[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9

[Nogravitasatall]

I call BS on that one.  They absolutely DO COMPARE because Penny SLEPT with both of them.  That act of infidelity IS FAR WORSE than what Leonard allegedly did.

I can't see how her behaviour then relates to Leonard's behaviour now. They have nothing to do with Leonard and Penny.  They are irrelevant to what's going on between this couple at this time. There is nothing that links them, unless you are trying to keep score somehow. Leonard doesn't even know who they are. He may not even know they exist. 

And I'm saying he made an error 2 years ago. But he compounded that now. Insult AND injury. That they have to recover from... or not. It's Penny's call.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Nogravitasatall

[Nogravitasatall]

Demanding jewellery from your partner because they kissed another woman and kept it a secret for 2 years isn't going to make the anger and hurt go away, who knows even if Leonard would ever of told her

Hi Rachel  - I said "expect" not "demand". It's a common enough thing to try to demonstrate materially as well as behaviourally that you are sorry. And the recycled engagement ring was funny and Penny apparently thought it was fine - but what can he do to stick a band-aid on this? Flowers won't cut it. He kissed a woman and kept it a secret for 2 years then declared on the way to his wedding. What a dick - and so stupid! But he admitted his mistake, he has thrown himself on her mercy and anything he does now won't help - but he may as well try to do something nice. There is no point in doing it now because it wouldn't change her mind one way or the other, because this would be something that she'd decide viscerally, below the conscious level, but it would be something for the future. He really has got nuthin' at the moment. All he can do is hope it turns out ok.

So,  if it does turn out ok then he should do even more nice things for her, because she has done something life-changing for him... if she forgives him.

We will find out soon enough how they bail out of this mess. I have no clue, and am flailing, because it's a horrible mess.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Nogravitasatall
Edit so that I'm not saying he should bribe her, because that's just dumb. He should really be eternally grateful, if she forgives him.

[3ku11]

Leonards a clueless idiot, because of his lack of affection from ol Bev. He is susceptible to responding to the opposite sex, its a flaw. He made a bad judgement call. All he can do now is try make it up to Penny for the rest of their lifes 

[djsurrey]

If it were that great a breach they ought to go their separate ways. I don't think it is and that Penny will simply forgive him. Perhaps not on this trip but soon.

Edited August 9, 2015 by djsurrey

[rachelshamyfan]

That's what I mean, she either needs to accept it and marry him or just move on but she said herself she thinks she can get past it

2 days to go!

[meka3000]

I can't see how her behaviour then relates to Leonard's behaviour now. They have nothing to do with Leonard and Penny.  They are irrelevant to what's going on between this couple at this time. There is nothing that links them, unless you are trying to keep score somehow. Leonard doesn't even know who they are. He may not even know they exist. 

And I'm saying he made an error 2 years ago. But he compounded that now. Insult AND injury. That they have to recover from... or not. It's Penny's call.

You said the act with the brothers didn't compare, you didn't bring up anything like how Leonard didn't know them, etc.  It absolutely DOES have to do with Penny in the fact that if she can't forgive an act Leonard did (a kiss behind someones back) that wasn't anywhere NEAR as worse than what Penny has done (essentially having an affair behind a boyfriends back), it makes her come across as hypocritical.

[3ku11]

You said the act with the brothers didn't compare, you didn't bring up anything like how Leonard didn't know them, etc.  It absolutely DOES have to do with Penny in the fact that if she can't forgive an act Leonard did (a kiss behind someones back) that wasn't anywhere NEAR as worse than what Penny has done (essentially having an affair behind a boyfriends back), it makes her come across as hypocritical.

Hold on steady on. We dont know abot the context of the kiss, nor do.we know if Penny well forgive Leonard. Your jumping the gun here. So whether or not Penny well come across hypocritical, is pure speculation. But im sorry some gag where she dated brothers, has nothing to do with whether shes in any posistion to take the moral high ground or not. I dont see the relevance anyway. She was a teenager then, shes an adult now in.a commited relationship, completly different. 

Edited August 9, 2015 by 3ku11

[meka3000]

Hold on steady on. We dont know abot the context of the kiss, nor do.we know if Penny well forgive Leonard. Your jumping the gun here. So whether or not Penny well come across hypocritical, is pure speculation. 

I said IF she couldn't, not that she couldn't.

But im sorry some gag where she dated brothers, has nothing to do with whether shes in any posistion to take the moral ground or not. I dont see the anyway.

