Debate Zone [Spoilers]Shipping Lanes: Season 9

[Stephen Hawking]

2 hours ago, Serena_nyc1995 said:

Raj is a total sexist jerk.

And Howard wasn't?

[koops]

3 hours ago, Serena_nyc1995 said:

LOL. Harsh, but true. Totally agree. Watching TBBT is Misogyny 101 now.They just don't know how to write women. Penny only existed as an object, so that Leonard can have the hot girl- that was literally the basis of their relationship in season 1-2. Same with Penny's career. They didn't write Amy and Bernie any  better.  Raj is a total sexist jerk and people still make excuses for him--like we are supposed to side with him(not gonna happen, atleast with me) . 

I only watch because ,  if the writers do it right, Shamy and certain storylines can still be witty.  I want  another Physics Bowl episode though. If Amy can bring back her inner genius again, Amy and Sheldon can totally win against Leslie Winkle haha.

The thing is, with Amy I did find that they started writing her really well. And I'm not talking just the very early episodes where she was still a Sheldon-clone, but the whole transformation from that into late S4/early S5 Amy was very well written and believable. She still maintained an individuality as a character and lots of funny quirks and interests despite having mellowed in other areas (understandably, due to her experiences with the girls and Sheldon). She was more than just Sheldon's love interest and that was very true in her friendship with the girls, which, at the time, was about the girls affecting Amy and viceversa, rather than the girls sitting around talking about men all the time. But then it's kind of like they just... gave up? It was very noticeable to me when Molaro took over as a showrunner how the writing for Amy essentially changed over night and her role was literally reduced to a romantic trope who was there just to play straight man to Sheldon and not much else.

I do agree that once in a while they still have the odd scene/episode where they get hit that sweet spot and glimpses of old Amy/Shamy come out (the tag in the upcoming cabin episode, for example, which IMO, is the Shamiest they've been all season save for Platonic Permutation), but it's so damn rare by now that I am just bored out of my mind most of the time sitting for that episode/scene to come. I thought S8 did such a wonderful job in striking a consistent balance between softer!Amy and nerdy!Amy (the whole First Pitch, her social experiments, the turtle business, awesome FWF segments, her ideal weekend in Hawaii being at a telescope and getting into werewolf conversations with Sheldon and Bernie, doing string theory in her spare time, her fanfics, etc), after it had been lost in most of S6 and 7, that I could not believe my luck it was back! Needless to say, the finale took all of that away and stomped all over my joy for some cheap cliffhanger drama. And even though I was incredibly angry about the breakup, I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that it could have been a chance to play *against* all the classic breakup-storyline cliches. Have Amy dive herself into her work, pick up some crazy new hobby, be in denial and refuse to ever enter a relationship again, or even if she had to date, that it would be a scenario where *she* was the one getting the comedy material and weirding out her date or getting bored at their pedestrian-ness and ditching them or spooking them off. Instead they ticked off every single teenage drama breakup cliche' they could think of (including the "boy catches girl kissing another boy" trope, which, IMO, was the lowest of the lows), and all Amy/Mayim was given to do was to sit and roll her eyes once again, just this time at Dave instead of Sheldon. It's like they don't even care to remember who this character is meant to be or come from, why she was funny in the first place, or what a gem of an actress they have at their disposal that they're not tapping into to her full potential. 

[serena_1995]

10 hours ago, Stephen Hawking said:

And Howard wasn't?

Hahahaha. Yes. Howard is a total sexist douchebag . Leonard is too.They all view women as objects. Maybe its a Chuck Lorre thing. 

Edited March 31, 2016 by Serena_nyc1995

[Judith]

23 minutes ago, Serena_nyc1995 said:

Hahahaha. Yes. Howard is a total sexist douchebag . Leonard is too.They all view women as objects. Maybe its a Chuck Lorre thing. 

Ya think?

[Nogravitasatall]

4 hours ago, Judith said:

Ya think?

No. It's not Chuck. It's the market. No one is being forced to consume. It's a matter of choice, informed by ... lack of information and a great deal of tribal nonsense. Um... hehe.

[Shelldon]

That flower suck up was weak and cheesy.

Sheldon is still the best boyfriend of the four. Skype is the most intimate place Sheldon could possibly be with Amy.

Maybe one day Amy will appreciate Sheldon's romance method.

