Debate Zone [Spoilers]Shipping Lanes: Season 9

[camelliayao]

2 hours ago, Judith said:

 

Poor aAmy must feel left out with the other three living together for such a long time now. I also want to know what other things only Penny can convince Sheldon to do. I hope it's babying bullcrap like the medicine - didn't Leonard say that he puts it in his butter but he spits it? I mean, I used to do that to my cat...I'm serious.

I was absolutely fine with the portrayal of their friendship up until now...Here's to hoping I'll continue to be.

See? That's what I've been feeling since 9x17...I know people love 9x17 but to me it was so horrible when Leonard argued with Amy about if she was qualified to comfort Sheldon and Penny just went straight to the bathroom and hugged Sheldon in a very intimate way right in front of Amy. And, Amy just let all those things happen. She didn't even say anything. She just stood quietly there.

Some people love S&P's friendship, I do too. I love them weirdly interacting, having conflicts and hilarious moments together. I liked it when Sheldon was bothered by the Amy&Wil argument and Penny offered him a drink. I liked it when Penny defended Sheldon and got his stuff back from Todd Zarnecki. That's brother and sister. That I can tell. Now? It's getting weird...

This episode is really not that bad considering "having Sheldon to take medicine" is a very motherly thing to do. So Penny is more like Sheldon's big sister/mother. But since brilliantfool said she there was one more line I'm still worried...If the line was something like "Penny understands Sheldon more" or "Sheldon trusts Penny more", not gonna lie, I'll be pissed off.

I really don't think they'll have a romantic S&P, because to me that'll ruin everything the show has created so far. But sometimes I can't help but wonder, is it that much of a deal for general audience who's with whom? I mean maybe they don't really care if the writers break up Lenny and Shamy and just let S&P, two of their most popular characters, be together. If out of their 15 million viewers, 14 million don't care about this, a romantic S&P might actually happen.

Edited March 23, 2016 by camelliayao

[2L344]

1 hour ago, Soopysue said:

Ok here's my take on what I've read so far .... I think April you have a point here, my first thought was it ties in with Amy / Meemaw, Amy saying how Sheldon is a grown up and she now is the one to know what he needs ( or words to that effect ) .

I think this story line ( BTW - I think with all this drama it's because its first to of sweeps - so they're pulling ALL fans into the drama - yes even the Shenny fans ....ugh ) will lead to Sheldon realising that he doesn't need Lenny - he actually is closer to Amy , he opened up to her about his hoarding etc etc - I think he will get what Amy was upset about ( another show of grown up Shelfon )  , him seeing Penny as a live in sister/ mother figure , and I think when he sees this he'll ask Lenny to move out - Shamy will be fine and Sheldon will thrive by living himself with Amy coming over often ( I also hope they get engaged at this point ) Lenny will then hit a bump when they live together totally as man and wife and it will cause tension ( maybe brought to light by Lenoards Dad ?) , I think they'll miss there dog / child substitute and his scheduled life & I think that'll be used as cliffhanger this year ! 

BTW - I've never been right in my predictions lol - so fingers crossed  

I like this! Yes our characters are all growing up (well except for Raj) with maybe Sheldon and Penny both resisting it on different levels whether they know it or not. A lot has happened this year for Sheldon--he went from maybe proposing marriage to Amy, to having his heart broken for the first time, to exploring what Amy truly means to him, to finally having sex for the first time. Penny has a new career (that she is unhappy about) and is finally in a marriage. Howardette are expecting their first child now. 

Howardette finally got rid of of Stuart's unwelcome roomie arrangement, and ironically they missed him after he left, and Lenny may feel the same way when they finally separate themselves from Sheldon when that comes . As for Sheldon, he is in a stronger relationship with Amy and his new career path away from string theory seems to be working out and even producing some success with his collaboration with Howard and Leonard. I think Sheldon on some level sees the day that Leonard moves out as marking the last of the milestones that move him into adulthood. Leonard has been his companion at 4A forever and that is a scary and hard thing to give up. And even if Sheldon is open to Amy replacing him, that arrangement would put an end to that bachelor-like and carefree way of living as he adjusts to Amy and her way of living. Just look at how Sheldon reacted to news of a Howard baby coming? Sheldon feared the change it would bring to their lifestyle.

Its a scary time for everyone, but a necessary time that I think the writers are trying to address in their own way.

[Maddie]

Sheldon does depend too much on Lenny as parental figures, but the ironic thing is that I think Lenny also depend a great deal on Sheldon. They kind of use him to not have to deal with issues in their relationship. Especially Penny. She goes to Sheldon when she needs to vent about Leonard and Sheldon always takes her side (the same would happen if Leonard went to Sheldon to vent about penny but we rarely see that).  

I think the writers are drawing a parallel between Sheldon and Penny. They are so different in many ways but one and that is that they drag their feet on "growing up" and becoming adults. They get each other in that respect and they support each other when everyone is else nudging them to grow up. As for Sheldon I don't think it's an issue with Shamy. I think Sheldon has no problem with Amy moving in, marrying Amy, having kids with Amy. But he has a huge issue with his "parents" leaving him because Lenny mean safety to him. Especially Penny because she enables and babies him much more than Leonard does. And way more than Amy does, which is a great thing that Amy doesn't baby him and treats him like an adult, go Amy! Because when people stop enabling him and make him do difficult things he steps up his game and shows astounding maturity and growth.

As for Penny, my guess is that she may have some resentment about quitting acting to do a job she doesn't like. I think a part of her might want to go back to the way things were before she took on so much responsibility. She loves Leonard, but may hold some resentment deep down towards him because while he's supported her acting career she knows he'd much rather have her in a paying job and paying the bills. This may not turn out to be true at all, but it would make sense with the characters and what we've seen so far. 

But in the end both Lenny and Shamy will be perfectly fine. I actually think it's really interesting seeing the writers address these issues of penny having regrets of quitting acting and Sheldon depending too much on Lenny. Because it will end up being more growth for both of the couples. 

