Ship Zone [Spoilers] Shamy: Season 9

[Radar]

6 hours ago, Lionne said:

A new TR will only help if it doesn't have anything to do with Amy and Sheldon's break up. Both the V-Day episode and the Meemaw episode put the break up front and center, which is why we're arguing about it all over again. Damn you, show, but why do we have to carry on about this fucking break up when you sweep so much else under the rug?

I used to have someone like Sheldon in my life, and this is partly why I get my back up against this "respect your elders" business, because it was one of my grandmothers. Her own friends called her "a neanderthal." She's actually manic depressive, or whatever you call that these days, but back from the time when the only treatment for that was alcohol, so she's a bipolar alcoholic, and you can't even imagine how lovely that is to deal with for more than 5 seconds.

And it is difficult, because after years of begging and pleading with her to be treated better, and dealing with all the insults and such, I had to cut off my relationship with her. However, there were plenty of people who felt you have to "respect your elders" and "but she's your grandmother" and I've literally had people grab me by my elbow and drag her to her on her request because they simply feel I HAVE to love her and I HAVE to get along with her and I HAVE to sit there and take insults from her simply because of the matter of blood and age, and let me tell you: that's bullshit. I don't care who is older or how people are blood related, no one has to take abuse from anyone. And this includes the fact that Amy doesn't have to answer to Meemaw or take one ounce of her abuse. I love the fact that Meemaw dishes out her "maybe I don't like you" and Amy dishes that medicine right back at her, with "maybe I don't like you!"

Amy isn't obligated to bow to anyone who is treating her like dirt. Amy has been through enough of that sort of bullying, sheltering and abuse in her life already, and she doesn't need to take another ounce of it from anyone, not even Meemaw. Not because she broke up with Sheldon. I'm sorry, Amy has the right to break up with Sheldon, it's NOT something she should or has to apologize for. Of course breaking up with Sheldon hurts him, and she knew that, but between staying with him or her self-respect, she had to chose her self-respect and he's the one who put her into that position. She might regret hurting him, but still feel she did what she had to do, especially at the time, and it's just not something to apologize for.

Couldn't agree more! Thank you!

And believe me, I know and understand what you are talking about. Actually the similarities between your story and mine scared me...It wasn't my grandma, it was someone even closer...

Edited January 26, 2016 by Radar

[910]

14 hours ago, wowbagger said:

as to the plea to give that poor dead horse a break: I do sympathise, I do, but unfortunately the show has a role to play in this. It has chosen to bring up the breakup and how it affected Sheldon in two episodes now, and to do so in a way that sound, to me, profoundly unsatisfying. And yes, to play into the 'blame' arena.

for the record: I do not think that Amy should apologise, per se, for the breakup. Why should she? She wasn't happy in her relationship and she walked. Yes, Sheldon's feelings were hurt, but that doesn't mean that Amy should endure an unsatisfying relationship.

but it does feel, to me, that every time that the show seems to be getting close to some sense of Amy's REASONS for the break, and importantly what changed in the intervening six months for her to come to the conclusion that a pleasant afternoon with Sheldon was sufficient for her to want to try again-every time we are getting close to fleshing out some of that conjectured offscreen development- the show pulls out the 'blame' card. So it sometimes feels like:

me: So, amy, welcome back. What did you learn when going walkabout?

show: Amy is the fabric softener to Sheldon's heart!

me: Firstly, that line has me reaching for a bucket. Secondly, I knew that?

show: Awwww, see the pretty making out!

me: Very nice. Why was amy flocking back to dave when she knows that what she wants is Sheldon? She....knows she doesn't actually have to date a dude immediately after breaking up with someone, right? She knows she can take time to herself?

show: You're right!

me: I am? What did she learn?

show: Amy makes Sheldon a better man!

me: I mean- I would hope he makes her a better woman too, otherwise what is in it for her?

show: Look! Coitus!

me: ....is that your answer? That's why amy left? It can't be! She came back with no conditions!

show: Look at the pretty coitus!

me: Very nice. No really, very nice. But I mean- look, amy is frequently still patient but exasperated with him. What changed? What did she learn that prompted her to return, if you are going to the same well of eye-rolling with her so often? Why not some other sort of story? Ot doesn't only have to be with Sheldon. Why aren't you letting her display some growth and learning too?

show (through meemaw): How do we know you won't leave again, amy?

me: Er-bluntly put, but reasonably fair point. Yes, Amy. What have you learned and what changed?

show: You don't know what amy puts up with!

me: Yes I do! A lot! A whole freaking lot! Way more than she should! But what-

show: She's Sheldon's best shot!

me: She is his ONLY shot. He doesn't want anyone else. Again, we knew this. What did Amy learn? What has changed? If she wanted back in unconditionally, why did you also have her randomly drift through dates with pasty weirdos (hat tip to borealis)?

show: Let's have raj ask her!

me: Raj? Okay, please have Amy tick him off as well?

show: No raj is a kind gentle romantic who deserves infinite understanding.

me: The hell? No he isn't. Get amy to tick him off!

show: (amy sets up dating service for raj)

me: Facepalm, but okay whatever. Hey, amy, what prompted all that listless rudderless drifting anyway? What have you learned from that time?

show: Sheldon's fine by the way!

me: That isn't what I was asking.

show: Sheldon thinks all this was necessary for him!

me: Ew. But what about amy?

show: Sheldon doesn't blame amy and you shouldn't either!

me: I DON'T blame amy. I just want to understand -

show: Sheldon is better than ever!

me: Never mind.

