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[Spoilers]Shipping Lanes: Season 9


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Is it just me, or does anyone else think that Penny going to Sheldon, behind Leonard's back, to discuss what she should do with her future (acting), while she is engaged to him, is a form of cheating too.  Especially since the outcome could really impact both their lives.  I would have serious trust issues if a girl did that to me and I would seriously question if she was committed to marriage.

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Your quality may not be my quality.  

The Sheldon show is a reference to how much time is spent on screen.  I happen to think screen time is relevant.   I wonder if you would change your mind if in season 9, the situations were reversed as far as screen time? Although I don't think that will happen.  

I don't think I would change my mind. I still enjoy early seasons despite being no Amy or Shamy in them after all. I could handle less screen time as long as they are still a part of the show and in a good place.

Edited by Mislav
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All of these are good points. 

Ok, so while they were both seeing other people at various points in Seasons 1-3, there was a very distinct Lenny undertone that kinda hinted at them having feelings for each other/eventually getting together. I think it's fair to say that while Shamy was in fact non-existent, Lenny was still the main pairing on the show during these early seasons (whether or not they were actually together). I still think Season 3 is a great example...yes, three of the last four episodes weren't great for Lenny but look at just about every other episode in the season! 

The fact is that there is now a second main pairing on the show, that being Shamy, which also demands attention from the writers. I think Season 8 treated Lenny abysmally, and their amount of screen time was completely disproportionate to Shamy. I think Season 8 was definitely Shamy-dominated, and from Comic Con it seems that Season 9 may be headed that way too. But at the end of the day, none of us here are writers on the show, so we just have to take what they do and make the best of it. If somebody doesn't like that, then nobody is stopping them from ditching the show...

Regarding your example of Season 6...while Shamy had nearly the same amount of episodes as Lenny, the nature of the Lenny scenes in the overall development of the relationship were leaps and bounds ahead of Shamy's. I know quite a lot of Shamy shippers (not sure about here but definitely on Tumblr) actually hate the way Shamy was written in Season 6. Aside from maybe one or two instances, IMO the quality of their relationship in Season 6 actually decreased a fair bit and became quite manipulative (on both sides) whereas Lenny's only seemed to get stronger.

But most importantly, and this is a general point that I only just realised a few minutes ago...you also forget the generally glacial pace of the Shamy relationship as opposed to that of Lenny's. I don't have a problem if the writers decide to put the brakes on Lenny for a bit while they speed up Shamy. 

But you know what, let's look on the bright side. Maybe the writers are treating Lenny so poorly because they have something truly brilliant planned in the future. Fingers crossed :)

You do realize that during season 3 that there were six episodes ( that's one quarter of the episodes)while they were together, that didn't really contain Leonard and Penny.  Hardly just about every other episode.  You probably don't realize that there were more than twice as many Sheldon-Penny scenes in season 2 as there were Leonard and Penny scenes.  That's hardly showing Lenny as the main couple.

Yes, there is another main pairing.   All I was doing was comparing the screen time for the two couples.  Various posters told Lenny's that it was OK because, to use a very similar quote you used,  "I don't have a problem if the writers decide to put the brakes on Lenny for a bit while they speed up Shamy"  (*however, see below).  Season six is a prime example of them being able to handle a more balanced approach.  While you many not have like a lot of season 6, they didn't put the brakes on Shamy, like they did in season 8 with Lenny.

As for ditching the show, there are quite a few Lenny's who, while they are still watching, have lost their passion, their excitement for the show.  Where once they were right there waiting for each episode, some still watch hoping for a recovery (and they were gifted with that wonderful scene on the way to Vegas), some are indifferent.  Basically, the thing that excited them, how much they cared about the characters, isn't there like it was.   They complain about what they feel they lost.  Not all of them, and certainly not the general viewing audience, but it is there.   

