Debate Zone [Spoilers]Shipping Lanes: Season 9

[veejay]

16 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Except they never did go to see a movie Leonard picked.

From The Ornithophobia Diffusion:-

Leonard: Actually, you know what? I think it’s about time I pick a movie we see.

Penny: You pick plenty of movies.

Leonard: No. You always picked, and it was always the same. An hour and a half of beach houses in the rain until the woman turns around and realizes love was here all along.

Penny: But come on, that is a great movie, and it starts in ten minutes.

Leonard: I hate those movies.

Penny: No, you don’t.

Leonard: Yes, I do. The only reason I went is because you wanted to see them, and I wanted to have sex. To this day, I can’t see a Sandra Bullock movie poster without getting both bored and aroused.

...but suddenly:

Leonard: We're out as friends. This is not a date. Sex is off the table.
So, let's go learn how hydroelectric power might not be the environmental bargain you think it is.
Sorry. Spoiler alert.
Penny: All right, fine.
Leonard: Thanks. Tickets are 11 bucks. Not a date.

...so what's your point?

[Itwasdestined]

On 3 March 2016 at 2:57 AM, hokie3457 said:

...and I've been married for over 30 years to someone who has little time for a lot of my interests, common or otherwise.  There is something to be said for people of different backgrounds, interests, levels of intelligence coming together and building a long lasting life together.  Penny has proved that she has matured beyond the person she was when she was younger.  She is no longer the kind of "girls....not givin' guys like Leonard the time of day."  She counts among her best friends Bernadette and Amy, the sort of girls she previously had nothing to do with.  She calls Sheldon "one of my favorite people" even though he often exasperates her.  We hear a lot about Sheldon's growth, however Penny's growth equals and in many ways surpasses his.   

And I'll jump in as exhibit C of a Lenny fan loving to watch art imitating life. Tensor 40 years, hokie 30+ and me 25 years with our own Lenny like experience ( I can add my parents in as exhibit D - 55 years of mum detesting Golf days when Dad disappeared on weekends and later half the week in retirement until his stroke forced her to watch golf with him daily at the nursing home) Love isn't measured by the number of interests you share. Love is often undefinable. I know lots of people who have fallen out of love despite having similar jobs, following and playing the same sports, loving travel, watching the same shows and movies. They were sharing interests, not affection. Then I compare them to me and the missus. My interests are shared with my kids, her interests are shared with her girlfriends. What we have are similar beliefs, similar personalities and characteristics and an indescribable feeling for each other  that last well beyond whether she can sit in the same room while I'm watching Legends of Tomorrow and building Lego robots or I can go to the movies to watch a chick flick or stay in the same house while Bold and the Beautiful is on. I see all that in Lenny, despite Penny's occasional indifference and demeaning sarcasm, which by the way is forever present in my lasting marriage. I suppose it comes down to shippers identifying with what they find believable, recognisable and enjoyable in their lives. As an individual, I'm probably more Sheldon than Leonard but my relationship is so Lenny. And we shouldn't be questioned for our connection to a ship that seems implausible to others when it is so starkly real in our own lives. 

[Tonstar17]

His a man. That what we do. Surely you would know that and he is not malicious about it. Why is it a big thing. So stop it. Shamy are not perfect you don't see me pointing it out every second to put them down.

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

[SRAM]

43 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Except they never did go to see a movie Leonard picked.

From The Ornithophobia Diffusion:-

Leonard: Actually, you know what? I think it’s about time I pick a movie we see.

Penny: You pick plenty of movies.

Leonard: No. You always picked, and it was always the same. An hour and a half of beach houses in the rain until the woman turns around and realizes love was here all along.

Penny: But come on, that is a great movie, and it starts in ten minutes.

Leonard: I hate those movies.

Penny: No, you don’t.

Leonard: Yes, I do. The only reason I went is because you wanted to see them, and I wanted to have sex. To this day, I can’t see a Sandra Bullock movie poster without getting both bored and aroused.

You didn't watch last nights rerun, they were going to a movie Leonard picked until Penny dropped she committed them to spy with Bernadette.  Penny explained their love perfectly, 'The heart wants what the heart wants'.

