[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9

[meka3000]

2 hours ago, Carlos said:

1) Regardless of that it is not the same keeping secrets from your friends than keeping secrets from the love of your life, is it? The nature of the secret also makes a difference.

2) Funny you should mention snowflakes. As it were he gave Penny a snowflake to signify precisely how special and unique she was to him. Don't think he did that in any other relationship. If that is not enough for you to think Penny is Leonard's special snowflake, I don't know what will. But that's fine you don't see it I do.

1.) It's not, but nothing you mentioned PROVES Leonard's character is not capable of keeping secrets from Penny.

2.) Yes the snowflake is special, THAT STILL DOESN'T PROVE that the love he has for Penny makes him invincible to all forms of temptation.

I feel most who saw Leonards actions as OOC in this scenario, are those who made up their own head cannon that he would never cheat on Penny under any circumstances.

45 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:

How about when he ran off and left Leonard alone with Kurt.

Always putting down Leonard career even though he know Leonard doesnt like it  

Manipulating his friends

putting down the Lenny relationship

Why don't you cast blame on Howard and Raj for that one too?

Leonard has done the same with him, mocking him in front of Alex, his employee.

Howard did that in the Hawking Excitation, while Leonard & Raj watched in glee.

Leonard and his friends have put down Shamy countless times as well.

 

Face it your criticism on Sheldon in this area is lacking in nuance.

[No Regrets]

1 hour ago, jenafan said:

You noticed, I used the word seem.   I am of the opinion, that outside of the wedding and lack of honeymoon, that Lenny have had some of their best moments together this Season.   The naughty carrot was the best I have ever seen in Leonard and reminded me why he and Penny really are the perfect match for each other.   However, this seems to go unnoticed because of the frustration from fans over all the Shamy attention and that after eight years, Shamy's initial sex scene appears as if it may actually outshine Lenny's wedding or any intimate scene they have ever had together on screen.    This is even more shocking given how disfunctionally one-sided Shamy's relationship has been compared to the (8) years of mutual trials and triumphs Lenny have been through.

I can only speak for myself, but in terms of quality I've been quite happy with the way they've written Leonard and Penny this season. Their conversation at the end of 9x02 is one of my top 5 Lenny moments of all time. Leonard having a drunken kiss with someone else wasn't about him wanting someone else, or heck, even being attracted to someone else, it was about him sabotaging his own happiness and it turns out, Penny has been doing the same thing. That scene was about both of them admitting that they're shit scared of losing each other, and I thought that was some of the most honest and real dialogue I've ever seen on this show. They've been acting like real partners this season, completely in tune and just absolutely comfortable with one another. Would I like to see more scenes between them? Of course. But in the end it's quality over quantity for me. And even though the Shamy sex scene sounds incredibly sweet, I think whether or not it outshines other scenes on the show is very subjective. If you're a die hard Shamy fan, it probably will outshine every other scene for you. But as someone who likes Shamy but ships Lenny hardcore, no scene will ever rival, say, the first time Penny says "I love you" to Leonard, or him buying her a car, or her lovingly telling him that sometimes she forgets how smart he is. It's all about preference in the end.

P.S.: I'm a female. 

Edited November 26, 2015 by No Regrets

[3ku11]

I guess as a male i ship Lenny. As i can relate to the nerdy guy and hot girl more. Its just your relation to things really. Lennys unique in the fact The Hot girl.fell for the nerdy guy too. I think their whole thing is they are scared. Hence sabotage in the past. But they seem to be in the place they were meant to be now. And i agree its okay to have opposing opinions, doesent make it fact. I dont dislike Shamy, ive enjoyed most their scenes. But as everyones universe and experience is shaped differently. Just not my preference. Stuff like Lime Kiss, Pennys ily, Lenny engagement scene etc. Well always take more stock for me. I just cant forget "sometimes i forgot how smart you are" my fav scene to this day in the series. I agree its all preferences. 