What you call, "a gag" I call character history.

[Nogravitasatall]

You said the act with the brothers didn't compare, you didn't bring up anything like how Leonard didn't know them, etc.  It absolutely DOES have to do with Penny in the fact that if she can't forgive an act Leonard did (a kiss behind someones back) that wasn't anywhere NEAR as worse than what Penny has done (essentially having an affair behind a boyfriends back), it makes her come across as hypocritical.

I think that the key issue is whether she wants to have an enduring relationship with Leonard. I don't think her past behaviour as a teenager has a lot of weight here.  It's not about being hypocritical or comparing how she acted in some adolescent, casual and obviously trivial relationship from more than 10 years ago that she didn't care about.  It's about a pretty significant adult life choice, regarding the guy she has spent eight years mostly hankering for, and the first time he is out of her sight he runs off the leash. She might be disappointed, she might be devastated, she might be ok with it and shrug it off, we will see.

But regardless, he was pretty bloody stupid to raise the problem on route to their wedding. So dumb. It was a sucky cliffhanger, because it makes Leonard the villain. I'm still outraged by the sucky-ness of it. 

[3ku11]

 

I said IF she couldn't, not that she couldn't.

 

What you call, "a gag" I call character history.

Doesent mater it was still a gag, and not meant to be taken at  face value. Penny has a very promiscious past. But that has zero to do with the person she is now. Leonard most likely or doesent know about her sex history as a teenager, why would he they diddnt know each other, so therefore its void. And not a reason to justify her hypocrisy if doesent forgive him, which she well. 

[hokie3457]

The most awful thing this terrible cliffhanger did was lessen Leonard in Penny's eyes. He will no longer be quite as heroic. He may even seem to her to be just another in a long list of men who could not be entirely honorable for her. TPTB have much to do if they are to repair this once beautiful relationship. It could be as simple as a further sensible explanation as to his condition the night of the terrible event. It could be a heartfelt promise and much work on his part. It also could be an entire "blowing up" of the entire thing with them starting over, a la Ross and Rachel (which I hope it is not). The most unbelievable thing is the choice of having him do this while with her. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[3ku11]

The most awful thing this terrible cliffhanger did was lessen Leonard in Penny's eyes. He will no longer be quite as heroic. He may even seem to her to be just another in a long list of men who could not be entirely honorable for her. TPTB have much to do if they are to repair this once beautiful relationship. It could be as simple as a further sensible explanation as to his condition the night of the terrible event. It could be a heartfelt promise and much work on his part. It also could be an entire "blowing up of the entire thing with them starting over, a la Ross and Rachel (which I hope it is not). The most unbelievable thing is the choice of having him do this while with her. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

i agree in situations Leonard was always her hero. Like mike s1. Now Leonard has cheated, kiss or whatever it completly contradicts the entire show and their relationship. Hes susposed to be that one guy who was right in front of her f this whole time, the guy she could always count on. It made them different from the rest. But we knonow how Penny feels about cheaters, Leonards just another guy now. I dont know how they well repair it. The worst thing is shes susposed to be his queen, why he was so irresponsible to be in a posistion of cheating in the first place is beyond me, its ooc. 

Edited August 9, 2015 by 3ku11

[Carlos]

You said the act with the brothers didn't compare, you didn't bring up anything like how Leonard didn't know them, etc.  It absolutely DOES have to do with Penny in the fact that if she can't forgive an act Leonard did (a kiss behind someones back) that wasn't anywhere NEAR as worse than what Penny has done (essentially having an affair behind a boyfriends back), it makes her come across as hypocritical.

What you are saying makes no sense . The reason that it doesn't matter is because it didn't happen while Penny and Leonard were together. They didn't even know each other so it is immaterial and irrelevant. People's actions in regards to one another count from the moment they are in a relationship, not before. If you judge the action itself, then yes, what Penny did is worse than what Leonard did, but your logic is flawed. Why because it is not something Penny did to Leonard, is it? So you can't compare the two. Furthermore we don't even know if Penny was forgiven, so why would it be hypocritical if she doesn't forgive?  Both things are so obvoiusly totally unrelated that it is ludicrous to even bring them up.

 

What you call, "a gag" I call character history.