I wonder why you think season 6 was so terrible?  I understand the Date Night Variable.  But, The Holographic Excitation was cute, and I'm not sure what was wrong with The Extract Obliteration.  Parking Spot was good for them,  Cooper/Kripke was a mixed bag, as was Spoiler Alert (which wasn't all that great for Lenny), Tangible Affection and Tenure Turbulence was pretty good for them.  The Closure Alternative was Amy trying to help Sheldon and of course Love Spell.  Those are the major plots for them, and while there are a couple of stinkers, it seems to me that the majority are at worst neutral.  And even during the this period, there was an undertone that hinted that they were staying together.

*As for the glacial pace.  It took two years and 40 episodes (which would have been 45 if not for the writers strike) for Lenny to become boyfriend/girlfriend.  It was a year and a half, and 34 episodes for Shamy to become boyfriend/girlfriend.  It was seven years before Lenny got engaged.  Do you really expect Shamy to take another two years, knowing Sheldon has the ring?   And don't forget, Penny was the hesitant one to get engaged, which is why it took seven years.   Sheldon is the hesitant one, and he's got a ring at five years  So, unless you're talking about physical intimacy, Shamy has actually moved faster than Lenny.  

As for having something brilliant planned.  When there were Lennys complaining about how poorly they were treated in the first half of the season, Lennys were told, don't worry, it will get better in the second half of the season, didn't happen.  Which leads to the pessimism you see in quite a few Lennys now.  

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Is it just me, or does anyone else think that Penny going to Sheldon, behind Leonard's back, to discuss what she should do with her future (acting), while she is engaged to him, is a form of cheating too.  Especially since the outcome could really impact both their lives.  I would have serious trust issues if a girl did that to me and I would seriously question if she was committed to marriage.

I don't see it as a form of cheating, but I do think it was strange to have Penny discuss it with Sheldon instead of her fiance. I get they are friends, but Leonard is the one spending the rest of his life with her and her decision affects him too.

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I don't see it as a form of cheating, but I do think it was strange to have Penny discuss it with Sheldon instead of her fiance. I get they are friends, but Leonard is the one spending the rest of his life with her and her decision affects him too.

I agree with you. If you think that way, Sheldon also cheated on Amy when he called Leonard instead of her after his train break. They are very simillar and very different at the same time, almost like brothers from another mother, so that's why they trust each other to tell things they wouldn't tell to their girlfriend/boyfriend, caring for don't hurt them.

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Why on earth will it be unearned? 

They have come a long way in 5 years and if the writers decide they will marry them, then that is what will happen

Because if you've watched the show the rate of progress of Shamy is not so fast. Usually past performance is the best indicator of future performance meaning that Sheldon is reluctant to change, and takes his sweet time to do so. In order for Shamy to get married before Lenny would require the rate of change in Sheldon to accelerate exponentially, and would defy the internal logic of the Sheldon character. You are correct, they have come a long way. Obviously if the writers decide to marry them that's what will happen., but why even bring it up? That means absolutely nothing , since they can, of course do whatever they want. In my estimation Leonard and Penny are further along in their route to marriage than Sheldon and Amy. While we are on the subject of unearned, for me, at least, the ring was unearned as well, because Sheldon's manifestations, including but not limited to not thinking only about Amy while he was making out with her doesn't seem like someone who is so invested in the other person that he would buy an engagement ring. IMO the only reason that scene didn't totally suck, was how masterfully acted it was (by Jim). Btw , I'm answering your post without having red the rest of the posts, so I don't know if I'm repeating anything that's been already said. I will proceed to read the rest of the posts right now.

 

I think that it would be pretty earned, especially for Lenny shippers, keeping in mind their attitude towards Shamy shippers this season. 

Will we end up having Lenny HQ? LOL.

When you have nothing else to say attack me for being a Lenny. it's pathetic. And no, nobody's putting you down for being a Shamy shipper. Quit it with the inferiority complex. For your information I like Shamy too, not in the same way you do.

un earned?

You think marriage is something earned?

