you bluebird, just using your nice post to illustrate my own issue with some of the talk on here. thanks for letting me vent.

cheers everyone!

No problem, vent away my friend. And about the bolted part, I think that's something we should all try to remember, we're all here for the same cause. We want nothing but good things for this couple. When our opinions are drastically differing from each others', it's easy to forget that and feel like the other party is hating or, like you said, demanding Amy's head on a stake. 

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as to the plea to give that poor dead horse a break: I do sympathise, I do, but unfortunately the show has a role to play in this. It has chosen to bring up the breakup and how it affected Sheldon in two episodes now, and to do so in a way that sound, to me, profoundly unsatisfying. And yes, to play into the 'blame' arena.

for the record: I do not think that Amy should apologise, per se, for the breakup. Why should she? She wasn't happy in her relationship and she walked. Yes, Sheldon's feelings were hurt, but that doesn't mean that Amy should endure an unsatisfying relationship.

but it does feel, to me, that every time that the show seems to be getting close to some sense of Amy's REASONS for the break, and importantly what changed in the intervening six months for her to come to the conclusion that a pleasant afternoon with Sheldon was sufficient for her to want to try again-every time we are getting close to fleshing out some of that conjectured offscreen development- the show pulls out the 'blame' card. So it sometimes feels like:

me: So, amy, welcome back. What did you learn when going walkabout?

show: Amy is the fabric softener to Sheldon's heart!

me: Firstly, that line has me reaching for a bucket. Secondly, I knew that?

show: Awwww, see the pretty making out!

me: Very nice. Why was amy flocking back to dave when she knows that what she wants is Sheldon? She....knows she doesn't actually have to date a dude immediately after breaking up with someone, right? She knows she can take time to herself?

show: You're right!

me: I am? What did she learn?

show: Amy makes Sheldon a better man!

me: I mean- I would hope he makes her a better woman too, otherwise what is in it for her?

show: Look! Coitus!

me: ....is that your answer? That's why amy left? It can't be! She came back with no conditions!

show: Look at the pretty coitus!

me: Very nice. No really, very nice. But I mean- look, amy is frequently still patient but exasperated with him. What changed? What did she learn that prompted her to return, if you are going to the same well of eye-rolling with her so often? Why not some other sort of story? Ot doesn't only have to be with Sheldon. Why aren't you letting her display some growth and learning too?

show (through meemaw): How do we know you won't leave again, amy?

me: Er-bluntly put, but reasonably fair point. Yes, Amy. What have you learned and what changed?

show: You don't know what amy puts up with!

me: Yes I do! A lot! A whole freaking lot! Way more than she should! But what-

show: She's Sheldon's best shot!

me: She is his ONLY shot. He doesn't want anyone else. Again, we knew this. What did Amy learn? What has changed? If she wanted back in unconditionally, why did you also have her randomly drift through dates with pasty weirdos (hat tip to borealis)?

show: Let's have raj ask her!

me: Raj? Okay, please have Amy tick him off as well?

show: No raj is a kind gentle romantic who deserves infinite understanding.

me: The hell? No he isn't. Get amy to tick him off!

show: (amy sets up dating service for raj)

me: Facepalm, but okay whatever. Hey, amy, what prompted all that listless rudderless drifting anyway? What have you learned from that time?

show: Sheldon's fine by the way!

me: That isn't what I was asking.

show: Sheldon thinks all this was necessary for him!

me: Ew. But what about amy?

show: Sheldon doesn't blame amy and you shouldn't either!

me: I DON'T blame amy. I just want to understand -

show: Sheldon is better than ever!

me: Never mind.

Edited by wowbagger
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I could write up a huge post and describe in a deriding fashion how this plays out from my perspective but I shall refrain from that for my own sanity. However I will say this:

To me what it ultimately boils down to in these different approaches we seem to have here is whether we accept what the show is giving us and continue to look at the stories from that viewpoint, or to buy into some kind of fantasy scenario in our heads, reject or ignore the answers the show is already providing and then be confused and mad that the show doesn't pander to our specific whims.

