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[Spoilers]Shipping Lanes: Season 9


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Agree with all your post, regarding the bolded part: Yes, it shocks me how little she needed... actually no, I'm not surprised, when I read complaints about her trying to "change him too much", I always knew that wasn't true, all she needed was a bit more of kindness and reassurance that she was really important for him (this part is still seriously lacking, that's why I can't really comprehend her intent of brushing off everything and get back to him like that, but I guess, as others had said, it was an impulssive reaction out of her love for him)

Because if we think about it, if he had given her a couple days as she asked, there wouldn't have been such big confrontation, if he hadn't approached her with insults, there wouldn't have been any break up, if he had tried to kindly talk with her again before going into full 'moving on' mode, they would have talked and she would have forgiven him sooner, if he hadn't told her about him asking other women out, she probably wouldn't have started dating and he would have spared himself 'the horror!' of seeing her kissing other guy.

But yeah, I know I'm forgetting that everything was actually her fault, because, for once, she refused to be all patience and clarifications with him, ignoring that her real role is not lover/girlfriend, it's mother/teacher/pursuer. Silly her!, how can she forget that she's not someone deserving to be pursued!

The first bolded, we have no idea of because they have been apart for months and he seemed to be rather kind to her in this taping.   But it's only been one day.   We don't know either way. 

And yes,  we all know that he screwed up and didn't back off those first few days.  And that is why the break turned into a break up.  But let's not act like Amy was really making herself available for him to talk to.   After the first 2 episodes, he wasn't mean or disrespectful to her in any way.  Remember,  all the crap Sheldon threw at her happened with in a matter of days.   They've been broken up for 6 months now.   Let's not act like he has been an ass all this time. 

And as far as the full on move on mode, why is it that Sheldon is solely at fault here?  Especially since we know that while Amy didn't know if she was ready at the moment,  she had already assumed she would move on.  Your statement goes both ways.   Why didn't Amy kindly talk to Sheldon before going into move on mode? Not to mention that Sheldon only considered moving on because people were telling him he should because Amy deserves to be happy,  as if that wasn't going to happen with him.   Then he got drunk and half-assed his way through asking someone out.  

The last bolded part is just silly.   So we can't point out things that Amy did wrong without being accused of thinking it was all her fault and Sheldon is innocent?  Just because Sheldon messed up big time doesn't mean that Amy has been perfect in her actions and we can't point that out.

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She isn't necessarily responsible for his pain,  but his pain is a consequence of her actions, no matter how justified her actions may have been.   And the same goes for the current situation.   Sheldon did the right thing here.   That doesn't make Amy's heartbreak any less.   That is the consequence for his actions.  These things don't happen in a bubble.   

And I'm sorry,  I just don't see Sheldon as winning anything here.   He lost big time.   He acted like an ass at the beginning the season and he lost her.   How did he win?   And how is this current situation an example of your supposed "Sheldon Wins Cycle" anyway?   There was no nastiness, petulance or any of that here.  I just don't see Sheldon being wrong here. 

I agree with your first paragraph in its entirety.  He shouldn't take her back.  None of the problems in the relationship have been fixed, and he is absolutely correct to assume that a reconciliation now on these terms would result in another, more traumatic split.  Bravo Sheldon, well done.  He probably could have done it without that little dig about being over her, but I'm going to write that up as Sheldon obliviousness.

 

And sure, he hasn't won yet, but since there is no chance they won't get back together, he is now ultimately going to win.  They simply don't have time, and they don't dwell in a genre,  where they can write the kind of mature love story that will have him realize his part in all this.  Amy understands her role.  She's worried about having hurt him.  She wants him to be happy.  Where's the corollary?

 

 Perhaps I'm underestimating the writers.  I hope so.  I don't like watching any shippers suffer. I don't want them to feel like I do, because I'm super bummed.   I'm glad the Shamy thread feels so optimistic.

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And sure, he hasn't won yet, but since there is no chance they won't get back together, he is now ultimately going to win.  They simply don't have time, and they don't dwell in a genre,  where they can write the kind of mature love story that will have him realize his part in all this.  Amy understands her role.  She's worried about having hurt him.  She wants him to be happy.  Where's the corollary?

How did this become a competition all of a sudden anyway??? They're trying to fix their relationship, in the end they both will win by getting their happy ever after with each other. It's not a power struggle - we're past that point, imho. Now is the time to find a way back to each other and sort this out.

From the taping report I get that the writers have already written Sheldon in a more mature manner. He's selflessly offering her his tickets and only accepts her counter proposal while trying to make sure the platonic date isn't awkward for her. For the first time in forever he's actually taking her feelings into account! It may not be much right now but it's a start.

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The first bolded, we have no idea of because they have been apart for months and he seemed to be rather kind to her in this taping.   But it's only been one day.   We don't know either way. 

And yes,  we all know that he screwed up and didn't back off those first few days.  And that is why the break turned into a break up.  But let's not act like Amy was really making herself available for him to talk to.   After the first 2 episodes, he wasn't mean or disrespectful to her in any way.  Remember,  all the crap Sheldon threw at her happened with in a matter of days.   They've been broken up for 6 months now.   Let's not act like he has been an ass all this time. 