[Carlos]

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 10:48 PM, Shelldon said:

That flower suck up was weak and cheesy.

Sheldon is still the best boyfriend of the four. Skype is the most intimate place Sheldon could possibly be with Amy.

Maybe one day Amy will appreciate Sheldon's romance method.

 

First:  There are currently not 4 boyfriends on the show, only 2.  The other 2 are husbands.

Second: Bernadette and Penny seemed to be pleased so it doesn't really matter what you or I think about the "flower suck up " as you very classily call it.

Third: Sheldon the best boyfriend? Hahahahahahahaha!

Fourth: Actually....no. Sheldon's Bed would be the most intimate place Sheldon and Amy could be, specially considering that there was no one else in the apartment at the time.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Carlos
Comment directed at another member deleted.

[camelliayao]

Lol this is so funny. Maybe they can go back to season 4. Why meet at all? Skyping and texting are much more romantic. Hell they don't even need to do those things. I'm sure they can communicate telepathically. That gonna be the most romantic way in the world.

Amy doesn't appreciate Sheldon's romance? I'm sorry maybe Sheldon can be more obvious in showing his romance. Or Sheldon can try to appreciate Amy's way of romance for a change. You know, quit being self-centered just for once in his life.

I like the tag scene. I do. It was funny and cute. But that's it. I really don't think there're some deep meanings behind it. I didn't see Sheldon's so-called romance. I didn't see Amy's desperation either. Can we just have a good laugh at the jokes and stop portraying Sheldon as some sort of God that Amy should kiss toe of and try every fxxking way to please? The girl just bought a 3000-dollar laptop for him. Give her a rest, shall we.

[JE7]

27 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

Lol this is so funny. Maybe they can go back to season 4. Why meet at all? Skyping and texting are much more romantic. Hell they don't even need to do those things. I'm sure they can communicate telepathically. That gonna be the most romantic way in the world.

Amy doesn't appreciate Sheldon's romance? I'm sorry maybe Sheldon can be more obvious in showing his romance. Or Sheldon can try to appreciate Amy's way of romance for a change. You know, quit being self-centered just for once in his life.

I like the tag scene. I do. It was funny and cute. But that's it. I really don't think there're some deep meanings behind it. I didn't see Sheldon's so-called romance. I didn't see Amy's desperation either. Can we just have a good laugh at the jokes and stop portraying Sheldon as some sort of God that Amy should kiss toe of and try every fxxking way to please? The girl just bought a 3000-dollar laptop for him. Give her a rest, shall we.

3 grand, the same amount as she spent on the painting for Penny. Coincident? I think not.....

[veejay]

On 1.4.2016 at 4:48 AM, Shelldon said:

That flower suck up was weak and cheesy.

Sheldon is still the best boyfriend of the four. Skype is the most intimate place Sheldon could possibly be with Amy.

Maybe one day Amy will appreciate Sheldon's romance method.

No woman in her right mind would date Sheldon with his terrible contracts. Sheldon is the anti-boyfriend. I feel people who even think that a relationship between Sheldon and Amy could work really know nothing about relationships.

[Stephen Hawking]

1 hour ago, veejay said:

I feel people who even think that a relationship between Sheldon and Amy could work really know nothing about relationships.

They say there's someone out there for everyone.

[Desdemona]

I would like to see Amy working on a project that Bernie guides. She could ask Amy to supervise the neurological part of her research. It would be interesting how Amy behaves towards the human test objects, since she has always worked with animals. 

And after work they could mock about the whiny patients and how peaceful and silent star fishs are. 

[Stephen Hawking]

I can't see Amy working with Bernadette, given Bernadette's PhD is in "microbiology".  

Edited April 2, 2016 by Stephen Hawking

[Desdemona]

2 hours ago, Stephen Hawking said:

I can't see Amy working with Bernadette, given Bernadette's PhD is in "microbiology".  

That is right, but I remember that Bernie once said, that they even do tests on people, to test products like Viagra and so on.

So it would be possible, that they could work on a remedy that inhibits Alzheimer or AiDS or some agressive cancers which are not curable, so these persons can extent their lives for at least a few more years.

I can totally see Bernadette working on an Alzheimer remedy and Amy could supervise the patients, while they are participating on this study, because Amy is a well known neurobiologist with a great reputation.