[kerrycec03]

9 minutes ago, Maddie said:

Sheldon does depend too much on Lenny as parental figures, but the ironic thing is that I think Lenny also depend a great deal on Sheldon. They kind of use him to not have to deal with issues in their relationship. Especially Penny. She goes to Sheldon when she needs to vent about Leonard and Sheldon always takes her side (the same would happen if Leonard went to Sheldon to vent about penny but we rarely see that).  

I think the writers are drawing a parallel between Sheldon and Penny. They are so different in many ways but one and that is that they drag their feet on "growing up" and becoming adults. They get each other in that respect and they support each other when everyone is else nudging them to grow up. As for Sheldon I don't think it's an issue with Shamy. I think Sheldon has no problem with Amy moving in, marrying Amy, having kids with Amy. But he has a huge issue with his "parents" leaving him because Lenny mean safety to him. Especially Penny because she enables and babies him much more than Leonard does. And way more than Amy does, which is a great thing that Amy doesn't baby him and treats him like an adult, go Amy! Because when people stop enabling him and make him do difficult things he steps up his game and shows astounding maturity and growth.

As for Penny, my guess is that she may have some resentment about quitting acting to do a job she doesn't like. I think a part of her might want to go back to the way things were before she took on so much responsibility. She loves Leonard, but may hold some resentment deep down towards him because while he's supported her acting career she knows he'd much rather have her in a paying job and paying the bills. This may not turn out to be true at all, but it would make sense with the characters and what we've seen so far. 

But in the end both Lenny and Shamy will be perfectly fine. I actually think it's really interesting seeing the writers address these issues of penny having regrets of quitting acting and Sheldon depending too much on Lenny. Because it will end up being more growth for both of the couples. 

WOO HOO... My feelings EXACTLY!!

[camelliayao]

44 minutes ago, April said:

I do think the big difference between this and S7 is that now the writers are more committed to move forward with the characters. The show is now closer to its end than it was two years ago and they can't keep things stale for too long. There are some big character shake ups every now and then and I think S9 will be one of them.

Well since i believe the show will get renewed for at least one more season, I feel the opposite. Like the writers are doing all they can to slow things down...Honestly, Sheldon was THAT heart broken during their break up and he even wanted to propose, you'd think he and Amy are pretty close now, right?

But now everything just goes back to status quo (well to be fair they did make some progress physically). We are going back to the same old problem again. For some reason Sheldon's not close enough to Amy and can't let her in his world completely. And once again, Amy's left out. OMG this is so annoying I feel annoyed even typing out these words.

Same thing with Raj. Like he just goes back to his old jerk self again. On one hand he feels sorry for himself when he's alone. On the other hand he gets so smug when he's with someone and has no respect for women. Honestly I even felt things were getting a little intense between Kunal and the writers when they talked about Raj's "two girlfriends" on PaleyFest.

Edited March 23, 2016 by camelliayao

[mirs1]

6 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

Same thing with Raj. Like he just goes back to his old jerk self again. On one hand he feels sorry for himself when he's alone. On the other hand he gets so smug when he's with someone and has no respect for women. Honestly I even felt things were getting a little intense between Kunal and the writers when they talked about Raj's "two girlfriends" on PaleyFest.

Really? I got the impression he was bragging for the "achievement" of his character and was kind of happy for it, as saying: "Look at me, of all this four guys here I was the only one the writers actually chose for this kind of plot...", but it will last at most a couple of episodes, for me, then Emily will kick his a**...

[Judith]

46 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

See? That's what I've been feeling since 9x17...I know people love 9x17 but to me it was so horrible when Leonard argued with Amy about if she was qualified to comfort Sheldon and Penny just went straight to the bathroom and hugged Sheldon in a very intimate way right in front of Amy. And, Amy just let all those things happen. She didn't even say anything. She just stood quietly there.

Some people love S&P's friendship, I do too. I love them weirdly interacting, having conflicts and hilarious moments together. I liked it when Sheldon was bothered by the Amy&Wil argument and Penny offered him a drink. I liked it when Penny defended Sheldon and got his stuff back from Todd Zarnecki. That's brother and sister. That I can tell. Now? It's getting weird...

This episode is really not that bad considering "having Sheldon to take medicine" is a very motherly thing to do. So Penny is more like Sheldon's big sister/mother. But since brilliantfool said she there was one more line I'm still worried...If the line was something like "Penny understands Sheldon more" or "Sheldon trusts Penny more", not gonna lie, I'll be pissed off.

I really don't think they'll have a romantic S&P, because to me that'll ruin everything the show has created so far. But sometimes I can't help but wonder, is it that much of a deal for general audience who's with whom? I mean maybe they don't really care if the writers break up Lenny and Shamy and just let S&P, two of their most popular characters, be together. If out of their 15 million viewers, 14 million don't care about this, a romantic S&P might actually happen.

Well, I was talking in general about Leonard and Penny living with Sheldon for years now - in the same apartment or across the hall - which will naturally make Amy feel like the outsider. I see 9x17 in a different way so we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I agree though about the lines, depending on what they will be I might/might not be annoyed. We can only wait until the end of March.

I also don't think that S/P is likely to happen. Tbh, the thought does cross my mind sometimes byut that is just a case of my occasional paranoid "what if" fits, in reality I know that there's no evidence or foundation in the show for that to happen. Besides, from what I understand Shamy is overwhemingly loved by most people (and how could they not be?), so I'm not worried.

 

[April]

4 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

Well since i believe the show will get renewed for at least one more season, I feel the opposite. Like the writers are doing all they can to slow things down...Honestly, Sheldon was THAT heart broken during their break up and he even wanted to propose, you'd think he and Amy are pretty close now, right?

But now everything just goes back to status quo (well to be fair they did made some progress physically). We are going back to the same old problem again. For some reason Sheldon's not close enough to Amy and can't let her in his world completely. And once again, Amy's left out. OMG this is so annoying I feel annoyed even typing out these words.

Same thing with Raj. Like he just goes back to his old jerk self again. On one hand he feels sorry for himself when he's alone. On the other hand he gets so smug when he's with someone and has no respect for women. Honestly I even felt things were getting a little intense between Kunal and the writers when they talked about Raj's "two girlfriends" on PaleyFest.