LOL...Perfect!  I think I need to read this everyday to keep my sanity.  The show creates momentum, hints at possibilities, but then when viewers get caught up in it, thinking there is progress, the show is like,  "Oh you mean you actually wanted us to do something with that?"  Ok look, quickie reconciliations, quickie wedding, quickie coitus, growth for popular characters, but same old, same old, if not regression for disposable characters.  No hard feelings though right?

BTW...I don't think I have laughed so hard since Thanksgiving Decoupling, so many thanks.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Touche

[jlove]

13 hours ago, Lionne said:

Personally, I think that the tone of Amy and Meemaw's confrontation is set by Meemaw. If Amy was a more socially adept, cool-headed person with less emotional attachment to the issue, she might have been able to deflect Meemaw more calmly, but to be honest I think it still would have required an almost superhuman, emotionally sophisticated person to be able to manage the entire situation with pure grace under that kind of fire.

The moment Sheldon's back is turned, Meemaw turns on Amy and goes right for the jugular - I'm here to size you up in person because you hurt him and I don't think you're good enough for him. Amy's blindsided, the attack is up in her grill, and the stakes - Sheldon - are the highest they can possibly be. Meemaw is the one who has the problem and she's the one who sets the tone of the entire confrontation, and I think Amy is so shocked, angry, hurt, and defensive that she responds in kind to what she gets. Maybe it's not the best or smartest reaction, but it's certainly a very human and understandable one.

I'm not even sure how she could be more humble or defer to Meemaw here, because she can't risk giving an inch of ground in an argument that she's not good enough for Sheldon. She loves him and you'd expect her to be willing to fight for him, no matter who it's against.

Meemaw and Amy both love Sheldon, and so their emotional stakes are at their highest which drive their rationality and self-control down to it's lowest. Meemaw at least had time to THINK about how she would approach Amy, and she still pulls this attack on her. Amy is put into a totally reactionary position. Maybe she takes the bait and plays into Meemaw's hands by giving Meemaw the fight she wants, but I have a really hard time holding that against Amy considering the situation and the stakes at hand.

 

 

Yes, this.  And to Amy's credit, she does try. When Meemaw initially says she's there to size her up, and that Mary might be ok with her but she's not sure, Amy says that she's sure Meemaw will like her once she gets to know her.  She didn't jump into angry defensive mode right away...that took more prodding.

Edited January 26, 2016 by jlove

[MAH_B]

4 hours ago, wowbagger said:

as to the plea to give that poor dead horse a break: I do sympathise, I do, but unfortunately the show has a role to play in this. It has chosen to bring up the breakup and how it affected Sheldon in two episodes now, and to do so in a way that sound, to me, profoundly unsatisfying. And yes, to play into the 'blame' arena.

for the record: I do not think that Amy should apologise, per se, for the breakup. Why should she? She wasn't happy in her relationship and she walked. Yes, Sheldon's feelings were hurt, but that doesn't mean that Amy should endure an unsatisfying relationship.

but it does feel, to me, that every time that the show seems to be getting close to some sense of Amy's REASONS for the break, and importantly what changed in the intervening six months for her to come to the conclusion that a pleasant afternoon with Sheldon was sufficient for her to want to try again-every time we are getting close to fleshing out some of that conjectured offscreen development- the show pulls out the 'blame' card. So it sometimes feels like:

me: So, amy, welcome back. What did you learn when going walkabout?

show: Amy is the fabric softener to Sheldon's heart!

me: Firstly, that line has me reaching for a bucket. Secondly, I knew that?

show: Awwww, see the pretty making out!

me: Very nice. Why was amy flocking back to dave when she knows that what she wants is Sheldon? She....knows she doesn't actually have to date a dude immediately after breaking up with someone, right? She knows she can take time to herself?

show: You're right!

me: I am? What did she learn?

show: Amy makes Sheldon a better man!

me: I mean- I would hope he makes her a better woman too, otherwise what is in it for her?

show: Look! Coitus!

me: ....is that your answer? That's why amy left? It can't be! She came back with no conditions!

show: Look at the pretty coitus!

me: Very nice. No really, very nice. But I mean- look, amy is frequently still patient but exasperated with him. What changed? What did she learn that prompted her to return, if you are going to the same well of eye-rolling with her so often? Why not some other sort of story? Ot doesn't only have to be with Sheldon. Why aren't you letting her display some growth and learning too?