[Einstein Von Brainstorm]

2 hours ago, A.D.A. said:

True. I guess my interpretation of the character was more along the lines of someone who would always be inventive (he is an engineer, after all, and a succesful one at that). However, that really is just that, intepretation. Maybe now that his life goal of getting laid is achieved, he really thinks he is at the peak of the journey of this human life and can stop trying (that would actually be a cool storyline, him finding a new goal). It does fit the message of the show. (Btw, I want to say that I still think Howardette can be quite cute together, I just don't like that one type of joke they do.)

I think he is still quite inventive even in his laziness like when he attached his fit bit to that contraption to fool Bernie  and now he's come up with this thing to make some extra money for the baby so maybe that will become his new goal? 

Quote

Oh, he was immature, that is true, but I think we're crossing the line from immature to... I don't want to say anything wrong, but let's say sometimes so unaware that he seems... vulnerable? Especially because they're also piling on the real-life mental problems like hoarding and panic attacks (birthday party, when he though Amy looked pretty and felt pressured) which are treated with more gravity than stuff like his germphobia was in the early days. I think I already mentioned once somewhere that "Sheldon needs a cup that gives him only three cheerios for car rides" right next to "I had sex with Sheldon" makes my toe nails roll up. I guess that's what I mean; he used to be childish, now he often seems child-like. Like @Cindi May said, it does have some parallels to Joey. I think the phenomenon is called Flanderization according to TV Tropes.

Ahh I get what you mean now and yes there's a line there that they are gonna have to be very careful with 

[Einstein Von Brainstorm]

40 minutes ago, Itwasdestined said:

And I'll jump in as exhibit C of a Lenny fan loving to watch art imitating life. Tensor 40 years, hokie 30+ and me 25 years with our own Lenny like experience ( I can add my parents in as exhibit D - 55 years of mum detesting Golf days when Dad disappeared on weekends and later half the week in retirement until his stroke forced her to watch golf with him daily at the nursing home) Love isn't measured by the number of interests you share. Love is often undefinable. I know lots of people who have fallen out of love despite having similar jobs, following and playing the same sports, loving travel, watching the same shows and movies. They were sharing interests, not affection. Then I compare them to me and the missus. My interests are shared with my kids, her interests are shared with her girlfriends. What we have are similar beliefs, similar personalities and characteristics and an indescribable feeling for each other  that last well beyond whether she can sit in the same room while I'm watching Legends of Tomorrow and building Lego robots or I can go to the movies to watch a chick flick or stay in the same house while Bold and the Beautiful is on. I see all that in Lenny, despite Penny's occasional indifference and demeaning sarcasm, which by the way is forever present in my lasting marriage. I suppose it comes down to shippers identifying with what they find believable, recognisable and enjoyable in their lives. As an individual, I'm probably more Sheldon than Leonard but my relationship is so Lenny. And we shouldn't be questioned for our connection to a ship that seems implausible to others when it is so starkly real in our own lives. 

Exactly you have that!, that is what needs to be shown between these two on screen!

I'm sure the majority of people must agree with that? surely nobody is happy with the adventures of Leonard and Penny at the kitchen island? 

[Tensor]

Reminder, critical comments about other ships ARE ALLOWED, in this thread.  Comments telling other posters what they should or shouldn't post, are not allowed. A couple of posts have been edited.  Stephen, one of yours was hidden, only because the comments you answered were hidden.  Your part of that post was fine.

[Itwasdestined]

3 hours ago, Einstein Von Brainstorm said:

Exactly you have that!, that is what needs to be shown between these two on screen!

I'm sure the majority of people must agree with that? surely nobody is happy with the adventures of Leonard and Penny at the kitchen island? 

I don't think anyone disagrees with the Lenny Island dilemma but that's separate from my perception of Lenny as opposed to those who lack a personal connection to their life. I enjoy the Shamy dynamic but miss a lot of the stuff Shamies drool over on this forum. On the other hand, I see myself and my wife in the mirror regardless of whether Lenny are sipping coffee in the kitchen, walking down the stairs, sitting in front of a TV, discussing their issues, texting each other, baby sitting a childish adult or squishing paint on their bed and body!!

