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[Spoilers]Shipping Lanes: Season 9


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8 hours ago, veejay said:

No woman in her right mind would date Sheldon with his terrible contracts. Sheldon is the anti-boyfriend. I feel people who even think that a relationship between Sheldon and Amy could work really know nothing about relationships. :fi_lone_ranger:

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:shy:

So, you are saying that ALL people who like a certain fictional relationship know nothing about real-life relationships?

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Lenny got screwed, not just with the wedding, but with the events leading up to and the aftermath. I don't think that it is a terrible idea in theory for Leonard to have slipped, feel terrible about i

I know this might be a ca-ray-zeee idea but can we like not have a Shenny panic attack every time Sheldon and Penny have a scene together or Jim dares to say that he likes -gasp!- working with Kaley!?

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9 hours ago, Mislav said:

So, you are saying that ALL people who like a certain fictional relationship know nothing about real-life relationships?

No!  

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43 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

Such a fascinating conversation going on here. Thank you April, wowbagger and mirs1 and all others. Do you think Amy's present path has anything to do with the huge success obtained the series through syndication? TPTB over seasons 7, 8 and 9 seem to be writing to the masses instead of advancing already established characteristics of these 7 nearly beloved personas.

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Viewing figures and show success plays a part but I just think the writers feel this is natural growth of the characters as they get older and based on their experiences. In a way I think they want the characters to come out at the other end as better people but still trying to retain what made them unique.

I honestly believe if the premise of the show was still what is was originally (four nerds and the gorgeous girl next door) we wouldn't be at a season 9, in fact the series probably would have ended years ago. For all the laughs there were there was a lot of sadness deep down, these funny characters that have so many life issues.

That doesn't mean they can't get back to more science or nerd based humor in episodes, I think we can all agree we would like to see more of that.

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4 minutes ago, Jonny83 said:

Viewing figures and show success plays a part but I just think the writers feel this is natural growth of the characters as they get older and based on their experiences. In a way I think they want the characters to come out at the other end as better people but still trying to retain what made them unique.

I honestly believe if the premise of the show was still what is was originally (four nerds and the gorgeous girl next door) we wouldn't be at a season 9, in fact the series probably would have ended years ago. For all the laughs there were there was a lot of sadness deep down, these funny characters that have so many life issues.

That doesn't mean they can't get back to more science or nerd based humor in episodes, I think we can all agree we would like to see more of that.

Bravo.  So well said.  They are far richer characters, to me, now---and don't get me wrong, I still love them in their season one mode, as well.  

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2 hours ago, Jonny83 said:

Viewing figures and show success plays a part but I just think the writers feel this is natural growth of the characters as they get older and based on their experiences. In a way I think they want the characters to come out at the other end as better people but still trying to retain what made them unique.

I honestly believe if the premise of the show was still what is was originally (four nerds and the gorgeous girl next door) we wouldn't be at a season 9, in fact the series probably would have ended years ago. For all the laughs there were there was a lot of sadness deep down, these funny characters that have so many life issues.

That doesn't mean they can't get back to more science or nerd based humor in episodes, I think we can all agree we would like to see more of that.

I completely agree with this. We laugh at these characters' struggles due to their various anxiety problems, but really, if you think about it there's nothing funny about them. People with first-hand experience will vouch for that. But that's what TV does, it takes otherwise not funny situations and presents them in a funny way. So you laugh, but then you think "Wait, what am I laughing at?". At least this is what happens to me a lot of the time. But it's called fantasy land for a reason.

The characters have changed a lot, but personally I can still see the "crazy" in them. Both Sheldon and Amy have changed, Amy gradually through the seasons and Sheldon either at a snail's pace without yourealising until it jumps in front of you or in a more speedy fashion in this season. Actually, the fact that in the beginning Amy was the one who absorbed all these new experiencies  so gleefully and changed through them, while Sheldon stubbornly refused to budge, and yet he stayed with her because she was the only one who intrigued him is part of their charm for me.

Nowadays they're both changed people but the unique characteristics that bind them together are still there, scattered throughout this entire season. I know that some people don't like the changes in Amy (or Sheldon for that matter) but for me, in both cases these changes were something I could see coming a mile away. I never thought Sheldon was this emotionless robot with a dislike for everything below Homo Novus-level and as for Amy, from the moment she asked Penny to let her come to girls' night at the Cheesecake Factory it was obvious to me what her journey would be. And for me, it's fascinating to watch Sheldon be in a relationship with a woman who on one hand has so much in common   and can connect with him in a way no one else can but at the same time has enough differences to challenge him in a positive way. And I still love them just as much, or maybe more than I did in the beginning.

 Ok, that's it from me :icon_cheesygrin:

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Judith said:

I completely agree with this. We laugh at these characters' struggles due to their various anxiety problems, but really, if you think about it there's nothing funny about them. People with first-hand experience will vouch for that. But that's what TV does, it takes otherwise not funny situations and presents them in a funny way. So you laugh, but then you think "Wait, what am I laughing at?". At least this is what happens to me a lot of the time. But it's called fantasy land for a reason.