[jenafan]

5 hours ago, No Regrets said:

I can only speak for myself, but in terms of quality I've been quite happy with the way they've written Leonard and Penny this season. Their conversation at the end of 9x02 is one of my top 5 Lenny moments of all time. Leonard having a drunken kiss with someone else wasn't about him wanting someone else, or heck, even being attracted to someone else, it was about him sabotaging his own happiness and it turns out, Penny has been doing the same thing. That scene was about both of them admitting that they're shit scared of losing each other, and I thought that was some of the most honest and real dialogue I've ever seen on this show. They've been acting like real partners this season, completely in tune and just absolutely comfortable with one another. Would I like to see more scenes between them? Of course. But in the end it's quality over quantity for me. And even though the Shamy sex scene sounds incredibly sweet, I think whether or not it outshines other scenes on the show is very subjective. If you're a die hard Shamy fan, it probably will outshine every other scene for you. But as someone who likes Shamy but ships Lenny hardcore, no scene will ever rival, say, the first time Penny says "I love you" to Leonard, or him buying her a car, or her lovingly telling him that sometimes she forgets how smart he is. It's all about preference in the end.

P.S.: I'm a female. 

I love your positive attitude, so much.   Like you, I think Lenny have had some huge milestones this Season and have had some very sweet scenes together in the past as well.    I am a diehard Shamy fan, but when I go back and re-watch the Aquarium episode, it's to see Lenny's cute little spat, not Shamy's rekindling of friendship, because the former makes me happier at this time.

I have a tendency to try to generalize for others to try to explain why there is so much meanness going on amongst some of the members.  I enjoy reading other's takes as you so willing opened up in your post.   At first I thought the Leonard's kiss with Mandy was so OOC, but like the Shamy breakup, as future episodes aired, it all began to make sense to me.    I agree, it was a form of sabotage.

Leonard has a low self-esteem, but he has always been a ladies man.   The show has mentioned Penny having multiple partners, but on screen, Leonard has been shown to have a lot more women lining up to have a relationship/sex with him.   Clearly others are attracted to him.   Take a man away from the woman he loves for several months, put a few beers in his hand, and an attractive woman at his side, and combine it with thoughts of unworthiness for the woman back at home, and a man could be tempted to do stupid things.    

The fact he didn't tell Penny for two years shows his level of regret, and the fact he told her before the wedding shows not only that he wanted to come clean, but that that in some small way, he was testing Penny to see if she would indeed walk away and confirm his fears true, that he doesn't deserver her.

In the end, I am glad they worked it out and both realized their part in sabotaging their marriage, first in stalling to get there and then in ruining it once they did.    Like Shamy, we've gotten a stronger Lenny this Season because of it.    I just wish they had had a better wedding, but perhaps if they had, it would have made them not spending their wedding night together even worse.     The least the writers could have done for the Lennys was to have shown them in bed.   Give the viewers a scene of them in each others arms, having finally consummated the marriage with the Lenny passion we all know so well, and Leonard having to grab his inhaler afterward with both smiling happily satisfied like Cheshire cats.

Edited November 26, 2015 by jenafan

[jenafan]

4 hours ago, 3ku11 said:

I guess as a male i ship Lenny. As i can relate to the nerdy guy and hot girl more. Its just your relation to things really. Lennys unique in the fact The Hot girl.fell for the nerdy guy too. I think their whole thing is they are scared. Hence sabotage in the past. But they seem to be in the place they were meant to be now. And i agree its okay to have opposing opinions, doesent make it fact. I dont dislike Shamy, ive enjoyed most their scenes. But as everyones universe and experience is shaped differently. Just not my preference. Stuff like Lime Kiss, Pennys ily, Lenny engagement scene etc. Well always take more stock for me. I just cant forget "sometimes i forgot how smart you are" my fav scene to this day in the series. I agree its all preferences. 

Now this is what I am talking about.   As a woman, it's difficult for me to understand the fascination with Lenny.   To me they are just the same ordinary couple I see walking down the street every day.   It's nice to get the POV of the opposite sex.     I get the nerd gets the hot girl thing, but I just don't really see it all that uncommon.    What I enjoy about them is their passion, like you, the lime kiss, the 9 minutes in the bedroom and then debating about it at the vet while contemplating Thai food for dinner, the dirty canvas, the Xmas kiss where she gives herself to Leonard as a present, Penny out of the blue telling him she loves him, Leonard giving her the car, their going to the market together and getting attacked by a goat...

What rubs me wrong about the relationship is the way Penny sometimes bullies and talks down about and to Leonard.   Penny has her own flaws where her treatment of Leonard could use some improvement, but Leonard knows these things and knows how to handle it.   It not just about a pretty girl and a nerd, it's about a strong-willed independent woman paired up with a man of low self-esteem who struggles to stand up for himself but is learning it is safe to do so with Penny because she's not going anywhere.   In S9, we've seen Lenny working together more.   Leonard is expressing himself more, and Penny is allowing him to and reacting to a man that she has no doubt loves her and is not going to walk away.   That's what I find appealing about this ship.