Imagine a conversation between Amy and a patient.

Patient X: Ouch, could you be a little bit more gentle with that injection?

Amy: I´m sorry but my patients are normally either dead or unable to speak.

 

[wowbagger]

4 hours ago, veejay said:

No woman in her right mind would date Sheldon with his terrible contracts. Sheldon is the anti-boyfriend. I feel people who even think that a relationship between Sheldon and Amy could work really know nothing about relationships.

Well, this is it. Amy, as introduced, was not 'in her right mind'. She was even more brusque and arrogant than he was, she unironically thought he was one of the most fun people that she knew, and the two of them were enormous nerds with their atrocious puns and spending hours talking about things that don't exist. Amy wasn't particularly kind or understanding, but she intuitively got Sheldon because his concerns were hers, and she was basically his spirit animal and he hers. She was brilliant, nerdy and an absolute nutter, in ways that women in fiction (especially a smash-hit mainstream comedy) are so rarely allowed to be. And it was so delightful, to me, to watch Sheldon and Amy engage in what seemed like the stereotypical first throes of an affaire - Sheldon continually talking about Amy, inflicting her on the group, quoting what she said-  except that the affair was one of the mind.

Amy as she became for most of Seasons Six, Seven and now? I agree with you. I do not see why she is with Sheldon*. I see her expending a great deal of understanding and sympathy. I see her, at times, failing to understand and sympathise. And in both cases I think 'but these are things that you immediately, intuitively got before. Not because you were so amazing or sympathetic, but because you were constituted to see things the same way.' Amy may be a nicer person now than when she was introduced.** But she is not only less interesting to me, she makes far less sense, fundamentally, as a romantic partner for Sheldon. I see her effort and I think 'It shouldn't have to be this hard for you. You deserve for it not to be this hard.'. I see her failings of empathy and I think 'Sheldon deserves a partner- if he wants one- who won't see him as an albatross or a trophy.'

Fundamentally, I'm not a fan of stories where people are Changed By Love. I'm not here for a story where Amy's job is to lead Sheldon, gently and sympathetically, towards some sort of bourgeois, neutered idea of 'normal'. I rooted for a couple of crazy, wonkish, jagged puzzle pieces who never knew that they'd find anyone to fit with. And man, I miss when that was the case.

* Except for the sex thing, I guess? Ouf. There's another can of worms.

**She may. I have long been sceptical of 'sacrifice' as a marker of virtue, especially when said 'sacrifice' is regarding an obligation that the other person never asked for.  

[veejay]

13 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

Well, this is it. Amy, as introduced, was not 'in her right mind'. She was even more brusque and arrogant than he was, she unironically thought he was one of the most fun people that she knew, and the two of them were enormous nerds with their atrocious puns and spending hours talking about things that don't exist. Amy wasn't particularly kind or understanding, but she intuitively got Sheldon because his concerns were hers, and she was basically his spirit animal and he hers. She was brilliant, nerdy and an absolute nutter, in ways that women in fiction (especially a smash-hit mainstream comedy) are so rarely allowed to be. And it was so delightful, to me, to watch Sheldon and Amy engage in what seemed like the stereotypical first throes of an affaire - Sheldon continually talking about Amy, inflicting her on the group, quoting what she said-  except that the affair was one of the mind.

Amy as she became for most of Seasons Six, Seven and now? I agree with you. I do not see why she is with Sheldon*. I see her expending a great deal of understanding and sympathy. I see her, at times, failing to understand and sympathise. And in both cases I think 'but these are things that you immediately, intuitively got before. Not because you were so amazing or sympathetic, but because you were constituted to see things the same way.' Amy may be a nicer person now than when she was introduced.** But she is not only less interesting to me, she makes far less sense, fundamentally, as a romantic partner for Sheldon. I see her effort and I think 'It shouldn't have to be this hard for you. You deserve for it not to be this hard.'. I see her failings of empathy and I think 'Sheldon deserves a partner- if he wants one- who won't see him as an albatross or a trophy.'

Fundamentally, I'm not a fan of stories where people are Changed By Love. I'm not here for a story where Amy's job is to lead Sheldon, gently and sympathetically, towards some sort of bourgeois, neutered idea of 'normal'. I rooted for a couple of crazy, wonkish, jagged puzzle pieces who never knew that they'd find anyone to fit with. And man, I miss when that was the case.