The characters have changed a lot, but personally I can still see the "crazy" in them. Both Sheldon and Amy have changed, Amy gradually through the seasons and Sheldon either at a snail's pace without yourealising until it jumps in front of you or in a more speedy fashion in this season. Actually, the fact that in the beginning Amy was the one who absorbed all these new experiencies  so gleefully and changed through them, while Sheldon stubbornly refused to budge, and yet he stayed with her because she was the only one who intrigued him is part of their charm for me.

Nowadays they're both changed people but the unique characteristics that bind them together are still there, scattered throughout this entire season. I know that some people don't like the changes in Amy (or Sheldon for that matter) and for me, in both cases these changes were something I could see coming a mile away. I never thought Sheldon was this emotionless robot with a dislike for everything below Homo Novus-level and as for Amy, from the moment she asked Penny to let her come to girls' night at the Cheesecake Factory it was obvious to me what her journey would be. And for me, it's fascinating to watch Sheldon be in a relationship with a woman who on one hand has so much in common   and can connect with him in a way no one else can but at the same time has enough differences to challenge him in a positive way. And I still love them just us much - or maybe more - than I did in the beginning.

 Ok, that's it from me :icon_cheesygrin:

 

 

 

 

 

You summarized my feelings so well.  Yes, it is fascinating, still.  And I think I also love them more--because they are three-dimensional now.

 

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2 hours ago, hokie3457 said:

Such a fascinating conversation going on here. Thank you April, wowbagger and mirs1 and all others. Do you think Amy's present path has anything to do with the huge success obtained the series through syndication? TPTB over seasons 7, 8 and 9 seem to be writing to the masses instead of advancing already established characteristics of these 7 nearly beloved personas.

In agreement with what @Jonny83 said I think it's just a question of what the writers feel is a natural character progression. I don't think they're writing for a specific audience, especially not with the intention of dumping things down to appeal to the stupid masses or whatever. In general I'm not a fan of this kind of reasoning in the first place.

And maybe I'm just showing my biases here but I find the trajectory of the group as a whole rather believable from a personal experience. Back when the show started I'd also find myself in a university setting among a group of nerdy friends and we'd spend most of the time geeking out over whatever show/movie/game/etc. we were into or argued over some pedantic details in our field of study or made terrible in-jokes. But as time went on most of us ended up in relationship and around 30 suddenly everyone got married and the first kids arrived and all that jazz.  What the gang currently goes through feels very natural to me for that reason.

But let me also stress that yes, I'd love to have more science plots again (I think they're doing fine on the general geeky/pop culture front.)

9 minutes ago, Judith said:

I completely agree with this. We laugh at these characters' struggles due to their various anxiety problems, but really, if you think about it there's nothing funny about them. People with first-hand experience will vouch for that. But that's what TV does, it takes otherwise not funny situations and presents them in a funny way. So you laugh, but then you think "Wait, what am I laughing at?". At least this is what happens to me a lot of the time. But it's called fantasy land for a reason.

Idk how it's for others but for me there's a lot of "Been there, done that, got the t-shirt!" kind of situations that are utterly hilarious because of that. I know these kind of people, I've lived this kind of life - so that's all very entertaining for me.

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1 hour ago, Judith said:

Nowadays they're both changed people but the unique characteristics that bind them together are still there, scattered throughout this entire season. I know that some people don't like the changes in Amy (or Sheldon for that matter) but for me, in both cases these changes were something I could see coming a mile away. I never thought Sheldon was this emotionless robot with a dislike for everything below Homo Novus-level and as for Amy, from the moment she asked Penny to let her come to girls' night at the Cheesecake Factory it was obvious to me what her journey would be. And for me, it's fascinating to watch Sheldon be in a relationship with a woman who on one hand has so much in common   and can connect with him in a way no one else can but at the same time has enough differences to challenge him in a positive way. And I still love them just as much, or maybe more than I did in the beginning.

 Ok, that's it from me :icon_cheesygrin:

Totally agree with this. And I think Amy's change is more natural than Sheldon's on some level because the writers don't need to worry about the "Sheldon being Sheldon" thing when it comes to Amy. I believe Amy's relationship with Penny and Sheldon has made her a better person. She learned how to be a good friend and a good girlfriend. Of course she still has so many flaws. She gets jealous at S&P's relationship; she can be manipulative; she lies sometimes to get what she wants...But these things only make her more real to me. And I find it tremendously amusing that for some reason, when Sheldon gets jealous, people find him cute. But when Amy gets jealous, she suddenly became this whiney, annoying girlfriend who keeps Sheldon from having this beautiful friendship with Penny.

To be frank I don't like Amy in season 4 that much. It was her later change that made me fall in love with this character. What I love most about Amy is that she devotes herself 100% in her life. When she has friends, she tries her best to be a good friend. When she becomes someone's girlfriend, she learns, step by step to be understanding, patient and supportive.