I don't think they're slowing things down but the general pace of the show isn't exactly fast. They will deal with this one episode at a time and little plotlines are ever so slowly building up. It's no surprise that the actual issues that are brought up in this episode have been there for a long long time and we have been discussing them just as long and so intensely that of course to us all of this is old news and "good lord can the writers please hurry up!??" I get it. But at the danger of having to eat my own words a few weeks down the line I do think they're paving the way for some long overdue changes with this. And this episode was a bit of a reminder for the average Joe in the general audience who doesn't analyse everything to hell and back like we do.

[2L344]

33 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

Well since i believe the show will get renewed for at least one more season, I feel the opposite. Like the writers are doing all they can to slow things down...Honestly, Sheldon was THAT heart broken during their break up and he even wanted to propose, you'd think he and Amy are pretty close now, right?

But now everything just goes back to status quo (well to be fair they did made some progress physically). We are going back to the same old problem again. For some reason Sheldon's not close enough to Amy and can't let her in his world completely. And once again, Amy's left out. OMG this is so annoying I feel annoyed even typing out these words.

Same thing with Raj. Like he just goes back to his old jerk self again. On one hand he feels sorry for himself when he's alone. On the other hand he gets so smug when he's with someone and has no respect for women. Honestly I even felt things were getting a little intense between Kunal and the writers when they talked about Raj's "two girlfriends" on PaleyFest.

Howard said it best: "Because he's Raj, that's his thing. Beckham can bend it, Ralph can wreck it, Raj can blow it" lol...kidding aside, Raj is the one character that the writers seem content with keeping homeostasis. He hasn't had much growth since being able to speak to women without a booze. 

I sympathize with your Shamy comments, it can be frustrating for a lot of us who want to see Shamy take it to the next level after sex. When I first saw the sex episode I had hoped that the genie was out of the bottle finally, and that the relationship would be an overnight miracle and Shamy would be the Pasadena power couple. But that tag line that Sheldon says about not waiting for Amys next birthday made me pause. I had hoped for more. And not just sex, which to me is much less important than an improved level of emotional intimacy between the two. We still see a clueless Sheldon at times when Amy flirts with him, and I struggle with that and whether or not Sheldon is truly clueless or just being cheeky to avoid returning the sentiments. 

At this point I see the writers taking two steps forward and one step back with the relationship, and I'm okay with it. Maybe they ARE pacing themselves as they figure out how many seasons this show will see before it ends. As long as they continue the forward movement, and without a whole lot of drama between Shamy like we saw the first 9 episodes this season, I'm good with it. I'm confident they'll get where we want them to be in time. I trust the hard learned lessons they both learned in that awful break up will not be lost on them. 

Edited March 23, 2016 by 2L344

[serena_1995]

1 hour ago, camelliayao said:

See? That's what I've been feeling since 9x17...I know people love 9x17 but to me it was so horrible when Leonard argued with Amy about if she was qualified to comfort Sheldon and Penny just went straight to the bathroom and hugged Sheldon in a very intimate way right in front of Amy. And, Amy just let all those things happen. She didn't even say anything. She just stood quietly there.

Some people love S&P's friendship, I do too. I love them weirdly interacting, having conflicts and hilarious moments together. I liked it when Sheldon was bothered by the Amy&Wil argument and Penny offered him a drink. I liked it when Penny defended Sheldon and got his stuff back from Todd Zarnecki. That's brother and sister. That I can tell. Now? It's getting weird...

This episode is really not that bad considering "having Sheldon to take medicine" is a very motherly thing to do. So Penny is more like Sheldon's big sister/mother. But since brilliantfool said she there was one more line I'm still worried...If the line was something like "Penny understands Sheldon more" or "Sheldon trusts Penny more", not gonna lie, I'll be pissed off.

I really don't think they'll have a romantic S&P, because to me that'll ruin everything the show has created so far. But sometimes I can't help but wonder, is it that much of a deal for general audience who's with whom? I mean maybe they don't really care if the writers break up Lenny and Shamy and just let S&P, two of their most popular characters, be together. If out of their 15 million viewers, 14 million don't care about this, a romantic S&P might actually happen.

You are right , that Sheldon and Penny are the most popular ones, and casual viewers will not mind if they hooked up. But Sheldon and Amy are also liked by a lot of people. I love them !!

[phantagrae]

22 minutes ago, Cindi May said:

I don't think they will ever develop a romantic Sheldon and Penny especially if the shows ends with season 10. They don't have the time even if they want at this point, I think.  I don't know if the general public would care or not. In the early years a lot of people wanted to see Shenny happening. A lot of people were shipping Sheldon and Penny as potential lovers. And I saw various comments on twitter after the 200th statin' that S and P should be together. I think the general public would be really divided if the writers let them happen, but very very likely they won't because they don't seem to love taking risks in general.

They're never going to go the Romantic Shenny route--I think that all this talk about Sheldon and Penny being like brother/sister is more of a guarantee that they won't.  And especially now that L/P are married and S/A have had sex.

I think that every time Sheldon and Penny are nice to each other or have a real conversation, there are some people who are going to jump on the "They're going to put them together romantically!!!" bandwagon.

I think that the writers have spent several episodes over the years trying to underscore to that faction of the audience that they do have a brother/sister relationship.

IMO, it's not about the writers taking risks, but it's about the writers telling the story they want to tell--that L/P belong together and S/A belong together.

[stardustmelody]

1 hour ago, Serena_nyc1995 said:

You are right , that Sheldon and Penny are the most popular ones, and casual viewers will not mind if they hooked up. But Sheldon and Amy are also liked by a lot of people. I love them !!

I disagree with this.  They may be popular characters, but that does not mean that the casual viewer wants to see them hook up.   Based on panel questions, conventions, fan encounters with the cast, and with internet forums all over the place (yes this is one, but there are plenty of others that focus on the industry as a whole and you still see some specific comments about BBT on them, even casual fans are with the writers on the pairings they have created.  Fans have fallen in love with Amy as much as Penny and want to see Sheldon with Amy and Penny with Leonard.  I think  the writers have done a fairly good job at "selling" their couples to the casual viewer.   So yes, by now they would be just as upset as the more avid viewers would be if they suddenly did a "wife swap" kind of thing.   