Irrelevant history, but yes, history. It is canon. Has nothing to do with the present situation, but it IS canon.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Carlos

[4everlenny]

The most awful thing this terrible cliffhanger did was lessen Leonard in Penny's eyes. He will no longer be quite as heroic. He may even seem to her to be just another in a long list of men who could not be entirely honorable for her. TPTB have much to do if they are to repair this once beautiful relationship. It could be as simple as a further sensible explanation as to his condition the night of the terrible event. It could be a heartfelt promise and much work on his part. It also could be an entire "blowing up" of the entire thing with them starting over, a la Ross and Rachel (which I hope it is not). The most unbelievable thing is the choice of having him do this while with her. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I agree, it's a very terrible cliffhanger as far as Lenny. I've had trouble not thinking about what the writers are up to as far as Lenny all summer. Seemed they realized they had forgotten Lenny all Season 8, so they had them discuss wedding plans and decide to elope in the finale. THEN halfway through writing the script, they said Whoa we can't marry them off, we still have at least 2 more seasons to write. So they throw in this kiss from 2 years ago. Now where to go with this? This kiss is way too complicated of an issue to use as a stall without further details, which you all have so eloquently discussed. Would have been much easier to stall with Penny getting the movie part, which I sense is still an option for season 9. Don't know how I would even write a way out of this mess, being a loyal Lenny since the first Hi! Guess I'm hoping for a soul-searching talk and a wedding in Vegas for them in 9.01 (although they deserve much, much more). Many of the  alternatives are much worse, at this point. Hoping for the best, but fearing disaster!

[MTBigBangTheoryFan]

Is anyone going on the tour today? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Strawberry PopTart Fan]

LOL. Sounds harsh when you put it that way. No, not all at once and all the time.  Heheh.

Please note I didn't say "demand" jewellery.  He done her wrong on her wedding eve. I think that was pretty thoughtless.  He could bake her a pie to make her feel better, but a non-recycled bit of jewellery at some point wouldn't hurt to tangibly demonstrate his contrition.  The withdrawal of comforts is likely to be an inclination thing - because how sexy and well timed was his confession - I think it killed the honeymoon mood a bit, don't you?  I know parts of me shrivelled at his egregious misjudgement. And I think his wife can give him a hard time about his stupidity from time to time forever, even after she has forgiven him and they are living happy ever after.  Because really, smart as he is, he was so, so, so stupid to bring it up on the drive out to Vegas. She can keep that one. It was a hugely stupid thing. He should be humble about the size of his brain for all time.

But I'm certainly not saying she should dump his sorry arse. 

Alternatively she just forgives him and lives the rest of her life pretending she never heard what he said and that she was unaffected by it. But if I were him, I'd be falling over backwards to do anything that might possibly make up for screwing up her delightful idea to run to Vegas and commit for forever.

We're both very upset, die hard Lennies who usually see eye-to-eye and I'm not picking on you nor trying to pick a fight. I think all the different takes on this dilemma are interesting. I also think infidelity is such a hot button topic for a sitcom to take on. Anyone who has been a cheater or cheatee  knows it's not so funny at all.

I don't like your vision for Penny and Leonard because it sounds too much like a jailer/prisoner relationship to me.  I couldn't watch Leonard paying for his"sin"for life, nor could I watch Penny extracting vengeance from him, bringing up THE KISS every time he didn't put his socks in the hamper.(I really like that Penny revealed that he takes them off before sex now and I kind of hope they are all over the place.) I think they are both too good and love each other too much for this  type of life sentence. Not to say that forgiving is easy, but it is possible.

I also believe that infidelity is often a symptom of an unhappy, unhealthy relationship. I don't think this is the case with our Honey and Sweetie here. I think they love each other and make each other happy more than not. I'll  be so disappointed if we find out that there was any planning or forethought on Leonard's part regarding the kiss.I don't think that's the case. But I never saw this plot twist coming at all so anything could happen. Hopefully, we'll be put out of our misery soon and Leonard and Penny will find their way back into each others arms.

[MTBigBangTheoryFan]

Infidelity only happens with married people. Leonard and Penny are not married yet. But even the happiest marriages can be a victim of infidelity Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tensor]

 

Infidelity only happens with married people. Leonard and Penny are not married yet. But even the happiest marriages can be a victim of infidelity Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Correction, adultery is the legal term for infidelity by a married person. Infidelity (cheating, unfaithful, fooling around, etc) is descriptive of a relationship that is expected to remain sexually exclusive.  Be that married, fiancéd, boyfriend/girlfriend or some other assumed exclusive arrangement. 