No DJ, Obviously not. The moment in the fictional sitcom TBBT is unearned IMO, based of everything that transpired up to and leading to that point, OK?

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I think every couple is different, and reaches milestones at their own pace. We don't know which couple will get married first because none of us are writers of the show, so I think we have to be prepared to deal with whatever the writers decide to throw at us.

I think the Lenny shippers need to take a step back and realise that Lenny have actually dominated Seasons 1-3. Everyone complaining that Season 8 had too much Shamy or that it was the "Sheldon Show", needs to remember that you guys literally had three whole seasons (and bits of other seasons) where your ship was the dominant couple of the show. Shamy was non-existent during these earlier seasons (1-3, minus 'Lunar Excitation') and so naturally, things tended to revolve around Lenny. 

The Mushroom Log: I respond to you with utmost respect because you put forth your opinions with eloquence and perspective, something that (IMO) other posters lack. It is very true that all couples are different and they reach their milestones at their own pace. Based on what we have seen so far (Seasons 1-8) Shamy's pace is slower than Lenny's. Since as of right now they are , for lack of a better expression, not as "near" to marriage as Lenny are supposed to be, it seems to me that they have to go farther to marry than Lenny have. Of course it is subjective, and that is what would feel natural and reasonable to me based on everybody's personality in the show.

I've never complained that there was too little Lenny in Season 8, just that the Lenny moments were not as special as they once were. I really don't think you can't take into consideration Season 1-3 because as you said Amy didn't even "exist". I don't think it is a competition, and I will never understand why a lot of Shamy shippers get defensive when their ship is criticized.

As far as "the Sheldon show goes" that's being going on since S2, so... And yes, to my taste S8 was crap, but not exclusively due to the fate of each ship, but because I found it less funny in general. I remember a lot of laugh out loud moments from Season 1 through S6, and very few cringe inducing moments. From S7 onwards I've found that ratio has shifted considerably in the wrong direction. The memorable moments have been few and far between.

My beef overall is why can't both (all ships) be written well and consistently?

I am still stuck on Leonard confessing to kissing another woman-intended or not intended remains unclear?  Penny's look on her face really hit in the gut for her and sorry since I see the show through the lens of my experiences...no matter the circumstances...this would be hard one to explain away.  The only one that would be ok with me is she kissed me and I pushed her away and then threw up.  The writers have tended toward drama in Lenny overall so I have little faith at this point that this is the scenario that will be revealed...if it's revealed at all.

I will give Shamy that Amy finally had it about intimacy with Sheldon.  But if the ring engagement, promise or otherwise, causes her to gush and just decide a break is not needed then this too proves pointless.  As far as commitment, they have their RA which she agreed to even if it favored Sheldon.  The intimacy part of their relationship is the part that needs to be dealt with and resolved in order for me to think this story made sense.  And I am not in a rush to see coitus.  What I'd like is to see a more balanced Shamy.  One where Amy gets the Sheldon thinking about her while kissing or at least talking about why he might be thinking about Flash during this time?  Two where Sheldon realizes that he is in committed relationship and when planning any major part of his life (i.e.: a trip to Mars) that -Gee, maybe he should talk this over with Amy?  However unlikely the possibility is of going to Mars?

I am trying to go into S9 with an open mind on it all but I still feel like the S8 finale came out of nowhere!  Amy has a little bit of room in that there is frustration with regards to intimacy because she talks about it and Sheldon picks on her about trying to get in his pants.  However, as a Shamy, I still see couple who is awkward in make outs probably due to their lack of experience.  I was always on the "Amy would freak if they really take the coitus step" bandwagon because until that kiss on the couch in S8...the 2 on screen kisses before that she was stiff as a board. The writers clearly didn't got that route. 

Then you have Lenny...where Leonard who proclaims in S1 that their babies will be smart and beautiful...FINALLY is with the love of his life and in one drunken moment on boat in the North Sea there was a kiss with another woman.  This is the same Leonard, who was showing vids on the boat of his hot beautiful Penny.  It rings false to me. 