[wowbagger]

I think that some of the aversion viewers have to the 'post-girlfriend show' is: well, some of it is related to some viewers' aversion to change, generally. Some of it may have to do with 'Awww, I liked watching the guys fail with women, and imagining myself in Sheldon's lofty, imperious place, while conveniently skipping over the fact that Sheldon wasn't presented as being above sex and romance, just not interested in them.'

And some of it may have to do with the fact that, over time, the writers' limitations when it comes to writing romantic relationships have begun to show. Initially, there seemed to be a number of different models at play: Leonard and Penny were two people with matching sexual appetites and perhaps not-so-matching other things, but they loved each other and had a basic camaraderie; Howard and Bernie were two people with, again, matching sexual appetites, but with different experiences of love and nurturing; and Sheldon and Amy were the two repressed, cerebral, peas-in-a-pod neurotics who had never had any inclination towards the ways of love and sex until they met each other, and even then, the love affair was one of the mind. Raj- well, sigh.

But over time (roughly Season Six, I guess), those dynamics shifted. The writers seemed to have only one model in mind, and all the relationships on the show were some variant of it: Woman As Socialiser/Caregiver, Man As Arrested Adolescent (and, in the case of Sheldon, Toddler). The change was the most visible and drastic with Amy, who catapulted overnight from the manic, Chaucer-fangirling, probably pansexual (hey, should've realised from the Chaucer!) eccentric, to the lugubrious sad-sack with a newly-minted Hilariously Lonely Youth, a yen for every single stereotypically girlish thing under the sun, and (with some honourable exceptions) not a whole lot else. But on some level the other couples were also moving into the arena of women who are more normal than their menfolk, who exercise loving but sometimes terrifying authority over them, and whose material success is hilariously castrating to their men (Howardette and later Lenny). Hey, show? The 1950s called. They'd like their understanding of gender back, please. There was a moment where it seemed Raj might buck the trend by helping to socialise Lucy, but nope.

And I guess all this wonderful gender stereotyping is linked to the writers'....issues....with self-loathing, as well. Around Seasons 2 to 4, roughly, the guys' nerdery was presented as something fun and exuberant. The comic book continuity they discussed was actually pretty detailed, and required at least intermediate understanding of what was actually happening. Yes, there were occasions when the show would pull back and have someone say 'Isn't this sad what we're doing?', but mercifully the very detail and joy with which nerdery was presented put paid to that sort of self-deprecation.

But even that has diminished over time. The show's markers of pop-culture nerdery are the very laziest, broadest, most mainstream signifiers you can possibly imagine. Game of Thrones? Not even the Song of Ice and Fire books, but Game of bloody Thrones? One of the most-discussed, most-illegally-downloaded, most-buzzed-about shows on television? The Lord of the Rings? Not Silmarillion, or particularly discussions of plot points in the books, but the acclaimed, highly-watched films? Star Wars trivia that anyone would know?

Now, some of that is to do with the nerds having inherited the earth, as von Brainstorm would rightly point out. I agree. But that doesn't mean that nerdery has to stand still and become mainstream. Nerds find a way to tunnel into arcana and obscure things even when the plebeian masses have discovered their beloved entertainment. The fact that these particular nerds haven't? Well, some of it is the writers' laziness. But some of it has to do with the writers' increasing self-loathing. At some point, the writers decided that there was only one model for adulthood and being in a 'proper' relationship. And the guys would struggle and squirm to avoid adulthood (because that's where the writers think comedy lies), but they would be disciplined and chastised and shamed or manipulated to understand that they were wrong. One way or the other.

Sheldon didn't particularly fancy traditional love or romance? Well, he must be traumatised and goaded into toeing the line. Amy will socialise him! What do you mean, Amy doesn't particularly fancy traditional love or romance, and doesn't seem in a position to socialise anyone? Well, she's only a secondary character, and female to boot. Tank her characterisation overnight, it's fine. Nobody will notice.