Why is Amy such an enigma to some of you guys???? I just don't get it.

capaldigroaningfacepalm.gif.6297498b8ea0

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2 hours ago, wowbagger said:

as to the plea to give that poor dead horse a break: I do sympathise, I do, but unfortunately the show has a role to play in this. It has chosen to bring up the breakup and how it affected Sheldon in two episodes now, and to do so in a way that sound, to me, profoundly unsatisfying. And yes, to play into the 'blame' arena.

for the record: I do not think that Amy should apologise, per se, for the breakup. Why should she? She wasn't happy in her relationship and she walked. Yes, Sheldon's feelings were hurt, but that doesn't mean that Amy should endure an unsatisfying relationship.

but it does feel, to me, that every time that the show seems to be getting close to some sense of Amy's REASONS for the break, and importantly what changed in the intervening six months for her to come to the conclusion that a pleasant afternoon with Sheldon was sufficient for her to want to try again-every time we are getting close to fleshing out some of that conjectured offscreen development- the show pulls out the 'blame' card. So it sometimes feels like:

me: So, amy, welcome back. What did you learn when going walkabout?

show: Amy is the fabric softener to Sheldon's heart!

me: Firstly, that line has me reaching for a bucket. Secondly, I knew that?

show: Awwww, see the pretty making out!

me: Very nice. Why was amy flocking back to dave when she knows that what she wants is Sheldon? She....knows she doesn't actually have to date a dude immediately after breaking up with someone, right? She knows she can take time to herself?

show: You're right!

me: I am? What did she learn?

show: Amy makes Sheldon a better man!

me: I mean- I would hope he makes her a better woman too, otherwise what is in it for her?

show: Look! Coitus!

me: ....is that your answer? That's why amy left? It can't be! She came back with no conditions!

show: Look at the pretty coitus!

me: Very nice. No really, very nice. But I mean- look, amy is frequently still patient but exasperated with him. What did she learn? Why aren't you letting her display some growth and learning too?

show (through meemaw): How do we know you won't leave again, amy?

me: Er-bluntly put, but reasonably fair point. Yes, Amy. What have you learned and what changed?

show: You don't know what amy puts up with!

me: Yes I do! A lot! A whole freaking lot! Way more than she should! But what-

show: She's Sheldon's best shot!

me: She is his ONLY shot. He doesn't want anyone else. Again, we knew this. What did Amy learn? What has changed? If she wanted back in unconditionally, why did you also have her randomly drift through dates with pasty weirdos (hat tip to borealis)?

show: Let's have raj ask her!

me: Raj? Okay, please have Amy tick him off as well?

show: No raj is a kind gentle romantic who deserves infinite understanding.

me: The hell? No he isn't. Get amy to tick him off!

show: (amy sets up dating service for raj)

me: Facepalm, but okay whatever. Hey, amy, what prompted all that listless rudderless drifting anyway? What have you learned from that time?

show: Sheldon's fine by the way!

me: That isn't what I was asking.

show: Sheldon thinks all this was necessary for him!

me: Ew. But what about amy?

show: Sheldon doesn't blame amy and you shouldn't either!

me: I DON'T blame amy. I just want to understand -

show: Sheldon is better than ever!

me: Never mind.

LMAO. Exactly how I feel. And to be honest I don't think they'll ever talk about Amy's feelings  because that's not their intention in the first place. 

Also I hate that the show uses Sheldon's "cool your jets" to somehow tell us audience to cool our jets. I mean??? We never said we want engagement right away. All we need is some old school Shamy and Shamy swaying in the background. It's the the writers who can't let go of all the dramas and bring up the old topic two episodes in a row.

I remember there's an interview where CL emphasizes that Sheldon is a scientist and science is his priority. Great, then let him do science stuff. Please. I haven't seen him at work for a very long time. 

Edited by camelliayao
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