I think this post is the best post I've read in this thread and I agree with it 100%. I wish I could have thought of it word for word since it is, IMO. PERFECT.

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My beef overall is why can't both (all ships) be written well and consistently?

sorry since I see the show through the lens of my experiences...no matter the circumstances...

This is the same Leonard, who was showing vids on the boat of his hot beautiful Penny.  It rings false to me. 

-Since when is "written well and consistantly" a universal consensus with fans of this show?  Or any show for that matter?

-What about seeing it through the lenses of the characters themselves, and taking into account EVERYTHING you know about said characters when it comes to whether a specific action feels right for that character?  Just because our experiences dictate what we might do DOES NOT mean that is what every person is going to do.

-And how do you know the kiss didn't come before the phone call/showing the vids, as an attempt by Leonard to show everyone that he is taken?

Edited by meka3000

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My beef overall is why can't both (all ships) be written well and consistently?

 Penny's look on her face really hit in the gut for her and sorry since I see the show through the lens of my experiences...no matter the circumstances...this would be hard one to explain away. 

This is the same Leonard, who was showing vids on the boat of his hot beautiful Penny.  It rings false to me. 

I wonder that also Denise.  Most of the time, the writers do a great job of writing the characters and referencing previous comments.  But then they come up with with something off the wall taking Leonard, what I consider, out of character, cheating on the woman he's had feelings for, at the point he cheated, for over six years.

I have to agree with you about seeing it through the lens of our experiences.  I care about Leonard and Penny because I see them through my experiences, which is why I like them, and not the other couples.  Let me say I don't dislike the other couples, I just don't like them as much as Lenny.   I understand the writers can chose to do something different with them, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

As it does for me Denise.  I noticed you didn't say whether or not the kiss was before the phone call.  If you wish to see it as coming after, that's fine, if you wish to see it as coming before, you can still view it as it ringing false.  Others can see it any other way they want to, just as you can see it as you want. 

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I now come to this website for the conversations because those are more fun than the show. I watched s8.24 twice and it just about killed any inclination to care any more. The Roommate Transmogrification was good because the crisis was created by circumstances and generally there was no blame to be assigned. It was about the star-crossed lovers who couldn't catch a break, but there was still hope. This tawdry excuse of a cliffhanger reeks of disappointment and booze. What's to hope for in s9? That Penny forgive Leonard? That Leonard grovels for that forgiveness? Stupid, stupid, stupid. Where is the joy in that? And I'm thinking Sheldon pulled that ring out of his arse. No one saw that coming, and why would they. There was no reason for that to happen then. It is a sitcom. The situations are supposed to be comedic. All that the last episode delivered was misery. They have a big hole to dig themselves out of, I believe.

Edited by Nogravitasatall
because the new forum doesn't like w8.1
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Ya, well I'm inclined to think it going to be easier to enjoy season 9 if you are coming for the celebration of the new star wars movie, references to the flyby of Pluto, perhaps a reference to the new 5 quark particle announced by CERN...

...if you are looking for a great romantic comedy perhaps Nerdvana is the wrong place to look. Can't have anything too normal happen here.

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Because if you've watched the show the rate of progress of Shamy is not so fast. Usually past performance is the best indicator of future performance meaning that Sheldon is reluctant to change, and takes his sweet time to do so. In order for Shamy to get married before Lenny would require the rate of change in Sheldon to accelerate exponentially, and would defy the internal logic of the Sheldon character. You are correct, they have come a long way. Obviously if the writers decide to marry them that's what will happen., but why even bring it up? That means absolutely nothing , since they can, of course do whatever they want. In my estimation Leonard and Penny are further along in their route to marriage than Sheldon and Amy. While we are on the subject of unearned, for me, at least, the ring was unearned as well, because Sheldon's manifestations, including but not limited to not thinking only about Amy while he was making out with her doesn't seem like someone who is so invested in the other person that he would buy an engagement ring. IMO the only reason that scene didn't totally suck, was how masterfully acted it was (by Jim). Btw , I'm answering your post without having red the rest of the posts, so I don't know if I'm repeating anything that's been already said. I will proceed to read the rest of the posts right now.

