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[Spoilers]Shipping Lanes: Season 9


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1 hour ago, wowbagger said:

.....Have we known for a while that Amy isn't a big fan of the RA? The RA whose detail regarding financial instability and intelligent dog uprisings she touted? The RA that's 'more than hot. It's binding'?

Do we really think that one exchange in an episode that seems riddled with unearned drama and continuity goofs is adequate to undo everything else we have observed about the Shamy relationship?

And- even if we're willing to accept the veracity of this doubtless meticulously-drawn exchange- I must regretfully excuse myself from the cosy, all-embracing 'that's our Amy'. That is not my Amy. My Amy was a manic eccentric who threw around Chaucer quotations and whose boundaries-pushing, restless curiosity about life and experiences made her inappropriate, frequently disturbing but always individual. My Amy, even when she set out to manipulate her boyfriend, explained her plan of attack and rationale with such pitiless clarity that it was obvious that she was no longer manipulating her boyfriend, but-with justifiable pride- showing off her awesome intellect. My Amy was a creature of verbal dexterity and an absolute, resolute, unflinching earnestness about matters that would strike anybody (except her boyfriend) as ridiculous or tedious or both. My Amy thought she was The Shit. She was boundlessly arrogant and had no problems displaying the fact.

My Amy was not a passive-aggressive manipulator who pretended to participate in her boyfriend's concerns only to get what she wanted, and she wouldn't rub her deceit in his face in a staggeringly cruel burlesque of his own sincere interests and coping mechanisms. My Amy was not a seething pile of insecurities and jealousies who would-successfully!- plot to isolate her boyfriend from the people he loves and who love him. My Amy, in short, was not The Absolute Stonking Worst.

I'm sorry, I know this is harsh and I truly don't mean to single you out. But I have been increasingly irate at how little actual depth or richness is allowed to Amy this season, and this episode has had her lurch into some sort of discount telenovela villain, and I just can. Not.

The creators of this show seem to have this weird concept of love that once people become couples, they can't be best friends or soul mates anymore. Even though Amy was portrayed as Sheldon's true match, once she becomes his girlfriend, all of sudden she's annoying and manipulating and inconsiderate.

Also, people on the show are allowed to show affection towards anyone excpet for their partners. So Penny can be all sweet and caring with Sheldon. She wanted to hug him when he told stories about his miserable childhood; she prepared for days for his birthday party. But when it comes to her husband, those horrible things that happened to Leonard? Well he probably brought it on himself. And Leonard's birthday? Meh who has time to remember that.

Seriously, what is the problem with the writers!? They're ruining Amy AND Penny. And I think they have no problem ruining Bernie too if not for the fact that she's pregant. Are all romantic relationships gonna fail in the writers eyes? Are all couples be together only for the sake of having sex and people can only have emotional bonds with those who they don't sleep with?

I'm having a really hard time understanding why the writers do any of these things. It makes no sense...

Edited by camelliayao

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Ok talking about the progress they've made since the break up, I can think of two, maybe three.

First, they slept together, once. And the writers managed to mention it and make jokes about it in literally every episode afterwards. Second, Sheldon told Amy about his secret. Third, Sheldon is now able to skype with Amy in his bedroom.

But we also got a lot of moving backwards. Like Amy being questioned by Leonard not qualified enough to comfort Sheldon ? Amy getting jealous of S&P's relationship still? Amy considering herself as Sheldon's "best shot" and saying she had to put up with Sheldon so much? Amy faking to like RA in the past? Amy manipulating Sheldon more and more to the point they mention the word "manipulate" two episodes in a row? Sheldon showing zero interest in Amy physically after coitus (maybe even before and during coitus) and Amy being more desperate than ever?

Edited by camelliayao

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6 minutes ago, shamyyellow said:

I think it's hard to hear about this episode when the last few that we've seen weren't favorable for Shamy. The two between this and the last one aired are wonderful and will definitely restore some balance in the way things are perceived around here. 

Since Earworm, what were the unfavorable episodes for Shamy?

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7 hours ago, Judith said:

.

 

I also don't think that S/P is likely to happen. Tbh, the thought does cross my mind sometimes byut that is just a case of my occasional paranoid "what if" fits, in reality I know that there's no evidence or foundation in the show for that to happen. Besides, from what I understand Shamy is overwhemingly loved by most people (and how could they not be?), so I'm not worried.

 

 Completely agree. It's hard not to occasionally wonder "what if" and the writers do seem to enjoy playing their characters off of one another, but at the end of the day they're too fundamentally different to seriously consider a romantic relationship with one another. 

For one thing, Penny is a very physical and sexual person. She would need a partner that expresses their affection similarly and we all know that Sheldon views physicality as less of a necessity in a romantic relationship than others. Also Sheldon has made it very clear that he values the mind above all things, even this more mature and human version of Sheldon that has evolved over the past season or so. Penny's character is by no means dumb, but she's no neurobiologist either. He'd need an intellectual equal to hold his interest in a non platonic relationship.

Their relationship is 100 percent crafted to be a maternal or sisterly one. From taking him to Disneyland when she and Leonard were fighting (can't remember the episode, but they framed it like she and Leonard were sharing custody of him) to giving him an activity book to complete in the car after Raj and Lucy broke up, she takes care of him like a mom would. I sincerely doubt the writers would spend this long driving that point home only to create what would likely be viewed as an incestuous relationship by putting them together for any length of time. 

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2 hours ago, camelliayao said:

However, I do believe Penny likes Sheldon more and more these days. Yes, she likes him in a way a sister likes a brother. But it's just weird that she could barely spare any affection towards her own husband but when it comes to Sheldon, love everywhere. 

Which, I think is exactly the plot set up that a few others have been pointing out since the taping. Penny is at a major crossroads in that she's finding herself settled into a grown up life with a wonderful man and a well paying, stable job - but the commitment-phobe in her is panicking. 

Letting Sheldon continue to call all of the shots and coddling him because he's "too fragile" for her to put her foot down and insist that she and her husband live alone is her way of hiding from reality. It's almost as if she and Leonard still maintaining two residences gives her a safety net. Right now, to Penny, Sheldon is the person that is allowing her to stay stagnant while Leonard is the epitome of the future that she's terrified to embrace.

I think Amy and Leonard are starting to see that - and neither of them are going to put up with it for much longer. Shamy will come out the other end alright, they've already seen life without one another and seem pretty damn committed not to make the other feel taken for granted again. Sheldon especially seems to have gained a lot of trust in Amy's opinions and observations. Lenny, well, they may be in for a harder time...