 

Now one very encouraging part of this entire episode, because there was very little to be happy about in it other than hopefully seeing a big picture emerge that will address all of this.....but the one thing that encouraged me was when Sheldon wondered if Amy was at the door to come and apologize.  I know it sounds like not much, but to me it tells me that even while he is watching Game of Thrones and is with people who are "agreeing" with him, his mind is on Amy.  He is concerned about their "tiff" and wants to have her there with him. He doesn't like being at odds with her.  I found this very encouraging.  It is a Sheldon way to reveal that, but definitely pleases me that it was bugging him.   

My main concern is whether this will end up going anywhere or not.  They unveiled a lot of truth in this episode, but will the writers move forward and address the elephant in the room or not?  They often bring up things and let them sit for a few years.  That is what concerns me with this episode.   From a viewer perspective if feels as if being face slapped a few times and then they will likely walk away and shrug and go back to ignoring it.   That would be very disturbing.   If, however it does lead to a living arrangements discussion and change, and a resolution about these uncomfortable alliances such as the one with Sheldon and Penny (or Bernie and Raj), then great...deal with them and let us move forward.   I just don't know if they will though given their track record.

Edited March 23, 2016 by stardustmelody

[joyceraye]

Various random thoughts triggered by the discussion of the TR : The difference this time is that it's not Leonard and Amy having a third party discussion about the relationship between Sheldon and Penny, but that they're confronting them about it. Penny and Leonard have been referring to Sheldon as if he were a pet or a child for more years than Amy has known him. It's not unusual  for a wife to be a bit jealous of the way a sister-in-law or mother-in-law can wrap a husband round her little finger and for most of the time for the wife to accept it, but for her now and again, like Amy,to be disturbed by it. There's nothing out of the ordinary for friends under some circumstances to be as close as or closer than siblings and to take on some of the roles, like Lenny has . Flatsharing and housesharing that includes one or more childfree married couples, not always related, is not in every case thought of as the ideal but it's not rare. The Shelpennyard situation doesn't raise a lot of negativity for me.

 

[April]

25 minutes ago, joyceraye said:

The difference this time is that it's not Leonard and Amy having a third party discussion about the relationship between Sheldon and Penny, but that they're confronting them about it.

This is really what makes all the difference for me as well.

On one hand it's not Amy moping around here like she did before. brilliantfool said she didn't look upset during the episode so this kinda sounds like Amy brought a wrench and is not afraid to use it! Like, first Amy is intentionally winding Sheldon up with her flirty display of how well she can fake liking bureaucracy (I'm dying to see Sheldon's reaction! omg), she even admits to Leonard that she's just doing this because she's fed up with the closeness of Sheldon and Penny, and then proceeds to drop some truth bombs for Leonard as well. Likewise, Leonard who was already fed up with the living arrangements is also not a fan of the Sheldon/Penny team-up and eventually they call out Sheldon and Penny because all of that is kinda weird.

Of course I have to wait and see how this all plays out in the finished episode, etc. etc.... but this set up from the TR sounds quite promising.

[brilliantfool]

4 hours ago, Serena_nyc1995 said:

Thank you for providing the TR !!. And thanks for saying that the episode was not very heavy !! I also love Shenny and I don't want the writers to ruin their friendship due to insecurity issues from Amy or Leonard. Sheldon and Penny are very similar, despite being opposites-they are both used to getting their way, they are kinda selfish, immature and don't wanna grow up. Yeah, they are the only  weirdly close non-couple guy-girl friendship in the group.

I think Amy was a little insecure because she had no friends and most of her friends are Sheldon's friends, so she always felt left out. People say how hurt sheldon was when they broke up, but they forget that Amy was repeatedly  hurt and rejected by Sheldon for a long time before that. And if your bf is really close friends with another girl , you would be pissed off too, but its been 5-6 years , so I don't know why the writers want to show Amy being slightly insecure about that NOW ? There is nothing between S/P.The whole not liking the RA and Amy  being insecure of Sheldon/Penny- why are they recycling plots from 2 years ago ??

Bottom line- Like you said, I hope this is a fun episode and not as heavy as it seemed. Sheldon/Amy did not really fight on screen and they were ok by the end of the episode, they are fine. I think  the issue here is for Leonard and Penny/ moving out, not Shamy. I don't want any angst/ drama/ugliness  between Shamy . I'm so over it. I want the writers to let them be happy. And I hope for a lot of GOT references in this episode :-)

There were a few funny GOT references ! I just don't remember them word for word cause I don't watch it, so I didn't mention them : )

I just remember Sheldon asking Penny "do you need me to catch you up?" (smth like that) And she said I remembee this and this , and (2nd take) that there's no hot guys left lol. Also Sheldon is pissed at GOT books author that there are no more books for him to spoil to Leonard lol. I mean good old Shelnard )))

 

actually now now that I think about  it, it sounds a lot like spoiler alert segmentation ! RA, Leonard is pissed, Shenny/Lamy siding together, Sheldon spoiling all the books and shows to Leonard lol (he did spoil smth about Bran!)

and i agree with pretty much all you say about Shenny & shamy ! Except I wouldn't be jealous if my bf had a close girl friend... In fact id never wanna be with a guy who has just guy friends, I think , but we're all different!

hey , are you a fan of GG and Serena too? I love her !

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, April said:

This is really what makes all the difference for me as well.

On one hand it's not Amy moping around here like she did before. brilliantfool said she didn't look upset during the episode so this kinda sounds like Amy brought a wrench and is not afraid to use it! Like, first Amy is intentionally winding Sheldon up with her flirty display of how well she can fake liking bureaucracy (I'm dying to see Sheldon's reaction! omg), she even admits to Leonard that she's just doing this because she's fed up with the closeness of Sheldon and Penny, and then proceeds to drop some truth bombs for Leonard as well. Likewise, Leonard who was already fed up with the living arrangements is also not a fan of the Sheldon/Penny team-up and eventually they call out Sheldon and Penny because all of that is kinda weird.

Of course I have to wait and see how this all plays out in the finished episode, etc. etc.... but this set up from the TR sounds quite promising.