* Except for the sex thing, I guess? Ouf. There's another can of worms.

**She may. I have long been sceptical of 'sacrifice' as a marker of virtue, especially when said 'sacrifice' is regarding an obligation that the other person never asked for.  

Wonderful statement as usually from you, thanks.

[Jonny]

4 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

Well, this is it. Amy, as introduced, was not 'in her right mind'. She was even more brusque and arrogant than he was, she unironically thought he was one of the most fun people that she knew, and the two of them were enormous nerds with their atrocious puns and spending hours talking about things that don't exist. Amy wasn't particularly kind or understanding, but she intuitively got Sheldon because his concerns were hers, and she was basically his spirit animal and he hers. She was brilliant, nerdy and an absolute nutter, in ways that women in fiction (especially a smash-hit mainstream comedy) are so rarely allowed to be. And it was so delightful, to me, to watch Sheldon and Amy engage in what seemed like the stereotypical first throes of an affaire - Sheldon continually talking about Amy, inflicting her on the group, quoting what she said-  except that the affair was one of the mind.

Amy as she became for most of Seasons Six, Seven and now? I agree with you. I do not see why she is with Sheldon*. I see her expending a great deal of understanding and sympathy. I see her, at times, failing to understand and sympathise. And in both cases I think 'but these are things that you immediately, intuitively got before. Not because you were so amazing or sympathetic, but because you were constituted to see things the same way.' Amy may be a nicer person now than when she was introduced.** But she is not only less interesting to me, she makes far less sense, fundamentally, as a romantic partner for Sheldon. I see her effort and I think 'It shouldn't have to be this hard for you. You deserve for it not to be this hard.'. I see her failings of empathy and I think 'Sheldon deserves a partner- if he wants one- who won't see him as an albatross or a trophy.'

Fundamentally, I'm not a fan of stories where people are Changed By Love. I'm not here for a story where Amy's job is to lead Sheldon, gently and sympathetically, towards some sort of bourgeois, neutered idea of 'normal'. I rooted for a couple of crazy, wonkish, jagged puzzle pieces who never knew that they'd find anyone to fit with. And man, I miss when that was the case.

* Except for the sex thing, I guess? Ouf. There's another can of worms.

**She may. I have long been sceptical of 'sacrifice' as a marker of virtue, especially when said 'sacrifice' is regarding an obligation that the other person never asked for.  

Some interesting points and would agree she has changed a lot.

But you could argue that her interactions with Penny and Bernadette have changed her more as a character than anything else. I actually think what we are seeing is the real Amy, she's still highly intelligent and nerdy but she was always held back by a lack of social interaction and strict parenting. Penny and Bernadette have just opened up the desires that were always there, desire to have friends who talk and feel about issues that relate to women and a desire to be with someone they love.

I would agree that the writers should look to go back to the scientist part of her a bit more, or look at some of the quirky hobbies she used to love like playing the Harp, love of old fashioned Victorian style, old fiction etc. But i wouldn't change her back to what she was like, I think she would argue she is a better person now and more comfortable in her skin than she has ever been.

She's actually one of my favorite characters on the show and in the Shamy dynamic I find myself rooting for her more than Sheldon. I think they are right for each other even though they still have a long way to go yet with bumps still along the road.

[mirs1]

1 hour ago, wowbagger said:

Fundamentally, I'm not a fan of stories where people are Changed By Love. I'm not here for a story where Amy's job is to lead Sheldon, gently and sympathetically, towards some sort of bourgeois, neutered idea of 'normal'. I rooted for a couple of crazy, wonkish, jagged puzzle pieces who never knew that they'd find anyone to fit with. And man, I miss when that was the case.

I don't think that's the story they are telling right now. Amy didn't like the way her relationship was, so she broke up with Sheldon. She tried to find  "conventional" romance (which has always been in her mind since late Season 4\early Season 5) elsewhere, and realized it was not what she wanted. In the six months they were apart Sheldon  became more open to express his feelings and to value Amy's presence in his life, but Amy didn't know that and didn't influence that change (I prefer the word "growth", anyway). They barely spoke to each other during the break-up and when she realized that maybe what they had was enough she wanted him back, no question asked. 