show (through meemaw): How do we know you won't leave again, amy?

me: Er-bluntly put, but reasonably fair point. Yes, Amy. What have you learned and what changed?

show: You don't know what amy puts up with!

me: Yes I do! A lot! A whole freaking lot! Way more than she should! But what-

show: She's Sheldon's best shot!

me: She is his ONLY shot. He doesn't want anyone else. Again, we knew this. What did Amy learn? What has changed? If she wanted back in unconditionally, why did you also have her randomly drift through dates with pasty weirdos (hat tip to borealis)?

show: Let's have raj ask her!

me: Raj? Okay, please have Amy tick him off as well?

show: No raj is a kind gentle romantic who deserves infinite understanding.

me: The hell? No he isn't. Get amy to tick him off!

show: (amy sets up dating service for raj)

me: Facepalm, but okay whatever. Hey, amy, what prompted all that listless rudderless drifting anyway? What have you learned from that time?

show: Sheldon's fine by the way!

me: That isn't what I was asking.

show: Sheldon thinks all this was necessary for him!

me: Ew. But what about amy?

show: Sheldon doesn't blame amy and you shouldn't either!

me: I DON'T blame amy. I just want to understand -

show: Sheldon is better than ever!

me: Never mind.

I agree with some of this, but not all. But mostly, I'm quoting because it's hysterical and made me lol for real! I love the way you word things and your perspective (though sometimes different from my own), wowbagger.

[2L344]

4 hours ago, wowbagger said:

as to the plea to give that poor dead horse a break: I do sympathise, I do, but unfortunately the show has a role to play in this. It has chosen to bring up the breakup and how it affected Sheldon in two episodes now, and to do so in a way that sound, to me, profoundly unsatisfying. And yes, to play into the 'blame' arena.

for the record: I do not think that Amy should apologise, per se, for the breakup. Why should she? She wasn't happy in her relationship and she walked. Yes, Sheldon's feelings were hurt, but that doesn't mean that Amy should endure an unsatisfying relationship.

but it does feel, to me, that every time that the show seems to be getting close to some sense of Amy's REASONS for the break, and importantly what changed in the intervening six months for her to come to the conclusion that a pleasant afternoon with Sheldon was sufficient for her to want to try again-every time we are getting close to fleshing out some of that conjectured offscreen development- the show pulls out the 'blame' card. So it sometimes feels like:

me: So, amy, welcome back. What did you learn when going walkabout?

show: Amy is the fabric softener to Sheldon's heart!

me: Firstly, that line has me reaching for a bucket. Secondly, I knew that?

show: Awwww, see the pretty making out!

me: Very nice. Why was amy flocking back to dave when she knows that what she wants is Sheldon? She....knows she doesn't actually have to date a dude immediately after breaking up with someone, right? She knows she can take time to herself?

show: You're right!

me: I am? What did she learn?

show: Amy makes Sheldon a better man!

me: I mean- I would hope he makes her a better woman too, otherwise what is in it for her?

show: Look! Coitus!

me: ....is that your answer? That's why amy left? It can't be! She came back with no conditions!

show: Look at the pretty coitus!

me: Very nice. No really, very nice. But I mean- look, amy is frequently still patient but exasperated with him. What changed? What did she learn that prompted her to return, if you are going to the same well of eye-rolling with her so often? Why not some other sort of story? Ot doesn't only have to be with Sheldon. Why aren't you letting her display some growth and learning too?

show (through meemaw): How do we know you won't leave again, amy?

me: Er-bluntly put, but reasonably fair point. Yes, Amy. What have you learned and what changed?

show: You don't know what amy puts up with!

me: Yes I do! A lot! A whole freaking lot! Way more than she should! But what-

show: She's Sheldon's best shot!

me: She is his ONLY shot. He doesn't want anyone else. Again, we knew this. What did Amy learn? What has changed? If she wanted back in unconditionally, why did you also have her randomly drift through dates with pasty weirdos (hat tip to borealis)?

show: Let's have raj ask her!

me: Raj? Okay, please have Amy tick him off as well?

show: No raj is a kind gentle romantic who deserves infinite understanding.

me: The hell? No he isn't. Get amy to tick him off!

show: (amy sets up dating service for raj)

me: Facepalm, but okay whatever. Hey, amy, what prompted all that listless rudderless drifting anyway? What have you learned from that time?

show: Sheldon's fine by the way!

me: That isn't what I was asking.

show: Sheldon thinks all this was necessary for him!

me: Ew. But what about amy?

show: Sheldon doesn't blame amy and you shouldn't either!

me: I DON'T blame amy. I just want to understand -

show: Sheldon is better than ever!

me: Never mind.

BRiLLIANT!

[S.L Farrell]

8 hours ago, Lionne said:

A new TR will only help if it doesn't have anything to do with Amy and Sheldon's break up. Both the V-Day episode and the Meemaw episode put the break up front and center, which is why we're arguing about it all over again. Damn you, show, but why do we have to carry on about this fucking break up when you sweep so much else under the rug?