Bernie used to be a naive-but-bright scientist with a fondness for the perv Howard? Well, drag her into the position of martinet who mothers-and-sexes Howard in one of the most troubling depictions of an Oedipus complex on television!

Penny and Leonard used to basically meet on level terms? Have Penny complain about Leonard's toys and explicitly tie Leonard's craving for her affection to Leonard's own Oedipal issues! Yay!

And-best of all- at no point acknowledge that it is some bullshit that the women have been force-fitted into the roles of mothers and lovers! If at any point you have a male character helping a female character with doubts or issues (see: Lenny), undercut it as quickly as you can with some retrograde nonsense about her buying him a helicopter and/or outearning/castrating him! This is how relationships work!

[Judith]

1 hour ago, wowbagger said:

I think that some of the aversion viewers have to the 'post-girlfriend show' is: well, some of it is related to some viewers' aversion to change, generally. Some of it may have to do with 'Awww, I liked watching the guys fail with women, and imagining myself in Sheldon's lofty, imperious place, while conveniently skipping over the fact that Sheldon wasn't presented as being above sex and romance, just not interested in them.'

And some of it may have to do with the fact that, over time, the writers' limitations when it comes to writing romantic relationships have begun to show. Initially, there seemed to be a number of different models at play: Leonard and Penny were two people with matching sexual appetites and perhaps not-so-matching other things, but they loved each other and had a basic camaraderie; Howard and Bernie were two people with, again, matching sexual appetites, but with different experiences of love and nurturing; and Sheldon and Amy were the two repressed, cerebral, peas-in-a-pod neurotics who had never had any inclination towards the ways of love and sex until they met each other, and even then, the love affair was one of the mind. Raj- well, sigh.

But over time (roughly Season Six, I guess), those dynamics shifted. The writers seemed to have only one model in mind, and all the relationships on the show were some variant of it: Woman As Socialiser/Caregiver, Man As Arrested Adolescent (and, in the case of Sheldon, Toddler). The change was the most visible and drastic with Amy, who catapulted overnight from the manic, Chaucer-fangirling, probably pansexual (hey, should've realised from the Chaucer!) eccentric, to the lugubrious sad-sack with a newly-minted Hilariously Lonely Youth, a yen for every single stereotypically girlish thing under the sun, and (with some honourable exceptions) not a whole lot else. But on some level the other couples were also moving into the arena of women who are more normal than their menfolk, who exercise loving but sometimes terrifying authority over them, and whose material success is hilariously castrating to their men (Howardette and later Lenny). Hey, show? The 1950s called. They'd like their understanding of gender back, please. There was a moment where it seemed Raj might buck the trend by helping to socialise Lucy, but nope.

And I guess all this wonderful gender stereotyping is linked to the writers'....issues....with self-loathing, as well. Around Seasons 2 to 4, roughly, the guys' nerdery was presented as something fun and exuberant. The comic book continuity they discussed was actually pretty detailed, and required at least intermediate understanding of what was actually happening. Yes, there were occasions when the show would pull back and have someone say 'Isn't this sad what we're doing?', but mercifully the very detail and joy with which nerdery was presented put paid to that sort of self-deprecation.

But even that has diminished over time. The show's markers of pop-culture nerdery are the very laziest, broadest, most mainstream signifiers you can possibly imagine. Game of Thrones? Not even the Song of Ice and Fire books, but Game of bloody Thrones? One of the most-discussed, most-illegally-downloaded, most-buzzed-about shows on television? The Lord of the Rings? Not Silmarillion, or particularly discussions of plot points in the books, but the acclaimed, highly-watched films? Star Wars trivia that anyone would know?

Now, some of that is to do with the nerds having inherited the earth, as von Brainstorm would rightly point out. I agree. But that doesn't mean that nerdery has to stand still and become mainstream. Nerds find a way to tunnel into arcana and obscure things even when the plebeian masses have discovered their beloved entertainment. The fact that these particular nerds haven't? Well, some of it is the writers' laziness. But some of it has to do with the writers' increasing self-loathing. At some point, the writers decided that there was only one model for adulthood and being in a 'proper' relationship. And the guys would struggle and squirm to avoid adulthood (because that's where the writers think comedy lies), but they would be disciplined and chastised and shamed or manipulated to understand that they were wrong. One way or the other.