And right now she is not influencing Sheldon and guiding him to be a "better" man. Many posters have underlined the differences between last week episode and The Closure Alternative in Season 6. In that episode, Amy diagnosed what she thought was a "problem" for her boyfriend and, without even asking if he wanted to be "cured", designed a sequence of phycological exercises to help him with his need for closure. Of course she failed and in that episode there were some of the harshest lines Sheldon has ever said to her. In 9.19 she was nothing but accepting of who he was and of his OCD and said that she eventually would be there, if he ever felt, by himself, the need to do something for his issue.

And as for "normalizing" Amy, I think she has of course changed from what she was at the beginning, but the evolution of the character is believable and doesn't deny what she was when she first appeared. She is still the kind of person who thinks it's outside her comfort zone wearing the dress she wore for her date with Dave, or that loves aquariums over fancy restaurants. In this very episode we got the information that she keeps  tissues from her first brain dissection and that she trained a monkey to  use sign language...would I have loved seeing her doing so? Of course yes, and I still hope for a science related plot for her, but it's not like the show has forgotten she is a scientist. In the next episode Sheldon will start his "virtual" experience in open air just because they talked about an article that relates intelligence with physical exercise.

 Sheldon and Amy are still two pees in a pod, Amy knows when Sheldon is drunk just from his texting and knows that pronouncing in the wrong way a word can hit a nerve for him, they still play stupid games, and have their Skype calls about which is the better hotel... 

Edited April 2, 2016 by mirs1

[wowbagger]

58 minutes ago, Jonny83 said:

Some interesting points and would agree she has changed a lot.

But you could argue that her interactions with Penny and Bernadette have changed her more as a character than anything else. I actually think what we are seeing is the real Amy, she's still highly intelligent and nerdy but she was always held back by a lack of social interaction and strict parenting. Penny and Bernadette have just opened up the desires that were always there, desire to have friends who talk and feel about issues that relate to women and a desire to be with someone they love.

I would agree that the writers should look to go back to the scientist part of her a bit more, or look at some of the quirky hobbies she used to love like playing the Harp, love of old fashioned Victorian style, old fiction etc. But i wouldn't change her back to what she was like, I think she would argue she is a better person now and more comfortable in her skin than she has ever been.

She's actually one of my favorite characters on the show and in the Shamy dynamic I find myself rooting for her more than Sheldon. I think they are right for each other even though they still have a long way to go yet with bumps still along the road.

Oh, I don't dispute at all that she might be more relateable in lots of ways. The issue, for me, is that 

a ) the more a character gets defined by his/her romantic relationships, the more of a turn-off it is for me as a viewer

b ) if a character is going to be defined by  his/her romantic relationships., I need to see some sort of merit in the relationship to remain invested in the character. By 'merit' I do not mean that one of them makes the other a better person (BUCKET!). By 'merit' I mean: why are these people together? What do they see in each other?

Amy might be highly intelligent, but what I miss about her (and Sheldon, actually) was a very specific, cerebral, verbal intelligence. Sheldon and Amy, of all the characters on the show, were the most stereotypical, off-putting, bookish academics. I loved their mannered, clipped, articulate delivery. I can't imagine Amy now saying that she cannot fathom a deity who takes attendance, with that precise rapped-out matter-of-factness. And I get that people change, and that Penny and Bernie's influence sanded off a lot of her robotic edges. I was even a huge, huge fan of PAmyDette. But Amy has lost so much of her specific verbal flair, which is a huge sign, to me, of the writers' lack of care of her as a character. Somewhere around Season Four, the AV Club reviewer pointed out that Amy, of almost all characters on the show, seemed to be a character, rather than an archetype. When she spoke, you could imagine that the words coming out of her mouth were what this person would say, rather than what this stock type would say. Even into Season Six, Amy was allowed to geek out about voicemail messages about 'We be droppin' science, son!'. Which is a fantastic, specific piece of dialogue (masterfully delivered by MB) that gives you a very clear sense of the character. 

And I've said before, and I meant, that the joy of the ShAmy was this glorious thing where we're not watching opposite square off (as Sheldon and Penny so terrifically did), but the energy came from two nutters in perfect sync, playing off each other to fantastic effect. MB does sarcasm and snark beautifully, but I don't need yet another iteration of 'Sheldon is weird/ his scene-partner tuts and sighs and delivers wry asides to the hooting studio audience'. I have Leonard or Penny for that.

