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[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9

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thats alot of bull, people are capable of having vastly different views but can still potentially understand each others point of view regardless.

It is not bull. Of course I can understand how other people feel even if I have different views from them. The thing is that I really don't care how it feels to them more than I care how it feels to me. Let me give you an example so maybe you'll understand: you can tell me , explain to me why you consider a scene (for example) funny 'till you're blue in the face. I might understand all your reasoning and explanation. But guess what: if I watch the scene and it is not funny to me, that's all I'm going to care about. I might understand how you feel, but it is not going to make a lick of difference to me, because ultimately, what I care about is how it feels TO ME.

 

It's been building up for a while, sometimes breakups happen over the most mundane of things. Sheldon still has a lot of character growth to go through and Amy has to an extent as well. Lazy writing ? That is quite easy to say, but we simply do not know what the game plan for Sheldon and Amy is over the course of season 9. If they get back together after a few episodes then you might have a point. I hated it when they broke up Lenny, but that has with hindsight strengthened Leonard and Penny's characters.  Perhaps they could have pulled the trigger on a Shamy break up at the end of season 7. But they had a lot to accomplish in Season 8 to set up seasons 9 & 10. Shamy has been on the back burner to a certain extent.

 

Howard changing diapers/nappies would be funny as he'd take an engineering approach to the problem and fail miserably. That's the kind of comedy they'd mine, nothing violent or abusive towards a child. Your comment is rather crass, all I will say is I've seen the effects child abuse has had on a relative and it's not something I would ever joke about.

I agree with your post except the part of it that I bolded. Shamy has been on the back burner?  Shamy has been on the back burner? If that is the back burner the front burner has to be Hell . Didn't you men Lenny? S8 has a lot of Shamy in it , so I don't know what you mean.

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Uhm no. If it had happened post season seven, then your point would stand. But now it doesn't make sense. Heck, they barely had any arguments in season eight. They finally shared their first ILYs and made out.

 
By that logic, are we to assume that having a couple resolving their issues without breaking up is building up to a break up?
 
What's the point of making them break up if break ups hadn't been parts of the show for seasons up to now? It is a cheap, recycled ploy designed to stretch the show.
 
As for Bernadette, she didn't hesitate calling an eight year old a wuss over losing a game, and dared to do even though that was her boss's grandson! She assaulted Leonard over a scavenger hunt. She has stated multiple times that she doesn't want children. If the gender roles had been reversed, such things would have never made it to television and be played as comedy. 

I agree with you completely in regards to the timing of the breakup. I've maintained all along that I think the breakup is in character, and I would even go as far as saying that the points Amy raises are valid. However all of these opinions of mine are conditional to it happening at the beginning of S8. It doesn't ring as true now, because to a certain extent is negating all the progress they made during S8.

In the case of Bernadette, I must say that you are sorely mistaken. While completely uncalled for and totally wrong calling an 8 year old a wuss hardly qualifies as child abuse. Calling what she did to Leonard assault (in the Scavenger hunt episode) is also quite a stretch , and the fact that she has mentioned she doesn't want children does not amount to child abuse by any stretch of the imagination. In regards to your assessment of Bernadette you're at best exaggerating, and at worst, being ridiculous.

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"The ************llation"
The Wedding Cancellatio

Hi there all...just a newbie here, and this may have already been answered, but I found the answer here: http://bigbangtheory.wikia.com/wiki/Season_9

"The Separation Oscillation"

Synopsis - Leonard dreams that Sheldon stole Penny, leading him to reconcile with her.  Sheldon gives the newlyweds some tickets to San Francisco that were meant for he and Amy.  Sheldon continues to lash out at Amy.

 

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I said explaining your FEELINGS OR QUANTIFYING OTHERS FEELINGS ( there, I capitalized it, bolded it and, enlarged it for you) was an exercise in futility. So, if you could stick to what I actually said, we might get further in the conversation. 

As far as explaining I disagree entirely, you can use your feelings to explain HOW you came to your interpretation.