Sheldon didn't particularly fancy traditional love or romance? Well, he must be traumatised and goaded into toeing the line. Amy will socialise him! What do you mean, Amy doesn't particularly fancy traditional love or romance, and doesn't seem in a position to socialise anyone? Well, she's only a secondary character, and female to boot. Tank her characterisation overnight, it's fine. Nobody will notice.

Bernie used to be a naive-but-bright scientist with a fondness for the perv Howard? Well, drag her into the position of martinet who mothers-and-sexes Howard in one of the most troubling depictions of an Oedipus complex on television!

Penny and Leonard used to basically meet on level terms? Have Penny complain about Leonard's toys and explicitly tie Leonard's craving for her affection to Leonard's own Oedipal issues! Yay!

And-best of all- at no point acknowledge that it is some bullshit that the women have been force-fitted into the roles of mothers and lovers! If at any point you have a male character helping a female character with doubts or issues (see: Lenny), undercut it as quickly as you can with some retrograde nonsense about her buying him a helicopter and/or outearning/castrating him! This is how relationships work!

You make some great points. I think that the main thing to remember is that this is a sitcom (which means that they're going for the easy laugh) and that the show's main creaotors are men (which means that if you expect any good female insight or proper treatment of women, sadly you will probably be disappointed).

Add to that the fact that these men are self-professed nerds and then you start getting the whole picture. These are nerds, who carry god knows what baggage as far as women are concerned (on top of the innate male privilege and the patriarchal notions that I'm sure they carry) and who made it big with a show about people like them, so they're probably leaving out their fantasies and taking out their frustrations on the characters.

So, you get gender-stereotyping, stupid period jokes, Penny putting up with the guys' creepiness in the firdt seasons when in real life she should have called the police at least as far as Howard is concerned (remember him hiding that camera in her teddy bear?) and many other things that I'm forgetting right now.

So, what I'm saying is, my expectations are practically non-existent when it comes to issues like these.

[Stephen Hawking]

Also, this isn't the only sitcom, where the girlfriend acts like the mother.

There's Chandler and Monica, in Friends.

[JE7]

2 hours ago, wowbagger said:

I think that some of the aversion viewers have to the 'post-girlfriend show' is: well, some of it is related to some viewers' aversion to change, generally. Some of it may have to do with 'Awww, I liked watching the guys fail with women, and imagining myself in Sheldon's lofty, imperious place, while conveniently skipping over the fact that Sheldon wasn't presented as being above sex and romance, just not interested in them.'

And some of it may have to do with the fact that, over time, the writers' limitations when it comes to writing romantic relationships have begun to show. Initially, there seemed to be a number of different models at play: Leonard and Penny were two people with matching sexual appetites and perhaps not-so-matching other things, but they loved each other and had a basic camaraderie; Howard and Bernie were two people with, again, matching sexual appetites, but with different experiences of love and nurturing; and Sheldon and Amy were the two repressed, cerebral, peas-in-a-pod neurotics who had never had any inclination towards the ways of love and sex until they met each other, and even then, the love affair was one of the mind. Raj- well, sigh.

But over time (roughly Season Six, I guess), those dynamics shifted. The writers seemed to have only one model in mind, and all the relationships on the show were some variant of it: Woman As Socialiser/Caregiver, Man As Arrested Adolescent (and, in the case of Sheldon, Toddler). The change was the most visible and drastic with Amy, who catapulted overnight from the manic, Chaucer-fangirling, probably pansexual (hey, should've realised from the Chaucer!) eccentric, to the lugubrious sad-sack with a newly-minted Hilariously Lonely Youth, a yen for every single stereotypically girlish thing under the sun, and (with some honourable exceptions) not a whole lot else. But on some level the other couples were also moving into the arena of women who are more normal than their menfolk, who exercise loving but sometimes terrifying authority over them, and whose material success is hilariously castrating to their men (Howardette and later Lenny). Hey, show? The 1950s called. They'd like their understanding of gender back, please. There was a moment where it seemed Raj might buck the trend by helping to socialise Lucy, but nope.

