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[Spoilers]Shipping Lanes: Season 9


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Lenny got screwed, not just with the wedding, but with the events leading up to and the aftermath. I don't think that it is a terrible idea in theory for Leonard to have slipped, feel terrible about i

I know this might be a ca-ray-zeee idea but can we like not have a Shenny panic attack every time Sheldon and Penny have a scene together or Jim dares to say that he likes -gasp!- working with Kaley!?

Sheldon does depend too much on Lenny as parental figures, but the ironic thing is that I think Lenny also depend a great deal on Sheldon. They kind of use him to not have to deal with issues in their

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21 hours ago, vasu said:

I don't think penny would do anything like that......however leonard on the other hand cannot be trusted.....

I think leonard will do something again which will infuriate penny (may be about her acting or her current job) and finally she has enough of leonard's whiny bs and then probably go to Sheldon for comfort.....

For all those who think the shennys have all left.... May I present exhibit A

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13 minutes ago, JE7 said:

For all those who think the shennys have all left.... May I present exhibit A

 

And exhibit B

 

How do you show remorse for something that at the time didn't exist?

The writers didn't think ul the kiss then wait two years they thought it up writing 8:24 before then there was nothing to be remorsefull about. But leonard haters can't be bothered by unimportant things like facts if they don't make Leonard look bad

My answer for these two: they are both on my "ignore" list.

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4 hours ago, wowbagger said:

in-show, on-screen, Penny has had a long term relationship with Leonard, to whom she has never (that we know of) been unfaithful.

in-show, on-screen, Leonard has had relationships with Priya and with Penny. He wanted Penny to give him advice on how to cheat on Priya, and we know that he cheated on Penny.

I wouldn't call him a serial cheater based on this sample size, but I would argue that we have seen more evidence on-screen to suggest that cheating is consistent with Leonard's characterisation than with Penny's.

Leonard's revelation was still Some Bullshit, though. Whether or not I buy that Leonard would cheat on Penny, I do not for a moment buy that he would have displayed no on-screen twitchiness or guilt or remorse about something that apparently bothered him enough that he was willing to sabotage his marriage to the woman of his dreams. So it was obviously a contrivance. And then the writers have him compound cheating and sitting on the information for two years, by having him omit the little detail that he sees his little tonsil-hockey friend at work, and furthermore have him be all pissy about Penny's understandable confusion and wrath. And THEN throw the characters of Amy and Bernie under the bus by having them twitter and bleat that Penny should-what?-be grateful that Leonard came back to her?

show, do you WANT me to loathe Leonard? Because that superb string of writing choices is a master class in Turning a Basically Quite Likeable Romantic Lead Into Public Enemy No.One.

but I should reserve my praise. Because what the show has done with Raj is even more impressive.

hmmm. Raj has always been questionable. It's not a recent thing. He was the "creepy" Howard's accomplice. See "The Closer" and the villian Stroh and his accomplices for the non-comedic version. But yes, they elevating Sheldon (to sainthood) by making him appear better and the others appear worse.

Forget consistency. Think of the new audience instead (points to Shamy cohort) who control more household/discretionary spending than old geeks who have moved on.  And the new geeks arent watching the show their carers watch.

Edited by Nogravitasatall
added discrentionary spending - substituted carer
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5 hours ago, wowbagger said:

in-show, on-screen, Penny has had a long term relationship with Leonard, to whom she has never (that we know of) been unfaithful.

in-show, on-screen, Leonard has had relationships with Priya and with Penny. He wanted Penny to give him advice on how to cheat on Priya, and we know that he cheated on Penny.

I wouldn't call him a serial cheater based on this sample size, but I would argue that we have seen more evidence on-screen to suggest that cheating is consistent with Leonard's characterisation than with Penny's.