[Carlos]

This is such a mess because the kiss came out of nowhere, and because the writers didn't know what they were doing when they wrote it. In plain terms: they royally fucked it up. Let's see what they do from here on out. I'm not very confident, to say the least.

[Earnie]

I think the writers just needed a way to slow down the marriage train they want the same thing we do a big Lenny wedding. I wish they would have chosen a different way but I don't think it will have a long term effect on the relationship. I think season 9 will show that the women kissed Leonard and he put a stop to it right there that's my opinion. Leonard only confessed because Penny was talking about not having any secrets between them 

Edited August 9, 2015 by Earnie

[meka3000]

What you are saying makes no sense . The reason that it doesn't matter is because it didn't happen while Penny and Leonard were together. They didn't even know each other so it is immaterial and irrelevant. People's actions in regards to one another count from the moment they are in a relationship, not before. If you judge the action itself, then yes, what Penny did is worse than what Leonard did, but your logic is flawed. Why because it is not something Penny did to Leonard, is it? So you can't compare the two.

Its not about whether they knew each other or whether about if it happened during the relationship.  It counts in relevance on how penny will choose to cast judgement on Leonard going forward.  In that light I feel it would be hypocritical of her to believe Leonard can never be trusted again to stop himself from doing something like that, when penny herself got past that kind of behavior.

If penny of all people could become a better person after her act of infidelity, why would Leonard be incapable of never doing what he did again?

 

[Nogravitasatall]

We're both very upset, die hard Lennies who usually see eye-to-eye and I'm not picking on you nor trying to pick a fight. I think all the different takes on this dilemma are interesting. I also think infidelity is such a hot button topic for a sitcom to take on. Anyone who has been a cheater or cheatee  knows it's not so funny at all.

I don't like your vision for Penny and Leonard because it sounds too much like a jailer/prisoner relationship to me.  I couldn't watch Leonard paying for his"sin"for life, nor could I watch Penny extracting vengeance from him, bringing up THE KISS every time he didn't put his socks in the hamper.(I really like that Penny revealed that he takes them off before sex now and I kind of hope they are all over the place.) I think they are both too good and love each other too much for this  type of life sentence. Not to say that forgiving is easy, but it is possible.

I also believe that infidelity is often a symptom of an unhappy, unhealthy relationship. I don't think this is the case with our Honey and Sweetie here. I think they love each other and make each other happy more than not. I'll  be so disappointed if we find out that there was any planning or forethought on Leonard's part regarding the kiss.I don't think that's the case. But I never saw this plot twist coming at all so anything could happen. Hopefully, we'll be put out of our misery soon and Leonard and Penny will find their way back into each others arms.

hey SPT, I was trying more to express that Leonard should be extravagantly grateful. If Penny forgives him, his gratitude should be boundless. Of course her forgiveness should be unconditional - she has never been punitive or vengeful. It's more about him being contrite, and understanding that nothing he does could make this better. He will have an ongoing relationship with her only if she gracefully, graciously and generously forgives him. He should thank his lucky stars if she does (as they say). Because he was so dumb,  2 years ago, and more critically, in the car. They were on their way to get married. And he ruined it. 

Edited August 9, 2015 by Nogravitasatall
I 'm actually more exercised about the timing of his disclosure - so dumb

[gsxdoug]

The point about Penny and the two brothers that I think some people are missing is this; There are a few posters implying "once a cheater, always a cheater" and using the Alice incident to support this view in regards to Leonard. But if that is the logic that one chooses, then the same logic should be applied to Penny and her history.

[Nogravitasatall]

"Alice" wasn't cheating. Viscerally, Leonard knew that Pryia had left the relationship when she left the country - he had only ever been a sex toy anyway - and we all saw that. Even the boat likely wasn't cheating - I think it was like a car accident -  unless he planned it and actually had a clandestine affair. But, he had a choice about when he opened his mouth in the car. He planned to say that. So dumb. 

[djsurrey]

"Alice" wasn't cheating. Viscerally, Leonard knew that Pryia had left the relationship when she left the country - he had only ever been a sex toy anyway - and we all saw that. Even the boat likely wasn't cheating - I think it was like a car accident -  unless he planned it and actually had a clandestine affair. But, he had a choice about when he opened his mouth in the car. He planned to say that. So dumb. 

This is clearly false. Leonard believed he was still in a relationship or he would not have told Alice he had a girlfriend and Alice would not have thrown him out.