And I guess all this wonderful gender stereotyping is linked to the writers'....issues....with self-loathing, as well. Around Seasons 2 to 4, roughly, the guys' nerdery was presented as something fun and exuberant. The comic book continuity they discussed was actually pretty detailed, and required at least intermediate understanding of what was actually happening. Yes, there were occasions when the show would pull back and have someone say 'Isn't this sad what we're doing?', but mercifully the very detail and joy with which nerdery was presented put paid to that sort of self-deprecation.

But even that has diminished over time. The show's markers of pop-culture nerdery are the very laziest, broadest, most mainstream signifiers you can possibly imagine. Game of Thrones? Not even the Song of Ice and Fire books, but Game of bloody Thrones? One of the most-discussed, most-illegally-downloaded, most-buzzed-about shows on television? The Lord of the Rings? Not Silmarillion, or particularly discussions of plot points in the books, but the acclaimed, highly-watched films? Star Wars trivia that anyone would know?

Now, some of that is to do with the nerds having inherited the earth, as von Brainstorm would rightly point out. I agree. But that doesn't mean that nerdery has to stand still and become mainstream. Nerds find a way to tunnel into arcana and obscure things even when the plebeian masses have discovered their beloved entertainment. The fact that these particular nerds haven't? Well, some of it is the writers' laziness. But some of it has to do with the writers' increasing self-loathing. At some point, the writers decided that there was only one model for adulthood and being in a 'proper' relationship. And the guys would struggle and squirm to avoid adulthood (because that's where the writers think comedy lies), but they would be disciplined and chastised and shamed or manipulated to understand that they were wrong. One way or the other.

Sheldon didn't particularly fancy traditional love or romance? Well, he must be traumatised and goaded into toeing the line. Amy will socialise him! What do you mean, Amy doesn't particularly fancy traditional love or romance, and doesn't seem in a position to socialise anyone? Well, she's only a secondary character, and female to boot. Tank her characterisation overnight, it's fine. Nobody will notice.

Bernie used to be a naive-but-bright scientist with a fondness for the perv Howard? Well, drag her into the position of martinet who mothers-and-sexes Howard in one of the most troubling depictions of an Oedipus complex on television!

Penny and Leonard used to basically meet on level terms? Have Penny complain about Leonard's toys and explicitly tie Leonard's craving for her affection to Leonard's own Oedipal issues! Yay!

And-best of all- at no point acknowledge that it is some bullshit that the women have been force-fitted into the roles of mothers and lovers! If at any point you have a male character helping a female character with doubts or issues (see: Lenny), undercut it as quickly as you can with some retrograde nonsense about her buying him a helicopter and/or outearning/castrating him! This is how relationships work!

TV shows are written to entertain the masses and turn a profit so yes the show has mainstreamed the charectors and dialog if you feel the need to lament this basic truth then feel free as you have an excellent way with words but hold on to the eulogy because the show is far from dead and is in fact quite healthy by the criteria it is judged by ratings and revenue, the casuals In their millions continue to tune in every week and that IS the bottom line

Analyzing the writers mental issues may be fun but did you ever consider that they simply write what sells?  That is after all their job and judging TBBT as a TV sitcom they are doing it quite successfully

Edited March 6, 2016 by JE7

[Nogravitasatall]

On 6/3/2016 at 11:29 PM, JE7 said:

TV shows are written to entertain the masses and turn a profit so yes the show has mainstreamed the charectors and dialog if you feel the need to lament this basic truth then feel free as you have an excellent way with words but hold on to the eulogy because the show is far from dead and is in fact quite healthy by the criteria it is judged by ratings and revenue, the casuals In their millions continue to tune in every week and that IS the bottom line

Analyzing the writers mental issues may be fun but did you ever consider that they simply write what sells?  That is after all their job and judging TBBT as a TV sitcom they are doing it quite successfully

Things full of sugar sell too - as does heroin -  but there are alternatives that have more nourishment and can still be popular - fresh fruit for instance.