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7 hours ago, vonmar said:

I cannot believe what I am reading here....what is going on?

From Earworm going forward we have seen (and will see) many lovely moments between them, drunk texting, secret sharing, flirting on a couch in a cabin, Fun with Flags, etc.

But no, a new episode tapes and Amy is suddenly a doormat, an abuser, insecure, desperate, fragile, threatened and whatever else. This is not what I have seen or read.  And that is not what I took from the latest taping information.  

To me AFF is full on AFF in this episode, she manipulated Sheldon into thinking that she enjoyed The Relationship Agreement, she manipulated Leonard into thinking she was on his side, she turned the tables on all of the players in an episode that was a loaded story line about how friends and lovers sometimes use manipulation for their own purposes. 

No offense to any of you....But I personally won't let two or three lines from AFF from the most recent taping let me forget how far they have come since the break-up.

 

 

 

vonmar, I know this isn't necessarily directed at me, but just to clarify: I, personally, come by my disgruntlement honestly. I've been bellyaching about the writing of the show in general and Amy in particular since- well, Season Six, but I've been operating at a fairly advanced Bile Index since- ooo, about the S8 finale. There have been occasional breaks for things like the Thanksgiving episode or the Coitus episode, but every single episode apart from that has given me something to rant- or at least snark- about.

And honestly, for every single one of the moments you've quoted, I could come up with a countervailing list where Amy has been dismissive of Sheldon's interests, has cadged for sympathy for all she endures, or has fished for intimacy from an oblivious or unresponsive Sheldon. And even the moments that you've quoted were all in evidence in Season Eight before the break. In my view, the Shamy relationship was better in Season Eight, even. And why? Simply because it really seemed as though the two were on the same wavelength, wanting the same things, and that both Sheldon and Amy retained a flavour of the intellect, eccentricity and verve that made me ship them in the first place. I could not care less if Sheldon and Amy are engaging in vaguely pleasant activities together, looking down the camera and assuring me that the breakup made them stronger than ever (BUCKET! WHERE IS THAT BUCKET!) if nothing about their present personalities gives me an inkling of why this is the case.

Why is Amy with Sheldon? She doesn't seem to particularly enter into his concerns or even particularly enjoy the same things (Fun with Flags was so quickly thrown over to support Ugh, Raj), and she as sure as shit doesn't seem to volunteer cerebral, quirky things for them to do. All the brainy quirk comes from Sheldon nowadays. The most we can hope for is for Amy to appreciate Sheldon's grammar mistakes (which is very nice, don't get me wrong). Amy's awfully quick to remind people of all she puts up with, seems unappreciative of the fundamental issues that Sheldon had to wrestle with to give her the physical intimacy that she so eagerly and unquestioningly accepted (more on that in a moment), and she seems utterly incapable of articulating and communicating her concerns and desires. It's all desperate hints and manipulation nowadays. But sure, sure, there's the sex. She liked the sex. We know she liked the sex. She'd like to have more sex with Sheldon. And there's nothing wrong with that, nothing at all. But the show has steadily eroded the intellect, the verbal flair and the personhood that convinced me that these two were perfect together. All that showing has been abandoned in favour of telling me, earnestly, that The Breakup Was Good For Them and that They Are Stronger Than Ever. So, okay, Sheldon loves Amy. He loves her so much he rocked her world on her birthday. But nothing- nothing- since then has suggested that he desires her. The body language of the S8 finale- even the passionate kisses of the reconciliation- have vanished like breath off a windshield. So Amy keeps hinting and hoping and manoeuvreing for a crumb of physical affection from a man who loves her, but doesn't seem to desire her. The one thing that the show has been careful to tell us that Amy got out of the breakup was sex. And what a poisoned chalice that has been.

And why is Sheldon with Amy? The woman with whom he had such a torrid affair of the mind has been replaced by a whiny, passive aggressive replicant who kinda looks the same but doesn't speak the same way, share the same interests or worldview in any fundamental way, who insists on the immutable rightness of her fundamental desires without ever acknowledging his right to his own. Amy was content to wait for Sheldon i.e. she only ever budged on when a thing would happen, not whether it would happen or should happen. And- while Amy and Sheldon may have 'birthed' Fun with Flags together- Sheldon sure as hell hasn't seemed to enter into any of Amy's own interests in any meaningful way. But, sure, sure, Sheldon loves her. And the breakup made their love stronger. Strong enough for him to go back to manifesting zero sexual desire for her, and for him to treat her as some sort of unlicensed therapist- sharing trauma being something utterly unprecedented for Sheldon Lee Cooper. Right. One of the most inappropriately open characters in fiction is suddenly closed-off and reticent for the purposes of instructing us on his Emotional Breakthrough.

Ultimately, if the show had broken up Sheldon and Amy but they had retained their personhood and quirk, I'd have been happier than this cloying lukewarm swamp of interactions that I keep being told by the show are positive, even though all I see are two people speaking different languages and operating at cross purposes. Two people who used to be visibly, effortlessly in sync. Along with a show that seems dedicated to writing choices that retroactively taint even cherished moments: Sheldon's sexual indifference now seriously calling into question, for me, whether he really did just give Amy the gift of his genitals; Amy's 'faking it' making me question whether the two were ever really two wonkish peas in a pod.

Yes, they have come a long way since the breakup. All the way back to Season Seven, apparently.

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9 hours ago, DDaisy said:

Which, I think is exactly the plot set up that a few others have been pointing out since the taping. Penny is at a major crossroads in that she's finding herself settled into a grown up life with a wonderful man and a well paying, stable job - but the commitment-phobe in her is panicking. 

Letting Sheldon continue to call all of the shots and coddling him because he's "too fragile" for her to put her foot down and insist that she and her husband live alone is her way of hiding from reality. It's almost as if she and Leonard still maintaining two residences gives her a safety net. Right now, to Penny, Sheldon is the person that is allowing her to stay stagnant while Leonard is the epitome of the future that she's terrified to embrace.

I think Amy and Leonard are starting to see that - and neither of them are going to put up with it for much longer. Shamy will come out the other end alright, they've already seen life without one another and seem pretty damn committed not to make the other feel taken for granted again. Sheldon especially seems to have gained a lot of trust in Amy's opinions and observations. Lenny, well, they may be in for a harder time...

^^^^This also!!  This is exactly what I think is going on with Penny and it's so sad that some on here, especially the Lennies, can't see it.  I think she's medaphorically "hiding" behind Sheldon and it's not Leonard she's hiding from but the reality of her life and right now she's having a struggle within herself.  On one hand, she's looking back at her old life and seeig it through rose colored glasses and then there's the "grown up" side that's fighting to get through but she's having to fight the "care free commitment phobe" that still has one breath left.  