I agree. Of course I'll have to see the episode to see how it plays out, but for me the difference this time is that I don't get the feeling that Amy's concerns over Sheldon and Penny's closeness is not out of jealousy or intimidation.  I think Amy, being the wise woman she is, merely sees their relationship as an issue in that they enable each other to get out of difficult issues, the things that scare them aka "adulting." To me this has nothing to do with Shamy, or rather, extremely little. The only way it affects Shamy is that Penny babies Sheldon and that undoes what Amy tries to do -- which is to treat him like an adult. I think as Sheldon's girlfriend she wants to see him move on from his security blanket which is Lenny and to face his issues with depending on himself. I don't think she has an ulterior motive or is trying to be manipulative or wants Sheldon all to herself. I think she is just genuinely concerned with the dynamic between the two.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Maddie

[serena_1995]

7 hours ago, stardustmelody said:

I disagree with this.  They may be popular characters, but that does not mean that the casual viewer wants to see them hook up.   Based on panel questions, conventions, fan encounters with the cast, and with internet forums all over the place (yes this is one, but there are plenty of others that focus on the industry as a whole and you still see some specific comments about BBT on them, even casual fans are with the writers on the pairings they have created.  Fans have fallen in love with Amy as much as Penny and want to see Sheldon with Amy and Penny with Leonard.  I think  the writers have done a fairly good job at "selling" their couples to the casual viewer.   So yes, by now they would be just as upset as the more avid viewers would be if they suddenly did a "wife swap" kind of thing.   

 

Now one very encouraging part of this entire episode, because there was very little to be happy about in it other than hopefully seeing a big picture emerge that will address all of this.....but the one thing that encouraged me was when Sheldon wondered if Amy was at the door to come and apologize.  I know it sounds like not much, but to me it tells me that even while he is watching Game of Thrones and is with people who are "agreeing" with him, his mind is on Amy.  He is concerned about their "tiff" and wants to have her there with him. He doesn't like being at odds with her.  I found this very encouraging.  It is a Sheldon way to reveal that, but definitely pleases me that it was bugging him.   

My main concern is whether this will end up going anywhere or not.  They unveiled a lot of truth in this episode, but will the writers move forward and address the elephant in the room or not?  They often bring up things and let them sit for a few years.  That is what concerns me with this episode.   From a viewer perspective if feels as if being face slapped a few times and then they will likely walk away and shrug and go back to ignoring it.   That would be very disturbing.   If, however it does lead to a living arrangements discussion and change, and a resolution about these uncomfortable alliances such as the one with Sheldon and Penny (or Bernie and Raj), then great...deal with them and let us move forward.   I just don't know if they will though given their track record.

I hope you are right about casual viewers !! Shamy and Lenny are the way to go(though I am  partial to Shamy ) !! 

BTW there is nothing 'disturbing' about Sheldon and Penny IMO. I love their friendship. I think it is okay for a guy and girl to be close friends and care about each other, platonically. TBBT seems to think that girls can only be friends with girls(eg: girls night) and guys can only be close to guys. Which is weird because TBBT at its heart is about collision of worlds & embracing differences like Sheldon and Penny do. 

I think people just freak out whenever Shenny have a scene, for no reason. Leonard and Amy have somewhat low self esteem and feel insecure about a lot of stuff. Its in character.This episode is not as heavy as it seems.It sounds fun. We can't really say  until it airs.  This episode will air during the april/may sweeps so it will be related to finale. I think they will definitely change living arrangements and Leonard and Penny will move in together. And Sheldon and Amy will be engaged or move forward in some way by season 10. Most people love Shamy by this point, and i don't want any more drama/ugliness between Shamy. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by Serena_nyc1995

[littleknee]

10 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I agree. Of course I'll have to see the episode to see how it plays out, but for me the difference this time is that I don't get the feeling that Amy's concerns over Sheldon and Penny's closeness is not out of jealousy or intimidation.  I think Amy, being the wise woman she is, merely sees their relationship as an issue in that they enable each other to get out of difficult issues, the things that scare them aka "adulting." To me this has nothing to do with Shamy, or rather, extremely little. The only way it affects Shamy is that Penny babies Sheldon and that undoes what Amy tries to do -- which is to treat him like an adult. I think as Sheldon's girlfriend she wants to see him move on from his security blanket which is Lenny and to face his issues with depending on himself. I don't think she has an ulterior motive or is trying to be manipulative or wants Sheldon all to herself. I think she is just genuinely concerned with the dynamic between the two.

This is a great take on the episode. I sincerely hope it plays like this!

[April]

19 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I agree. Of course I'll have to see the episode to see how it plays out, but for me the difference this time is that I don't get the feeling that Amy's concerns over Sheldon and Penny's closeness is not out of jealousy or intimidation.  I think Amy, being the wise woman she is, merely sees their relationship as an issue in that they enable each other to get out of difficult issues, the things that scare them aka "adulting." To me this has nothing to do with Shamy, or rather, extremely little. The only way it affects Shamy is that Penny babies Sheldon and that undoes what Amy tries to do -- which is to treat him like an adult. I think as Sheldon's girlfriend she wants to see him move on from his security blanket which is Lenny and to face his issues with depending on himself. I don't think she has an ulterior motive or is trying to be manipulative or wants Sheldon all to himself. I think she is just genuinely concerned with the dynamic between the two.

Yes, this! I've been thinking about this dynamic ever since the Meemaw episode and how Amy called her out for treating Sheldon like a kid and that she wants him to be treated like an adult. And I think it's no accident that Meemaw and Lenny are kinda put in the same team (she makes Sheldon apologise to Leonard, she praises Penny's modern lifestyle, and Lenny are the ones that know about the nickname). So I was hoping Amy would eventually call out Lenny's babying of Sheldon - though in this case it looks like Leonard is already done with that nonsense and right now it's mostly Penny's issue. I'm really looking forward to see where this is going!

[Maddie]

31 minutes ago, April said:

Yes, this! I've been thinking about this dynamic ever since the Meemaw episode and how Amy called her out for treating Sheldon like a kid and that she wants him to be treated like an adult. And I think it's no accident that Meemaw and Lenny are kinda put in the same team (she makes Sheldon apologise to Leonard, she praises Penny's modern lifestyle, and Lenny are the ones that know about the nickname). So I was hoping Amy would eventually call out Lenny's babying of Sheldon - though in this case it looks like Leonard is already done with that nonsense and right now it's mostly Penny's issue. I'm really looking forward to see where this is going!