As far as quantifying, not necessarily.  I can quantify someones feelings if I feel they are objectively wrong.  For instance, if someone says the Panama Canal was built in 1941 (as opposed to 1914, when it was built), because they FEEL that way (with absolutely NO REGARDS to research).  Then I'm going to quantify their feelings (and why they feel that way) on the matter as wrong (NOT THEIR RIGHT TO FEEL THAT WAY mind you).

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One could argue, however, that the plot is very cliche.   It is not something you give a couple you claim you want to "remain unique" and very different and "do the opposite of what normal couples do," as has been quoted by the writers in the past.   So for them to resort to a cliche breakup scenario is taking away from the uniqueness of the couple in a way.

So doing one cliche COMPLETELY AND ABSOLUTELY robs them of their uniqueness?  :icon_rolleyes:

They have always handled their issues through communication and suddenly they can no longer communicate?  That seems very "hard to believe" with this couple.

You mean like when Sheldon communicated with Amy before taking off in season 7's finale, or when he communicated with Amy BEFORE filling out the Mars Application?  Oh wait that didn't happen, Amy had to spell out why Sheldon was in the wrong.  You know what that is?  A communication issue.

You think Amy isn't at a boiling point where she's tired of having to spell things out for Sheldon?

She told him on Skype that being his girlfriend is physically and emotionally challenging for her.  Why is him saying I love you, and getting to first base with her (some of the time) supposed to make being Sheldon's girlfriend less physically and emotionally draining for her?

During their five year anniversary he didn't bring up ANYTHING in regards as to whether being together for five years means anything to him.  His mind during that was on whether to go ahead and watch tv show, the anniversary wasn't on his mind according to him.  You don't think Amy wouldn't find THAT insulting? It's been 5 years and she still hasn't gotten to the point where she feels Sheldon actually puts her feelings and/or their relationship ahead of his without her having to spell things out for him.  And honestly I don't feel he's gotten to that point yet either.  

 

 

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As far as explaining I disagree entirely, you can use your feelings to explain HOW you came to your interpretation.

No you can't.  I feel like the writing has gone downhill, I can't point to anything specific, it's just a feeling I have.  That doesn't make my feeling wrong.

As far as quantifying, not necessarily.  I can quantify someones feelings if I feel they are objectively wrong.  For instance, if someone says the Panama Canal was built in 1941 (as opposed to 1914, when it was built), because they FEEL that way (with absolutely NO REGARDS to research).  Then I'm going to quantify their feelings (and why they feel that way) on the matter as wrong (NOT THEIR RIGHT TO FEEL THAT WAY mind you).

Well, considering that we were discussing subjective things (you know, things like whether the writing is worse, or whether characters are IC or OOC, etc.), trying to change it to quantifiable things is a straw man.   

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No you can't.

Yes you can, take Roger Ebert's review of The Usual Suspects; I don't agree with his review about the movie in general, but I understand HOW he came to the conclusion he did about his interpretation of the movie, and even respect how he vividly and articulately gets his FEELINGS across about the movie, and why he doesn't care for it.

 I feel like the writing has gone downhill, I can't point to anything specific, it's just a feeling I have.

That's a different matter all together, in that your unsure on your feelings.  What about others like Roger Ebert's review above?  Where a person is confident and certain in how and why they feel a specific way?

Well, considering that we were discussing subjective things (you know, things like whether the writing is worse, or whether characters are IC or OOC, etc.), trying to change it to quantifiable things is a straw man.

I was pointing out a hole in your claim, in that you CAN QUANTIFY feelings in certain circumstances.  Thus it is NOT ALWAYS futile, as you are claiming it is.

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When speaking of subjective things so much depends on what one is looking for. Also what one is annoyed by. These things are different for different viewers. Sometimes reversed.

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Yes you can, take Roger Ebert's review of The Usual Suspects; I don't agree with his review about the movie in general, but I understand HOW he came to the conclusion he did about his interpretation of the movie, and even respect how he vividly and articulately gets his FEELINGS across about the movie, and why he doesn't care for it.

So, what's that got to do with my feelings?

 

That's a different matter all together, in that your unsure on your feelings.  What about others like Roger Ebert's review above?  Where a person is confident and certain in how and why they feel a specific way?

 

Oh, I'm not unsure of my feelings.    I am quite confident and certain  I feel that the Leonard kiss was OOC and that the writing has deteriorated.   But by all means prove my feelings wrong.  