Once Sheldon steps away and more towards Amy to the point that Penny can no longer hide behind him, she's going to be faced with reality once and for all and is going to be faced with a choice to make.  

Either take Leonard's hand and embrace her life completely or bolt.  And in the end, I think she's going to take a deep breath and do the former.

One good thing about her mother role with Sheldon....we're getting a preview of what a great mom she WILL be when those smart & beautiful babies do come along.

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I too don't like how some people think Amy has 'manipulated' Sheldon in the past and present. Most of her prodding has been done for Sheldon's own good, enjoyment of things he would have shunned needlessly, and to gently try to open his eyes. True, a lot of it benefited Amy, but how can you be in a relationship where only one person is benefiting ALL of the time without leveling the playing field? It isn't fair. As far as 'manipulatng' him, Amy isn't the only one. His own mother and grandmother do it on a regular basis and probably have since he was a child. We don't call them manipulators. Because we know they love him. Mary will do and say whatever it takes to lead her Shelly back on the straight and narrow, and has done several times. I don't see anyone accusing her of any wrongdoing. Why is it so bad for Amy to do so, as a way of coping with the GREAT (lets face it) challenge of being in love with a man such as Sheldon Cooper?

IMO, in Sheldon's life on the show, every woman has a different 'caretaking' role with him.  Bernadette tells him like it is, sometimes with bluntness so fearful that he is actually frightened. Penny babies him, and I think it's growing worse as the seasons progress; so much so that she sides with Sheldon on matters that she should be siding with her husband. And Amy is in the middle; trying to balance understanding his quirks and not grow frustrated with constantly wanting more affection, more intimacy, more level ground...yet being considerate to his needs and feelings. You can't blame the woman that after five  years of waiting for the sign the relationship was moving along, she'd doubted the bond they shared was anything more than a deep admiration and familiarity on Sheldon's part.

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24 minutes ago, Kathy2611 said:

^^^^This also!!  This is exactly what I think is going on with Penny and it's so sad that some on here, especially the Lennies, can't see it.  I think she's medaphorically "hiding" behind Sheldon and it's not Leonard she's hiding from but the reality of her life and right now she's having a struggle within herself.  On one hand, she's looking back at her old life and seeig it through rose colored glasses and then there's the "grown up" side that's fighting to get through but she's having to fight the "care free commitment phobe" that still has one breath left.  

Once Sheldon steps away and more towards Amy to the point that Penny can no longer hide behind him, she's going to be faced with reality once and for all and is going to be faced with a choice to make.  

Either take Leonard's hand and embrace her life completely or bolt.  And in the end, I think she's going to take a deep breath and do the former.

One good thing about her mother role with Sheldon....we're getting a preview of what a great mom she WILL be when those smart & beautiful babies do come along.

Um, hi guys. Thought I'd chime in here. I've said a few weeks ago that I think Penny's still afraid of losing Leonard and is still pushing him away. I don't see this emotionally abusive wife that others seem to see. In last week's TR we found out she's been staying at a job she loathes because she thought it was important to her husband - so that doesn't strike me as someone who doesn't love their partner. 

I don't remember who said it, but they said that because the characters finally said it out loud how weird it all is (Shenny), that's a good sign that things will change. Do I think the writers will crap on a character in order to get a joke out of it? Yes. Do I think it's so bad that we should basically all jump ship? No.

Edited by No Regrets

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19 minutes ago, luminous said:

The posting above is from the Shamy thread.

Yes, Penny has to make a choice. And the way up to that point is probably full of angst and drama, because the writers seem to like that. But I think in the end she will definitely choose Leonard. :shy:

There was a similar thing said on the discussion thread. I think though in many ways Leonard's has enabled Penny like he has enabled Sheldon to do what they want. It also doesn't help he is wishy washy on what he wants.

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6 minutes ago, luminous said:

The posting above is from the Shamy thread.

Yes, Penny has to make a choice. And the way up to that point is probably full of angst and drama, because the writers seem to like that. But I think in the end she will definitely choose Leonard. :shy:

The thing is this doesn't make sense, she never did this before, she would always go to Leonard with her big problems, so now she needs to hide behind Sheldon, I don't think so.  This is just someone trying to rationalize the change of writing Penny so they don't have to admit the show has turned into the Sheldon Show and the only reason Penny acts the way she does is the simple reason, everything revolves around Sheldon now.  There is no reason anymore than that and that is why you are seeing canon thrown out the window.

The characters Leonard and Penny are caught in the cyclonic flow around Sheldon.  Penny and Leonard have both had their unique relationship with Sheldon, so what you will see in the future is Sheldon sharing his precious time with each of them as the story permits.  Leonard and Penny alone together in the future will amount to crumbs to starving Lenny's just to appease us every so often.  It has been happening since Season 7 when we saw the lovefest of Shenny friendship while Leonard was gone.

i hate to sound like a downer but there is only so many times that this can be thrown in your face before you have to stop making excuses for the way our favorite couple are being treated.  Leonard and Penny have a chemistry that none of the other couples can equal, they are the Big Bang Theory, so is it any surprise they are being minimized to promote the Sheldon Show.

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1 hour ago, SRAM said:

The thing is this doesn't make sense, she never did this before, she would always go to Leonard with her big problems, so now she needs to hide behind Sheldon, I don't think so.  This is just someone trying to rationalize the change of writing Penny so they don't have to admit the show has turned into the Sheldon Show and the only reason Penny acts the way she does is the simple reason, everything revolves around Sheldon now.  There is no reason anymore than that and that is why you are seeing canon thrown out the window.

The characters Leonard and Penny are caught in the cyclonic flow around Sheldon.  Penny and Leonard have both had their unique relationship with Sheldon, so what you will see in the future is Sheldon sharing his precious time with each of them as the story permits.  Leonard and Penny alone together in the future will amount to crumbs to starving Lenny's just to appease us every so often.  It has been happening since Season 7 when we saw the lovefest of Shenny friendship while Leonard was gone.

i hate to sound like a downer but there is only so many times that this can be thrown in your face before you have to stop making excuses for the way our favorite couple are being treated.  Leonard and Penny have a chemistry that none of the other couples can equal, they are the Big Bang Theory, so is it any surprise they are being minimized to promote the Sheldon Show.