It would be rewarding  if TBBT strived for a different kind of quality rather just going for mass ratings. M*A*S*H is a poor comparative, because the subject matter was meatier, but let's set that as an example of a popular comedy that still dealt with issues or pushed forward to reflect changes happening in real time rather than circling around stereotypes and wishing for things to be the same.

They were pushing onward earlier, as Wowbagger notes. Then they stopped.

[JE7]

Your happy with your  your Apple personally I want a jelly donut and you don't buy them at the same place... Welcome to dunkin donuts

[Nogravitasatall]

3 hours ago, JE7 said:

Your happy with your  your Apple personally I want a jelly donut and you don't buy them at the same place... Welcome to dunkin donuts

The thing is they changed the content without changing the label. It's a common enough ploy, but it's a little dodgy. To some extent it's been a slow running bait and switch. They have swapped novelty for familiarity. Nobody has to strain to hard to suck down their jelly doughnut and it is comforting. But they moved away from their creation, which was originally appealing to me, exactly because it was unfamiliar and novel and took a tiny bit of chewing. And they have a big audience and a lot of goodwill. Would that really be worth nothing if they were to choose not to write just what is good enough and sells, but to write what is a little challenging, is good, and sells.

wishing, I guess. 10 years is a long run. And I do still laugh. But I also still feel that having these extraordinary folk fall into the same ruts as everyone else is an opportunity lost. Getting this far is an achievement, but they haven't finished up as they began. Still, maybe they can push all the way through normal, and come out the other side. But, I'm no longer desperate to find out. I'll just wait it out.

[Carlos]

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 1:58 PM, A.D.A. said:

Howard's creepiness was often past the line for me as well (webcam teddy, seriously, someone read him the riot act ), but he was generally a character who had many unqiue ideas and his dependence on his mom was more a funny-weird psychological codependence (although obviously she babied him a bit, he could still cut his own food). While I agree that he needed development of some sort in the long run to not get kicked out of the group, I don't get how he went from the energetic guy he was to Bernadette's lazy sitcom husband. Seriously, I can't praise Simon enough for wrenching any comedy out of the jokes he is sometimes handed. (I agree about Raj, by the way. They obviously have no idea what to do with his character.)

I'm one of these people who don't really like the idea that the less childish Sheldon of Season 1-3 actually needed "fixing" because the idea that you absolutely need to "fix" a human who does not hurt himself or others and just seems to have a different idea of a fulfilled life than sex-marriage-2.5-kids is already a little insulting. I do agree that past-Season-7 Sheldon needs development. Tons of it. Just to bring him back to the level of maturity that he started out with once upon a time. However, considering Amy, I think the sad truth is that she is never going to go back to being weird (as much as I wish she would - you know how rare it is to find a character who shares my fangirling of Chaucer???) because she is usually shown with Sheldon and the easiest way to get a laugh out of the audience with Sheldon is to have a straight (wo)man make funny faces at his eccentricity and, as discussed above, the writing hasn't exactly gotten more refined. Cue Amy making a sex joke and Sheldon not getting it Version 8923789023792379789237923892389

I agree with 95% of your post. I agree with what you say about Howard in principle, but it is not how I perceived him. I think it's a testament of how good an actor Simon really is that while it was totally wrong for him to be creepy, no matter how hard I tried, I could never really hate him for it, because Simon made me be able to see through the façade , and see that underneath all of that behavior there was a really sensitive caring human being. ( I hope I'm making myself sort of clear. (Fingers crossed).

There's another thing I don't agree with. If you're counting the versions of a specific setup please be more accurate. You mention in regards to the "Amy making a sex joke and Sheldon not getting it" version 8923789023792379789237923892389 when according to my observations, they clearly are in version 8946689023792379789238936907695 at the very least   .