 

When you have nothing else to say attack me for being a Lenny. it's pathetic. And no, nobody's putting you down for being a Shamy shipper. Quit it with the inferiority complex. For your information I like Shamy too, not in the same way you do.

No DJ, Obviously not. The moment in the fictional sitcom TBBT is unearned IMO, based of everything that transpired up to and leading to that point, OK?

No, I wasn't saying that I was being put down as a Shamy shipper... I was saying that many Lenny shippers are trying to diminish Shamy as a ship, whch itself is a bad attitude towards Shamy shippers. Speak about an inferiority complex.

And no, I wasn't "attacking" you. I have no problems with you shipping Lenny, but with your posts and hypocrisy. For somebody who likes Shamy, you certainly had no problems with other posters calling their relationship toxic or abusive. Calling Sheldon an asshole. Or getting all riled up when somebody opens a longer discussion about Shamy... similar to the way Shenny shippers started behaving pass season three or so, with Shamy becoming a part of the show. Most of Lenny shippers seem to be heading down that road now. 

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Sorry, but this whole debate of if Shamy wedding is "earned" seems rather silly to me. When writers actually get couple engaged when it was "earned"? Howard and Bernadette got engaged after like year and a half and we saw very little of their progress. Penny and Leonard refused to get married just few episodes back before engagement, had still some problems and people weren't acting like they were expecting it either. Seems like writers much more than doing this plot  as some sort of "happy ending" are doing it as mood strikes them. And there's nothing bad with that. It's like in life, just the fact you're engaged doesn't mean everything is pink and perfect and there's nothing to work on. Shamy could just as easily get married for some reason few seasons back and continue their progress as they are. Writers didn't gave them any boundaries in terms of following some conventional scheme so, as long as it's written well, and it's properly explained in motivation of characters, whatever that is, there is I believe always possible way to do almost anything with them. 

I also don't understand what this all fuss is about Sheldon thinking about something else while kissing Amy. Like our minds never slipped elsewhere during kissing. What a crime. Even Amy got really angry only after he called it "big commitment issue" while after five years she seemed to think he should be wrestling with very different commitment issue. 

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You do realize that during season 3 that there were six episodes ( that's one quarter of the episodes)while they were together, that didn't really contain Leonard and Penny.  Hardly just about every other episode.  You probably don't realize that there were more than twice as many Sheldon-Penny scenes in season 2 as there were Leonard and Penny scenes.  That's hardly showing Lenny as the main couple.

Yes, there is another main pairing.   All I was doing was comparing the screen time for the two couples.  Various posters told Lenny's that it was OK because, to use a very similar quote you used,  "I don't have a problem if the writers decide to put the brakes on Lenny for a bit while they speed up Shamy"  (*however, see below).  Season six is a prime example of them being able to handle a more balanced approach.  While you many not have like a lot of season 6, they didn't put the brakes on Shamy, like they did in season 8 with Lenny.

As for ditching the show, there are quite a few Lenny's who, while they are still watching, have lost their passion, their excitement for the show.  Where once they were right there waiting for each episode, some still watch hoping for a recovery (and they were gifted with that wonderful scene on the way to Vegas), some are indifferent.  Basically, the thing that excited them, how much they cared about the characters, isn't there like it was.   They complain about what they feel they lost.  Not all of them, and certainly not the general viewing audience, but it is there.   