Edited November 26, 2015 by jenafan

[djsurrey]

Either way guys and girls in relationships are part of most sitcoms. For me TBBT uniqueness is in the extent that four of the original five characters participate in their science and technology and nerd passion and the related cultural references. I'd be watching it regardless if there had ever been lenny and shamy. Of course that is hypothetical and TBBT probably would not still be on the air without them so I'm happy they are around.

Edit

I should have also said it is also unique to have a cast member who has a real Ph.D. in any science. Beyond that cast and crew from TBBT have contributed to a fund which gives financial aid to STEM students. It has even been reported  that TBBT has helped promote STEM education.

Edited November 27, 2015 by djsurrey

[No Regrets]

5 hours ago, jenafan said:

Now this is what I am talking about.   As a woman, it's difficult for me to understand the fascination with Lenny.   To me they are just the same ordinary couple I see walking down the street every day.  

It's so funny to me how different people see things, because Lenny being an ordinary couple is the thing I love about them the most. They don't have this fairy tale, over-the-top romance. That's why it's so easy to relate to them. That's why their relationship seems so real to me. They're so flawed and had to fight hard to get to where they are now.

I enjoy Shamy very much, too, because they're such a strange couple and that's also very entertaining. I just can't relate to them very much most of the time and that's okay. But I think it's great that everyone sees things so differently and finds so many aspects to enjoy for different reasons. It'd be so boring if we all enjoyed the same things.

And just in case I haven't already said so, jena, you're one of my favorite people on here. 

[3ku11]

I agree I have always liked Lenny above all, because of the fact they are not some over the top, fairytale trope you see in pop culture. They are a very real, down to earth relationship. Who have been so realistically depicted over the course of 9 years. Their is also something extraordinary about them too. As in the fact the combination of street smart and book smart is so compelling for me anyway. The way Penny bullied Leonard almost in the past, had to do with her background and up bringing. She would almost self sabotage her relationship with Leonard, because she didn't want to get hurt. What has changed though, is they have been both honest about their fears now. I also find them unique in how they are defying socieites conventions and rules, they are such an unlikely match up. But the fact they make something so ridiculous work, is almost like a middle finger to society. As for Shamy I see it as the kid who grabs the girls pony tail in pre school, because he is over compensating that he likes her (Maybe that's just me who did that LOL). They have always been almost on the opposite end of the spectrum to Lenny. As in they are both virgins, and I See the appeal that people ship them, as they are each others first. But I also get urked by their lack of emotional maturity. So in terms of preferences. Although Penny has had a lot of partners lol. And Leonard has 3 or 4. The fact in the most  unlikely way, they meet each other in 1x01. Where as other wise, Penny woulden't dream of being Friends with Leonard, Sheldon, Howard, Raj e.t.c. To me has always been the charm of this show. Which was kinda established in Dead Hooker S2, when Alicia kinda used the guys. Where as Penny never did that, she became one of the guys almost. But as a guy I am just saying I can relate to Lenny's story more, doesn't mean they are a better couple because that's just stupid haha.

[Carlos]

15 hours ago, meka3000 said:

1.) It's not, but nothing you mentioned PROVES Leonard's character is not capable of keeping secrets from Penny.

2.) Yes the snowflake is special, THAT STILL DOESN'T PROVE that the love he has for Penny makes him invincible to all forms of temptation.

 

You just don't get it, do you? I know you're pre-law or an attorney/paralegal. Whatever, I really don't care. Just for a moment try and realize where you are. This is not a court of law, and as such there is no need/ possibility to prove anything. If you did that perhaps it would help you not to capitalize the most stupid part of you post. Also when you try and rebut a post of mine don't oppose an argument I haven't made.  Nowhere in my post did I say the word "prove"  or "invincible", did I? No, so perhaps it'd be great if you were more accurate in the future.

[3ku11]

No one said Leonard is incapable of keeping secrets from Penny. But honey I cheated on my exams in highschool is one thing compared to I kissed a girl two years ago, are two very different things. Of course Leonard is capable of keeping secrets, or not he is human after all. But keeping a huge secret that long is the real difference here. It's the extremities not the act. And it's not that he is invincible to temptation. OF course he isin't. As proved when he cheated on Priya. But he usualy has such a guilty conscious. I am sorry but its just my opinion for Leonard to keep quiet for two years, is very OOC. But that's just me, moving on its in the past now haha.