I used to have someone like Sheldon in my life, and this is partly why I get my back up against this "respect your elders" business, because it was one of my grandmothers. Her own friends called her "a neanderthal." She's actually manic depressive, or whatever you call that these days, but back from the time when the only treatment for that was alcohol, so she's a bipolar alcoholic, and you can't even imagine how lovely that is to deal with for more than 5 seconds.

And it is difficult, because after years of begging and pleading with her to be treated better, and dealing with all the insults and such, I had to cut off my relationship with her. However, there were plenty of people who felt you have to "respect your elders" and "but she's your grandmother" and I've literally had people grab me by my elbow and drag her to her on her request because they simply feel I HAVE to love her and I HAVE to get along with her and I HAVE to sit there and take insults from her simply because of the matter of blood and age, and let me tell you: that's bullshit. I don't care who is older or how people are blood related, no one has to take abuse from anyone. And this includes the fact that Amy doesn't have to answer to Meemaw or take one ounce of her abuse. I love the fact that Meemaw dishes out her "maybe I don't like you" and Amy dishes that medicine right back at her, with "maybe I don't like you!"

Amy isn't obligated to bow to anyone who is treating her like dirt. Amy has been through enough of that sort of bullying, sheltering and abuse in her life already, and she doesn't need to take another ounce of it from anyone, not even Meemaw. Not because she broke up with Sheldon. I'm sorry, Amy has the right to break up with Sheldon, it's NOT something she should or has to apologize for. Of course breaking up with Sheldon hurts him, and she knew that, but between staying with him or her self-respect, she had to chose her self-respect and he's the one who put her into that position. She might regret hurting him, but still feel she did what she had to do, especially at the time, and it's just not something to apologize for.

Totally agree with this whole post.!!!...IMO I think that if Amy had caved and became more meek and tried to smooth things over with Meemaw rather than defend herself....Meemaw would have never backed down in the end and given her blessing even with Sheldon defending Amy..... cause lets face it, you need to be a very strong person with a lot of patience to be able to be in a relationship with Sheldon and still retain who you are and still be able to see and appreciate and love, who he is under all the difficulties his personality throws at people......being a doormat is not healthy for either of them.  Sheldon is and always will be a challenge, and I think that Amy is totally up to it!!

In regards to the bolded part.....I would like to add that I think (my opinion only of course) that not only did Amy choose self respect, she was also choosing to step away from someone who (even if unknowingly) hurt her on a regular basis....Amy's character has always been fairly stoic (except when really happy), and I don't believe for one second that she wasn't also hurting in that break up....in fact they made it clear a couple times exactly how much her heart was breaking....she doesn't need to be in tears constantly, or even talking about it constantly for it to be true (and yes it is frustrating to the viewer who just wants to see some obvious signs).....I know plenty of people who feel deeply and who go through very painful times looking like nothing is touching them, but it is there underneath the camo; and no one who deals with pain should have to justify it with tears and big huge displays.....Amy in fact in past episodes will often leave, and segregate herself rather than put her hurt on display....lol......the exact opposite of Sheldon in this regard.

Anyway in the end I am sure that Amy and Meemaw will love each other, but they will never back down from each other when it comes to someone they both love very much, and that is the way it should be.

 

Edited January 26, 2016 by S.L Farrell

[MAH_B]

12 minutes ago, jlove said:

Yes, this.  And to Amy's credit, she does try. When Meemaw initially says she's there to size her up, and that Mary might be ok with her but she's not sure, Amy says that she's sure Meemaw will like her once she gets to know her.  She didn't jump into angry defensive mode right away...that took more prodding.

I agree with this. And in defense of Amy, and her renewed (although much gentler, IMO) eye-rolling in the Skype calls, part of the reason for the breakup was, from my perspective, Amy bottling up resentment for the way Sheldon treated her and brushed her off, due to fear of him fleeing. Though I know some read it as "exasperated Amy" being back in business now that the post-Earworm/post-coital glow is gone, I actually see the Skype calls as demonstrated improvements in their communication and, as such, as PROOF that she did learn something from the breakup. She learned to communicate her feelings more directly and stopped being afraid of Sheldon running scared. She's confident of her love for him, his love for her, and the strength of their relationship.

- she told him she missed him and wished he was there (and glory hallelujah, the "miss you" sentiment was returned!) 

- she thanked him for his "romantic" gesture of naming the asteroid after her and wore a giddy facial expression to match

- they spoke of their potential future children (pre-breakup, she got criticized for mentioning Martian children)

- she didn't like how he treated her or his friends when he was sick and told him directly that she expected better behavior. No games. No manipulation. No bobble-head bribes or enabling. I see this as growth and proof that she's determined to communicate better and treat him like a grown up. And yes, as proof that she loves him enough to be honest with him

- she admitted she lied about staying in Detroit longer than necessary (I understand why people are mad she didn't demonstrate her own empathy, but still, she told him outright what she did and, perhaps most importantly, why)

I get that much of the above also sets up proof of Sheldon's growth, but honestly, I think it's really important that Amy is not going to be a doormat anymore and bottle up her desires/fears/feelings so much, as she has done consistently since he tried to break up with her over a table back in S7. I like to see a bit of her confidence back, especially when it comes to her relationship with Sheldon.