I wonder why you think season 6 was so terrible?  I understand the Date Night Variable.  But, The Holographic Excitation was cute, and I'm not sure what was wrong with The Extract Obliteration.  Parking Spot was good for them,  Cooper/Kripke was a mixed bag, as was Spoiler Alert (which wasn't all that great for Lenny), Tangible Affection and Tenure Turbulence was pretty good for them.  The Closure Alternative was Amy trying to help Sheldon and of course Love Spell.  Those are the major plots for them, and while there are a couple of stinkers, it seems to me that the majority are at worst neutral.  And even during the this period, there was an undertone that hinted that they were staying together.

*As for the glacial pace.  It took two years and 40 episodes (which would have been 45 if not for the writers strike) for Lenny to become boyfriend/girlfriend.  It was a year and a half, and 34 episodes for Shamy to become boyfriend/girlfriend.  It was seven years before Lenny got engaged.  Do you really expect Shamy to take another two years, knowing Sheldon has the ring?   And don't forget, Penny was the hesitant one to get engaged, which is why it took seven years.   Sheldon is the hesitant one, and he's got a ring at five years  So, unless you're talking about physical intimacy, Shamy has actually moved faster than Lenny.  

As for having something brilliant planned.  When there were Lennys complaining about how poorly they were treated in the first half of the season, Lennys were told, don't worry, it will get better in the second half of the season, didn't happen.  Which leads to the pessimism you see in quite a few Lennys now.  

I completely respect your opinions and although they seem to differ from mine in literally every sense, I'll consider them anyway. But, after reading this essay of a post, I do still have a few points to raise:

1. I think we seem to have differing ideas of what constitutes good writing/development for a particular pairing. I would equate it to quality over quantity, but you've made the excellent observation that one person's definition of quality might be different from somebody else's. I absolutely agree. However, my issue is that you seem to think that a couple is only written well in the show if they have lots of screen time. The more screen time, the better the writing, you could say. I do not agree with this at all. While you mentioned there being six episodes in season 3 where, despite being together, Lenny barely had any screen time, I don't think you're acknowledging other episodes where they did get a lot of screen time. Their relationship progressed further in the space of a few episodes than Shamy's did over a few years (minus the ring). A pairing can be written well without having a lot of screen time...and without necessarily even being together in the show. I noted in my previous post that the Lenny pairing was insinuated at numerous points during Seasons 1 and 2, despite the two characters not actually being together. To that end, I don't think it's really necessary to compare screen time in order to compare pairings (which is also slightly unnecessary because they're both great).

2. I think they did actually put the brakes on Shamy during Season 6, but more so on the emotional side of things. I don't know if you watched the same season 6 I did, but Shamy's relationship became quite unhealthy. Both Amy and Sheldon manipulated each other at numerous points. I can point these out for you if you want?

3. Regarding their being something brilliant for Lenny - Oh, come on! I was trying to lighten things up and think positively about Lenny! But of course you had to go and shoot that down as well...

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Ya, well I'm inclined to think it going to be easier to enjoy season 9 if you are coming for the celebration of the new star wars movie, references to the flyby of Pluto, perhaps a reference to the new 5 quark particle announced by CERN...

...if you are looking for a great romantic comedy perhaps Nerdvana is the wrong place to look. Can't have anything too normal happen here.

yeah, but sadly I bought what they started selling in s1.1. And they own the thing, so they should fix it. I hope they lift their game back to where it was. I'm not sure they can.

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My biggest issue with season six was that the writers started concentrating on Amy's desire for physical intimacy too much without making Sheldon progress much. That was kinda resolved in The Love Spell Potential but the rest of the season was just awkward. It is one of my favorite seasons but only because of The Love Spell Potential and good work with combining serious topics with humor, and because Kate Micucci was there and season finale ended on a relatively positive note. Not to mention that they had finally resolved Raj's mutism problem and Leonard's career got to move forward with that boat trip. 

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My biggest issue with season six was that the writers started concentrating on Amy's desire for physical intimacy too much without making Sheldon progress much. That was kinda resolved in The Love Spell Potential but the rest of the season was just awkward. It is one of my favorite seasons but only because of The Love Spell Potential and good work with combining serious topics with humor, and because Kate Micucci was there and season finale ended on a relatively positive note. Not to mention that they had finally resolved Raj's mutism problem and Leonard's career got to move forward with that boat trip. 