Sadly I have the strong tendency to agree with you, but...

o_0021.gif.0bf8fd337a4677e80953f437239e7

:icon_neutral:

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2 hours ago, veejay said:

Sadly I have the strong tendency to agree with you, but...

o_0021.gif.0bf8fd337a4677e80953f437239e7

:icon_neutral:

Wasn't Penny the one that gave in during that Episode too, because she felt sorry for the big baby?

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15 minutes ago, SRAM said:

Wasn't Penny the one that gave in during that Episode too, because she felt sorry for the big baby?

Yep, but that wasn’t my message here.  :shy:

34 minutes ago, luminous said:

Well, I have to admit, that I lost interest in drawing Lenny pictures at the moment because of the latest TR. :(

...hoping for better times. :paint:

So basically the main theme of the last taping EP is showing the gang decide to throw a viewing party for Game Of Thrones.

./> Leonard is a pathetic mess. Sheldon’s trying basically boss him around as usual.
./> Amy is jealous of Sheldon/Penny.
./> Penny’s mean to Leonard but pretty nice to Sheldon.
./> Sheldon is being constantly manipulated by both Penny and Amy.

Behold, Game of Thrones is all about manipulation!?
I guess this episode makes sense. :shy:
(No, I’m not meka2000!)

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5 hours ago, veejay said:

Yep, but that wasn’t my message here.  :shy:

So basically the main theme of the last taping EP is showing the gang decide to throw a viewing party for Game Of Thrones.

./> Leonard is a pathetic mess. Sheldon’s trying basically boss him around as usual.
./> Amy is jealous of Sheldon/Penny.
./> Penny’s mean to Leonard but pretty nice to Sheldon.
./> Sheldon is being constantly manipulated by both Penny and Amy.

Behold, Game of Thrones is all about manipulation!?
I guess this episode makes sense. :shy:
(No, I’m not meka2000!)

Btw, we all know Game of Thrones is a drama but TPTB would be vcry well served by watching Game of Thrones and learning how a show should be written. See? That  is quality writing!

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21 hours ago, wowbagger said:

 I've been bellyaching about the writing of the show in general and Amy in particular since- well, Season Six, but I've been operating at a fairly advanced Bile Index since- ooo, about the S8 finale. There have been occasional breaks for things like the Thanksgiving episode or the Coitus episode, but every single episode apart from that has given me something to rant- or at least snark- about.

In my view, the Shamy relationship was better in Season Eight, even. And why? Simply because it really seemed as though the two were on the same wavelength, wanting the same things, and that both Sheldon and Amy retained a flavour of the intellect, eccentricity and verve that made me ship them in the first place. 

Why is Amy with Sheldon? She doesn't seem to particularly enter into his concerns or even particularly enjoy the same things (Fun with Flags was so quickly thrown over to support Ugh, Raj), and she as sure as shit doesn't seem to volunteer cerebral, quirky things for them to do. All the brainy quirk comes from Sheldon nowadays. The most we can hope for is for Amy to appreciate Sheldon's grammar mistakes

I agree with you about lack cerebral stuff between Shamy. Any one else feel like Amy has become a put-upon stereotypical sitcom girlfriend ??  I love her, but  she has kinda lost her personality. I forget she is even a genius scientist. All she cares about is relationships. Thats it. There is nothing that makes her unique. If Sheldon had just met the Amy of today, he might not have fallen for her. He liked Amy because of her  quirks and he admired her mind. Its one thing to want to be social, but that does not mean you lose everything else. I love all the progess they made this season but that does not mean they can't retain some of their old charm as well. Now all she does is complain about Sheldon when he remotely does anything related to his geeky interests, when the whole point of Shamy was that Sheldon and Amy (unlike Lenny) were an intellectual quirky couple , who had a lot in common.

 Amy's role now is to make Sheldon a 'better person' and 'more normal'. Thats so cliche .Ughh. They used to genuinely enjoy each other's company in season 4/5, weirdly. I miss episodes like The Herb Garden Germination where Sheldon and Amy team up or when they played Counterfactuals, Now only Sheldon talks about any kind of intellectual stuff, when earlier it used to be both Amy and Sheldon.

I have a huge problem with the way the show writes women scientists in general. Just wearing glasses does not make anyone a geek.None of the girls talk about science or have any kind  of intelligent conversation. Its always some  relationship related stuff or gossip. They don't even share the guys' interests. If I watched a random episode, I would never have guessed Bernie or Amy were scientists. Unpopular opinion, but its true. On the bright side, I Ioved the  Howard, Sheldon and Leonard patent storyline and I hope they make something of the super fluid gyroscope !! 

Edited by Serena_nyc1995

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16 hours ago, SRAM said:

The thing is this doesn't make sense, she never did this before, she would always go to Leonard with her big problems, so now she needs to hide behind Sheldon, I don't think so.  This is just someone trying to rationalize the change of writing Penny so they don't have to admit the show has turned into the Sheldon Show and the only reason Penny acts the way she does is the simple reason, everything revolves around Sheldon now.  There is no reason anymore than that and that is why you are seeing canon thrown out the window.

The characters Leonard and Penny are caught in the cyclonic flow around Sheldon.  Penny and Leonard have both had their unique relationship with Sheldon, so what you will see in the future is Sheldon sharing his precious time with each of them as the story permits.  Leonard and Penny alone together in the future will amount to crumbs to starving Lenny's just to appease us every so often.  It has been happening since Season 7 when we saw the lovefest of Shenny friendship while Leonard was gone.

i hate to sound like a downer but there is only so many times that this can be thrown in your face before you have to stop making excuses for the way our favorite couple are being treated.  Leonard and Penny have a chemistry that none of the other couples can equal, they are the Big Bang Theory, so is it any surprise they are being minimized to promote the Sheldon Show.

I have been complaining about this since Season 6 began as something was off about Lenny but especially Penny. My gut told  me (thru the writers) that Penny was settling for Leonard, sure the writers throw Lennies some crumbs here and there but I got the feeling that Penny just don't care for Leonard in the way we were lead to believe in earlier seasons.  

I started noticing Penny being more caring toward Sheldon and how dismissive of Leonard she had become. Then Season 7 hit and the Penny siding with Sheldon hit full speed and hasn't stop. Maybe I wouldn't feel this way if Penny gave a darn for all the crap Leonard went through in his childhood, a mother that hates her son, degrades him every chance she get, used said son as an experiment for her books, but nope we get Penny bonding with EvilBeverly, we get Penny keeping secrets from Leonard about his mother/roommate kissing, I could go on but I think most people can probably see where I am going. Heck just look at the 200th Episode if you need more proof --- how am I suppose to believe that Penny really loves Leonard when she is dismissive of him, tells him he probably deserved what happen to him, complain about everything he does, his hobbies, his clothing aka his hat, etc.