Also I don't have trouble with Amy having more "normal" interests nowadays. For example, she likes drinking wine, traditional romance, etc. What's wrong with all those stuff? So being a female scientist, she can only like stuff that normal people wouldn't like? Is that some sort of discrimination or what?

Anyway, I find Amy's character fasinating, even after her "change". And I think the Shamy relationship will work.

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6 hours ago, April said:

And maybe I'm just showing my biases here but I find the trajectory of the group as a whole rather believable from a personal experience. Back when the show started I'd also find myself in a university setting among a group of nerdy friends and we'd spend most of the time geeking out over whatever show/movie/game/etc. we were into or argued over some pedantic details in our field of study or made terrible in-jokes. But as time went on most of us ended up in relationship and around 30 suddenly everyone got married and the first kids arrived and all that jazz.  What the gang currently goes through feels very natural to me for that reason.

But let me also stress that yes, I'd love to have more science plots again (I think they're doing fine on the general geeky/pop culture front.)

Idk how it's for others but for me there's a lot of "Been there, done that, got the t-shirt!" kind of situations that are utterly hilarious because of that. I know these kind of people, I've lived this kind of life - so that's all very entertaining for me.

Exactly, this is what happens when you live your life; you go to university, meet people, maybe meet a partner, then settle down with them and have a family. People's lives change according to what phase they are in, and if you refuse that change, life will eventually force you to make it. Of course, not everyone will want a partner or a family out of their lives, so I'm not saying that all four of the guys should end up married with children. There are more ways than one to live. But,  H and B are going to have a baby, L and P have talked about having one and even though S and A are not even married, as their fan I would like for them to get there (my turn to be biased :D). So, maybe they could do something different with Raj by having him end up alone? Who knows...

Everyone has the right to stop watching a show if they don't like it anymore, for whatever reason, but I think that a case could be made for "show typecasting". (I just thought of that, so maybe I'm wrong. I think that it's a valid arguement though.) 

I'd love a science plot for Amy/Shamy, we haven't seen her in the lab in such a long time...But that's due to the show's change in direction. Everything has its pros and cons.

Yes, there are many hilarious situations in the show. It's just that in some of them the funny comes from the characters' psychological issues and I guess I feel bad for laughing sometimes.

@camelliayao

(I wanted to quote you but my phone ruins the post.)

Yes, the"Sheldon is Sheldon" is what makes him change so slowly, from the writers' perspective.

I liked Amy from the very beginning. I'll say though, in the first ep she appeared I found her speech a bit awkward. I know it was supposed to be this way, but in the first ep it was different than the rest, like Mayim was struggling with it. I just chalk it up to Mayim getting to know her character.

I don't have a problem with any of her new interests either. All three girls do the same things on girls' night. Although it would be nice to have Amy and Bernie go to a conference again, or even take Penny with them. Or just have the three of them do something together other than just sitting on a couch and drinking wine. I would even settle for them sitting on a couch, drinking wine  and talking about their jobs.

 

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To be honest if they gave Amy a different personality, I wouldn't be interested in Shamy at all. Because I started watching the show from season two and at that time I never thought in a million years that Sheldon would have a girlfriend. Frankly I had no interest in seeing Sheldon in a relationship if it weren't for Amy. He seemed perfectly fine alone in his little world back then. He didn't need a girlfriend. It was their first kiss that got me. I just love that scene where Amy got up and kissed Sheldon out of blue. I like Amy's quirks, but it was the moment that she became a normal girl that made me fall in love with her.

I know some people feel Amy has changed too much and Sheldon deserves someone better or someone who's more like the old Amy. Well in my head sometimes, just sometimes, Amy deserves someone better too. So...:icon_rolleyes: But neither is gonna happen in the show, isn't it. So I have faith in Shamy. I think slowly, they'll get there. (Exactly how slow depends on how many more seasons the show gets renewed.)

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44 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

To be frank I don't like Amy in season 4 that much. It was her later change that made me fall in love with this character.

I've always liked Amy.

In the early days, she was kinda like Sheldon, with few boundaries, but her behavior wasn't the result of maliciousness, but rather a lack of social skills.

With her developing social skills, she's gained a few boundaries, but still has her moments.

As for the manipulative ways she's developed, I think they're hilarious.

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8 hours ago, mirs1 said:

I don't think that's the story they are telling right now. Amy didn't like the way her relationship was, so she broke up with Sheldon. She tried to find  "conventional" romance (which has always been in her mind since late Season 4\early Season 5) elsewhere, and realized it was not what she wanted. In the six months they were apart Sheldon  became more open to express his feelings and to value Amy's presence in his life, but Amy didn't know that and didn't influence that change (I prefer the word "growth", anyway). They barely spoke to each other during the break-up and when she realized that maybe what they had was enough she wanted him back, no question asked. 