Agreed. Aside from 'Love Spell', Shamy's relationship was particularly awkward during Season 6. Once the writers developed a clear interest in attempting to characterise Amy as desperate and horny, the way the relationship played out on screen became a little uncomfortable to watch at times. Neither Sheldon nor Amy comes out of that season looking good.

I love the other aspects of Season 6, but not Shamy. IMO Season 6 was the worst season for Shamy we have seen so far. Apart from the general Shamy awkwardness, there were so many amazing moments in Season 6 for the other characters. The end of Raj's mutism, Leonard's career moving forward, Penny finally saying "I love you", Howard in space...Season 6 is generally a solid season, with regards to everything BUT Shamy.

Edited by The Mushroom Log
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I now come to this website for the conversations because those are more fun than the show. I watched s8.24 twice and it just about killed any inclination to care any more. The Roommate Transmogrification was good because the crisis was created by circumstances and generally there was no blame to be assigned. It was about the star-crossed lovers who couldn't catch a break, but there was still hope. This tawdry excuse of a cliffhanger reeks of disappointment and booze. What's to hope for in s9? That Penny forgive Leonard? That Leonard grovels for that forgiveness? Stupid, stupid, stupid. Where is the joy in that? And I'm thinking Sheldon pulled that ring out of his arse. No one saw that coming, and why would they. There was no reason for that to happen then. It is a sitcom. The situations are supposed to be comedic. All that the last episode delivered was misery. They have

a a big hole to dig themselves out of, I believe.

I understand completely what you are saying, the magic seems to be gone.  It was the little things that killed that feeling for me, the uncharacteristic lack of kissing, especially at the prom, them not acting like an engaged couple, the increase closeness to Sheldon, when logic would have her moving away because she is engaged to Leonard, and then finally the finale.  Actually season 8 seems more like it is leading to a breakup than a wedding to me.

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I completely respect your opinions and although they seem to differ from mine in literally every sense, I'll consider them anyway. But, after reading this essay of a post, I do still have a few points to raise:

1. I think we seem to have differing ideas of what constitutes good writing/development for a particular pairing. I would equate it to quality over quantity, but you've made the excellent observation that one person's definition of quality might be different from somebody else's. I absolutely agree. However, my issue is that you seem to think that a couple is only written well in the show if they have lots of screen time. The more screen time, the better the writing, you could say. I do not agree with this at all. While you mentioned there being six episodes in season 3 where, despite being together, Lenny barely had any screen time, I don't think you're acknowledging other episodes where they did get a lot of screen time. Their relationship progressed further in the space of a few episodes than Shamy's did over a few years (minus the ring). A pairing can be written well without having a lot of screen time...and without necessarily even being together in the show. I noted in my previous post that the Lenny pairing was insinuated at numerous points during Seasons 1 and 2, despite the two characters not actually being together. To that end, I don't think it's really necessary to compare screen time in order to compare pairings (which is also slightly unnecessary because they're both great).

2. I think they did actually put the brakes on Shamy during Season 6, but more so on the emotional side of things. I don't know if you watched the same season 6 I did, but Shamy's relationship became quite unhealthy. Both Amy and Sheldon manipulated each other at numerous points. I can point these out for you if you want?

3. Regarding their being something brilliant for Lenny - Oh, come on! I was trying to lighten things up and think positively about Lenny! But of course you had to go and shoot that down as well...

 

Sorry for the essays, but you should know, long explanatory answers, along with being pedantic, can be trademarks of my posts.  It's one of the reasons I think I was voted most like Leonard, so, again, my apologies.  :icon_redface:

1.  Of course we have differing opinions on what constitutes good writing.  It's not that I think a couple is written well based on screen time, it's that, since we have differing qualitative opinions, what we have quantitatively is screen time.   I don't usually bring up screen time out of the blue, except as a counterpoint to someone saying there was more Lenny in the early seasons, so it's OK for there to be more Shamy now.  I'm just trying to show there wasn't all that much more Lenny earlier, as is generally assumed, especially when compared to the huge difference now, with more Shamy.    