Me too! I think this is actually very interesting and promising. I know there are fans who are perplexed by this episode, but I actually am excited to see what they do with it, and I hope others can see that it  could mean really good things for both couples. It's like the writers are leaving no stone left unturned in the development in these characters. To me, their acknowledgement of the "weird closeness" between Sheldon and Penny means that they will soon try to resolve whatever dysfunction is between them and by extension in their respective relationships.

(Dysfunction is a harsh word to use lol, but what I mean is that they could be working to make both Lenny and Shamy the strongest they can be.)

[wowbagger]

10 hours ago, April said:

 

 

Shamy RA: We've known for a while that Amy isn't exactly a big fan of the RA. And as much as I've always enjoyed the idea of cute RA meetings I think we need to face the reality that those were more a bureaucratic hassle for Amy rather than something she enjoyed as such. It was a means to an end to get something out of this because at that point she was still dealing with a Sheldon that was fighting his own feelings at every turn - so she had to learn how to beat him at his own game. It makes a whole lot of sense in hindsight. I'm curious where this all leads with Sheldon's love for contracts on one hand and Amy not caring for that on the other. They don't seem to have an RA now so the question is will this come up again after this fight? If so, how will they handle it?

Amy's insecurity: Again, nothing new. She's mentioned it back in S7 but then they didn't do anything with that plot point. So I think Amy's jealousy was just smouldering bottled up somewhere until it now erupts in a burst of emotion. Again, nothing new, that's our Amy.

.....Have we known for a while that Amy isn't a big fan of the RA? The RA whose detail regarding financial instability and intelligent dog uprisings she touted? The RA that's 'more than hot. It's binding'?

Do we really think that one exchange in an episode that seems riddled with unearned drama and continuity goofs is adequate to undo everything else we have observed about the Shamy relationship?

And- even if we're willing to accept the veracity of this doubtless meticulously-drawn exchange- I must regretfully excuse myself from the cosy, all-embracing 'that's our Amy'. That is not my Amy. My Amy was a manic eccentric who threw around Chaucer quotations and whose boundaries-pushing, restless curiosity about life and experiences made her inappropriate, frequently disturbing but always individual. My Amy, even when she set out to manipulate her boyfriend, explained her plan of attack and rationale with such pitiless clarity that it was obvious that she was no longer manipulating her boyfriend, but-with justifiable pride- showing off her awesome intellect. My Amy was a creature of verbal dexterity and an absolute, resolute, unflinching earnestness about matters that would strike anybody (except her boyfriend) as ridiculous or tedious or both. My Amy thought she was The Shit. She was boundlessly arrogant and had no problems displaying the fact.

My Amy was not a passive-aggressive manipulator who pretended to participate in her boyfriend's concerns only to get what she wanted, and she wouldn't rub her deceit in his face in a staggeringly cruel burlesque of his own sincere interests and coping mechanisms. My Amy was not a seething pile of insecurities and jealousies who would-successfully!- plot to isolate her boyfriend from the people he loves and who love him. My Amy, in short, was not The Absolute Stonking Worst.

I'm sorry, I know this is harsh and I truly don't mean to single you out. But I have been increasingly irate at how little actual depth or richness is allowed to Amy this season, and this episode has had her lurch into some sort of discount telenovela villain, and I just can. Not.

[stardustmelody]

1 hour ago, Serena_nyc1995 said:

I hope you are right about casual viewers !! Shamy and Lenny are the way to go(though I am  partial to Shamy ) !! 

BTW there is nothing 'disturbing' about Sheldon and Penny IMO. I love their friendship. I think it is okay for a guy and girl to be close friends and care about each other, platonically. TBBT seems to think that girls can only be friends with girls(eg: girls night) and guys can only be close to guys. Which is weird because TBBT at its heart is about collision of worlds & embracing differences like Sheldon and Penny do. Nothing remotely romantic between them.

I think people just freak out whenever Shenny have a scene, for no reason. Leonard and Amy have somewhat low self esteem and feel insecure about a lot of stuff. Its in character.This episode is not as heavy as it seems.It sounds fun. We can't really say  until it airs.  This episode will air during the april/may sweeps so it will be related to finale. I think they will definitely change living arrangements and Leonard and Penny will move in together. And Sheldon and Amy will be engaged or move forward in some way by season 10. Most people love Shamy by this point, and i don't want any more drama/ugliness between Shamy. 

I disagree about the "no reason".   Leonard has heard nothing from Penny but snark. She hasn't said one nice or decent thing to him in a very long time. Amy witnesses this all the time and hears it from Penny all the time.   She knows that Penny has been unhappy and may not know the root reason, but with all the negative comments Penny makes about Leonard, it would be easy to jump to a conclusion that she may not be happily married after all.

Amy just gave up her virginity.  She is still very fragile in many ways because she still is very inexperienced.  She also is hoping for a future with him that he seems to keep avoiding talking about with her.   Likewise, as said above, she is trying to see both of them grow up together and yet she sees Leonard and Penny both treating Sheldon as a child many times.   

Shenny are NOT related and do not share any of the same blood.   So there are no familial boundaries here or restrictions that would normally exist for a brother/sister relationship.  Yes they are and can be friends. Yes they can show they care about each other.  That is not the issue.   The issue is that Lenny live with Sheldon; and Penny knows how to manipulate Sheldon and Leonard both.  Penny also knows how to get Sheldon right back into that submissive little boy who depends on his pseudo maternal older sister/pseudo Mommy and who confides in her.   He shares with her many things that should be shared with Amy.   So yes...many girls would not care for that kind of dynamic.  