And right now she is not influencing Sheldon and guiding him to be a "better" man. Many posters have underlined the differences between last week episode and The Closure Alternative in Season 6. In that episode, Amy diagnosed what she thought was a "problem" for her boyfriend and, without even asking if he wanted to be "cured", designed a sequence of phycological exercises to help him with his need for closure. Of course she failed and in that episode there were some of the harshest lines Sheldon has ever said to her. In 9.19 she was nothing but accepting of who he was and of his OCD and said that she eventually would be there, if he ever felt, by himself, the need to do something for his issue.

And as for "normalizing" Amy, I think she has of course changed from what she was at the beginning, but the evolution of the character is believable and doesn't deny what she was when she first appeared. She is still the kind of person who thinks it's outside her comfort zone wearing the dress she wore for her date with Dave, or that loves aquariums over fancy restaurants. In this very episode we got the information that she keeps  tissues from her first brain dissection and that she trained a monkey to  use sign language...would I have loved seeing her doing so? Of course yes, and I still hope for a science related plot for her, but it's not like the show has forgotten she is a scientist. In the next episode Sheldon will start his "virtual" experience in open air just because they talked about an article that relates intelligence with physical exercise.

 Sheldon and Amy are still two pees in a pod, Amy knows when Sheldon is drunk just from his texting and knows that pronouncing in the wrong way a word can hit a nerve for him, they still play stupid games, and have their Skype calls about which is the better hotel... 

I agree with most of this except I do think she is trying to influence Sheldon to be a better man when she can. And thats not a bad thing, he does have some growing still yet to do! One of the problems Amy had that led to the break up was her inability to communicate what she was feeling to Sheldon at times. It was her personality to get frustrated and stomp away when things got bad...

Im hoping the new Amy that came out of the break up has learned a thing or two. She doesnt want to lose Sheldon but at the same time he needs to adjust some of his behavior to be less frustrating for her. So what does Amy do? Lets him know he needs a refresher course in what empathy MEANS, not just faking things. She also reminds Sheldon in FWF that he can use his own experiences with heartache to help a friend (Raj) rather than be insensitive and dismissive of him.

She used to come off sometimes as a shrill nagging gf who rolled her eyes at everything Sheldon did. We havent lost that entirely from Amy (thank goodness) but more and more we see her take different approaches to the things Sheldon says and does that used to trigger a response from her--she lets him vent before calmy checking him (like in the laptop scene), she calmly explains to Sheldon why he should talk to Raj in FWF instead of turning up the shrill factor, and she still plays along with Sheldon's eccentric side when it pops up (like driving home just so he can Skype her, as annoying as that was for her).

Amy is still growing up too, and maybe we dont get as much quirky Amy anymore and I understand why that can be somewhat of a pity, but theres a lot to like about the new confident Amy. She sticks by her guns (right Meemaw?), she communicates more freely, still sticks up for her man ( during contract negotiations with the guys), brags about his sexual prowess in the upcoming cabin episode, and is sweet about helping Sheldon through the hoarding revelation. Through the breakup Amy has learned to appreciate Sheldon a little more and her toast at his birthday said it all--he is her greatest gift and shes gonna do whatever it takes to make it work on her end. An I have no doubt Sheldon will too.

Loving some Shamy these days!

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33 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

I've always liked Amy.

In the early days, she was kinda like Sheldon, with few boundaries, but her behavior wasn't the result of maliciousness, but rather a lack of social skills.

With her developing social skills, she's gained a few boundaries, but still has her moments.

As for the manipulative ways she's developed, I think they're hilarious.

I agree. Amy's behavior was never the result of maliciousness. But I have to admit I don't like that Amy who was kind of mean to Leonard in the early days. It felt to me she was another Sheldon. And oh boy one Sheldon is enough. I'm very glad the writers make her change gradually. I think she's becoming a better person. Not just a better match for Sheldon. And I like the fact Penny and Bernie helped her change a lot, not Sheldon. Because not everything should be about Sheldon. It's still kind of sad that she hardly gets her own stories these days. Well, at least we still get to see Shamy.

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21 hours ago, wowbagger said:

 

Amy as she became for most of Seasons Six, Seven and now? I agree with you. I do not see why she is with Sheldon*. I see her expending a great deal of understanding and sympathy. I see her, at times, failing to understand and sympathise. And in both cases I think 'but these are things that you immediately, intuitively got before. Not because you were so amazing or sympathetic, but because you were constituted to see things the same way.' Amy may be a nicer person now than when she was introduced.** But she is not only less interesting to me, she makes far less sense, fundamentally, as a romantic partner for Sheldon. I see her effort and I think 'It shouldn't have to be this hard for you. You deserve for it not to be this hard.'. I see her failings of empathy and I think 'Sheldon deserves a partner- if he wants one- who won't see him as an albatross or a trophy.'