I was told it's because Penny has a hard time expressing her love to Leonard and that she is very romantic -- which I don't hold the romantic thing against her but this is the same Penny that couldn't even remember her own husband birthday, but she had no problem remembering Sheldon and went all out for his B-day party. We are coming up on the end of Season 9 and things are worst for Lenny, imo. No storylines for them as it's always about how Sheldon feels, what Sheldon wants, Sheldon must be first and foremost when it comes to Lenny, nothing has change other than Lenny got a crappy wedding, with no honeymoon, still living in 4A, rarely have a moment of just them being a married couple. Oh how can I forget writers did throw a little bone Lenny fans way, they get to stand behind the island in the kitchen of 4A most of the time. Yet Penny can go over to 4B with Sheldon with no problems while her husband is in 4A because she is mad at Leonard.

I had no faith in Steven Molaro or anything he had to say about Lenny but I was told he was a big Lenny fan well, all I have to say is with friend aka fans like him who need enemies aka haters.  Both Leonard (kissing some girl on while on the boat - comes to surfaces 2 years late, wth) and Penny (she and Sheldon has so much in common and she goes to him for advice since he is the wisest man she knows, wth)  have been regressed due to "The Sheldon Show" so why have them get engaged or why have them get married as they act like no newlyweds I know or seem on tv. 

Yo TPTB why are you keeping Leonard around as he never gets a storyline that doesn't include Sheldon and his married is barely recognized. They only reason I see you holding onto him is so that Sheldon can have his favorite whipping boy as Leonard never comes out on top when he is pitted against to the wonderful Sheldon. It's not like his wife Penny is all that happy to be with him (not from what I see on screen ). Why not #FreeLeonard?

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5 hours ago, Serena_nyc1995 said:

I agree with you about lack cerebral stuff between Shamy. Any one else feel like Amy has become a put-upon stereotypical sitcom girlfriend ??  I love her, but  she has kinda lost her personality. I forget she is even a genius scientist. All she cares about is relationships. Thats it. There is nothing that makes her unique. If Sheldon had just met the Amy of today, he might not have fallen for her. He liked Amy because of her  quirks and he admired her mind. Its one thing to want to be social, but that does not mean you lose everything else. I love all the progess they made this season but that does not mean they can't retain some of their old charm as well. Now all she does is complain about Sheldon when he remotely does anything related to his geeky interests, when the whole point of Shamy was that Sheldon and Amy (unlike Lenny) were an intellectual quirky couple , who had a lot in common.

 Amy's role now is to make Sheldon a 'better person' and 'more normal'. Thats so cliche .Ughh. They used to genuinely enjoy each other's company in season 4/5, weirdly. I miss episodes like The Herb Garden Germination where Sheldon and Amy team up or when they played Counterfactuals, Now only Sheldon talks about any kind of intellectual stuff, when earlier it used to be both Amy and Sheldon.

I have a huge problem with the way the show writes women scientists in general. Just wearing glasses does not make anyone a geek.None of the girls talk about science or have any kind  of intelligent conversation. Its always some  relationship related stuff or gossip. They don't even share the guys' interests. If I watched a random episode, I would never have guessed Bernie or Amy were scientists. Unpopular opinion, but its true. On the bright side, I Ioved the  Howard, Sheldon and Leonard patent storyline and I hope they make something of the super fluid gyroscope !! 

Absolutely yes...that's why I can't stand Season 9 version of Amy...if they keep her character like this even in season 10 I'm not going to like her anymore.  They're ruining Sheldon's character as well with her constant push to make him more normal.  The writers are seriously messing up. And they also need to stop with the Sheldon's baby references. It's seriously gettin' out of control.

Edited by Cindi May

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I don't normally peek into this thread, but now that I don't belong in the shippers threads anymore, I need a new turf so... :p Reading around a bit at the general discontent most long-term shippers of the couples have, I think it can actually all be explained very simply in terms of writing style. I remember when back in S6 or so we used to complain about the show never allowing itself to be sweet without delivering a punch right after the sweet line that essentially deflated the whole thing. Just the other day I was watching YouTube clips of Karen Walker from W&G and I realized how much I am conditioned to expect the punch, the mean joke, at every turn, and I am always surprised when it doesn't come. It's like I've forgotten that comedy can be written around positive things. And this is Karen Walker we are talking about, a spoiled brat of an alcoholic, hardly the Pollyanna of television. TBBT (recently? or traditionally? - discuss) is centered so much around the idea that humor means going as close as possible to cruel, just to pull back at the last minute so it doesn't come across as downright dysfunctional and abusive. The problem being that (maybe because with time the writing has become less sharp, maybe because they've gotten lazy, maybe because they've become more bitter) the line is crossed far too often, and it has slowly eroded what used to be sweet and charming about these characters and these dynamics. 

And this is never as evident as with the romantic relationships. So much of the writing when it comes to Shamy and Lenny is based around the partners, mostly Sheldon and Penny, saying or doing upsetting things so that the audience can laugh and go "I cannot believe he/she just said/did that!" or laugh at the disappointed reaction of their partner (which is a whole other level of messed up sense of humor, IMO). Occasionally Leonard and Amy do too, but their role is usually the one of the poor martyr. And what's even more worrying to me is that these jokes and plots are in there because the studio audience obviously laughs at it, because the writers say that if something doesn't make people laugh, they take it out. So people obviously laugh at this. Consistently. 

And it also explains a lot in terms of why these characters seem to have changed radically through the years, especially Amy. I think that part of the reason why she's become almost an entirely different character, who lost her quirky and charming eccentricity and social awkwardness, through the years is because when she was a female Sheldon they couldn't write the humor around Sheldon saying and doing borderline cruel things because that Amy wouldn't be getting upset but instead either go along with him or give back some of her own and that, in their mind, isn't funny. Because pairings need to have conflict and be messed up in order to be funny. It's striking how the dynamic between the two shifted almost immediately after they became officially romantic (save for most of S8, which was obviously a fluke by now), although it arguably didn't noticeably deteriorate until S6. To the writers, romantic relationships are apparently only funny insofar as the partners are unhappy and unsatisfied with each other. Nevermind that you can have conflict between the couple and external circumstances, rather than within the couple, and still have comedy.