I do acknowledge the episodes that featured them, however, the comment I was referencing was "Just about every other show in the season".  Fully one third (not one quarter, my bad), of the episodes where they were together did not include them, not "just about every other show".  And again, the only thing that progress for Lenny was physical intimacy, while other things progressed faster with Shamy.  

As for the insinuation of their pairing, would you say this could be something like my saying I thought season six was good for Shamy?  See, up until we found out that Penny called Leonard's name while kissing Stuart, I didn't get the feeling that they were a pairing.   Them dating other couples, with Penny spending more time with Sheldon is hardly conducive  to that insinuation.  Could it be something similar for season 2?  You see it one way, I see it another?  

2.  I did watch the same season 6 as you did.  However, just a week or so ago, when I pointed out that Shamy's relationship was unhealthy, I got jumped on for pointing that out.  I was told that their relationship was not manipulative, that Amy didn't appear desperate, the points I made were reaching.  All this from another Shamy.  So, which is it?  Is it unhealthy or were there no problems?  Just for the record, I agree with you on the problems with their relationship, but as so often happens with this show, there were various good points about their relationship in season six also, so you can look at it either way.  

3. While it may seem lighthearted to you (and I do understand what you were trying to do) if you've been told month after month that things are going to get better, and they don't,  to hear what basically is "it's going to get better", ring kind of hollow.  Lenny's were told all season it was going to get better, we kept hoping.  Then, one of the first statements out of the taping report was "Leonard Cheated".  So please pardon me if I'm a bit cynical about "it's going to get better'.  It may, but at this point I, along with a few others here, are going to have to see it, before we believe it.  

 

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As it does for me Denise.  I noticed you didn't say whether or not the kiss was before the phone call.  If you wish to see it as coming after, that's fine, if you wish to see it as coming before, you can still view it as it ringing false.  Others can see it any other way they want to, just as you can see it as you want. 

I didn't give much thought to was the kiss before or after.  Got to rambling without even considering the timeline in relation to the phone call.  Hmmm?  I will have to chew on that for a minute.  My initial reaction is if it was after...it makes it worse somehow.  But need to think on it. 

Tensor, I have to say though, I don't know/trust that TPTB will go into that much detail about it.  I would like them too but my faith is just not there.  My hope is at least getting a better understanding of the details of the kiss.   

 

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yeah, but sadly I bought what they started selling in s1.1. And they own the thing, so they should fix it. I hope they lift their game back to where it was. I'm not sure they can.

In 1.1 they sold Leonard and Sheldon. At that point Leonard simply had some faint hope of a relationship with the pretty new girl next door. Penny and Leonard really did not know for sure that feelings were reciprocated until 1.17 when Penny declared the cat was alive. Sill there was a lot of ambiguity in the relationship for a long time.

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3. While it may seem lighthearted to you (and I do understand what you were trying to do) if you've been told month after month that things are going to get better, and they don't,  to hear what basically is "it's going to get better", ring kind of hollow.  Lenny's were told all season it was going to get better, we kept hoping.

Who told you it was going to get better, and why did you take their words for it?

 

 

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In 1.1 they sold Leonard and Sheldon. At that point Leonard simply had some faint hope of a relationship with the pretty new girl next door. Penny and Leonard really did not know for sure that feelings were reciprocated until 1.17 when Penny declared the cat was alive. Sill there was a lot of ambiguity in the relationship for a long time.

I know you stated your opinion of espoide 1 my opinion is they told us where the story was headed at the end of the espoide when Leonard said smart and beautiful babies I'm sure he didn't mean Sheldon and himself Sent from my XT1056 using Tapatalk
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