We can debate blame until the sun sets (and I agree that both are to blame), but I absolutely see proof that both have grown. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Radar]

9 minutes ago, S.L Farrell said:

Totally agree with this whole post.!!!...IMO I think that if Amy had caved and became more meek and tried to smooth things over with Meemaw rather than defend herself....Meemaw would have never backed down in the end and given her blessing even with Sheldon defending Amy..... cause lets face it, you need to be a very strong person with a lot of patience to be able to be in a relationship with Sheldon and still retain who you are and still be able to see and appreciate who he is under all the difficulties his personality throws at people......being a doormat is not healthy for either of them.  Sheldon is and always will be a challenge, and I think that Amy is totally up to it!!

Agree! And I'm really curious about how Meemaw's statement as to 'do we have your blessing' comes across. According to the TR her 'I guess so' was unenthusiastic. I wondered if that was because she was actually intrigued, that she couldn't believe that this woman had such an influence on Sheldon, that she actually helped him grow up. So saying 'I guess so' and thinking 'wow, is this really happening??'.

Well, the Amy-fan is speaking. Probably wishful thinking. 

[jenafan]

@Lionne:   I think out of all the pro-Amy posts, yours have had the biggest affect on really helping me to understand Amy's position better, and I agree she had every reason to need the break up, etc.    However, I disagree with the notion that she should not offer some sort of apology to Sheldon.   An apology or expression of empathy is not necessarily an admission of wrong-doing, nor is it an indication that the other person is right.     It would be a statement to indicate Amy values her relationship and Sheldon's feelings more than her pride, and it makes a big difference in the length of time it takes to heal over a setback.

Sheldon was extremely heartbroken by the way the break up was handled, and I think she should acknowledge that even though she initiated it, she understands and that it wasn't a bowl of cherries for her either.   

Seeing Sheldon take all the blame and accepting his growth in the breakup is all well and good, but it just seems to me that by making it all about himself,  Sheldon is avoiding any and all information pertaining to the pain Amy caused him and is in denial that he feels insecure.    She told him she needed time to think and re-evaluate their situation, not that she was looking for something else.  Sheldon can't continue to blame himself and ignore the fact that Amy's dating behavior during the break up affected him profoundly.    I'm sure interrupting a date with the same man he caught her kissing is scarred in his eidetic memory.   I wonder if he wonders if she is still a flight risk because it has been etched into his brain that he has been the bad boyfriend, and if he doesn't fit her bill now, she will just find someone else.

In addition, by Amy continuing to put 100% blame on Sheldon, or so it seems, she is failing to accept any responsibility for her part in discontinuing communication with Sheldon on the matter, which caused his frustration to get out of hand.    She needs to stop playing the 100% victim and realize that Sheldon was also a victim.

Avoiding accountability and responsibility is a recipe for destruction in a relationship.    Sheldon has accepted his part by acknowledging and showing her how important she is to him.   Amy needs to accept hers, and the reason why her intentions about remaining in the relationship are questionable.   She may have been in her right to do what she did, but by taking Sheldon back at status quo, the consequences are that she is going to be scrutinized by those who don't understand the reasoning behind her decision until she makes the matter known.

Edited January 26, 2016 by jenafan

[Radar]

Well, if Amy decides to apologize to him (still think it already happened offscreen after Earworm), maybe Sheldon will insist on an 'Amy Farrah Fowler apologized to me'-T-Shirt. 

[Stephen Hawking]

21 hours ago, Maddie said:

Can anyone else remember seeing them in the coffee shop and wondering what kind of journey these two would be on?

When I saw that scene, I just knew those two would be awesome together.

Yes, they've had their ups and down, and yes, their relationship is crazy, weird and nerdy, but it just works, and it's very sweet, and very romantic.

20 hours ago, Einstein Von Brainstorm said:

Just FYI - It wasn't the font size it was the actual font!

Actually, I thought it was their user interface, which they changed from a "star based" rating system, to a "thumbs up" rating system.  

20 hours ago, camelliayao said:

It's just I want Meemaw to like Amy, not for her to be yet another obstacle in the Shamy relationship.

Maybe Meemaw will respect Amy, for standing up for herself?

[Stephen Hawking]

16 hours ago, Lionne said:

because the question dropped on the table by all of my family members was: why is anyone even friends with that guy?

I think Leonard explained it best, to Professor Proton:-

Leonard: You know what, Sheldon is the smartest person I have ever met. And he’s a little broken and he needs me. I guess I need him, too.

16 hours ago, Lionne said:

How does he even manage to have a girlfriend??

Maybe because, Amy's a little broken too, and they kinda heal each other.