They will occasionally write some genuine heartfelt moments between the couples because I *do* believe that deep down they are not really sitting in the writers room consciously going "mwhahahaha isn't it hilarious to write totally messed up relationships??". They honestly want you to root for their relationships and believe that they're good and meant to be. But, to them, humor is about writing mean jokes and see how much they can get away with and they don't seem to care or be aware that, with time, this really damages the perception of their relationships and it's the little things that make up every episode that lead people to cheer for or against a couple, not the one big moment a year where we are shown (or, at worst, told by the characters) how amazing and loving these relationships are. It's one thing to make borderline cruel jokes between two characters when it's an unrequited or one-off relationship. Say with Sheldon and Martha, or Penny and Zack, or what have you. But not in the context of what's meant to be a deep and meaningful long-term relationship. I keep going back to Shamy's current intimate life. Lorre, in the interview after the episode aired essentially said Sheldon treated sex like an experiment, he tried it, and while he enjoyed it, he doesn't care to do it again because he's above all that stuff. Essentially, Lorre took Amy's character entirely out of the equation in that statement, as if she were merely some kind of sex toy Sheldon experimented with to see what the fuss was about. There would be absolutely nothing wrong with that and it would have even been hilarious had this been about a one-night stand with some random girl he was never going to see again. But not with his girlfriend of five/six years with whom he is meant to be deeply in love with and likely spend the rest of his life with. That is NOT funny. And I'm sure Lenny fans have tons of examples too where you can make a similar argument. Leonard cheating, for example. It might have been relatively funny (arguably, I know - cheating shouldn't be funny) to watch that plot unfold with Priya and Alice back in S4/5, but NOT with Penny.

And this leads me to the issue some have with this being the Sheldon Show (and, trust me, as an Amy fan I do understand how frustrating it is to see your favorite being molded around Sheldon's antics instead of having their own story and consistent personality). Jim is incredibly talented, and I love Sheldon to bits and relate to him a lot, so I do understand why he's the breakthrough character and why the show wouldn't have lasted this long without him. But I do also think that this is the Sheldon Show because Sheldon affords the writers the chance to effortlessly write their favorite brand of humor, the cruel humor, hiding behind the "Sheldon doesn't really mean it" excuse. Although it seems to me that Raj has been increasingly taking over Sheldon's role as the "villain" of the show now (particularly ever since Sheldon has softened considerably towards Amy since S8), which is even worse because Raj is meant to be self-aware and his actions are not out of lack of filters or social stuntedness but blatant douchebaggery and selfishness.

Bottom line to me is that these were criticisms that outsiders have made to the show a lot since forever, but TPTB are making it really hard now even for long-term fans to defend their work. IMO.

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7 hours ago, Serena_nyc1995 said:

I agree with you about lack cerebral stuff between Shamy. Any one else feel like Amy has become a put-upon stereotypical sitcom girlfriend ??  I love her, but  she has kinda lost her personality. I forget she is even a genius scientist. All she cares about is relationships. Thats it. There is nothing that makes her unique. If Sheldon had just met the Amy of today, he might not have fallen for her. He liked Amy because of her  quirks and he admired her mind. Its one thing to want to be social, but that does not mean you lose everything else. I love all the progess they made this season but that does not mean they can't retain some of their old charm as well. Now all she does is complain about Sheldon when he remotely does anything related to his geeky interests, when the whole point of Shamy was that Sheldon and Amy (unlike Lenny) were an intellectual quirky couple , who had a lot in common.

 Amy's role now is to make Sheldon a 'better person' and 'more normal'. Thats so cliche .Ughh. They used to genuinely enjoy each other's company in season 4/5, weirdly. I miss episodes like The Herb Garden Germination where Sheldon and Amy team up or when they played Counterfactuals, Now only Sheldon talks about any kind of intellectual stuff, when earlier it used to be both Amy and Sheldon.

I have a huge problem with the way the show writes women scientists in general. Just wearing glasses does not make anyone a geek.None of the girls talk about science or have any kind  of intelligent conversation. Its always some  relationship related stuff or gossip. They don't even share the guys' interests. If I watched a random episode, I would never have guessed Bernie or Amy were scientists. Unpopular opinion, but its true. On the bright side, I Ioved the  Howard, Sheldon and Leonard patent storyline and I hope they make something of the super fluid gyroscope !! 

I couldn't agree more with all of this and especially the last part. Never like this season the writers have demonstrated that they (unconsciously or consciously) think science and nerdy interests are exclusively a man's domain. They write an episode centered around science, like the Positive Negative reaction, for the men, and then, almost as an afterthought, have the women sitting around drinking wine and talking babies just to give them something to do. They never ever put any effort whatsoever anymore in showing the women, especially Amy who was meant to be the geekiest of them all, have any interest in something that isn't their relationships or someone else's relationship. The only times women are allowed to talk about nerdy stuff is to shock and amuse their men, as if the joke is that there's no way in hell they can be into that stuff (like when the women are discussing Batman vs Superman), and quickly revert back to men and gossip shortly thereafter. On top of that you have offensive implications like Penny being good at her job just because it involves flirting, not because, gee, I don't know, she actually worked hard at it and suggesting pharma sales rep have no training whatsoever and only go around flaunting their cleavage and the only doctors out there for them to sell drugs too are apparently straight men. 

And it's not like they wouldn't have had the chance. When Bernie turned out to be pregnant, why couldn't Amy be the one with the jokes about doing experiments if she has twins, since it's right up her field of study in a way? When they were doing FWF, why was Amy trying to coddle that jerk that is Raj over his heartache instead of telling him off for interrupting (and since when has she become a relationship expert?). When Shamy were broken up, why did Amy get not a single plot where she decided to focus on her job or some crazy interest instead of pining around for a boyfriend all of a sudden? Last season, Sheldon helped Leonard with his idea, he became co-author on his paper and that's been an ongoing science storyline ever since. Amy did THE EXACT SAME THING with Kripke, around the same time last season, and all she got was a bottle of wine and the entire point was just to show how that made Sheldon jealous and it was forgotten. Because obviously when a woman contributes to a paper, she doesn't even get authorship credentials. A bottle of wine will do! And her career is nothing more than a ploy that affects her man's ego, just like Penny's is to Leonard. 

On top of it all, you have Raj acting like a total jerk and yet women drop at his feet and the ones that don't all huddle around him to help him with his jack-assery and act like the problem is the poor women HE is treating like garbage. I honestly don't know what's happening this year but the misogyny has reached levels never reached before on a show that I always defended against such accusations. Literally all women are on this show for this season is to drink wine and be romantic/sexual/coddling objects for their men, with no journey of their own, no development of their own, no discoveries of their own, no lives of their own. 