Plus the willingness to show Penny affection that Amy has to fight for constantly is another reason for her to feel insecure.   Why should she feel secure when she went to a lot of trouble to arrange a beautiful party for Sheldon, gave him a lovely toast and yet who gets the affection during the party?  Penny, not her.   She stands by watching the man she loves give a huge hug to another woman who treats him like a child most of the time.  And earlier that same evening Amy made it clear she wanted to be the one to comfort Sheldon but Penny basically pushed Amy out of the way and took over and stayed in the bathroom for a period of time until Sheldon was willing to come back out.   Of course she feels insecure    Amy should be the one doing those things and comforting him in those situations.   So there are plenty of reasons why a woman would feel insecure and would question their friendship boundaries.   

I agree that Penny and Sheldon neither one have shown an ounce of interest in each other sexually, but in all honesty, sexual feelings can become an outgrowth of a close relationship like they have.  You see it time and time again in real life and often leads to great marriages.  

Amy is still very inexperienced and of course insecure still.  Sheldon has not shown any sign of wanting her again physically, not even kissed her since they had sex.   That does a number on a person's security, no matter how hard they try and reason their way that it is okay.   What she sees instead is a relationship that has a lot of closeness that she yearns for and that another woman gets affection that she desperately yearns for from the man that claims to love her.  I think Amy would love to see Sheldon devote attention to her for a change.  If he had shown her affection and they had continued having sex, then perhaps Amy would not be bothered at all by Sheldon and Penny's friendship.  But put yourself in her shoes and it suddenly becomes clear why she would question this and why some audience members relate to what she must be feeling.

42 minutes ago, Maddie said:

Me too! I think this is actually very interesting and promising. I know there are fans who are perplexed by this episode, but I actually am excited to see what they do with it, and I hope others can see that it  could mean really good things for both couples. It's like the writers are leaving no stone left unturned in the development in these characters. To me, their acknowledgement of the "weird closeness" between Sheldon and Penny means that they will soon try to resolve whatever dysfunction is between them and by extension in their respective relationships.

(Dysfunction is a harsh word to use lol, but what I mean is that they could be working to make both Lenny and Shamy the strongest they can be.)

I hope you are right and that this is leading to great things. While I can definitely see it being possible to lead to wonderful things and stronger couples in the end, I am not confident the writers are willing to risk that yet.  They have shown time and again that they toss things out there and we think, oh they finally are going to address this thing that we have been waiting be dealt with (such as the entire break-up story), yet we come back from a whole first half of a season, for example, hoping to see an improved Sheldon after the break-up and while he has managed to show a bit nicer side to most people, we still see Amy struggle to get any affection from the guy.   So then it makes me wonder what the heck we suffered through an entire break=up story for if he really hasn't learned to treasure Amy more and show her through actions?   I feel that way about this story. It has so much promise but will we really see it realized?  Time will tell and I hope you are right about it and that we will see great things as a result.  I am just not that confident yet.

Edited March 23, 2016 by stardustmelody

[shamyyellow]

1 hour ago, April said:

Yes, this! I've been thinking about this dynamic ever since the Meemaw episode and how Amy called her out for treating Sheldon like a kid and that she wants him to be treated like an adult. And I think it's no accident that Meemaw and Lenny are kinda put in the same team (she makes Sheldon apologise to Leonard, she praises Penny's modern lifestyle, and Lenny are the ones that know about the nickname). So I was hoping Amy would eventually call out Lenny's babying of Sheldon - though in this case it looks like Leonard is already done with that nonsense and right now it's mostly Penny's issue. I'm really looking forward to see where this is going!

This conversation reminds me of what many saw in Penny's treatment of Sheldon in the 200th episode. Once again, an episode that struck a nerve with many by underlining the core problem. Sheldon ran away from the party and Penny's way of helping him out was to say he could stay there all night and she would keep him company. This kind of unhelpful direction can be traced back to S6 when living arrangements were brought up and Penny backed Sheldon's apprehension to move in with Amy because she didn't want to live with Leonard. The same thing can be said for earlier this season when Lenny were going to take that step and Sheldon roped Penny into saying they wouldn't move out until he was ready... right before comparing him to a dog.

The very behavior that makes some of us angry only exists because of the current living situation. Amy is jealous of Penny because, like many have already said, Penny is living in 4A and Amy isn't. Penny is only living there because she coddles Sheldon and she only does that because of issues in her own life/relationship that she needs to work out. The solution is to deal with the living situation and that is really the only long-standing issue they have yet to overcome. Lenny are married, Raj has 2 girlfriends, Shamy had coitus, Bernie is pregnant... the only thing left is the 4A/4B debacle that has been a source of contention since S6.

Here's hoping that this finale and leading up to it will finally address this issue once and for all because the possibilities are endless once they do.

[camelliayao]

51 minutes ago, stardustmelody said:

I disagree about the "no reason".   Leonard has heard nothing from Penny but snark. She hasn't said one nice or decent thing to him in a very long time. Amy witnesses this all the time and hears it from Penny all the time.   She knows that Penny has been unhappy and may not know the root reason, but with all the negative comments Penny makes about Leonard, it would be easy to jump to a conclusion that she may not be happily married after all.

Amy just gave up her virginity.  She is still very fragile in many ways because she still is very inexperienced.  She also is hoping for a future with him that he seems to keep avoiding talking about with her.   Likewise, as said above, she is trying to see both of them grow up together and yet she sees Leonard and Penny both treating Sheldon as a child many times.   

Shenny are NOT related and do not share any of the same blood.   So there are no familial boundaries here or restrictions that would normally exist for a brother/sister relationship.  Yes they are and can be friends. Yes they can show they care about each other.  That is not the issue.   The issue is that Lenny live with Sheldon; and Penny knows how to manipulate Sheldon and Leonard both.  Penny also knows how to get Sheldon right back into that submissive little boy who depends on his pseudo maternal older sister/pseudo Mommy and who confides in her.   He shares with her many things that should be shared with Amy.   So yes...many girls would not care for that kind of dynamic.  

Plus the willingness to show Penny affection that Amy has to fight for constantly is another reason for her to feel insecure.   Why should she feel secure when she went to a lot of trouble to arrange a beautiful party for Sheldon, gave him a lovely toast and yet who gets the affection during the party?  Penny, not her.   She stands by watching the man she loves give a huge hug to another woman who treats him like a child most of the time.  And earlier that same evening Amy made it clear she wanted to be the one to comfort Sheldon but Penny basically pushed Amy out of the way and took over and stayed in the bathroom for a period of time until Sheldon was willing to come back out.   Of course she feels insecure    Amy should be the one doing those things and comforting him in those situations.   So there are plenty of reasons why a woman would feel insecure and would question their friendship boundaries.   