And as far as the full on move on mode, why is it that Sheldon is solely at fault here?  Especially since we know that while Amy didn't know if she was ready at the moment,  she had already assumed she would move on.  Your statement goes both ways.   Why didn't Amy kindly talk to Sheldon before going into move on mode? Not to mention that Sheldon only considered moving on because people were telling him he should because Amy deserves to be happy,  as if that wasn't going to happen with him.   Then he got drunk and half-assed his way through asking someone out.  

The last bolded part is just silly.   So we can't point out things that Amy did wrong without being accused of thinking it was all her fault and Sheldon is innocent?  Just because Sheldon messed up big time doesn't mean that Amy has been perfect in her actions and we can't point that out.

Thing is, it's not about who is perfect and who isn't (none of the characters is), I'm perfectly aware that every statement about every fault commited before and during the break up can be said about one or the other, and that this separation is essentially based in conveniently placed misunderstandings and miscommunication.

What I've been passionately against to since the very beginning, is the lack of balance in the way the characters involved are treated, starting with the writers and finally by the fans. I think there should be an equilibrium, or at least that's why I feel it ideally should be for me in order to be able to properly ship a couple, and in this case I think everything is heavily skewed in favor of Sheldon.

Which leads me to, regarding the last statement you bolded, I'm not accusing anyone, I was merely pointing out that in the first episodes of 9 season, almost everything was about Sheldon's suffering, and his bleeding heart, and about baffling bad Amy who refused to talk/listen to him, if someone dared to say he may be just a tiny bit responsible because of his less than ideal and rude approach, he was immediately excused with the perpetual 'just Sheldon being Sheldon' thing. Now, when it's Amy's (unfair, IMHO) turn to suffer, all I'm reading about is: "Well, if you think about it, these are just the consecuences of her actions", "honestly, she brought all this up on herself", and whereas Amy's attitude was regarded as coldness and brattiness, Sheldon sudden giving up and posterior lack of spirit is regarded as admirable maturity (now that you mentioned it, Amy's passivity during those six months they had ben separated, can't be called a mature and respectful approach as well?, I mean, Sheldon said he was moving on after all, isn't also very thoughtful of her to not bother him?)

And to be completely honest, I'm tired and even offended by all this crap about her having to swallow her pride and pain and to sweat it hard in order to win him back while he just have to sit there, waiting to be wooed and assured that his precious feelings won't be hurt again, without never had fully acknowledged his own failures and mistakes that lead to the separation.

As I said before, at the end, fault is actually mine, for expecting something different, from the show and also from the fandom. I respect anyone's preferences and right to side with whatever character they want, and as Boonaroma said in her previous post, who am I to criticize the enjoyment of others just because I'm not having fun? at the end I suppose I sound unreasonable for calling out on the majority of the fans' reactions when I'm speaking against the most popular character of the series, and when the whole couple dynamic as depicted by the showrunners revolves around said character, and said character needs, I guess it's silly to expect otherwise.

Two of the saddest things this break up thing had brought to me is the realization that, until this point, I'm finding increasingly difficult to ship what I considered one of my biggest OTPs (if not the biggest one, given that I've hardly shipped any tv-couple before), and also that this fandom is one I feel I don't really belong anymore.

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Thing is, it's not about who is perfect and who isn't (none of the characters is), I'm perfectly aware that every statement about every fault commited before and during the break up can be said about one or the other, and that this separation is essentially based in conveniently placed misunderstandings and miscommunication.

What I've been passionately against to since the very beginning, is the lack of balance in the way the characters involved are treated, starting with the writers and finally by the fans. I think there should be an equilibrium, or at least that's why I feel it ideally should be for me in order to be able to properly ship a couple, and in this case I think everything is heavily skewed in favor of Sheldon.

Which leads me to, regarding the last statement you bolded, I'm not accusing anyone, I was merely pointing out that in the first episodes of 9 season, almost everything was about Sheldon's suffering, and his bleeding heart, and about baffling bad Amy who refused to talk/listen to him, if someone dared to say he may be just a tiny bit responsible because of his less than ideal and rude approach, he was immediately excused with the perpetual 'just Sheldon being Sheldon' thing. Now, when it's Amy's (unfair, IMHO) turn to suffer, all I'm reading about is: "Well, if you think about it, these are just the consecuences of her actions", "honestly, she brought all this up on herself", and whereas Amy's attitude was regarded as coldness and brattiness, Sheldon sudden giving up and posterior lack of spirit is regarded as admirable maturity (now that you mentioned it, Amy's passivity during those six months they had ben separated, can't be called a mature and respectful approach as well?, I mean, Sheldon said he was moving on after all, isn't also very thoughtful of her to not bother him?)

And to be completely honest, I'm tired and even offended by all this crap about her having to swallow her pride and pain and to sweat it hard in order to win him back while he just have to sit there, waiting to be wooed and assured that his precious feelings won't be hurt again, without never had fully acknowledged his own failures and mistakes that lead to the separation.

As I said before, at the end, fault is actually mine, for expecting something different, from the show and also from the fandom. I respect anyone's preferences and right to side with whatever character they want, and as Boonaroma said in her previous post, who am I to criticize the enjoyment of others just because I'm not having fun? at the end I suppose I sound unreasonable for calling out on the majority of the fans' reactions when I'm speaking against the most popular character of the series, and when the whole couple dynamic as depicted by the showrunners revolves around said character, and said character needs, I guess it's silly to expect otherwise.