Fundamentally, I'm not a fan of stories where people are Changed By Love. I'm not here for a story where Amy's job is to lead Sheldon, gently and sympathetically, towards some sort of bourgeois, neutered idea of 'normal'. I rooted for a couple of crazy, wonkish, jagged puzzle pieces who never knew that they'd find anyone to fit with. And man, I miss when that was the case.

* Except for the sex thing, I guess? Ouf. There's another can of worms.

**She may. I have long been sceptical of 'sacrifice' as a marker of virtue, especially when said 'sacrifice' is regarding an obligation that the other person never asked for.  

Yeah,  I am not a huge fan of this 'Changed by love' cliche thing they do either lol. They did that with Barney on How I Met Your Mother and they are doing same with Sheldon on TBBT too. Most people like it, especially when the girl 'changes' the guy. Amy has her strugges too. They should focus on that and let Amy be the weird, quirky one, and Sheldon be a supportive boyfriend, for a change. Mayim is a great comic actress and they are wasting her ! 

The message they are sending is this - If you are a geeky and brilliant girl, with cerebral hobbies, you HAVE to change.If you are a brilliant scientist, as a girl,  none of it matters unless you are normal & do stereotypical girl things.  It never occurs to the writers,that not all  women  care about romantic stuff like holding hands or gifts on valentines day. And there is NOTHING wrong with that !  Mayim  talked about this somewhere, I don't remember.By that logic, maybe Beverly, (Leonard's mom) should be a better fit as a partner for Sheldon. Lol.

 

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Do you think Amy in season 4 would be attracted to a man who goes to Vegas with his friends? Who admits he has feelings? Who acts like a giant infant and puts little pink umbrella over his head? Who cries just by talking about his roommate moving out?

The truth is they've both changed. They've both become less quirky. I don't know why it's Ok for Sheldon to change but not Amy. And I never believe for a second that Amy loves Sheldon because of his quirks. She fell in love with him because of his brilliance, his brain, his love for science and maybe his appearance. She's always had mix feelings about his quirks. Sometimes they make her love him more, sometimes she hates them.

Amy was quite different from Sheldon from the beginning. And if she has to go back to season 4 where she had no friends and no social life and was always cold and condescending rather than happy and kind to be a perfect match for Sheldon, well maybe they should break up. Maybe Sheldon can go find Beveley and Amy can find someone who has the "romantic novel level" kind of romance. (Boy I have no idea that I've been living in a romantic novel level of life. You know, my boyfriend just occasionally shows some affection towards me and we have sex more than once. I don't know today's romantic novel has sank this low). I don't see the meaning of a relationship if one person is already so patient, so understanding, so supportive but she's not good enough, because she doesn't love another person's EVERYTHING from the bottom of her heart.

So Sheldon honey, dump Amy! 'Cause she doesn't love the RA meeting! And she wants traditional romance and regular sex! How dare she! Go find someone who loves everything about you from their heart. I doubt you'll find one. But who knows. Besides you can always end up with Leonard's mother, even though she's so cold and has zero love for anyone, but hey, she gets your quirks (once in a season) and that's the most important thing! o(╯□╰)o

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1 hour ago, camelliayao said:

Do you think Amy in season 4 would be attracted to a man who goes to Vegas with his friends? Who admits he has feelings? Who acts like a giant infant and puts little pink umbrella over his head? Who cries just by talking about his roommate moving out?

The truth is they've both changed. They've both become less quirky. I don't know why it's Ok for Sheldon to change but not Amy. And I never believe for a second that Amy loves Sheldon because of his quirks. She fell in love with him because of his brilliance, his brain, his love for science and maybe his appearance. She's always had mix feelings about his quirks. Sometimes they make her love him more, sometimes she hates them.

Amy was quite different from Sheldon from the beginning. And if she has to go back to season 4 where she had no friends and no social life and was always cold and condescending rather than happy and kind to be a perfect match for Sheldon, well maybe they should break up. Maybe Sheldon can go find Beveley and Amy can find someone who has the "romantic novel level" kind of romance. (Boy I have no idea that I've been living in a romantic novel level of life. You know, my boyfriend just occasionally shows some affection towards me and we have sex more than once. I don't know today's romantic novel has sank this low). I don't see the meaning of a relationship if one person is already so patient, so understanding, so supportive but she's not good enough, because she doesn't love another person's EVERYTHING from the bottom of her heart.

So Sheldon honey, dump Amy! 'Cause she doesn't love the RA meeting! And she wants traditional romance and regular sex! How dare she! Go find someone who loves everything about you from their heart. I doubt you'll find one. But who knows. Besides you can always end up with Leonard's mother, even though she's so cold and has zero love for anyone, but hey, she gets your quirks (once in a season) and that's the most important thing! o(╯□╰)o

LOL. If your post is directed at me, I was just JOKING about Beverly and Sheldon. Haha :-)

All I was saying is, that not all women(and men) love traditional romance . But the writers pretend like they don't exist, or if they do, they are evil  horrible condescending people. They demonize women who are somewhat logical and detatched from girly stereotypes- see Dr. Beverly and Leslie Winkle. You can't deny that.