[meka3000]

2 hours ago, Carlos said:

Nowhere in my post did I say the word "prove"  or "invincible", did I? No, so perhaps it'd be great if you were more accurate in the future.

Doesn't matter, by you declaring that it was OOC for Leonard to cheat on Penny UNDER SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES your implying IMO that he could never make that kind of moral mistake EVER.  I don't believe we as human beings are monolithic, I believe we are constantly fluid from birth to death.

I'm not speaking as a student studying the law.  I'm speaking as a person who realizes that people IN REAL LIFE are capable of making mistakes you never thought possible.  For most of my life I used to see my youngest brother as a goody two shoes who usually did what he was told, and would never break the law.  So I was flabbergasted when he participated in stealing high school computer lab equipment and helped sell it.  But in hindsight I can make sense of it now, because he had lost his job and our family was going through financial woes during the holidays.  It didn't and still doesn't make it right, but I could understand the circumstances behind WHY he did it, BECAUSE OF THE CONTEXT.  Today he's never done something like it again, and is grateful that he didn't lose his scholarship.  He stayed out of jail, BECAUSE he ratted out the accomplices in the burglary.

My point is I believe we as human beings CAN BE capable of doing things we would normally be ashamed of.  But SOMETIMES it depends on the context.

Same way in how Leonard gave in to sex with a drunk Penny in s3's finale.  Under normal circumstances I wouldn't buy him doing that with a drunk Penny.  But the context won me over in how he was still missing her after the break up, and she came to his door and explained IN VIVID DETAIL how he ruined dumb guys for her.  After she dragged him back for sex in his bedroom and after what she was able to vividly explain to him, I absolutely buy that he misread that situation as him thinking they were getting back together, and that he didn't see it as him taking advantage of her.

But I digress, I absolutely buy that Leonard with a big head, drunk, and being away from penny for 4 months, long enough that she would be on his mind less during that time, as opposed to when she is in his proximity so he would be reminded of her easier at home.

With all those things above, it's not hard for me to buy that Mandy (also drunk), would come on to him WHILE his inhibitions were loosened and that he temporarily gave in to what happened.

I could also buy that Howard likely talked him into believing its not a big enough deal to say anything more about it to Penny; and that he most likely believed him; UNTIL he would get cold feet in season 8's finale and subconsciously wanted something to stop the wedding IN CASE he might be wrong about being worthy of her after her making more money than him in a fast amount of time reminded him of his mother emasculating his father.  While consciously he probably felt Penny deserved to know the secret before getting married.  Either way, he probably felt Penny would either still go forward while potentially mad; or postpone doing the wedding till a later time.  Either way the secret would be revealed.

Yes it's a complicated situation, but complicated situations on tv don't bother me too much after all the serial tv I have watched.  Yes some of it requires VIEWERS doing a little thinking.  I don't know about you but I like to exercise my gray matter.

[Carlos]

17 minutes ago, meka3000 said:

Doesn't matter, by you declaring that it was OOC for Leonard to cheat on Penny UNDER SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES your implying IMO that he could never make that kind of moral mistake EVER.  I don't believe we as human beings are monolithic, I believe we are constantly fluid from birth to death.

I'm not speaking as a student studying the law.  I'm speaking as a person who realizes that people IN REAL LIFE are capable of making mistakes you never thought possible.  For most of my life I used to see my youngest brother as a goody two shoes who usually did what he was told, and would never break the law.  So I was flabbergasted when he participated in stealing high school computer lab equipment and helped sell it.  But in hindsight I can make sense of it now, because he had lost his job and our family was going through financial woes during the holidays.  It didn't and still doesn't make it right, but I could understand the circumstances behind WHY he did it, BECAUSE OF THE CONTEXT.  Today he's never done something like it again, and is grateful that he didn't lose his scholarship.  He stayed out of jail, BECAUSE he ratted out the accomplices in the burglary.

My point is I believe we as human beings CAN BE capable of doing things we would normally be ashamed of.  But SOMETIMES it depends on the context.