Two of the saddest things this break up thing had brought to me is the realization that, until this point, I'm finding increasingly difficult to ship what I considered one of my biggest OTPs (if not the biggest one, given that I've hardly shipped any tv-couple before), and also that this fandom is one I feel I don't really belong anymore.

No matter what point you bring up about Sheldon's attitude that lead to the breakup some fans will never see it because they are blinded and will make excuses for him. If Sheldon was to commit premeditated murder on the show those same fans will defend him to the max and blame everyone else but Sheldon for his actions and why he shouldn't go to jail. I blame the writers they will never show Sheldon to be wrong thats why this breakup is so one sided pov towards Sheldon and we are not getting Amy's pov, if the writers put both POVs out there Sheldon will come out worst to the regular viewers and the writers cant have that for the special one. Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk
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I agree with both Sarah and Tonstar. Many Shamy shippers were concerned with Sheldon losing his character traits in this breakup, but it looks to me like it wrecked Amy's character. I'm going to wait to see how it plays out, but if it stays the way it is now Shamy is over for me. 

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How did this become a competition all of a sudden anyway??? They're trying to fix their relationship, in the end they both will win by getting their happy ever after with each other. It's not a power struggle - we're past that point, imho. Now is the time to find a way back to each other and sort this out.

From the taping report I get that the writers have already written Sheldon in a more mature manner. He's selflessly offering her his tickets and only accepts her counter proposal while trying to make sure the platonic date isn't awkward for her. For the first time in forever he's actually taking her feelings into account! It may not be much right now but it's a start.

Winning and losing and game metaphors are inelegant ways of discussing what I see as a fundamental unfairness in the relationship as presented.  Its obviously refreshing to see Sheldon showing any consideration for her feelings after six months of anger and  then apparent indifference.  But the examples you cited are pretty thin gruel.  Would it kill him to say he wants to see her happy too?  That he missed her too?  Anything?  

 

Also, Pretty much what Sarah said.

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No matter what point you bring up about Sheldon's attitude that lead to the breakup some fans will never see it because they are blinded and will make excuses for him. If Sheldon was to commit premeditated murder on the show those same fans will defend him to the max and blame everyone else but Sheldon for his actions and why he shouldn't go to jail. I blame the writers they will never show Sheldon to be wrong thats why this breakup is so one sided pov towards Sheldon and

we are not getting Amy's pov, if the writers put both POVs out there Sheldon will come out worst to the regular viewers

and the writers cant have that for the special one. Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

You know? I haven't thought it that way, and I think you can have a very good point here. I've read more than one episode review where the authors were actually happy that Amy was willing to go on dates again (when many Shamies were sure that Amy will be perceived as the villain for doing so), and that were dissappointed of Sheldon for asking out other women, also all of them were able to see how hurt Amy was at this revelation. I know, it's not like a couple reviews are the definitive proof of a general consensus, but for sure are at least a bit telling. Now, if Amy have had the opportunity to leash about everything she was unhappy for, what would the general audience reaction would be?

I mean, I'm not saying that he deserves the worst because he was such an horrible boyfriend all the time, but the attitude he was usually shown sporting was one that made the regular viewer feel that the relationship was one-sided and that he didn't really care about Amy, you really had to squint your eyes and overanalyze every little detail to be able to see the feelings we were supposed to know he had for her. I never liked this situation, contrary to what it could seem, I don't like to be against Sheldon, I would like to be able to support him as much as I support Amy, I really want to have enough basis to go and prove the nay-sayers that my ship is great and not one-sided at all, but the writers make it difficult, because they prefer to provide much more evidence of the contrary.

And actually, I also don't think Sheldon had to bend backwards in oder to change that appreciation, only a bit of kindness, thoughtfulness and a genuine act of selflessness would have been enough, IMO. (Edit: Oh, and I should add now: I bit more of passion towards her, please!, I mean, great of him for finally leaving her alone for a while as she asked, but I can't believe he simply gave up after a couple intents and was able to continue with his life as if nothing had happened and also behave as if he could easily replace her)

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You know? I haven't thought it that way, and I think you can have a very good point here. I've read more than one episode review where the authors were actually happy that Amy was willing to go on dates again (when many Shamies were sure that Amy will be perceived as the villain for doing so), and that were dissappointed of Sheldon for asking out other women, also all of them were able to see how hurt Amy was at this revelation. I know, it's not like a couple reviews are the definitive proof of a general consensus, but for sure are at least a bit telling. Now, if Amy have had the opportunity to leash about everything she was unhappy for, what would the general audience reaction would be?

I mean, I'm not saying that he deserves the worst because he was such an horrible boyfriend all the time, but the attitude he was usually shown sporting was one that made the regular viewer feel that the relationship was one-sided and that he didn't really care about Amy, you really had to squint your eyes and overanalyze every little detail to be able to see the feelings we were supposed to know he had for her. I never liked this situation, contrary to what it could seem, I don't like to be against Sheldon, I would like to be able to support him as much as I support Amy, I really want to have enough basis to go and prove the nay-sayers that my ship is great and not one-sided at all, but the writers make it difficult, because they prefer to provide much more evidence of the contrary.