Just because someone is a brilliant scientist, has some quirks and appreciates others' quirks does not automatically mean they are cold and unloving. Similarly if someone is academically uneducated, does not mean they are obviously sweet, kind and fun. That is something the TBBT writers want YOU to believe.  Notice how, Amy only became a nicer person when  they stopped focussing on her quirks and her career as a neuroscientist. 

You can be both. Thats what all characters should be. My complaint is not with the characters, but with the writers. Thats all.

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6 minutes ago, Serena_nyc1995 said:

LOL. If your post is directed at me, I was just JOKING about Beverly and Sheldon. Haha :-)

All I was saying is, that not all women(and men) love traditional romance . But the writers pretend like they don't exist, or if they do, they are evil  horrible condescending people. They demonize women who are somewhat logical and detatched from girly stereotypes- see Dr. Beverly and Leslie Winkle. You can't deny that.

Just because someone is a brilliant scientist, has some quirks and appreciates others' quirks does not automatically mean they are cold and unloving. Similarly if someone is academically uneducated, does not mean they are obviously sweet, kind and fun. That is something the TBBT writers want YOU to believe.  Notice how, Amy only became a nicer person when  they stopped focussing on her quirks and her career as a neuroscientist. 

You can be both. Thats what all characters should be. My complaint is not with the characters, but with the writers. Thats all.

Have you considered that your view is simply your view? Tainted by your personal bias and beliefs as all are.

Is it possible that what you see in the show is just what you see and not as you imply something done intentionally by the writers? 

Because I and many others don't see it the same way you do at all

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Um, I just realised the blunder I made in a previous comment about the double standards and women who like Shamy and men who like Lenny. I didn't mean it to come off as sexist. I had something specific in mind but thought it would be too heavy for a TV forum to elaborate on. Now I realise I should have just left it to double standards. So, to anyone who might be interested, I apologise.

Edited by Judith
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16 minutes ago, Judith said:

Um, I just realised the blunder I made in a previous comment about the double standards and women who like Shamy. I didn't mean it to come off as sexist. I had something specific in mind but thought it would be too heavy for a TV forum to elaborate on. Now I realise I should have just left it to double standards. So, to anyone who might be interested, I apologise.

I don't know what you are referring to but I appreciate the thought and that you did apologize for what you felt was an error. Not many here would do that and I just want you to know it is appreciated

19 minutes ago, Judith said:

 

 

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6 hours ago, Serena_nyc1995 said:

LOL. If your post is directed at me, I was just JOKING about Beverly and Sheldon. Haha :-)

All I was saying is, that not all women(and men) love traditional romance . But the writers pretend like they don't exist, or if they do, they are evil  horrible condescending people. They demonize women who are somewhat logical and detatched from girly stereotypes- see Dr. Beverly and Leslie Winkle. You can't deny that.

Just because someone is a brilliant scientist, has some quirks and appreciates others' quirks does not automatically mean they are cold and unloving. Similarly if someone is academically uneducated, does not mean they are obviously sweet, kind and fun. That is something the TBBT writers want YOU to believe.  Notice how, Amy only became a nicer person when  they stopped focussing on her quirks and her career as a neuroscientist. 

You can be both. Thats what all characters should be. My complaint is not with the characters, but with the writers. Thats all.

Ok there're three women on the show and they all want traditional romance, so the writers are pretending all women want traditional romance? Is it possible that there're other women out there who don't want traditional romance? Is it possible that it's just the three women on the show happen to like traditional romance? Is it possible that Amy just happen to be a girl who love traditional romance, and it has nothing to do with whether she's a scientist or not?

I said Amy was cold back in season 4 because she acted like a cold person, not because she was a scientist. She was kind of mean to Leonard back then and some of her behaviors qualified as "cold" to me.

I don't give a crap about what the TBBT writers want me to believe. I grew up with brilliant people, people who can do college physics when they were only 14 or 15. One of my best friends is a doctor candidate at MIT and I have over 20 college classmates who are pursuing doctor degrees in top U.S. universities (and we're not from the U.S., so it's much more difficult for them to get admitted by U.S. universities). I don't think there's any link between a person's personality and his educational level. Where I came from, smart people can be beautiful, or sexy, or unattractive, or kind, or rude, or anything.

I get your point, you don't think people should label others by their looks or educational level. But may I say what you're doing is another way of labeling people IMO. Female scientists can only have "abnormal" interests? What's wrong with them loving "normal" and "girly" stuff? Just because a female scientist loves romantic novels, she's less of a scientist? The writers are wrong for letting Amy love traditional romance how? Maybe Amy's less funny to some people now that she's less quirky. That I can understand. But that's all.

Like I said, I don't think there's any link between people's interests, personalities and people's educational level. So whatever you think the writers want me to believe, I don't believe it. I'm more than mature to have my own understanding of the characters.