Leonard's revelation was still Some Bullshit, though. Whether or not I buy that Leonard would cheat on Penny, I do not for a moment buy that he would have displayed no on-screen twitchiness or guilt or remorse about something that apparently bothered him enough that he was willing to sabotage his marriage to the woman of his dreams. So it was obviously a contrivance. And then the writers have him compound cheating and sitting on the information for two years, by having him omit the little detail that he sees his little tonsil-hockey friend at work, and furthermore have him be all pissy about Penny's understandable confusion and wrath. And THEN throw the characters of Amy and Bernie under the bus by having them twitter and bleat that Penny should-what?-be grateful that Leonard came back to her?

show, do you WANT me to loathe Leonard? Because that superb string of writing choices is a master class in Turning a Basically Quite Likeable Romantic Lead Into Public Enemy No.One.

but I should reserve my praise. Because what the show has done with Raj is even more impressive.

Wow..bagger (lol) What can I say, you're getting better all the time! Love the post, and the bolded part...just perfect! I agree with you 100% the boat kiss and circumstances surrounding it smell funny, I guess we could say they reek of bullshit. I honestly count Leonard's cheating incidents as one (with Alice) on Priya. I know it is a total double standard but since everyone hated her not many of us seemed to mind that much, did we? But truth be told he did cheat on Priya, even if a lot of that episode seemed to be played just for laughs.

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18 hours ago, Einstein Von Brainstorm said:

Someone remind me when Penny cheated - I'm drawing a blank! 

I remember Penny saying to the girls, that she once told a guy that she had slept with his brother while she was having sex with him, and that she´d told the other brother the same story, while they had sex. Unfortunately I can´t remember which episode it was.

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56 minutes ago, Desdemona said:

I remember Penny saying to the girls, that she once told a guy that she had slept with his brother while she was having sex with him, and that she´d told the other brother the same story, while they had sex. Unfortunately I can´t remember which episode it was.

That's the dialogue I was trying to remember.  Someone was trying to label Leonard as a serial cheater, once a cheater always a cheater, inferring Penny should dump him.  They forgot that Penny's past cheating makes Leonard look like a saint.  I was trying to make the point that the boat kiss was blown out of proportion and there is probably a very good reason why she forgave him.

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2 minutes ago, SRAM said:

That's the dialogue I was trying to remember.  Someone was trying to label Leonard as a serial cheater, once a cheater always a cheater, inferring Penny should dump him.  They forgot that Penny's past cheating makes Leonard look like a saint.  I was trying to make the point that the boat kiss was blown out of proportion and there is probably a very good reason why she forgave him.

I think the biggest reason she forgave him is that she loves him deeply....

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1 hour ago, hokie3457 said:

I think the biggest reason she forgave him is that she loves him deeply....

Plus, the fact, that she knows the circumstances under which this kiss happened. Leonard and Mandy were both drunk when they kiss and Penny knows from her own experiences how things like that can happen if alcohol is involved.

Remember when she and Raj got drunk and woke up in bed both half naked. Of course, nothing happened but it  could have happened and Penny knows that.

They both committed errors in the past and they surely will do some errors in the future (Hopefully, no more cheating!).But as long as they are honest to each other and talk about their problems, I´m sure they can manage them.

 

 

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On 16 March 2016 at 9:39 PM, wowbagger said:

in-show, on-screen, Penny has had a long term relationship with Leonard, to whom she has never (that we know of) been unfaithful.

in-show, on-screen, Leonard has had relationships with Priya and with Penny. He wanted Penny to give him advice on how to cheat on Priya, and we know that he cheated on Penny.

I wouldn't call him a serial cheater based on this sample size, but I would argue that we have seen more evidence on-screen to suggest that cheating is consistent with Leonard's characterisation than with Penny's.

Leonard's revelation was still Some Bullshit, though. Whether or not I buy that Leonard would cheat on Penny, I do not for a moment buy that he would have displayed no on-screen twitchiness or guilt or remorse about something that apparently bothered him enough that he was willing to sabotage his marriage to the woman of his dreams. So it was obviously a contrivance. And then the writers have him compound cheating and sitting on the information for two years, by having him omit the little detail that he sees his little tonsil-hockey friend at work, and furthermore have him be all pissy about Penny's understandable confusion and wrath. And THEN throw the characters of Amy and Bernie under the bus by having them twitter and bleat that Penny should-what?-be grateful that Leonard came back to her?

show, do you WANT me to loathe Leonard? Because that superb string of writing choices is a master class in Turning a Basically Quite Likeable Romantic Lead Into Public Enemy No.One.

but I should reserve my praise. Because what the show has done with Raj is even more impressive.