[Stephen Hawking]

13 hours ago, jlove said:

"I should've taken my breasts out when I had the chance..."

I agree 100% Amy.  

[AnnJ]

1 hour ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Maybe because, Amy's a little broken too, and they kinda heal each other.

Yes!  Absolutely love this. It is so true.  I heard a priest once say the point of marriage was friction. We need to find someone to rub our hard edges off, to soften us. In essence what he was saying is everyone is a little broken and a couple's purpose is to heal and improve eachother.

Edited January 26, 2016 by AnnJ

[kelliluvtbbt]

On 1/25/2016 at 3:57 PM, shamour said:

Great minds think alike;-) I also wrote something concerning this topic, perhaps you like it, too:-)

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11271511/1/The-Letter

And kelli also wrote something with a letter if I remember correectly, she did a couple of stories after 8x24...

https://www.fanfiction.net/u/5651719/kelli-k

thanks for mentioning me           

[Einstein Von Brainstorm]

7 hours ago, camelliayao said:

LMAO. Exactly how I feel. And to be honest I don't think they'll ever talk about Amy's feelings  because that's not their intention in the first place. 

Also I hate that the show uses Sheldon's "cool your jets" to somehow tell us audience to cool our jets. I mean??? We never said we want engagement right away. All we need is some old school Shamy and Shamy swaying in the background. It's the the writers who can't let go of all the dramas and bring up the old topic two episodes in a row.

I remember there's an interview where CL emphasizes that Sheldon is a scientist and science is his priority. Great, then let him do science stuff. Please. I haven't seen him at work for a very long time. 

9x12 The Sales Call Sublimation - one episode ago he was at work finding an asteroid with Raj 

?! 

[camelliayao]

26 minutes ago, Einstein Von Brainstorm said:

9x12 The Sales Call Sublimation - one episode ago he was at work finding an asteroid with Raj 

?! 

That wasn't his work, was it? And the finding asteroid part was over pretty quickly in that episode. That storyline was mainly about to name the asteroid Amy, which, although I like it, was still about relationship.

I was talking about more like the helium episode, or The Troll Manifestation.

[Einstein Von Brainstorm]

3 hours ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Actually, I thought it was their user interface, which they changed from a "star based" rating system, to a "thumbs up" rating system.  

That was Youtube dude!  

[Jedichic98]

I don't know if this has been said yet, but I found it very interesting that the tables seem to have turned from 7.15 to 9.15, from Amy getting frustrated at her plans being interrupted to Sheldon now getting annoyed at getting FWF interrupted. From what we've read so far (and I know its just the taping report and that could play differently on screen) Amy didn't appear annoyed at her valentine's day night being spent giving advice to her friend. (And this is Amy, we're talking about! The girl who "deserves romance") Sure she rolled her eyes when sheldon said he had nothing else planned but from one TR it was included with a sideways smirk/smile, so she didn't seem that bothered. Rather than have the episode result in a fight, it ended with them clinking cups in celebration, (which sounds adorable!) Sheldon displayed understanding of the benefits of the break up (which I agree with even if others do not) and Amy seemed understanding that in that moment helping Raj was more important than solely focussing on having a night with her BF. I've been a observer here for a while and I can understand where some of the concerns are coming from, but for me personally, the TR displayed maturity for both of them. I'm happy with the way things are going! 

[Lionne]

11 hours ago, jenafan said:

@Lionne:   I think out of all the pro-Amy posts, yours have had the biggest affect on really helping me to understand Amy's position better, and I agree she had every reason to need the break up, etc.    However, I disagree with the notion that she should not offer some sort of apology to Sheldon.   An apology or expression of empathy is not necessarily an admission of wrong-doing, nor is it an indication that the other person is right.     It would be a statement to indicate Amy values her relationship and Sheldon's feelings more than her pride, and it makes a big difference in the length of time it takes to heal over a setback.

Sheldon was extremely heartbroken by the way the break up was handled, and I think she should acknowledge that even though she initiated it, she understands and that it wasn't a bowl of cherries for her either.   

Seeing Sheldon take all the blame and accepting his growth in the breakup is all well and good, but it just seems to me that by making it all about himself,  Sheldon is avoiding any and all information pertaining to the pain Amy caused him and is in denial that he feels insecure.    She told him she needed time to think and re-evaluate their situation, not that she was looking for something else.  Sheldon can't continue to blame himself and ignore the fact that Amy's dating behavior during the break up affected him profoundly.    I'm sure interrupting a date with the same man he caught her kissing is scarred in his eidetic memory.   I wonder if he wonders if she is still a flight risk because it has been etched into his brain that he has been the bad boyfriend, and if he doesn't fit her bill now, she will just find someone else.

In addition, by Amy continuing to put 100% blame on Sheldon, or so it seems, she is failing to accept any responsibility for her part in discontinuing communication with Sheldon on the matter, which caused his frustration to get out of hand.    She needs to stop playing the 100% victim and realize that Sheldon was also a victim.