And actually, I also don't think Sheldon had to bend backwards in oder to change that appreciation, only a bit of kindness, thoughtfulness and a genuine act of selflessness would have been enough, IMO.

100% agree on all you said. How can veiwers feel sorry for Amy if they don't get her pov all they can do is hate her for treating Sheldon badly by dumping him and not giving a reason. It so one sided and it not fair on the Amy's character to be hated because the writers refuse to give her pov but we see Sheldon suffering and gets the sympathy vote. Amy is hurting badly and she needs sympathy and love from the writers. Yes a little bit of selflessness would not go a mist. Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk
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Winning and losing and game metaphors are inelegant ways of discussing what I see as a fundamental unfairness in the relationship as presented.  Its obviously refreshing to see Sheldon showing any consideration for her feelings after six months of anger and  then apparent indifference.  But the examples you cited are pretty thin gruel.  Would it kill him to say he wants to see her happy too?  That he missed her too?  Anything? 

Totally this. I know we still have to wait to watch the episode to have a clearer idea of what really happens, but I would be less angry if he had at least said something like that to her, something that had justified even more her outburst at the end. After the latest TR I've read a lot of times that it's obvious that he is acknowledging his mistakes now (because with Sheldon it's always much easier to understand what is obvious... sorry! couldn't resist! :wink:), so, if that's true, and given they were having an honest talk in a long time, why couldn't him tell her that he was sorry for having wronged her?, or for his previous insults, even if he really doesn't understand what he did wrong, and even if he had managed to get over her, it would had been a very nice detail of him.

As you say, we, as Amy, have been trained to accept and treasure even his tiniest nicieties, but, I don't know, I'm convinced that she (and us) deserve more and better.

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Thing is, it's not about who is perfect and who isn't (none of the characters is), I'm perfectly aware that every statement about every fault commited before and during the break up can be said about one or the other, and that this separation is essentially based in conveniently placed misunderstandings and miscommunication.

What I've been passionately against to since the very beginning, is the lack of balance in the way the characters involved are treated, starting with the writers and finally by the fans. I think there should be an equilibrium, or at least that's why I feel it ideally should be for me in order to be able to properly ship a couple, and in this case I think everything is heavily skewed in favor of Sheldon.

Which leads me to, regarding the last statement you bolded, I'm not accusing anyone, I was merely pointing out that in the first episodes of 9 season, almost everything was about Sheldon's suffering, and his bleeding heart, and about baffling bad Amy who refused to talk/listen to him, if someone dared to say he may be just a tiny bit responsible because of his less than ideal and rude approach, he was immediately excused with the perpetual 'just Sheldon being Sheldon' thing. Now, when it's Amy's (unfair, IMHO) turn to suffer, all I'm reading about is: "Well, if you think about it, these are just the consecuences of her actions", "honestly, she brought all this up on herself", and whereas Amy's attitude was regarded as coldness and brattiness, Sheldon sudden giving up and posterior lack of spirit is regarded as admirable maturity (now that you mentioned it, Amy's passivity during those six months they had ben separated, can't be called a mature and respectful approach as well?, I mean, Sheldon said he was moving on after all, isn't also very thoughtful of her to not bother him?)

And to be completely honest, I'm tired and even offended by all this crap about her having to swallow her pride and pain and to sweat it hard in order to win him back while he just have to sit there, waiting to be wooed and assured that his precious feelings won't be hurt again, without never had fully acknowledged his own failures and mistakes that lead to the separation.

As I said before, at the end, fault is actually mine, for expecting something different, from the show and also from the fandom. I respect anyone's preferences and right to side with whatever character they want, and as Boonaroma said in her previous post, who am I to criticize the enjoyment of others just because I'm not having fun? at the end I suppose I sound unreasonable for calling out on the majority of the fans' reactions when I'm speaking against the most popular character of the series, and when the whole couple dynamic as depicted by the showrunners revolves around said character, and said character needs, I guess it's silly to expect otherwise.

Two of the saddest things this break up thing had brought to me is the realization that, until this point, I'm finding increasingly difficult to ship what I considered one of my biggest OTPs (if not the biggest one, given that I've hardly shipped any tv-couple before), and also that this fandom is one I feel I don't really belong anymore.

You are not only that has had issues with the way that the writers have treated these characters.  That was a lot of my issue with this storyline in the beginning.  That we were only getting Sheldon's side of things.  But at the same time, I believe that doesn't mean that Sheldon should be attacked for everything here.  That is a story telling issue and it doesn't lessen his pain and suffering.  My issue has been that all these things that you know think is unfair to Amy, you seem to be perfectly fine with Sheldon dealing with.  What is it really that you want him to do here?  He was being a jerk and bothering her, so he gets bashed for not leaving her alone.  He leaves her alone and now he's a jerk for not fighting for her and trying attempt to move on when she has made it clear to him that she doesn't want to deal with him.  Now, he's a jerk again because after 6 months Amy jumps the gun and asks him out again after spending one fun day together and he turns her down because he is understandably skiddish.  And he isn't bashed because him turning him down was wrong, but because it makes Amy look "bad" (which I disagree with).  He shows some hints maturity (which has been called for by everyone) and now it's another thing to be upset about.  Because again, is Sheldon is shown to look good at all, then that's a disservice to Amy, because she's supposed to be the one to "win" this one. To me it seems that unless Amy is in complete control, has the upper hand, has every aspect of this breakup and reconciliation go her way, that this unacceptable.  Restoring balance to the relationship is not and shouldn't attempt to be established by shifting all the power from one end to another.  The reconciliation needs to be as much of a win for Sheldon as it is for Amy.  They should be meeting in the middle.  The reconciliation should be a win for both of them.  Not Amy, not Sheldon.  Both.