Weird_guy_this.gif.0adab248603b7abc4fdf0

I loved Leonard before that episode, he was this sweet cute little geeky guy who wanted the girl but didn't think he was good enough!
Then they write this shit: "I love Pryia, I think we could get married one day BUT I totally want to bang this girl I've known for exactly 3 minutes!"
(I will swear in court that this was the actual line!) 

What the actual france was that about?! 

I never minded Pryia, as far as I was concerned Leonard and Penny were end game (and I was right! 10 points to Slytherin!) I just presumed that the Pryia/Leonard relationship was a filler to stop Lenny from getting together too soon/help Penny realise that she kinda wanted the geek after all and that it would fizzle out at some point. 

Having said that I actually want Leonard and Penny together, after the Comic book girl nonsense and the follow up boat girl crap I just don't love Leonard like I used to :( 

Oh and Raj go and have relations with himself! :angry: 

8 hours ago, Desdemona said:

I remember Penny saying to the girls, that she once told a guy that she had slept with his brother while she was having sex with him, and that she´d told the other brother the same story, while they had sex. Unfortunately I can´t remember which episode it was.

I don't remember her saying that she was in an exclusive relationship with either of them though? just that she was sleeping with them both, I could be wrong! 

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I don't have much to say about this except that I try not to take comedy too seriously, because here's the thing: in comedy, writers will throw characters under the bus if it means they're gonna get a joke out of it. On Friends, they had Ross try to sleep with his cousin (!) because she was hot and he hadn't seen her since they were kids. That's why I often find it stressful to watch comedies. Once you get invested in the characters, the things the writers will do to them in order to get laughs just make you mad. 

We're simply not meant to take these characters and their flaws too seriously. When it's drama it's not a problem, because then the writers can tackle issues in a much more serious manner. It doesn't have to be played for laughs.

Kevin Pollak put it really well: "Some of the lazy writing you see on TV is this character assassination that makes me insane, where - usually in the comedies - anything for a joke. So if it means a character is suddenly an idiot and he's been intelligent until now, but it's funnier if he's stupid in the scene." 

Edited by No Regrets
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And so it seems that if we have grown fond of a character over the years, it's easier to ignore or filter out some of the distasteful stuff. And if we've developed dislike for a particular character, it's easy to zoom in on the negative and expand upon it.

And it's a bit like that in real life too. Like with ex-husbands.

Edited by Strawberry PopTart Fan
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3 minutes ago, Strawberry PopTart Fan said:

And so it seems that if we have grown fond of a character over the years, it's easier to ignore or filter out some of the distasteful stuff. And if we've developed dislike for a particular character, it's easy to zoom in on the negative and expand upon it.

And it's a bit like that in real life too. Like with ex-husbands.

That is the "human" factor when forming opinions.  We see and ingnore what we will......Very cogent post SPTF!

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17 hours ago, Einstein Von Brainstorm said:

Weird_guy_this.gif.0adab248603b7abc4fdf0

I loved Leonard before that episode, he was this sweet cute little geeky guy who wanted the girl but didn't think he was good enough!
Then they write this shit: "I love Pryia, I think we could get married one day BUT I totally want to bang this girl I've known for exactly 3 minutes!"
(I will swear in court that this was the actual line!) 

What the actual france was that about?! 

I never minded Pryia, as far as I was concerned Leonard and Penny were end game (and I was right! 10 points to Slytherin!) I just presumed that the Pryia/Leonard relationship was a filler to stop Lenny from getting together too soon/help Penny realise that she kinda wanted the geek after all and that it would fizzle out at some point. 

Having said that I actually want Leonard and Penny together, after the Comic book girl nonsense and the follow up boat girl crap I just don't love Leonard like I used to :( 

Oh and Raj go and have relations with himself! :angry: 

I don't remember her saying that she was in an exclusive relationship with either of them though? just that she was sleeping with them both, I could be wrong! 