Avoiding accountability and responsibility is a recipe for destruction in a relationship.    Sheldon has accepted his part by acknowledging and showing her how important she is to him.   Amy needs to accept hers, and the reason why her intentions about remaining in the relationship are questionable.   She may have been in her right to do what she did, but by taking Sheldon back at status quo, the consequences are that she is going to be scrutinized by those who don't understand the reasoning behind her decision until she makes the matter known.

Thanks for being open-minded, Jena.

At this point, after all of this discussion, I wish I knew how to set up a poll. The question would be:

Should Amy apologize to Sheldon. Options:

1) Yes, Amy should apologize for the break up,

2) No, Amy should not apologize for the break up, she should only apologize or express regret for hurting him, and acknowledge that he suffered during their time apart,

3) No, Amy was within her rights to break up with him. She doesn't owe him an apology,

or

4) Not just no, but HELL NO, Sheldon could be an insulting ass and Amy should have conked him over the head with an iron skillet on her way out the door! Suffer, Sheldon, suffferrrrRRRrrrrRrrrRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!

And 5) DOES NOT COMPUTE. NO CUCUMBER. TECHNIQUILLY ILLOGICAL, KIRK.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd really be interested in the results of such a survey.

As for me, a few things:

As I have stated, I hate splitting hairs, or maybe I mean that I love splitting hairs but I am sorry to put others through the morass of splitting them with me, because I know it's confusing. So, sorry if I am about to split a lot of hairs here, and hope that my PoV is at least understood, even if you disagree with it.

2L344 made the comment that regret/apology/accountability are all the same to him and he means about the same thing with any of those words, and perhaps it's the English major in me, but I can't get on board with that sort of casual disregard to words and their nuances. All 3 of those words mean something very, very different to me, and if you said that, "I'd like to see Amy show some regret or remorse for hurting Sheldon so badly," I could give that a "like," and get on board. If you said, "I'd like to see Amy apologize for breaking up with Sheldon and take accountability for her actions," then I'm definitely not going to agree and I'm ready to roll up my sleeves and jump into a debate, because while those sentiments might seem all within the same shades of grey, they are *very* different shades of grey to me.

Sheldon and Amy are involved in a romantic relationship, and one that will require empathy, gentleness, and fine tuning. I don't think that Amy should apologize for breaking up with Sheldon. She had the right to do so, and I think he drove her to do it. But I do think that, particularly for the sake of the relationship, in which these two are not in competition with each other but seeking to operate as a unit, and pride must be, to a certain degree, put aside sometimes to validate and work hard to empathize with the other, I would be on board with Amy admitting that she was sorry for hurting Sheldon's feelings. I think she has come close to this in some ways; when she asked for the break she made it clear that she still loved him very, very much. When they were driving to the aquarium, Amy told him that she still wanted him to be happy; his happiness (and perhaps hoping that she had not single-handedly destroyed that happiness) was still important to her. I felt that was walking a very thin line - I want you to be happy, even if I am not the person making you happy, in fact I have probably done something which has made you unhappy, and worse, and it's hard to go against my desire to see you happy and have to be the one who hurts you but the other option was my continued pain and...wow, what a sticky wicket this is, I'm a neurobiologist not a hippie, eat your Cheerios because I'm not sure I have the emotional strength to navigate this complicated mess.

And it is a complicated emotional place, yes?

But here's why I think that I get my dander up, and I think others get their dander up, and if I am reading the Meemaw taping report right, where Amy gets her dander up too: apologizing to Sheldon for hurting him during the breakup requires Amy to expend a lot of empathy on Sheldon, and empathy is not Sheldon's strong suit so it's not something she gets in return. In fact, his lack of ability to empathize with or relate to others is one of his defining characteristics. I think that when Amy protests, and doesn't want to apologize for the break up, or gets her back pushed up against the wall by Meemaw and asks "why aren't you on my side" or "I'm his best shot," is because it's really tough to always be the one responsible for being understanding, empathetic, and patient in a relationship when that same consideration is not being extended to you because those qualities are not necessarily virtues in your partners wheelhouse. I think it's human nature to want things to be fair, and for someone to turn to Amy and tell her that she needs to extend a lot of empathy and understanding - even moreso than she's already giving on a regular basis - towards a person who is inherently selfish and doesn't pay her the same consideration of putting her feelings first, makes her justifiably defensive and angry. 

It makes her fans, and even casual observers, a bit angry too. I think that the writers understand that's part of the dichotomy of the relationship and that there's this very odd position placed on Amy where you have to balance her being adoring and empathetic and care-taking of Sheldon in order to make the relationship work with the problem of making her seem, at times, like a doormat or mother-figure. Which is why having Amy being empathetic and caring enough to apologize for hurting him, but not going so far as to apologize for a breakup that Sheldon pretty much caused by pushing her too far and disrespecting her boundaries, is a position that I would find fair, but is a very delicate path to walk.