I see Amy as a normal girl, just another character on the show and she just happens to be a scientist. Just like Penny happens to be a girl with dreams of becoming an actress. I don't see Amy as a "representative" or a "prototype" of female scientists. which means everything she does is understandable to me.

Whether Amy likes romantic novels or craft&folk art museums, it doesn't make her any less or any more of a scientist to me. Those are just things she likes. I don't see the meanings behind those things and I doubt there're any. I think she's kinder now because she does kinder things, not because she's less quirky. I don't label people. I don't judge the characters by their quirks, educational level, jobs, etc. I judge them by their behavior. So Amy's changes seem reasonable to me and I certainly have no idea whatever the writers are "hinting". Honestly, they're just trying to make a comedy (sometimes a drama lol) IMO.

As for Amy doing less neurobiology stuff on the show, I agree with that. But at the same time all the characters hardly do any serious work on the show nowadays (The boys spend their work time either playing or resolving their relationship issues). The writers just love to focus on relationship dramas these days (which makes me roll my eyes). I don't think this is a situation specific to Amy.

Edited by camelliayao
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On 4/2/2016 at 10:21 AM, wowbagger said:

Oh, I don't dispute at all that she might be more relateable in lots of ways. The issue, for me, is that 

a ) the more a character gets defined by his/her romantic relationships, the more of a turn-off it is for me as a viewer

b ) if a character is going to be defined by  his/her romantic relationships., I need to see some sort of merit in the relationship to remain invested in the character. By 'merit' I do not mean that one of them makes the other a better person (BUCKET!). By 'merit' I mean: why are these people together? What do they see in each other?

Amy might be highly intelligent, but what I miss about her (and Sheldon, actually) was a very specific, cerebral, verbal intelligence. Sheldon and Amy, of all the characters on the show, were the most stereotypical, off-putting, bookish academics. I loved their mannered, clipped, articulate delivery. I can't imagine Amy now saying that she cannot fathom a deity who takes attendance, with that precise rapped-out matter-of-factness. And I get that people change, and that Penny and Bernie's influence sanded off a lot of her robotic edges. I was even a huge, huge fan of PAmyDette. But Amy has lost so much of her specific verbal flair, which is a huge sign, to me, of the writers' lack of care of her as a character. Somewhere around Season Four, the AV Club reviewer pointed out that Amy, of almost all characters on the show, seemed to be a character, rather than an archetype. When she spoke, you could imagine that the words coming out of her mouth were what this person would say, rather than what this stock type would say. Even into Season Six, Amy was allowed to geek out about voicemail messages about 'We be droppin' science, son!'. Which is a fantastic, specific piece of dialogue (masterfully delivered by MB) that gives you a very clear sense of the character. 

And I've said before, and I meant, that the joy of the ShAmy was this glorious thing where we're not watching opposite square off (as Sheldon and Penny so terrifically did), but the energy came from two nutters in perfect sync, playing off each other to fantastic effect. MB does sarcasm and snark beautifully, but I don't need yet another iteration of 'Sheldon is weird/ his scene-partner tuts and sighs and delivers wry asides to the hooting studio audience'. I have Leonard or Penny for that.

And- well- yes, I miss Amy the scientist. Amy might be as intelligent as she used to be, but the show used to exhibit this by having her display verbal flair, cerebral hobbies and a justifiable pride in her work. All she has nowadays is the same snort of snark that Leonard and Penny can perform. And neither Leonard nor Penny is a fool, at all, but Amy was supposed to be a very particular sort of book-smart. Cerebral hobbies? All off-screen if they are even remembered. Apparently she's a recreational string theorist, but all she got out of that was a bottle of wine and a chance to spark a Sheldon tantrum. It's been a while since she got to experiment on her friends. Even in the episode where Howardette sprang the news of their pregnancy, it was Sheldon who got the line about experimenting on the Howardette progeny. Sheldon. The theoretical physicist. Not his girlfriend, the experimental neurobiologist with an actual history of experimenting on live subjects. And don't even get me started on the insultingly gendered shit about the boys talking about a patentable scientific application, while the girls bleat about baby clothes and their menfolk. Gak. 

Amy might well like herself better now, and that is fantastic. If the show were more about Amy's journey of self-actualisation: well, if that were the case, then I guarantee you I wouldn't be sitting here sneering about the tanking of her characterisation, because if the writers had a real plan and thought for her character, they wouldn't be as cavalier with her as they have been. And I would be fine with her character development if it meant that she was moving towards whoever she is meant to be. But if she is really around to enable Sheldon's Journey Towards Becoming A Real Boy? If her entire raison d'etre nowadays is her romantic life? I can't be invested in her as a character if I'm not convinced by said romantic life. And I'm not.

1000% agreed. All 3 girls are merging into 1 character.  Penny, Bernie and Amy are so interchangable in season 9. If the writers interchanged their dialogues, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. 