Same way in how Leonard gave in to sex with a drunk Penny in s3's finale.  Under normal circumstances I wouldn't buy him doing that with a drunk Penny.  But the context won me over in how he was still missing her after the break up, and she came to his door and explained IN VIVID DETAIL how he ruined dumb guys for her.  After she dragged him back for sex in his bedroom and after what she was able to vividly explain to him, I absolutely buy that he misread that situation as him thinking they were getting back together, and that he didn't see it as him taking advantage of her.

But I digress, I absolutely buy that Leonard with a big head, drunk, and being away from penny for 4 months, long enough that she would be on his mind less during that time, as opposed to when she is in his proximity so he would be reminded of her easier at home.

With all those things above, it's not hard for me to buy that Mandy (also drunk), would come on to him WHILE his inhibitions were loosened and that he temporarily gave in to what happened.

I could also buy that Howard likely talked him into believing its not a big enough deal to say anything more about it to Penny; and that he most likely believed him; UNTIL he would get cold feet in season 8's finale and subconsciously wanted something to stop the wedding IN CASE he might be wrong about being worthy of her after her making more money than him in a fast amount of time reminded him of his mother emasculating his father.  While consciously he probably felt Penny deserved to know the secret before getting married.  Either way, he probably felt Penny would either still go forward while potentially mad; or postpone doing the wedding till a later time.  Either way the secret would be revealed.

Yes it's a complicated situation, but complicated situations on tv don't bother me too much after all the serial tv I have watched.  Yes some of it requires VIEWERS doing a little thinking.  I don't know about you but I like to exercise my gray matter.

I still don't buy it, the kiss, I mean. I hate to say it, but you're starting to win me over with your explanation of why he kept it a secret from Penny for that long. I want to thank you for taking the time to write the post I'm quoting because it helps me to see why YOU think the way you do. Your post makes a whole lot of sense, actually. That being said I think you're giving the writers too much credit. Of course no one can know for sure, but I would lean towards believing they just thought of "The North Sea Trip Kiss" for that episode.

[djsurrey]

2 hours ago, meka3000 said:

Doesn't matter, by you declaring that it was OOC for Leonard to cheat on Penny UNDER SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES your implying IMO that he could never make that kind of moral mistake EVER.  I don't believe we as human beings are monolithic, I believe we are constantly fluid from birth to death.

I'm not speaking as a student studying the law.  I'm speaking as a person who realizes that people IN REAL LIFE are capable of making mistakes you never thought possible.  For most of ...[snip]

Yes it's a complicated situation, but complicated situations on tv don't bother me too much after all the serial tv I have watched.  Yes some of it requires VIEWERS doing a little thinking.  I don't know about you but I like to exercise my gray matter.

I really don't think I had to think all that hard to come up with similar point of view.

[Einstein Von Brainstorm]

On 26 November 2015 01:05:46, meka3000 said:

-I saw it as them replacing the wedding that was a joke in Las Vegas, with the wedding that was for love.  Just another step in erasing that past mistake even more.  But that's just how I viewed it.

I guess that is one way to look at it but as another poster said 'she didn't think the wedding to Zach was real' - and the first place she thought of marrying the love of her life was a place where she once had a joke wedding? That will always suck to me.

I guess that is the fun of this forum, I see things on the show one way, then I read an opinion on here that changes it for me completely. Sometimes that is in a negative way like with the Lenny wedding though  

The thing I love about the couples on this show is that they are all a hot mess! They are all dysfunctional, which makes them very real to me and in season 9 (so far) we've seen:
The inexperienced couple have their first real fight, reconciliation and intimate experiences. 
The newlyweds struggle at first and then start to find their feet together
The experienced married couple starting to think about becoming a family

Looking forward to what comes our way next!
Hopefully there will be no more negative hard for me to watch stuff! 

[3ku11]

However you interpret it. It was still poor form to have Lenny get married, where Penny once had a joke wedding, or a wedding she thought was fake. I get erasing the past logic. But in reality they still got married in a place where she had a "mock" wedding. Going their and saying history has been erased yay!! In my personal opinion, they could erase history and not rub it in Leonard's face, but that is just me. The only reason they brought up Leonard was cheating, was as per usual self sabotage. So original. Once again this is a my opinion, doesn't make it fact, just how I see things.  But I agree all couples are a hot mess. But it is what makes it so grounded.  