I was pointing out a hole in your claim, in that you CAN QUANTIFY feelings in certain circumstances.  Thus it is NOT ALWAYS futile, as you are claiming it is.

Yep, Strawman.  But by all means, I await to see the quantification of my feelings that Leonard kissing the other woman is OOC and how I feel the writing has deteriorated.  And your example is simply wrong.   I feel that the sun burns out every night, and gets relit every morning.  By all means, quantify my FEELINGS, not the facts causing those feelings. 

 

Edited by Tensor
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For it to be OOC for Leonard to kiss another girl while he is in a relationship with someone else, Leonard has to of had an actual relationship to do it. Joyce Kim doesn't count because it was less then a month, and she was a spy using him to get information. Leslie Winkle was just a booty call, not a relationship at all. Dr. Stephanie was less then a month also, not much chance to cheat on her. Leonard then had his longest relationship, with Penny, 8 months in season 3. Next he had his second actual "long term" relationship with Priya. He ended up cheating on Priya with Alice. Some on this forum don't think it was cheating, but your opinion, and my opinion doesn't really matter because Leonard considered it cheating and he said so to Priya. What formally was OOC for Leonard to cheat, now is not the case. Next Leonard gets back together with Penny and kisses a girl on the boat. I find it not OOC any longer. So now Leonard has had three "long term" relationships, and cheated twice. Doesn't seem so OOC to me.

Ps: I'm not bashing Leonard, just to pointing out a fact. Leonard and Penny are my favorite characters.

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 but your opinion, and my opinion doesn't really matter because Leonard considered it cheating and he said so to Priya. What formally was OOC for Leonard to cheat, now is not the case. Next Leonard gets back together with Penny and kisses a girl on the boat. I find it not OOC any longer. So now Leonard has had three "long term" relationships, and cheated twice. Doesn't seem so OOC to me.

Ps: I'm not bashing Leonard, just to pointing out a fact. Leonard and Penny are my favorite characters.

Your opinion is fine.  I won't tell you your wrong because I disagree with it.  You don't have to answer, but do you feel once a cheater, always a cheater?  

My feeling on this (which has nothing to do with whether he cheated or not, as I think it was cheating) was that it was OOC for him to cheat on Penny, not OOC for him to cheat on Priya.  

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So, what's that got to do with my feelings?

You didn't specify your feelings and ONLY YOUR FEELINGS.

Here's what you said: "I said explaining your FEELINGS OR QUANTIFYING OTHERS FEELINGS ( there, I capitalized it, bolded it and, enlarged it for you) was an exercise in futility."

You were telling me that in general that explaining your feelings or Quantifying other's feelings was an exercise in futility, I explained to you why I think your view on that is flawed.  You NEVER specified this was ONLY about your feelings and/or subjective matters.

A show can elicit the feeling to someone that Leonard is NOT lactose intolerant.  That's a feeling I feel I can quantify as objectively wrong as it's been proven time and again.  They have the right to personally feel that way, even though the proof that leonard IS lactose intolerant is obvious.

Oh, I'm not unsure of my feelings.

Oh really? your words:

"I feel like the writing has gone downhill, I can't point to anything specific, it's just a feeling I have."

If you can't point to anything specific, then to me it doesn't sound like you understand why you feel that way.

Yep, Strawman.

 

Except I never misrepresented your argument, you never said this was ONLY ABOUT your feelings and/or about subjective matters until now.  Yes you introduced this while talking about subjective matters in your claim, but YOU DIDN'T say objective matters in feelings were disqualified in this matter.

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Your opinion is fine.  I won't tell you your wrong because I disagree with it.  You don't have to answer, but do you feel once a cheater, always a cheater?

My feeling on this (which has nothing to do with whether he cheated or not, as I think it was cheating) was that it was OOC for him to cheat on Penny, not OOC for him to cheat on Priya.