I know what you mean, I was willing to let a lot of what Sheldon has done go until he tortured Leonard with that sweater.  He knew the pain he was putting his so called 'Best Friend' through, over a stupid movie CD, when he told Amy he had planned it for a long time as a teachable moment and he said that with glee.  Sheldon was a complete ass and there was absolutely no excuse for making your friend do that except hate and revenge, so I was done with Sheldon then and will not accept excuses for his behavior anymore.

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6 hours ago, No Regrets said:

I don't have much to say about this except that I try not to take comedy too seriously, because here's the thing: in comedy, writers will throw characters under the bus if it means they're gonna get a joke out of it. On Friends, they had Ross try to sleep with his cousin (!) because she was hot and he hadn't seen her since they were kids. That's why I often find it stressful to watch comedies. Once you get invested in the characters, the things the writers will do to them in order to get laughs just make you mad. 

We're simply not meant to take these characters and their flaws too seriously. When it's drama it's not a problem, because then the writers can tackle issues in a much more serious manner. It doesn't have to be played for laughs.

Kevin Pollak put it really well: "Some of the lazy writing you see on TV is this character assassination that makes me insane, where - usually in the comedies - anything for a joke. So if it means a character is suddenly an idiot and he's been intelligent until now, but it's funnier if he's stupid in the scene." 

Just as an aside, go back to friends and and note the difference in tone. TBBT is much meaner. It didn't used to be, back when Leonard and Penny were sweet young things.

But, TBBT has built their latter fortune on the back of a character who, most of the time, lacks empathy, still gains sympathy, but is fundamentally an extremely self centred and selfish person.  That is the premise. A character who has made it ok to say things like "old people who can't use computers should be killed", mocked "political correctness" (the offer of ""Roots" as a gift to a person of colour), who modelled behavioural control on an unwitting subject and planned the physical degredation of a emotionally dependent pseudo-brother (itchy sweater) and has recently offered notional, not real and material, reparations to a victim he has tormented for years. There are many other such events.

It hasn't been the odd flip as No Regrets discussed, like Leonard's indiscretion, it's been a consistent type of bad behaviour that has portrayed sympathetically .  There isn't any penalty applied for his bad acts and in fact the character is lauded. Further, the audience gets an emotional reward for their acceptance of the character and his behaviours. All those negative things and he is the show's hero? There has to be an effect.

I'm sure this hasn't been by design, it's just been an evolution. But it bothers me. Thinks, hey this is the most popular character on TV. Loved, in fact. And then I look at the political. 

I think maybe it bothers the creatives. Hence the recent sanctification and conversion.

Edited by Nogravitasatall
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8 minutes ago, Nogravitasatall said:

Just as an aside, go back to friends and and note the difference in tone. TBBT is much meaner. It didn't used to be, back when Leonard and Penny were sweet young things.

But, TBBT has built their latter fortune on the back of a character who, most of the time, lacks empathy, still gains sympathy, but is fundamentally an extremely self centred and selfish person.  That is the premise. A character who has made it ok to say things like "old people who can't use computers should be killed", mocked "political correctness" (the offer of ""Roots" as a gift to a person of colour), who modelled behavioural control on an unwitting subject and planned the physical degredation of a emotionally dependent pseudo-brother (itchy sweater) and has recently offered notional, not real and material, reparations to a victim he has tormented for years. There are many other such events.

It hasn't been the odd flip as No Regrets discussed, like Leonard's indiscretion, it's been a consistent type of bad behaviour that has portrayed sympathetically .  There isn't any penalty applied for his bad acts and in fact the character is lauded. Further, the audience gets an emotional reward for their acceptance of the character and his behaviours. All those negative things and he is the show's hero? There has to be an effect.

I'm sure this hasn't been by design, it's just been an evolution. But it bothers me. Thinks, hey this is the most popular character on TV. Loved, in fact. And then I look at the political. 