And- well- yes, I miss Amy the scientist. Amy might be as intelligent as she used to be, but the show used to exhibit this by having her display verbal flair, cerebral hobbies and a justifiable pride in her work. All she has nowadays is the same snort of snark that Leonard and Penny can perform. And neither Leonard nor Penny is a fool, at all, but Amy was supposed to be a very particular sort of book-smart. Cerebral hobbies? All off-screen if they are even remembered. Apparently she's a recreational string theorist, but all she got out of that was a bottle of wine and a chance to spark a Sheldon tantrum. It's been a while since she got to experiment on her friends. Even in the episode where Howardette sprang the news of their pregnancy, it was Sheldon who got the line about experimenting on the Howardette progeny. Sheldon. The theoretical physicist. Not his girlfriend, the experimental neurobiologist with an actual history of experimenting on live subjects. And don't even get me started on the insultingly gendered shit about the boys talking about a patentable scientific application, while the girls bleat about baby clothes and their menfolk. Gak. 

Amy might well like herself better now, and that is fantastic. If the show were more about Amy's journey of self-actualisation: well, if that were the case, then I guarantee you I wouldn't be sitting here sneering about the tanking of her characterisation, because if the writers had a real plan and thought for her character, they wouldn't be as cavalier with her as they have been. And I would be fine with her character development if it meant that she was moving towards whoever she is meant to be. But if she is really around to enable Sheldon's Journey Towards Becoming A Real Boy? If her entire raison d'etre nowadays is her romantic life? I can't be invested in her as a character if I'm not convinced by said romantic life. And I'm not.

[wowbagger]

@mirs1, I like most of the exchanges you brought up, but that doesn't, unfortunately, negate my annoyance with the bulk of interactions in the recent past  being about Sheldon being the weird one, while Amy's role is to react to him. I'm afraid I still think that basic dynamic is unchanged, and I think that it shows that the writers don't actually care about Amy as her own character. 

I'll use 'Amy does' as shorthand for 'the writers have Amy do' (I know you know this, but I'm just clarifying!), because I'm not disputing the right of Amy, as a character, to her reactions*. What I am arguing about is the writers' choice to put Amy in a position nowadays where she is mainly reacting to Sheldon. I am arguing about the best we can hope for being that Amy recognises when Sheldon is drunk, or that she spots his neuroses and uses them against him a la the 'w'/'wh' word pronunciation (which, for the record, I adored). I am arguing about writers' decisions to, once again, have Sheldon be the weird one and for Amy's job to be to understand and sympathise/use his weirdness for her own ends or his own good. I am arguing about a lack of Amy's own weirdness and neurosis while Sheldon understands and offers tea and sympathy. I'm not really disputing Amy's choices in a narrative. I am disputing the narrative that the writers choose.

I, personally, did not need another story where Sheldon shows his soft underbelly to Amy. I do not think it is remotely groundbreaking for Sheldon to be vulnerable around Amy, or to worry about her good opinion of him. We have known for a long time that Sheldon was bullied, that he handles loss and separation uniquely, and we have known for a long time that Sheldon worries about Amy leaving him, and treasures her good opinion of him. Of all the (largely manufactured) problems in their relationship, Sheldon's emotional honesty is a really bizarre one to pick (not that you were, but it feels like the show was). As though we are in a Gothic romance, and Sheldon is the brooding master of the haunted house, and Amy the virginal governess. Nope, I am really well-stocked with 'Sheldon is vulnerable and opens up to Amy'. I have a hankering, however, for 'Amy is weird and Sheldon looks after her'. It's been a while. And, yes, you know what? If you are going to have science plots, throw some of them the way of the two experimental natural scientists and professional researchers, and the woman who works as a pharmaceutical sales rep. Criminy. And maybe I'm being greedy, but I am not satisfied with the show paying lip service to Amy being a scientist if the narratives she is given do not revolve in any material way around her career- or only as far as they affect Sheldon. Fuck that noise.

* Most of the time.