I agree with you on most of your posts. I don't think that once a cheater always a cheater. Now the next thing I say might cause me some heat, but I'm going to say it anyway. I think that Leonard's success with Penny is the cause for Leonard going a little bit wild. When Leonard first met Penny S1-1, he was pretty shy and could hardly look her in the eyes. With Penny being around all the time, and being friends with him S1-2, he became more at ease with with/around woman. Just like Shamy being like high school kids in there relationship. I think Leonard started liking his new found success with woman. As you can notice in some of the episodes, Leonard acts before he thinks things out. Many times you know this by him muttering to himself that he messed things up.

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Your opinion is fine.  I won't tell you your wrong because I disagree with it.  You don't have to answer, but do you feel once a cheater, always a cheater?  

My feeling on this (which has nothing to do with whether he cheated or not, as I think it was cheating) was that it was OOC for him to cheat on Penny, not OOC for him to cheat on Priya.  

Why is it out of character for him to cheat on Penny, and keep in mind the cheating allegedly came in very VERY specific circumstances?

Just because he loves Penny doesn't mean he can't possibly do what he did in THAT SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCE.

That came with alcohol, Leonard feeling seasick, him feeling confident, and being in a party atmosphere.  In that last one, Leonard mentioned how he didn't have great memories of high school nor has he allegedly partied hard with liquor involved, so I can easily see him wanting to make up for lost time and not quite knowing better in how he should properly present himself and keep his distance from women in that kind of environment. 

People cheat and have a moment of weakness in real life, while simultaneously loving their significant other.  Why is Leonard (someone who has a habit of being a weak resistance to female attention to specific degrees)  supposed to be an exception to this?

Edited by meka3000

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*opens thread* *reads* *facepalms*

 Maybe you should stop arguing over something as goddamn personal as feelings, and let this thread be about, oh, I don't know, actual spoilers? It's especially annoying on a taping day when all people want to see in here are spoilers.

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For it to be OOC for Leonard to kiss another girl while he is in a relationship with someone else, Leonard has to of had an actual relationship to do it. Joyce Kim doesn't count because it was less then a month, and she was a spy using him to get information. Leslie Winkle was just a booty call, not a relationship at all. Dr. Stephanie was less then a month also, not much chance to cheat on her. Leonard then had his longest relationship, with Penny, 8 months in season 3. Next he had his second actual "long term" relationship with Priya. He ended up cheating on Priya with Alice. Some on this forum don't think it was cheating, but your opinion, and my opinion doesn't really matter because Leonard considered it cheating and he said so to Priya. What formally was OOC for Leonard to cheat, now is not the case. Next Leonard gets back together with Penny and kisses a girl on the boat. I find it not OOC any longer. So now Leonard has had three "long term" relationships, and cheated twice. Doesn't seem so OOC to me.

Ps: I'm not bashing Leonard, just to pointing out a fact. Leonard and Penny are my favorite characters.

I agree with this post mostly but with a nuance. The thing that was really OOC was for Leonard to be partying it up on the ship rather than a combination of working hard and pining about missing penny. Penny herself was really surprised to here the party in the background on the phone. On the other hand can we really say this was OOC because Leonard had never been away on a research vessel before. Who's to say? I think no one was more surprised by the kiss than Leonard himself. Perhaps the wise thing for Leonard to do is party when he is with Penny and tone it down when they are apart. So he learned something about himself that even he did not know.

Edited by djsurrey
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*opens thread* *reads* *facepalms*

 Maybe you should stop arguing over something as goddamn personal as feelings, and let this thread be about, oh, I don't know, actual spoilers? It's especially annoying on a taping day when all people want to see in here are spoilers.

Assuming your talking to me, I'm not the one who opened pandora's box on this matter.  That would be the moderator.

Also the taping doesn't happen till later today due to Labor Day.

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Assuming your talking to me, I'm not the one who opened pandora's box on this matter.  That would be the moderator.

Also the taping doesn't happen till later today due to Labor Day.

Whether taping is today or tomorrow, this is a goddamn SPOILER thread. I want to see set pictures and "omg what can Penny's hairclip mean!!!!" speculations, not two people going back and forth on whether or not their feelings are valid. (Here's a hint tho: feelings are personal and no one has to explain theirs to anyone. For example, if I feel like you're being a real pain the bottom right now, I don't have to explain it to you. Although, if you really want to know, it's because I really have a goddamn problem with people telling others how they should feel.)