I think maybe it bothers the creatives. Hence the recent sanctification and conversion.

There is a moment in the movie The Natural where the Angel of Death (played by Barbara Hershey) physically changes her attention and point of view from the Babe Ruth like character, The Whammer to the story's hero, Roy Hobbs. TBBT did a similar thing in Season 7, switching the attention from Leonard and his pursuit of Penny to a focus on Sheldon and his journey towards becoming a real boy.

This is all well and good if that is where your interest lies, but for those of us who preferred the other incarration of our favorite show long for a return of the previous attention.

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53 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

There is a moment in the movie The Natural where the Angel of Death (played by Barbara Hershey) physically changes her attention and point of view from the Babe Ruth like character, The Whammer to the story's hero, Roy Hobbs. TBBT did a similar thing in Season 7, switching the attention from Leonard and his pursuit of Penny to a focus on Sheldon and his journey towards becoming a real boy.

This is all well and good if that is where your interest lies, but for those of us who preferred the other incarration of our favorite show long for a return of the previous attention.

True, but my inference was about politics . Hehe. They tapped the zeitgeist without knowing it - Sheldon is from a white underclass; he happens to be good at science, but at core strongly holds reactionary values and he has successfully dominated, through concerted bullying,  the  liberal values as represented by Leonard.

Penny, the bucolic  mid-westerner has sided with Sheldon too. She abandoned her artistic/progressive inclinations and became corporatist.

Hello unwitting liberal writers. What did you do? 

Edited by Nogravitasatall
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That is one of the reasons Amy works with Sheldon, she started out being just like him, but the girls made her more of a real woman and brought her out of her she'll.  Now changed Amy is like Sheldon's guide to become more normal, taking the reins from Leonard, to bring Sheldon more into the world of human interaction, by being his girlfriend..  She is actually making him more normal, remember it was Amy that was the influenced him to go on his apology tour.

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Sheldon and Amy really fit perfectly together. They have enough similarities to be able to relate to each other but not so many that they would get bored with each other or stay stagnant.

They both needed someone desperately to help them with their issues and bring them into new situations - that is more on Amy's side though, she is more flexible and has more common sense than Sheldon - he needs a bit of flexibility in his life and someone who can get him out of his weird funks.

So, Amy provides him the opportunity to flourish in new social situations while still keeping her own unique perspective which in turn makes him feel safe because it's similar to his own, while Sheldon offers her social stability through him and his friends - his stability and her flexibility (I know they're not really antonyms but humor me. Lol.)  work great together.

At the same time they can connect, communicate and have fun with each other on a level that they never could with anyone else. Amy is the only one Sheldon considers to be truly on his level and from very early on in their relationship (season 5) he would turn to her for advice and would only listen to her even though the others basically told him the same thing.

I find it interesting that Amy started to slowly change and yet Sheldon didn't let her go, even though all the signs were there and he even wondered: "What happened to you?". It's always been obvious to me that he's a very vulnerable and an incredibly damaged individual who needed someone to show him the way in just the right...well, way. I think it was the Opening Night were P and B made fun of his knocking - he called them "Mean girls". I think that by now all the characters have made fun of his issues - Amy would never do that and I think he knows it.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I think Sheldon is a very misunderstood character. People who hate him (and that's fine if you do) probably won't care but I'm saying it anyway. Some of the things he does and says are bad (intentionaly or unintentionaly) but it's not like anyone ever tells him to go f*ck himself or try to help him change. Amy is the only one who has consistedly tried to help him when he's being unintentionaly mean or put him in his place when he's mean and he knows it. There are, of course, times when they were mean together (experiment on L and P) but this just adds to their charm and times when she herself should have told him to f*ck off but she's only human and in love.

But what about the rest? Why won't Leonard tell him to go have relations with himself (as another poster said about Raj, I think it was EvB) when Sheldon repeatedly insults him about his job, or Howard for that matter? You can't control other people's behaviour but you can control how you react to it. Shouldn't they defend themselves?

And honestly, I don't think that Sheldon would collaborate with Leonard if he really thought so little of him. It's not Sheldon's fault that Leonard is such a doormat and is so unhealthily attached to him.