[Cindi May]

On 31/3/2016 at 10:42 AM, Serena_nyc1995 said:

LOL. Harsh, but true. Totally agree. Watching TBBT is Misogyny 101 now.They just don't know how to write women. Penny only existed as an object, so that Leonard can have the hot girl- that was literally the basis of their relationship in season 1-2. Same with Penny's career. They didn't write Amy and Bernie any  better.  Raj is a total sexist jerk and people still make excuses for him--like we are supposed to side with him(not gonna happen, atleast with me) . 

I only watch because ,  if the writers do it right, Shamy and certain storylines can still be witty.  I want  another Physics Bowl episode though. If Amy can bring back her inner genius again, Amy and Sheldon can totally win against Leslie Winkle haha.

I agree. Molaro and Co don't seem able to write female characters.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Cindi May

[April]

22 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

I, personally, did not need another story where Sheldon shows his soft underbelly to Amy. I do not think it is remotely groundbreaking for Sheldon to be vulnerable around Amy, or to worry about her good opinion of him. We have known for a long time that Sheldon was bullied, that he handles loss and separation uniquely, and we have known for a long time that Sheldon worries about Amy leaving him, and treasures her good opinion of him. Of all the (largely manufactured) problems in their relationship, Sheldon's emotional honesty is a really bizarre one to pick (not that you were, but it feels like the show was). As though we are in a Gothic romance, and Sheldon is the brooding master of the haunted house, and Amy the virginal governess. Nope, I am really well-stocked with 'Sheldon is vulnerable and opens up to Amy'.

It may be well threaded ground for you and I also see a lot of things regarding their relationship in a similar light. But if the discussions on this forum (and sometimes elsewhere) show one thing then that there is some necessity for this kind of narrative because many people didn't get the memo and there have been made some missteps in the past in favour of, say, a stupid joke that put whatever emotional sincerity between Sheldon and Amy into question. To have an episode like the most recent one rectifies a lot of these issues.

For example, it's all fine and dandy that Sheldon admits he's afraid that Amy might think less of him in 8x01and that she's very supportive and understanding - but that's then followed up by a joke about how Amy was mean and he wants to break up with her (Oh what karmic irony, Shelly!). Add to that that Sheldon now ever so often gets nice revelatory scenes with Penny and you get a ton of people asking the obvious questions like Why isn't he talking to his girlfriend about this?? Why doesn't Amy know XYZ??? Not to say that the writers should cater to a bunch of forum dwellers like us here (we're a minority after all) but I do believe the discussions are symptomatic to some extend and that ever so often the writers manage to tap into that. So now what we get is the genuine version of that 8x01 exchange and making up for a lot of missed opportunities from over the years and for once it's explicitly used to bring them closer together as a couple.

I know that is not your cup of tea. I know this is redundant for you. But looking at the big picture I do think there's some value here for a lot of the audience and characters.

22 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

I have a hankering, however, for 'Amy is weird and Sheldon looks after her'. It's been a while. And, yes, you know what? If you are going to have science plots, throw some of them the way of the two experimental natural scientists and professional researchers, and the woman who works as a pharmaceutical sales rep. Criminy. And maybe I'm being greedy, but I am not satisfied with the show paying lip service to Amy being a scientist if the narratives she is given do not revolve in any material way around her career- or only as far as they affect Sheldon. Fuck that noise.

OMG even though I'm not bothered by all the relationship stuff, believe me when I say that I would love nothing more than a proper science plot for Amy! Can something please come out of that conference she went to like a new study project or whatever??? /needy baby greedy baby

[mirs1]

1 hour ago, wowbagger said:

@mirs1, I like most of the exchanges you brought up, but that doesn't, unfortunately, negate my annoyance with the bulk of interactions in the recent past  being about Sheldon being the weird one, while Amy's role is to react to him. I'm afraid I still think that basic dynamic is unchanged, and I think that it shows that the writers don't actually care about Amy as her own character. 

I'll use 'Amy does' as shorthand for 'the writers have Amy do' (I know you know this, but I'm just clarifying!), because I'm not disputing the right of Amy, as a character, to her reactions*. What I am arguing about is the writers' choice to put Amy in a position nowadays where she is mainly reacting to Sheldon. I am arguing about the best we can hope for being that Amy recognises when Sheldon is drunk, or that she spots his neuroses and uses them against him a la the 'w'/'wh' word pronunciation (which, for the record, I adored). I am arguing about writers' decisions to, once again, have Sheldon be the weird one and for Amy's job to be to understand and sympathise/use his weirdness for her own ends or his own good. I am arguing about a lack of Amy's own weirdness and neurosis while Sheldon understands and offers tea and sympathy. I'm not really disputing Amy's choices in a narrative. I am disputing the narrative that the writers choose.