See, I don't think that Amy considers herself 100% in the right over the breakup, but I think that she might consider herself slightly a martyr in the relationship sometimes and I also think that she feels two things: 1) give Sheldon an inch of an apology and he can take a mile, and make you pay for it, so giving him an apology can be dangerous, and 2) she's always had to demand an apology from him, and it's been very hard to get one even when she really deserves it, so why should she give away apologies to him for free unless she really genuinely feels sorry? But I think that Sheldon has gotten better at apologizing, being more empathetic, and putting her first, so maybe her side of personal growth might be getting over her martyr complex, yes, and learning to apologize to him honestly and really mean it....not be getting kinky spankings, Catholic school girl outfits, or using sarcasm he takes as sincere to get away with not really meaning it, yes?

Lastly, @April and @wowbagger - I actually stayed completely out of this entire breakup discussion the first time around. At the time, I was far more sympathetic towards April's view that I was puzzled why Amy's position in the break up, and her perspective on it, was so hard to understand. In fact, I believe that was the only thing I popped up to say during the entire period, and as wow and others know, I was arguing with my own minions fellow head cheerleaders mellowed ringleaders, er, friends about behind the scenes at the time. I agree that the tensions between Amy and Sheldon were greater in the second half of season 6, all through season 7, and sort of died down in season 8 only to reemerge again, seemingly at random, for the season 8 finale, but I always thought that the cumulative psychological effect of going at Sheldon's pace rather than her own, and some of the times that Sheldon took her for granted, brushed her off, failed to make her a priority and etc was going to eventually take a toll. I had also stated, since way back towards the end of season 5, that the race between Amy's patience and Sheldon's pace was always going to end up in a race of which got there first, and it was actually quite poetic to me that Amy finally snapped just when Sheldon had the ring and was ready to go all in. Classic issue of timing with their issues.

So, originally, April, I was with you with, "Why the frack is it so hard to see Amy's side in this even if we're not getting a lot of detail about her storyline with actual scenes?" Up through coitus, and so the first half of the season, I took that position and stay with it for that part of the story.

However, these last two episodes that are highlighting the break up again swing me a little closer, though not entirely there, to wow's side. And of course, I always appreciate her wit and humor even if I don't entirely agree with her. But I feel that in these past two episodes we have built it up so that Sheldon's feelings about, justification and insights into the breakup are put entirely front and center even if the original questions are asked to Amy directly that it really does flop maddeningly into centering all things around Sheldon when there was an opportunity - that a lot of fans were holding their breath waiting for - for Amy to get a turn to speak and show more of her side of it. The set up really put Amy in the spotlight to defend or explain herself, but Sheldon was the one with the answers who settled the issue. For those fans - and there are a lot of them - who would like a little more insight, information, or expression of Amy's PoV, getting two more episodes on this break up that end up with Sheldon speaking his PoV to settle the matter while Amy either dithers uncomfortably with phone buttons or fends off MeegorMawgon tantalizes but then frustrates. You have an opportunity to let Amy speak or show us some insights into her, as she's got the side of the story we know less about, and instead we get Sheldon summing up the PoV that we already KNOW, for goodness sake.

So, actually, these last two episodes make me a little more sympathetic to the side which isn't as sure as I, or April and some others, might be about Amy's PoV in the break up because the opportunity to give them the information or apology they want gets set up on a silver platter to happen, but only gets polished off by Sheldon, the side we're already clued in on.

That's a bit irksome.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Lionne

[Tensor]

8 minutes ago, Lionne said:

Thanks for being open-minded, Jena.

At this point, after all of this discussion, I wish I knew how to set up a poll. The question would be:

Should Amy apologize to Sheldon. Options:

1) Yes, Amy should apologize for the break up,

2) No, Amy should not apologize for the break up, she should only apologize or express regret for hurting him, and acknowledge that he suffered during their time apart,

3) No, Amy was within her rights to break up with him. She doesn't owe him an apology,

or

4) Not just no, but HELL NO, Sheldon could be an insulting ass and Amy should have conked him over the head with an iron skillet on her way out the door! Suffer, Sheldon, suffferrrrRRRrrrrRrrrRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!

And 5) DOES NOT COMPUTE. NO CUCUMBER. TECHNIQUILLY ILLOGICAL, KIRK.

 

Where do you want it Lio?  And I'm a bit confused about 3,4 and 5

[Lionne]

Anywhere you want, Tensor! Thank you! And just 1- 5 are the options to vote for?

[Tensor]

 

8 minutes ago, Lionne said:

Anywhere you want, Tensor! Thank you! And just 1- 5 are the options to vote for?

OK, give me a couple of minutes and I now understand what you meant with the or and and.  I thought you wanted either 3 or 4.  Got it now.  I'll put the poll in Season 9 (it has to be a new thread), then link to it from here in the Shamy thread.  You may want to quote the post when another page is added, so it stays on the current page.

[Lionne]

That is so kind of you, Tensor, thank you.

[Tensor]

OK New Poll on whether Amy Should Apologize to Sheldon.