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2 hours ago, koops said:

I don't normally peek into this thread, but now that I don't belong in the shippers threads anymore, I need a new turf so... :p Reading around a bit at the general discontent most long-term shippers of the couples have, I think it can actually all be explained very simply in terms of writing style. I remember when back in S6 or so we used to complain about the show never allowing itself to be sweet without delivering a punch right after the sweet line that essentially deflated the whole thing. Just the other day I was watching YouTube clips of Karen Walker from W&G and I realized how much I am conditioned to expect the punch, the mean joke, at every turn, and I am always surprised when it doesn't come. It's like I've forgotten that comedy can be written around positive things. And this is Karen Walker we are talking about, a spoiled brat of an alcoholic, hardly the Pollyanna of television. TBBT (recently? or traditionally? - discuss) is centered so much around the idea that humor means going as close as possible to cruel, just to pull back at the last minute so it doesn't come across as downright dysfunctional and abusive. The problem being that (maybe because with time the writing has become less sharp, maybe because they've gotten lazy, maybe because they've become more bitter) the line is crossed far too often, and it has slowly eroded what used to be sweet and charming about these characters and these dynamics. 

And this is never as evident as with the romantic relationships. So much of the writing when it comes to Shamy and Lenny is based around the partners, mostly Sheldon and Penny, saying or doing upsetting things so that the audience can laugh and go "I cannot believe he/she just said/did that!" or laugh at the disappointed reaction of their partner (which is a whole other level of messed up sense of humor, IMO). Occasionally Leonard and Amy do too, but their role is usually the one of the poor martyr. And what's even more worrying to me is that these jokes and plots are in there because the studio audience obviously laughs at it, because the writers say that if something doesn't make people laugh, they take it out. So people obviously laugh at this. Consistently. 

And it also explains a lot in terms of why these characters seem to have changed radically through the years, especially Amy. I think that part of the reason why she's become almost an entirely different character, who lost her quirky and charming eccentricity and social awkwardness, through the years is because when she was a female Sheldon they couldn't write the humor around Sheldon saying and doing borderline cruel things because that Amy wouldn't be getting upset but instead either go along with him or give back some of her own and that, in their mind, isn't funny. Because pairings need to have conflict and be messed up in order to be funny. It's striking how the dynamic between the two shifted almost immediately after they became officially romantic (save for most of S8, which was obviously a fluke by now), although it arguably didn't noticeably deteriorate until S6. To the writers, romantic relationships are apparently only funny insofar as the partners are unhappy and unsatisfied with each other. Nevermind that you can have conflict between the couple and external circumstances, rather than within the couple, and still have comedy.

They will occasionally write some genuine heartfelt moments between the couples because I *do* believe that deep down they are not really sitting in the writers room consciously going "mwhahahaha isn't it hilarious to write totally messed up relationships??". They honestly want you to root for their relationships and believe that they're good and meant to be. But, to them, humor is about writing mean jokes and see how much they can get away with and they don't seem to care or be aware that, with time, this really damages the perception of their relationships and it's the little things that make up every episode that lead people to cheer for or against a couple, not the one big moment a year where we are shown (or, at worst, told by the characters) how amazing and loving these relationships are. It's one thing to make borderline cruel jokes between two characters when it's an unrequited or one-off relationship. Say with Sheldon and Martha, or Penny and Zack, or what have you. But not in the context of what's meant to be a deep and meaningful long-term relationship. I keep going back to Shamy's current intimate life. Lorre, in the interview after the episode aired essentially said Sheldon treated sex like an experiment, he tried it, and while he enjoyed it, he doesn't care to do it again because he's above all that stuff. Essentially, Lorre took Amy's character entirely out of the equation in that statement, as if she were merely some kind of sex toy Sheldon experimented with to see what the fuss was about. There would be absolutely nothing wrong with that and it would have even been hilarious had this been about a one-night stand with some random girl he was never going to see again. But not with his girlfriend of five/six years with whom he is meant to be deeply in love with and likely spend the rest of his life with. That is NOT funny. And I'm sure Lenny fans have tons of examples too where you can make a similar argument. Leonard cheating, for example. It might have been relatively funny (arguably, I know - cheating shouldn't be funny) to watch that plot unfold with Priya and Alice back in S4/5, but NOT with Penny.

And this leads me to the issue some have with this being the Sheldon Show (and, trust me, as an Amy fan I do understand how frustrating it is to see your favorite being molded around Sheldon's antics instead of having their own story and consistent personality). Jim is incredibly talented, and I love Sheldon to bits and relate to him a lot, so I do understand why he's the breakthrough character and why the show wouldn't have lasted this long without him. But I do also think that this is the Sheldon Show because Sheldon affords the writers the chance to effortlessly write their favorite brand of humor, the cruel humor, hiding behind the "Sheldon doesn't really mean it" excuse. Although it seems to me that Raj has been increasingly taking over Sheldon's role as the "villain" of the show now (particularly ever since Sheldon has softened considerably towards Amy since S8), which is even worse because Raj is meant to be self-aware and his actions are not out of lack of filters or social stuntedness but blatant douchebaggery and selfishness.

Bottom line to me is that these were criticisms that outsiders have made to the show a lot since forever, but TPTB are making it really hard now even for long-term fans to defend their work. IMO.

Bingo. And it's also interesting this season that the mean-spiritedness is dovetailing with an almost unprecedented creative poverty. The writers have long had a preference for writing jokes in which one character puts down another/ frustrates another, and the humour is the other character's impotent discomfiture (if he/she understands) or his/her lack of understanding. And, as you say, it's really easy to have Sheldon be the putter-down, because you have the (increasingly less) plausible deniability of 'Oh, it's Sheldon. He doesn't know any better.'

But increasingly (and this has been going on for a while) the writers have been willing to derail the other characters in order to engineer these situations. With Amy and Sheldon, the humour was precisely that they were alike, took each other's batshit conceits seriously, and somehow still played off each other to great effect. We were trusted to enjoy the craziness as an audience, or our hands were held by having a Leonard or a Penny giving them the side-eye. But as time went by, the writers could no longer trust their audience to savour the goofiness, so Amy had to be force-fit into the role of Straight Man, amputating whatever bits of her character didn't fit into the mould, and grafting on bits of Leonard or Raj (as applicable) to fit.