 

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Winning and losing and game metaphors are inelegant ways of discussing what I see as a fundamental unfairness in the relationship as presented.  Its obviously refreshing to see Sheldon showing any consideration for her feelings after six months of anger and  then apparent indifference.  But the examples you cited are pretty thin gruel.  Would it kill him to say he wants to see her happy too?  That he missed her too?  Anything?  

 

Also, Pretty much what Sarah said.

I personally am not very comfortable with this winning/losing rhetoric precisely because it doesn't really leave much room for nuance. It implies that if the writers allow even the tiniest bit of flawed human reaction from Sheldon it's automatically a loss for Amy and I think that's nonsense. And you know very well I say that as someone who stood by your side defending Amy when people tried to complain about her for the exact same thing.

Ideally yes, I want Sheldon to step up and say all these nice things to her. She's probably the best thing that ever happened to him and he better let her know that sooner rather than later. But at the same time I can't help but being patient here. As flimsy as the examples from 9x09 may be they're still a step into the right direction. I don't know what the writers have planned for him but I sure hope they'll stay on that road and have him open up to her little by little until he's ready for some grand gesture or whatever.

 

I mean, I'm not saying that he deserves the worst because he was such an horrible boyfriend all the time, but the attitude he was usually shown sporting was one that made the regular viewer feel that the relationship was one-sided and that he didn't really care about Amy, you really had to squint your eyes and overanalyze every little detail to be able to see the feelings we were supposed to know he had for her. I never liked this situation, contrary to what it could seem, I don't like to be against Sheldon, I would like to be able to support him as much as I support Amy, I really want to have enough basis to go and prove the nay-sayers that my ship is great and not one-sided at all, but the writers make it difficult, because they prefer to provide much more evidence of the contrary.

And actually, I also don't think Sheldon had to bend backwards in oder to change that appreciation, only a bit of kindness, thoughtfulness and a genuine act of selflessness would have been enough, IMO.

Absolutely agree.

 

(Edit: Oh, and I should add now: I bit more of passion towards her, please!, I mean, great of him for finally leaving her alone for a while as she asked, but I can't believe he simply gave up after a couple intents and was able to continue with his life as if nothing had happened and also behave as if he could easily replace her)

With the adjusted time line in mind it makes quite a bit of sense to me. His breakdown is only two episodes ago - up until that point he seemed to have bottled it all up and pretend he's doing fine. Since then there's one last attempt to move on from Amy but that doesn't work. And now it's the first time they're interacting properly for like 6 months. So I'm okay for now if the writers want to start slow. But yes, by all means let him show some passion towards her, sooner rather than later!

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Restoring balance to the relationship is not and shouldn't attempt to be established by shifting all the power from one end to another.  The reconciliation needs to be as much of a win for Sheldon as it is for Amy.  They should be meeting in the middle.  The reconciliation should be a win for both of them.  Not Amy, not Sheldon.  Both.

 

Agree with this part, that's precisely the reason I don't like what they did at the end of latest episode, because it was merely a shifting of powers, to give Sheldon the upper hand again. Now, please tell me, in this situation, when all previous issues had been glossed over without being even addressed (because Amy herself was willing to pass them up when she offered him to get back together), now that Sheldon seems to be so content with himself having an strictly platonic relationship with Amy while she is heartbroken and confused after being rejected, tell me, do we have balance now?

I would completely agree that we had given a step in the right direction if they both were shown as having overcome their past differences and being happy with the platonic relationship (I mean, they did it with Sheldon, which I firmly believed would be the thoughest one to be convinced of that, why couldn't they do the same with Amy?, why do they had to hurt her once again?), in fact, I wouldn't be just happy, I would be jumping up and down in delight and joy, dreaming with a return to the basics, to that time when they really where shown enjoying each other's company and presence. But thing is, they aren't, and while I could optimistically consider this as an opportunity to further development and deepening of the character's psychology, I'm afraid all this only will turn into more beating and humilliation of an already beaten and humilliated character, a character I love just too much to merely be a passive spectator and not, at least, express my dissappointment for the way she is being treated.

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 My issue has been that all these things that you know think is unfair to Amy, you seem to be perfectly fine with Sheldon dealing with.  What is it really that you want him to do here?  He was being a jerk and bothering her, so he gets bashed for not leaving her alone.  He leaves her alone and now he's a jerk for not fighting for her and trying attempt to move on when she has made it clear to him that she doesn't want to deal with him.  Now, he's a jerk again because after 6 months Amy jumps the gun and asks him out again after spending one fun day together and he turns her down because he is understandably skiddish.  And he isn't bashed because him turning him down was wrong, but because it makes Amy look "bad" (which I disagree with).