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 2:16 PM, Strawberry PopTart Fan said:

Me too. And in answer to the oft asked question"What do they talk about? (after the coitus). They talk about what lots of other young couples talk about./ What shall we have for dinner?/ What restaurant do you want to go to?/Really loved the movie. Next week we'll go see the one you pick./Thanks for watching Sex and the City with me when I was sick. You are my Sweetie./Let's have a "Harry Potter "marathon this week end.? How was work today. They talk about the little things and the big things lots of couples talk about.  Honey?/When shall we have kids?? How many? What will we name them. I hope the girls are pretty like you./Once they have kids, they'll  have plenty more to talk about!  Sure Penny and Leonard are different, but they REALLY like each other. They have both had other options, but have chosen each other after knowing each other for a very long time.

 Leonard says Penny is hot and pretty too much?  I never had a problem with any man I've been with telling me that. Lots of women appreciate a complement from their beloved whether they are goddesses or not. It's nice to know that your partner finds you attractive, or nice or smart or talented whether you are a man or a woman.  I don't think that's such a crime.  And Leonard likes when Penny compliments him . People who like each other do that. As far as them only  having sex in common. They have a whole life together in common with the love and companionship of good friends they also share their life with,  but I don't think that their sexual compatibility is a small thing, especially in the early years of a relationship. They both like it and they like it with each other and that's a good thing and helps keep their  bond close. Not all young marrieds are so lucky.

I find the relationship appealing and believable. To each his/her own.

I've been married for almost 24 years and I tell my wife how beautiful she is everyday. Since when is that not OK? I mean I do it because I really feel it, but when she gives me back that very slight smile letting me know she appreciates it, I feel in heaven. I don't see anything wrong with it.

[3ku11]

Lenny should of got married in s6 finalie. Since then they prolonged it. Dragged it out. Now they are married THEY are stagnant. And a certain subset of the audience has tuned out. Now? Ppl.want more Lenny. Tptb just dont seem to find the time. Its like Wheres Waldo. THEY found Waldo. But they still hate Waldo.

[Stephen Hawking]

1 hour ago, SRAM said:

Is it me?  None of those kisses seem like acting kisses to me.

 

1 hour ago, hokie3457 said:

I agree SRAM, but this is where we get ourselves in trouble......

Some of those kisses were when they were actually a couple, so I would imagine that helped them to look pretty real.

Mind you, some of those Shamy kisses, in Earworm and Opening Night, also looked pretty real, which goes to show, if you've got good actors, even acting kisses can look very real.

[veejay]

7 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

 

Some of those kisses were when they were actually a couple, so I would imagine that helped them to look pretty real.

Mind you, some of those Shamy kisses, in Earworm and Opening Night, also looked pretty real, which goes to show, if you've got good actors, even acting kisses can look very real.

..and we’re back to the obvious.

[Chrismo]

8 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

 

Some of those kisses were when they were actually a couple, so I would imagine that helped them to look pretty real.

Mind you, some of those Shamy kisses, in Earworm and Opening Night, also looked pretty real, which goes to show, if you've got good actors, even acting kisses can look very real.

Comparing Lenny and Shamy kisses. Like comparing LeBron James basketball skills to a 5 year old.

[Tonstar17]

Lenny dating or not. Their kisses are always so passionate.The different is the body language and not stiff as a stick when kissing.

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[Stephen Hawking]

16 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

Comparing Lenny and Shamy kisses. Like comparing LeBron James basketball skills to a 5 year old.

I'm not comparing them.

I'm saying all the actors are excellent, at on-screen kisses.

On 3/4/2016 at 9:18 PM, Tonstar17 said:

Except they never did go to see a movie Leonard picked.

They did that night.

They saw the documentary on hydro-electricity.

[Tonstar17]

Some are better than others they make it believable. Some just meh.

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[Nogravitasatall]

From the last two episodes it seems that some magical effect, in someway contemporaneous with Sheldon having sex, has made Sheldon a joy and a saint. That's ridiculous. And unfunny.

[hokie3457]

11 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

From the last two episodes it seems that some magical effect, in someway contemporaneous with Sheldon having sex, has made Sheldon a joy and a saint. That's ridiculous. And unfunny.

He said it himself: "I'm a delight!" (sarcasm sign fully on display...)