Now, if you want you can look at it from the writers' POV but I'm not going to because I've already written a thesis and it doesn't really interest me that much.

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12 minutes ago, Judith said:

Sheldon and Amy really fit perfectly together. They have enough similarities to be able to relate to each other but not so many that they would get bored with each other or stay stagnant.

They both needed someone desperately to help them with their issues and bring them into new situations - that is more on Amy's side though, she is more flexible and has more common sense than Sheldon - he needs a bit of flexibility in his life and someone who can get him out of his weird funks.

So, Amy provides him the opportunity to flourish in new social situations while still keeping her own unique perspective which in turn makes him feel safe because it's similar to his own, while Sheldon offers her social stability through him and his friends - his stability and her flexibility (I know they're not really antonyms but humor me. Lol.)  work great together.

At the same time they can connect, communicate and have fun with each other on a level that they never could with anyone else. Amy is the only one Sheldon considers to be truly on his level and from very early on in their relationship (season 5) he would turn to her for advice and would only listen to her even though the others basically told him the same thing.

I find it interesting that Amy started to slowly change and yet Sheldon didn't let her go, even though all the signs were there and he even wondered: "What happened to you?". It's always been obvious to me that he's a very vulnerable and an incredibly damaged individual who needed someone to show him the way in just the right...well, way. I think it was the Opening Night were P and B made fun of his knocking - he called them "Mean girls". I think that by now all the characters have made fun of his issues - Amy would never do that and I think he knows it.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I think Sheldon is a very misunderstood character. People who hate him (and that's fine if you do) probably won't care but I'm saying it anyway. Some of the things he does and says are bad (intentionaly or unintentionaly) but it's not like anyone ever tells him to go f*ck himself or try to help him change. Amy is the only one who has consistedly tried to help him when he's being unintentionaly mean or put him in his place when he's mean and he knows it. There are, of course, times when they were mean together (experiment on L and P) but this just adds to their charm and times when she herself should have told him to f*ck off but she's only human and in love.

But what about the rest? Why won't Leonard tell him to go have relations with himself (as another poster said about Raj, I think it was EvB) when Sheldon repeatedly insults him about his job, or Howard for that matter? You can't control other people's behaviour but you can control how you react to it. Shouldn't they defend themselves?

And honestly, I don't think that Sheldon would collaborate with Leonard if he really thought so little of him. It's not Sheldon's fault that Leonard is such a doormat and is so unhealthily attached to him.

Now, if you want you can look at it from the writers' POV but I'm not going to because I've already written a thesis and it doesn't really interest me that much.

Sheldon welcomed Amy into his world.  I believe that the changes we have seen in her might not have ever occurred if she hadn't become part of his world and met the eclectic group of people that, for better or for worse, are his friends.

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On 17.3.2016 at 11:57 PM, Einstein Von Brainstorm said:

Weird_guy_this.gif.0adab248603b7abc4fdf0

I loved Leonard before that episode, he was this sweet cute little geeky guy who wanted the girl but didn't think he was good enough!
Then they write this shit: "I love Pryia, I think we could get married one day BUT I totally want to bang this girl I've known for exactly 3 minutes!"
(I will swear in court that this was the actual line!) 

What the actual france was that about?! 

I never minded Pryia, as far as I was concerned Leonard and Penny were end game (and I was right! 10 points to Slytherin!) I just presumed that the Pryia/Leonard relationship was a filler to stop Lenny from getting together too soon/help Penny realise that she kinda wanted the geek after all and that it would fizzle out at some point. 

Having said that I actually want Leonard and Penny together, after the Comic book girl nonsense and the follow up boat girl crap I just don't love Leonard like I used to :( 

Oh and Raj go and have relations with himself! :angry: 

I don't remember her saying that she was in an exclusive relationship with either of them though? just that she was sleeping with them both, I could be wrong! 

I can´t remember neither, but it seemed to be serious enough for Penny, to feel the urge to tell them that she was having sex with both of them at the same time. Or she just wanted to be fair.

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