The streak of cruelty was never more apparent than when Amy was given a brand-new tragic backstory with borderline abuse, for no other reason than for us to snigger at her sadness, her isolation, her frustration and the metric tonnes of bullshit she puts up with. Until now, when Sheldon and Amy have had sex and Sheldon- after almost two seasons' worth of increasing physical intimacy with Amy, and a near breakdown over their breakup- displayed an expression of polite, benign 'Ho hum, what a nice bowl of soup' in the immediate aftermath of the sex, and a combination of obliviousness and indifference in every episode afterwards.

Now, this in and of itself isn't the cruel part. If Amy had herself said 'All the fuss was about that?!?', or 'Well, that was nice, but it'll hold me for a while' after the sex- well, problem solved! But no. The show has gone out of its way to clarify that Amy really really really loved the sex, and really really really would like to do it again, before her next birthday. She's back to scrounging for excuses to see her boyfriend with his trousers off, or dropping heavy hints about his birthday suit. And lo and behold, we are back to the familiar territory of an unthinking Sheldon and his frustrated/ disappointed scene-partner. And it is particularly nasty, because the show is also not shy about drawing attention to Amy's frumpiness or how she dresses like a little old lady. And before I used to excuse the show by saying that it was always made clear that Amy was worthy of sexual desire, and that Sheldon did desire her, but his desire was born of her mind and that it manifested in unconventional ways. But now? Now I wonder. Amy hasn't been allowed to display her once-formidable intellect in such a long time. The only signs of intellectual engagement on the show this season have come from Sheldon (or, when the writers are feeling generous, Leonard or Howard). We haven't seen Sheldon giggle at Amy's atrocious science puns, or coo over her vixenish experimental-fu, in a dog's age. So all we are left with is the frumpy, put-upon sitcom girlfriend who is gagging for it from her unresponsive boyfriend. And that is such an ugly, ugly place to be, that I am hard put to it to believe that that is what the writers intend. But we have had a string of episodes in which the writers deliberately engineer a situation in which Sheldon could spontaneously show desire for Amy, and every single time they've said 'BAZINGA!' And I'm hard pressed to call it anything other than cruelty.

And what can I even say about Leonard and Penny? I'm not a Lenny, so I'm sure my Lenny friends can speak to this better than I can. And God knows, I think Leonard has been hard done by the writers for many a season now. Poor Johnny Galecki must have rubbed his eyes hard when he saw the scripts for 'The Champagne Reflection', or even his storyline with Howard in the S8 Christmas episode. 'This can't be right', he must have thought. 'I get to do something that doesn't revolve around my insecurities about Penny, or my relationship with Penny in some way, or standing in a corner reacting to Sheldon. Where's the 'BAZINGA!'?' And I'll admit a (not so) secret- both Leonard and Amy became progressively less interesting to me, the more they were defined by their romantic relationships. So Leonard? Well, that poor fellow is a lost cause, and so, I suspect, is Amy.

But Penny? She used to be one of my absolute favourites. I cherished her friendships with Sheldon, Bernadette and Amy. I loved her sass and her spunk. I even chortled indulgently at her nasty streak, because it was balanced by a protective kindness towards the people she loved- and the waifs and strays they brought with them. And my God, girl, what are you becoming? Well, I have an answer for that. You seem to be turning into some sort of amoeboid, shifting cross between Leonard and- bizarrely- Amy. At least as far as Sheldon is concerned. I once said bitterly that I thought of the show as clutching a can of Red Bull in one hand, and a glittery notebook with 'Mrs. Sheldon Lee Cooper' embossed on it, in the other. And my God, that seems truer and truer nowadays.

Lio already pointed this out in the S9 thread, but it bears repeating here. It's been particularly apparent since the 200th episode that the writers are putting words in Penny's mouth that you would ordinarily expect of Amy, and vice versa. Whom would you ordinarily expect to kindly-but-firmly tell Sheldon to deal with his crisis the way he feels best, Penny or Amy? Whom would you ordinarily expect to bicker with Leonard over the proper treatment of Sheldon, Penny or Amy?* Whom would you ordinarily expect to laugh at Sheldon's atrocious contract-based puns, Penny or Amy (who geeked out so hard over Sheldon's etymology of 'pontificate')? Whom would you ordinarily expect to mock Sheldon's almost-carnal love of contracts and bureaucracy, Penny or Amy?

And truly, I don't know what purpose this serves except that the writers have completely forgotten to write any relationship with The Big Three where at least one of the partners isn't as like Sheldon as possible, and the other as like Leonard as possible. They've already made Sheldon as Sheldonesque as they can (while busily dismantling the basically-functional adult of yore into the creepily childlike-but-sexual tyrannical infant of now), and now they're turning Penny into Sheldon through the closest female expedient they can find- Amy as she was, before she turned into some sort of hideous Doctor Moreau hybrid of the worst elements of Leonard and Raj. 

*And let's not even get into the respective roles of Leonard and Amy in that conversation. Since when was Leonard all 'No, I should be the one to look after Sheldon, and furthermore Sheldon has seen me in a state of undress, so nyah, Sheldon's girlfriend?' (#HoYay #HolySHITLeonard #ShennyRedHerring)

 

Edited by wowbagger

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IRL Leonard would (already have) straightened his spine and given Penny the ultimatum move with me or stay with Sheldon and they would have been gone. But now I honestly feel that that scene is coming and Penny will chose to stay with Sheldon because "he needs her" will allow and enable her to be the immature party girl with no responsibility she seemingly longs to be

I can't honestly call myself a Lenny any more Leonard has been completly emasculated and Penny has become a self centered bitch 90% percent of the time

#FreeLeonard

Edited by JE7

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When contract negotiations come around I honestly hope Johnny and Kaley walk away from this train wreck Leonard has lost all dignity and my growning disgust with Penny is beginning to color my view of Kaley.

I know they can't really say anything negative about the show but I hope they are as unhappy as we are about the current state of their charectors and it's not just about the money with them to because I would lose much respect for them both if that is the case

Edited by JE7

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Penny has sided similarly with Sheldon before, this isn't new.  She sided with him when Leonard disproved his element, saying she understands that it is like a guy when you loose him you want him more.  She sided with him when everyone was bitching about her and Sheldon's moaning about their jobs, and they both agreed that she show go all out and pursue acting, which turned to be a bust.  So actually Penny siding with Sheldon against Leonard is not new and is no where close to all the times it has been her and Leonard against Sheldon.  Penny is a little self centered and takes Leonard for granted, maybe she is even a little high maintenance, but she has never shown any romantic desire for Sheldon and still loves Leonard, she just seems to be going through a crisis about growing up.

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