Edited by Marina
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Well, sadly tonight is not a taping night--it will be tomorrow, because of Labor Day.

But I know what you mean.  These discussions devolve into arguing about arguing.  The subject--the show--gets lost in the pedantic discussion of who's allowed to feel what or think what or whatever.

While I think that there are times where it may be appropriate to point out a fallacy in a point of view (facts not in evidence, etc.), finding pages full of arguing about the argument gets tedious and the original point that was being made gets lost in the nonsense.

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Whether taping is today or tomorrow, this is a goddamn SPOILER thread. I want to see set pictures and "omg what can Penny's hairclip mean!!!!" speculations, not two people going back and forth on whether or not their feelings are valid. (Here's a hint tho: feelings are personal and no one has to explain theirs to anyone. For example, if I feel like you're being a real pain the bottom right now, I don't have to explain it to you. Although, if you really want to know, it's because I really have a goddamn problem with people telling others how they should feel.)

So actually it is the season 9 discussion thread that allows spoilers.

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It's true that Tensor loves to put on his pedant hat and nitpick an argument over the most trivial thing, again, arguing about the argument and the semantics rather then the subject itself.

 I've found that the only thing to do is walk away, otherwise you'll get sucked into the vortex. 

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So actually it is the season 9 discussion thread that allows spoilers.

And the discussion going on right now has literally nothing to do with Season 9.

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If you really can't shut up on the topic, take it to Private Messages. I can't believe this has to be spelt out, jeez.

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I really have a goddamn problem with people telling others how they should feel.)

Except I haven't said anything to that extent that YOU HAVE TO FEEL the way I do, not the way you do.  But just because something is subjective does not mean people have to agree with it.

If you really can't shut up on the topic, take it to Private Messages

For someone who said they have a problem with people telling others how to feel, that sure comes across to me as you saying WE HAVE TO do this.

Also we were in the middle of something that HAD TO DO WITH SEASON 9 (look at my post above the one where you entered in to the conversation), but you are seemingly attempting at taking us back away from that.

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Except I haven't said anything to that extent that YOU HAVE TO FEEL the way I do, not the way you do.  But just because something is subjective does not mean people have to agree with it.

 

For someone who said they have a problem with people telling others how to feel, that sure comes across to me as you saying WE HAVE TO do this.

Also we were in the middle of something that HAD TO DO WITH SEASON 9 (look at my post above the one where you entered in to the conversation), but you are seemingly attempting at taking us back away from that.

There's a difference between telling people how to feel (which you and some others are the champions of, don't even try to deny it - and yes these "some others" also include Tensor, so honestly, seeing two people who do that on an almost daily basis arguing that they don't is hella rich), and telling people that maybe they need to realize no one cares about their ongoing feud and their pathological need to always have the last word. I'm not telling you to stop arguing about it - I'm telling you to stop being selfish and hijacking a post that is meant to be for everyone, not just three people with a compulsive need for pointless arguments. But hey, nice false equivalency. ;D 

 

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Perhaps you didn't say anything about them jumping in the sack, but that is often the general expectation--"they've been together so long now, when is Sheldon going to give Amy what she wants?" (i.e., sex).

They didn't break up that night of the anniversary, but I think Amy had some reasons to be upset and just wanted to take some time away from him.  The break-up came, IMO, out of an organic situation because Sheldon couldn't resist pushing her to the breaking point.  I think we might have had that conversation about what was bothering her, if it weren't for Sheldon's obsessive behavior.  I don't think the break up was out of the blue, but I also don't think that they're going to be "perfect" and just sit down and have a nice little conversation.  Yes, they are at their best when they do talk things through, and I think they will eventualy get to that, but they're not perfect, so he pushes and she reacts, which to me seems totally in-character--and organic.

I don't see the break up as a stall tactic, but simply one of the curves along the road on their journey.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Beyond that one of Sheldon's issues is that he does not really know how to act around people unless he is getting some coaching. Leonard and Penny were away and then having their own issue. Amy was wanting a little space so she was no help. We don't know yet but perhaps he misread advice from his mother. We won't know till it airs.

Edited by djsurrey
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