I agree that Penny and Sheldon neither one have shown an ounce of interest in each other sexually, but in all honesty, sexual feelings can become an outgrowth of a close relationship like they have.  You see it time and time again in real life and often leads to great marriages.  

Amy is still very inexperienced and of course insecure still.  Sheldon has not shown any sign of wanting her again physically, not even kissed her since they had sex.   That does a number on a person's security, no matter how hard they try and reason their way that it is okay.   What she sees instead is a relationship that has a lot of closeness that she yearns for and that another woman gets affection that she desperately yearns for from the man that claims to love her.  I think Amy would love to see Sheldon devote attention to her for a change.  If he had shown her affection and they had continued having sex, then perhaps Amy would not be bothered at all by Sheldon and Penny's friendship.  But put yourself in her shoes and it suddenly becomes clear why she would question this and why some audience members relate to what she must be feeling.

I hope you are right and that this is leading to great things. While I can definitely see it being possible to lead to wonderful things and stronger couples in the end, I am not confident the writers are willing to risk that yet.  They have shown time and again that they toss things out there and we think, oh they finally are going to address this thing that we have been waiting be dealt with (such as the entire break-up story), yet we come back from a whole first half of a season, for example, hoping to see an improved Sheldon after the break-up and while he has managed to show a bit nicer side to most people, we still see Amy struggle to get any affection from the guy.   So then it makes me wonder what the heck we suffered through an entire break=up story for if he really hasn't learned to treasure Amy more and show her through actions?   I feel that way about this story. It has so much promise but will we really see it realized?  Time will tell and I hope you are right about it and that we will see great things as a result.  I am just not that confident yet.

I agree with you mostly. I think it's totally normal for Amy to feel insecure. I mean imagine if you have a boyfriend like Sheldon, wouldn't you feel insecure?

But the bold part, well I think up to now, Sheldon rarely shows any affection towards Penny. Ture Sheldon doesn't show affection towards Amy very often either, but at least when he does, it's loud and clear. Towards Penny? I'm having a hard time thinking of any.

Even in this episode, Amy was jealous not because Sheldon likes Penny or anything, but because Penny can make Sheldon do things, like taking medicine. To me it's more like a mother-son relationship between S&P.

However, I do believe Penny likes Sheldon more and more these days. Yes, she likes him in a way a sister likes a brother. But it's just weird that she could barely spare any affection towards her own husband but when it comes to Sheldon, love everywhere.

I think the reason Amy gets jealous is that she can't get real boyfriend&girlfriend relationship from Sheldon, at least not very often (Yes they slept together once. Then there's nothing. I'm seriously gonna throw up if the writers use this to make another joke). So she wants the next best thing, which is to take care of Sheldon and to be close with Sheldon. But she can't even get that because there's Leonard and there's Penny. Leonard even said she was not qualified to comfort Sheldon just a few episode ago.

Poor Amy. She has every reason to feel insecure. And the key is not Penny or Leonard; it's Sheldon. Sheldon needs to treat her more like a partner. Amy's not some crazy girl who doesn't want her boyfriend to have friends, let alone the friends of his boyfriend are also her friends. She just wants herself to be special to Sheldon.

And I really, really, really hope this storyline will go somewhere. Otherwise it's cruel to expose the wound and just leave it there. At least in the past we can pretend Amy is this happy-dippy girl who's blindly in love and fine with everything. Now that she has addressed her concerns, it's just mean to ignore her...

But on the other hand, Amy has always been doormat, so why treat her differently now...

Edited March 23, 2016 by camelliayao

[Lionne]

1 hour ago, wowbagger said:

.....Have we known for a while that Amy isn't a big fan of the RA? The RA whose detail regarding financial instability and intelligent dog uprisings she touted? The RA that's 'more than hot. It's binding'?

Do we really think that one exchange in an episode that seems riddled with unearned drama and continuity goofs is adequate to undo everything else we have observed about the Shamy relationship?

And- even if we're willing to accept the veracity of this doubtless meticulously-drawn exchange- I must regretfully excuse myself from the cosy, all-embracing 'that's our Amy'. That is not my Amy. My Amy was a manic eccentric who threw around Chaucer quotations and whose boundaries-pushing, restless curiosity about life and experiences made her inappropriate, frequently disturbing but always individual. My Amy, even when she set out to manipulate her boyfriend, explained her plan of attack and rationale with such pitiless clarity that it was obvious that she was no longer manipulating her boyfriend, but-with justifiable pride- showing off her awesome intellect. My Amy was a creature of verbal dexterity and an absolute, resolute, unflinching earnestness about matters that would strike anybody (except her boyfriend) as ridiculous or tedious or both. My Amy thought she was The Shit. She was boundlessly arrogant and had no problems displaying the fact.

My Amy was not a passive-aggressive manipulator who pretended to participate in her boyfriend's concerns only to get what she wanted, and she wouldn't rub her deceit in his face in a staggeringly cruel burlesque of his own sincere interests and coping mechanisms. My Amy was not a seething pile of insecurities and jealousies who would-successfully!- plot to isolate her boyfriend from the people he loves and who love him. My Amy, in short, was not The Absolute Stonking Worst.

I'm sorry, I know this is harsh and I truly don't mean to single you out. But I have been increasingly irate at how little actual depth or richness is allowed to Amy this season, and this episode has had her lurch into some sort of discount telenovela villain, and I just can. Not.

Agree - this was also my Amy, and I'm finally forced to concede that she is dead. And her replacement is the literal worst, and the way she tries to drive wedges between her boyfriend and his best friends is the type of isolating behavior of the abuser. 

It did not have to be this way. I, too, thought it was past time for Amy to want to get Lenny and their pseudo-helicopter parenting of Sheldon over and done with. But the Amy I used to know would have dropped this on the big 3 bluntly and apologetically and crucified them with year's worth of examples to back up her point and get them to face reality. Not this backstabbing bullshit stemming from insecurities.