Ive said it before and I'll say it again.  I actually don't mind Sheldon's behavior in this last TR.  I'm not wowed by any profound display of emotional maturity that some seem to see, but it's leaps and bounds past anything he displayed yet. My beef, my only beef with the current trajectory is that it does the same thing all the Sheldon fans are doing right now.

Sheldon's behavior in the first two episodes is not atypical, or incongruous.  He pulls this nonsense all the time, it was just particularly egregious and spread over two episodes.  And it's not okay.  It's a character flaw, and when applied to Amy it's abusive and a relationship deal breaker.  Where's the accounting for that?  Where's the assurance that she won't be treated like that again?  She is so hopelessly in love with him that she's willing to return with no expression any remorse, or even regret.  He still doesn't understand what he did wrong.  Remorse for his cruelty can't be a "show don't tell" moment.  I don't want some special pleading for him 'well he's Sheldon and he's a poet, really.  So he can't be expected to control his behavior when he's sad. Amy and the audience just need to understand that, shucks, he sure is sorry.  He just won't say it or change at all, because it's funny, isn't it, to watch a man be cruel to the woman who loves him. So let's pretend it never happened til next time.  Isn't Jim Parsons handsome?'

Edited by Boonaroma
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Agree with this part, that's precisely the reason I don't like what they did at the end of latest episode, because it was merely a shifting of powers, to give Sheldon the upper hand again. Now, please tell me, in this situation, when all previous issues had been glossed over without being even addressed (because Amy herself was willing to pass them up when she offered him to get back together), now that Sheldon seems to be so content with himself having an strictly platonic relationship with Amy while she is heartbroken and confused after being rejected, tell me, do we have balance now?

I would completely agree that we had given a step in the right direction if they both were shown as having overcome their past differences and being happy with the platonic relationship (I mean, they did it with Sheldon, which I firmly believed would be the thoughest one to be convinced of that, why couldn't they do the same with Amy?, why do they had to hurt her once again?), in fact, I wouldn't be just happy, I would be jumping up and down in delight and joy, dreaming with a return to the basics, to that time when they really where shown enjoying each other's company and presence. But thing is, they aren't, and while I could optimistically consider this as an opportunity to further development and deepening of the character's psychology, I'm afraid all this only will turn into more beating and humilliation of an already beaten and humilliated character, a character I love just too much to merely be a passive spectator and not, at least, express my dissappointment for the way she is being treated.

We will just agree to disagree here because I don't think a display of humanity and the fact that, she too, can make mistakes is humiliating.  And after reading the final scene with her I felt sad for her, but not pity.

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We will just agree to disagree here because I don't think a display of humanity and the fact that, she too, can make mistakes is humiliating.  And after reading the final scene with her I felt sad for her, but not pity.

Yes, her mistakes only make her human, I agree, but what mistake are we talking about? to ask him to get back together like that? Yes, a total mistake, I want to go an tell her: "Gurl, what the heck was you thinking?????", now, to break up with him? That was not a mistake, he was being unreasonable and rude for the ninentieth time with her, she was in all her right to say it was enough, however, the main problem is that I think now she is being "punished" precisely for that, because she let him go, and now she is shown as still blindly in love with him while he seems to be completely over her, how couldn't that be understood as a punishment for the mistake of breaking up with him in the first place?

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Ive said it before and I'll say it again.  I actually don't mind Sheldon's behavior in this last TR.  I'm not wowed by any profound display of emotional maturity that some seem to see, but it's leaps and bounds past anything he displayed yet. My beef, my only beef with the current trajectory is that it does the same thing all the Sheldon fans are doing right now.

Sheldon's behavior in the first two episodes is not atypical, or incongruous.  He pulls this nonsense all the time, it was just particularly egregious and spread over two episodes.  And it's not okay.  It's a character flaw, and when applied to Amy it's abusive and a relationship deal breaker.  Where's the accounting for that?  Where's the assurance that she won't be treated like that again?  She is so hopelessly in love with him that she's willing to return with no expression any remorse, or even regret.  He still doesn't understand what he did wrong.  Remorse for his cruelty can't be a "show don't tell" moment.  I don't want some special pleading for him 'well he's Sheldon and he's a poet, really.  So he can't be expected to control his behavior when he's sad. Amy and the audience just need to understand that, shucks, he sure is sorry.  He just won't say it or change at all, because it's funny, isn't it, to watch a man be cruel to the woman who loves him. So let's pretend it never happened til next time.  Isn't Jim Parsons handsome?'

He is being held accountable for this and was pretty much right away.  He's single instead of being engaged and planning a wedding.  What other punishment do you want him to be handed out?  How long should he be punished?  If they get back together, he has to have the opportunity to right his wrong and honestly, Amy gave him very little chance to do so, as was her right.  And so far there isn't any assurance that he really has matured, but Sheldon saved her from herself here, so again, why is he the bad guy, once again?  I don't think anyone excused Sheldon's behavior.  Understanding the character and understanding how he operates doesn't mean that he has been excused for his behavior.  I just don't see how Sheldon is ever going to be worthy of Amy for you and others while you call for his maturity and for him to grow up, yet start bashing him before we even get the chance to see if he has actually done so.