Edited by Serena_nyc1995
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@camelliayao, @Serena_nyc1995 doesn't need me to speak for her, but what the hell. I take your point that it's a bit unfair to say that girl scientists (and, i guess, guy scientists?) are only allowed to have nerdy interests, but- with respect- I think that's a false dichotomy. @Serena_nyc1995 wasn't saying that all girls, or even all nerdy girls, have to have nerdy interests. She was asking why none of the girls on the show- and neither of the female scientists- were allowed to have them anymore. Only Amy used to have properly niche interests (Chaucer and obscure musical instruments), and it has been some time since she, specifically, was allowed to sound off about them and display her interest- she is lucky to eke out a mention from Sheldon nowadays of her interests. We have had one episode where the girls got into an argument about Thor, and it wasn't promptly undercut by the guys' gawping at them in the sidelines, or the girls immediately getting into the hotness of the Hemsworth or whatever. So no, I am really comfortable with saying 'None of the girls are allowed to have proper, sustained, geeky interests', and I am comfortable with saying that in a show about nerdery (supposedly- you're right that there's precious little of that nowadays), that's a bit weird.

And now my own $50: suppose I, personally, were to say that I have a problem with all of the girls on the show not being nerdy? Suppose I were. What of that? All the guys are. This is a show that is supposedly about fringe interests and outsiders and celebrating the non-mainstream. Why can't we demand that every single one of the women be allowed to exhibit eccentricity and niche interests, if every single one of the main male cast does? So what if it doesn't represent the reality of female scientists? It's not as though every single male scientist in the real world is all about the comic books and Star Trek. So why can't we demand parity for the female main cast? Yes, I'm including Penny. She's grown beyond love interest for Leonard and lust object for Raj and Howard, hasn't she? So why can't Penny have developed the occasional non-mainstream interest along the way? Why are only the women around to represent normality- normality which the show simultaneously holds up as the gold standard and the death-knell of fun- and the reward for their menfolk if they disavow childish things? Temporarily, anyway. Why can't we demand that every single one of the female cast also be allowed to have fun that displays book-smarts, specific, technical interests and an unconcern with love or romance? And while we're at it, why can't we demand that one of the male cast be into SATC or Sandra bullock films without his sexuality immediately being called into question?

And failing which, yeah, I demand that the girls on the show be allowed to display their intelligence, their commitment to their careers and to be utterly unconcerned with socialising their idiot menfolk.

#Girlsjustwannahavefun #LetthegirlsplaywiththeLegoGoddammit #Moregeekyfunforthegirls #GiveALLthescientistsascienceplotnotjustthepenisedones 

Edited by wowbagger
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Maybe just maybe these particular girls are not interested and have no desire to delve into nerdy things. Many don't and none of these ever have, so I see no reason to demand this particular change to their basic charecter just so they can fit someone's stereotype of intelligent women

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I agree that this season has been a step back in the development of certain aspects of the women's life such as their work (with the possible exception of Penny, but even with her, her job is seen as a tool to express her struggles to accept she has grown up...) and their hobbies. None of them, up to now,  has had any significative plot not devoted in a way or the other to romance/relationships/married life. This is particularly evident with Amy, since the writers took their time with her to describe her "unusual" interests or her job in the past. Anyway, she still plays the harp and likes knitting (Sheldon's possible presents in 9x11...) and she still works with monkeys, even if we don't see her doing that on screen.

I don't think, anyway, that now the female characters are interchangeable, they have kept their own essence. Take, for example, Valentine Day episode, the epitome of romance. They were doing with their SO exactly what fitted with their character and reflected the moment in life their character is. Amy and Sheldon were engaged with FwF, and Amy was very happy of doing that with him. That date-night was the perfect  compromise between "romance" and "quirks"; Amy doesn't want, IMO, traditional romance in the usual sense, she has tried  and didn't like that.  She has find her own definition of romance, her perfect date is going to the aquarium and eating in the cafeteria there or a FwF live-stream.* The final part of the episode, Shamy toasting to the success of the night, with Amy drinking champagne and Sheldon drinking tea, is an expression of what they are, IMO. Penny and Leonard, instead, started with a  "grown-up" thing to do, an expensive dinner in a fancy restaurant, and ended up dressed like two strange Cupidos throwing confetti at Sheldon's camera and having fun together. In  the meantime, they had some moments to remember how time has passed and that the 22 years old next-door girl** and the scientist in his late twenties have made a lot of things together and have grown up together in a way none of them thought possible.  Howard and Bernie started with the idea of a "hot" night together using their new "hot" tub, which is part of the renovations they did for their first home together, and ended up with Bernie being all maternal with a bunny, after having done all the work for saving the poor little animal, and her big revelation to the audience...

 

*Then Raj stepped in, ruining the fun with the flags, but that's another story, the way all girls are so supportive with Raj considering what he is doing right now, is beyond my understanding... 

 **I guess they kind of rounded up her age, she was 21 when the show started in September 2007, but her birthday is in December...

Edited by mirs1
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