I, personally, did not need another story where Sheldon shows his soft underbelly to Amy. I do not think it is remotely groundbreaking for Sheldon to be vulnerable around Amy, or to worry about her good opinion of him. We have known for a long time that Sheldon was bullied, that he handles loss and separation uniquely, and we have known for a long time that Sheldon worries about Amy leaving him, and treasures her good opinion of him. Of all the (largely manufactured) problems in their relationship, Sheldon's emotional honesty is a really bizarre one to pick (not that you were, but it feels like the show was). As though we are in a Gothic romance, and Sheldon is the brooding master of the haunted house, and Amy the virginal governess. Nope, I am really well-stocked with 'Sheldon is vulnerable and opens up to Amy'. I have a hankering, however, for 'Amy is weird and Sheldon looks after her'. It's been a while. And, yes, you know what? If you are going to have science plots, throw some of them the way of the two experimental natural scientists and professional researchers, and the woman who works as a pharmaceutical sales rep. Criminy. And maybe I'm being greedy, but I am not satisfied with the show paying lip service to Amy being a scientist if the narratives she is given do not revolve in any material way around her career- or only as far as they affect Sheldon. Fuck that noise.

* Most of the time.

Oh, I completely agree with all of that, I also would like to see some instances of Sheldon being the "emotional outhouse" for Amy, it would be really refreshing, and, above all, some science-related plots for Amy and Bernie. Bernie, in particular,  hasn't even mentioned her work once this season...But it's not like there has been so much focus on the career of the boys up to now. The only contribution Sheldon has given to the advancement of science  (or to him advancing science) this season  was achieved while drinking rum and singing karaoke in a tiki bar (which totally happens for RL scientist all the time, but for Sheldon Cooper I admit it's peculiar) and the patent plot in general has been just a tool to speak of other issues; it was more than the girl got, anyway...Hoping for better times, anyhow, I still enjoy the little and subtle hints in the "right" direction in each episode.

Edited April 2, 2016 by mirs1

[2L344]

3 hours ago, Jonny83 said:

Some interesting points and would agree she has changed a lot.

But you could argue that her interactions with Penny and Bernadette have changed her more as a character than anything else. I actually think what we are seeing is the real Amy, she's still highly intelligent and nerdy but she was always held back by a lack of social interaction and strict parenting. Penny and Bernadette have just opened up the desires that were always there, desire to have friends who talk and feel about issues that relate to women and a desire to be with someone they love.

I would agree that the writers should look to go back to the scientist part of her a bit more, or look at some of the quirky hobbies she used to love like playing the Harp, love of old fashioned Victorian style, old fiction etc. But i wouldn't change her back to what she was like, I think she would argue she is a better person now and more comfortable in her skin than she has ever been.

She's actually one of my favorite characters on the show and in the Shamy dynamic I find myself rooting for her more than Sheldon. I think they are right for each other even though they still have a long way to go yet with bumps still along the road.

Well said. While I somewhat agree with wowbagger's that old Amy was more fun in the way described I don't think her character has been changed in, say, an illogical manner. I'm dating myself with this, but in the original "Rocky" movie we see Adrienne appear to be this very shy spinster gal who jumped at her own shadow. Because of Rocky's involvement in her life we get to see her character develop into a graceful and mature woman who could stand up to her insensitive and d-bag brother.

Maybe it's a cliche' to develop characters that way, but I do believe it's true to life. I look how my wife of 25 years, and two kids, have changed me over the years and my relationships with them validate it (at least to me).

I like Amy's character a lot, though there were times I was frustrated at how she was portrayed in certain episodes, not gonna lie. But since the reconciliation for the most part I'm content with her and Sheldon's relationship! Yay me I guess lol!

[hokie3457]

Such a fascinating conversation going on here. Thank you April, wowbagger and mirs1 and all others. Do you think Amy's present path has anything to do with the huge success obtained the series through syndication? TPTB over seasons 7, 8 and 9 seem to be writing to the masses instead of advancing already established characteristics of these 7 nearly beloved personas.

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