Yes, her mistakes only make her human, I agree, but what mistake are we talking about? to ask him to get back together like that? Yes, a total mistake, I want to go an tell her: "Gurl, what the heck was you thinking?????", now, to break up with him? That was not a mistake, he was being unreasonable and rude for the ninentieth time with her, she was in all her right to say it was enough, however, the main problem is that I think now she is being "punished" precisely for that, because she let him go, and now she is shown as still blindly in love with him while he seems to be completely over her, how couldn't that be understood as a punishment for the mistake of breaking up with him in the first place?

She wasn't mistaken in breaking up with him, but she broke up with him knowing she loved him.  If she held onto any hopes of righting the relationship and having a future with him, she took a risk breaking up with him.  Just because the risk she took, at this current moment, looks to have backfired on her, doesn't make taking the risk a mistake.  It also doesn't mean she is being punished.  Sometimes life just isn't as fair as we want it to be nor do things work the way or when we want them to.  

And I will just disagree with him being completely over her.  I don't believe he is over her at all.  I think the reasoning for wanting to remain friends speaks volumes, as do the questions he asked her.  

Edited by nickelette424
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He is being held accountable for this and was pretty much right away.  He's single instead of being engaged and planning a wedding.  What other punishment do you want him to be handed out?  How long should he be punished?  If they get back together, he has to have the opportunity to right his wrong and honestly, Amy gave him very little chance to do so, as was her right.  And so far there isn't any assurance that he really has matured, but Sheldon saved her from herself here, so again, why is he the bad guy, once again?  I don't think anyone excused Sheldon's behavior.  Understanding the character and understanding how he operates doesn't mean that he has been excused for his behavior.  I just don't see how Sheldon is ever going to be worthy of Amy for you and others while you call for his maturity and for him to grow up, yet start bashing him before we even get the chance to see if he has actually done so.

It's not about punishment.  He could lose her forever and never understand why, and never grow as a person, but at least she'd be clear of his toxicity.  But, wow, that would be sad for Sheldon.  He could have realized (aloud) that he was out of line two minutes after episode two, and if he showed a genuine effort to really change he would barely have lost her at all. 

 

There's no sentence he needs to serve.  He needs to stop being such a damn bully to Amy.  He needs to treat her better.  As a viewer, I don't trust the writers to make this change explicit.  He'll take her back over sexual tension, or he'll take her back for some other reason, and they will never mention the first two episodes again.  

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He is being held accountable for this and was pretty much right away.  He's single instead of being engaged and planning a wedding.  What other punishment do you want him to be handed out?  How long should he be punished? (1) If they get back together, he has to have the opportunity to right his wrong and honestly, Amy gave him very little chance to do so, as was her right.  And so far there isn't any assurance that he really has matured, but Sheldon saved her from herself here, so again, why is he the bad guy, once again?  I don't think anyone excused Sheldon's behavior.  Understanding the character and understanding how he operates doesn't mean that he has been excused for his behavior.  I just don't see how Sheldon is ever going to be worthy of Amy for you and others while you call for his maturity and for him to grow up, yet start bashing him before we even get the chance to see if he has actually done so. (2)

1) As Boonaroma said before, he may be single now, but there's not the tiniest chance he won't get the girl at the end, do any of us really think Amy will marry another guy? of course not! now the question is how he will make his way to the altar, by getting away with everything, no matter what (as pretty much has been until now) or having a really balanced relationship with the woman he loves.

2) In my case it's not that difficult: Sheldon will be worthy of Amy again the day he clearly shows remorse for not having had enough respect for her and compromises to respect her from that moment on. That will be the moment (if ever happens) he will redeem himself to my eyes. I know future ups and downs in the relationship will be unavoidable, for the sake of drama, comedy and storytelling, but they will be worth it.

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It's not about punishment.  He could lose her forever and never understand why, and never grow as a person, but at least she'd be clear of his toxicity.  But, wow, that would be sad for Sheldon.  He could have realized (aloud) that he was out of line two minutes after episode two, and if he showed a genuine effort to really change he would barely have lost her at all. 

 

There's no sentence he needs to serve.  He needs to stop being such a damn bully to Amy.  He needs to treat her better.  As a viewer, I don't trust the writers to make this change explicit.  He'll take her back over sexual tension, or he'll take her back for some other reason, and they will never mention the first two episodes again.  

I can understand not necessarily trusting the writers, but can't we wait to claim that Sheldon learned nothing from this and he will continue to treat her badly until we see that is the case?  I just can't see from what I know of your point of view how Sheldon was ever going to do anything in this situation that was going to be okay or good for you.  Not unless he grovelled at Amy's feet.  I guess it's really not for me to see or understand, but I'm trying to because I am genuinely curious.

1) As Boonaroma said before, he may be single now, but there's not the tiniest chance he won't get the girl at the end, do any of us really think Amy will marry another guy? of course not! now the question is how he will make his way to the altar, by getting away with everything, no matter what (as pretty much has been until now) or having a really balanced relationship with the woman he loves.

2) In my case it's not that difficult: Sheldon will be worthy of Amy again the day he clearly shows remorse for not having had enough respect for her and compromises to respect her from that moment on. That will be the moment (if ever happens) he will redeem himself to my eyes. I know future ups and downs in the relationship will be unavoidable, for the sake of drama, comedy and storytelling, but they will be worth it.

Well, I hope that not only does Sheldon grow from this, but that Amy does to.  Let's remember that Sheldon wasn't the only one that has issues and they need more than just Sheldon dealing with his issues for them to continue and have a successful relationship.

Also, to your first point, we as viewers of a tv show know that he is going to end up with the girl.  But in universe, Sheldon doesn't know that.  So yes, the fact that he is single and hurt is still very much a punishment and consequence for his actions.

Edited by nickelette424
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I can understand not necessarily trusting the writers, but can't we wait to claim that Sheldon learned nothing from this and he will continue to treat her badly until we see that is the case?  I just can't see from what I know of your point of view how Sheldon was ever going to do anything in this situation that was going to be okay or good for you.  Not unless he grovelled at Amy's feet.  I guess it's really not for me to see or understand, but I'm trying to because I am genuinely curious.

It's pretty simple.  It's a sitcom, so it can be framed around a joke. One sentence.  "Amy, I regret my behavior."  That's it.  The word order could be changed.  Of course subsequent to that, no more cracks about how gross she is for wanting sex or a future with him, or jabs at her intelligence or accomplishments.  That's all.  Everything else exactly the same.

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Well, I hope that not only does Sheldon grow from this, but that Amy does to.  Let's remember that Sheldon wasn't the only one that has issues and they need more than just Sheldon dealing with his issues for them to continue and have a successful relationship.

Also, to your first point, we as viewers of a tv show know that he is going to end up with the girl.  But in universe, Sheldon doesn't know that.  So yes, the fact that he is single and hurt is still very much a punishment and consequence for his actions.

Oh yes, she has to deal with the terrible issue that she shouldn't have let him to walk all over her so many times in the past. I'm just half-joking of course, I'm perfectly aware she's not perfect, but man, Sheldon could be less of a hoarder of flaws and leave something to her! (you can blame the writers for this :wink:)

The bolded part, true dat. But we could also say that Amy is also receiving enough punishment by not knowing she is bound to some day tie the knot with that magnificent specimen of the male gender, but since I guess that's not enough, she is at the same time being the receiver of constant mocking and suffering one rejection after the other (which make her feel she really has no other options), and while Sheldon got the priviledge of going through his moving on separated from her, she is possibly destined to have to pretend everything is all right and swallow her pain by spending time with him because now they are 'friends' again.

I've never said Sheldon had not been through pain, but she is always at least one step ahead of him, even in this respect.

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When did he ever make a crack that her wanting sex with him was gross?  And when was is the last time he made a crack at her for wanting a future with him?  The last time they talked about it he agreed that it was important to him too and started talking about moving to Mars with her and in his own Sheldon-y way said he that he wanted her by his side when/if he's dying.  

Sheldon has a lot to learn about tact, humility and maturity but let's not overstate his transgressions.

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Oh yes, she has to deal with the terrible issue that she shouldn't have let him to walk all over her so many times in the past. I'm just half-joking of course, I'm perfectly aware she's not perfect, but man, Sheldon could be less of a hoarder of flaws and leave something to her! (you can blame the writers for this :wink:)

The bolded part, true dat. But we could also say that Amy is also receiving enough punishment by not knowing she is bound to some day tie the knot with that magnificent specimen of the male gender, but since I guess that's not enough, she is at the same time being the receiver of constant mocking and suffering one rejection after the other (which make her feel she really has no other options), and while Sheldon got the priviledge of going through his moving on separated from her, she is possibly destined to have to pretend everything is all right and swallow her pain by spending time with him because now they are 'friends' again.

I've never said Sheldon had not been through pain, but she is always at least one step ahead of him, even in this respect.

What a minute.  Why does Amy feel like she has no other options?  I think they have shown here that she does have options.  And she got just as much time to move on separated from him as he did from her.  And it is well within her right to say to Sheldon that she cannot and will go back to being just friends if she feels like she can't handle it.  Sheldon is not making her be his friend.  If she doesn't want that to be her destiny, it doesn't have to be and no one is forcing her.

The last sentence again, sounds a lot like score keeping to me.  Who cares who is hurt first or last or whatever?  They were/are both hurting.  I hope that tptb don't treat the relationship this way.   "Well, Sheldon won the last three, so let's let Amy win the next 4 or so."  That isn't a healthy relationship either.

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I think at the end of the day they both need to change their attitude and embrace some things that each other want. just because you do not want this now doesn't mean you can't change your mind later. It's called progression. Human nature. Sheldon needs to realise that Amy has changed and she want things that normal relationships have. If Sheldon can kiss Amy passionately then I'm sorry his gems phobia is out the window and sex should not be a problem now. He knows amy wants intimacy, holding hands and flowers sometimes. it not a big deal. When you get into a relationship certain things in your life will have to change and if you are not willing to compromise then there is no point in being in a relationship. The problem here is that Amy has been willing to compromise to make it work but Sheldon not so much. But then again it not all Sheldon's fault. Amy didn't help matters by not putting her foot down and letting him think it was all gravy. Hopefully now they will get on the same page and sit down and agree or disagree on issues instead of leting things slide. It's their first relationship and they both will make mistakes and hopefully they will learn second time round. You know the saying. Learn from your mistakes. Things will work out in the end. Here's a little fun gif. :)

giphy.gif

Edited by Tonstar17
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