[Einstein Von Brainstorm]

On 26 November 2015 01:38:54, Carlos said:

Everything you quoted is accurate. I, however, disagree with you . For me what Leonard did in the North Sea was completely OOC. Why? Because he was doing it to Penny? When it comes to Penny, up to that point in the series he had always acted differently. While he might have been in love with Priya, Penny was always the love of his life, and he held himself to a higher standard when it came to her. Also I find it ludicrous that he waited two years to tell her. IMO it is because it took two years for the writers to pull it out of their asses. I know Mekka disagrees with me since he finds it plausible that Leonard waited two years to tell Penny. I don't., but that's just me.

I agree that the writers pulled it out of their asses to create a cliff hanger but it didn't seem out of character for Leonard - who lied to Raj about sleeping with his sister for a long time, lied to Howard about hooking up with Stephanie, it was his idea to lie to Sheldon about the can opener in the Arctic and recently we saw him sneaking around reading Penny's journal behind her back. He has a long history of lying, especially when it comes to women.

The quote about Pryia I posted above, the one where he says he really loves her and thinks that they could get married one day and then asks how to get away with cheating on her? That is part of who he is and that will forever colour his character, regardless of how good a man he is trying to be for his wife now. Howard will always be capable of being a little bit creepy, Raj will always be a little insecure, Sheldon will always be big headed and Leonard will always be a little bit sneaky.

[Tonstar17]

On 26 November 2015 01:38:54, Carlos said: Everything you quoted is accurate. I, however, disagree with you . For me what Leonard did in the North Sea was completely OOC. Why? Because he was doing it to Penny? When it comes to Penny, up to that point in the series he had always acted differently. While he might have been in love with Priya, Penny was always the love of his life, and he held himself to a higher standard when it came to her. Also I find it ludicrous that he waited two years to tell her. IMO it is because it took two years for the writers to pull it out of their asses. I know Mekka disagrees with me since he finds it plausible that Leonard waited two years to tell Penny. I don't., but that's just me.

I agree that the writers pulled it out of their asses to create a cliff hanger but it didn't seem out of character for Leonard - who lied to Raj about sleeping with his sister for a long time, lied to Howard about hooking up with Stephanie, it was his idea to lie to Sheldon about the can opener in the Arctic and recently we saw him sneaking around reading Penny's journal behind her back. He has a long history of lying, especially when it comes to women.

The quote about Pryia I posted above, the one where he says he really loves her and thinks that they could get married one day and then asks how to get away with cheating on her? That is part of who he is and that will forever colour his character, regardless of how good a man he is trying to be for his wife now. Howard will always be capable of being a little bit creepy, Raj will always be a little insecure, Sheldon will always be big headed and Leonard will always be a little bit sneaky.

Sorry Leonard did not lie to Howard, Raj, Penny or Sheldon. He just kept it from them. Not telling someone something that they dont know about and telling them at a later day is not lying. Last time I checked lying is when someone ask you something and you deny it even though it's true. That's lying.

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

[ShLe94]

Nora and Jena, I love your respectful and insightful posts about the two main couples! I just wanted to put my two cents in, more or less reformulating what I wrote a few days ago in the 'Lenny & Shamy - The Neutral Zone' thread, because I think it fits with the subject pretty well.

To quote Sheldon from 9x08, I guess "I am a bit of a unicorn" because I 'ship' them both LOL I'll try to explain why: I kinda see them as two sides of the same coin. Lenny are the more spontaneous and enthusiastic one, Shamy are the more reasonable and logical one. But it seems to me that deep love is there for them both. I fell in love with the idea of Leonard and Penny falling in love since their very first scenes of season 1 and I've never give up on them, even in their darkest times! I love them because, to quote Stuart from 7x18, "I feel like they make each other better. Penny brought Leonard out of his shell. Seems like Leonard makes Penny think more deeply about the world. Together they make one awesome person". I couldn't have said it better! Lenny are at their best when they are together. They still have a dysfunctional relationship sometimes. But they've always overcome everything together and grown stronger. Their relationship seems so real to me!   Sheldon and Amy were a surprise for me. I've always had mixed feelings about Sheldon: he's extremely annoying and obnoxious but I've often had a feeling that, to quote Penny from 3x08, "it’s like that movie Wall-E at the end. He’s so full of love, and he can save a plant and get fat people out of the floaty chairs" LOL And my feeling became a certainty when Amy came along! Other than the fact that she's my favorite character because I relate to her in so many ways (and IMO Mayim was a great addition to the cast), I enjoy her character because she's witty, patient and one of the few who managed - and still do - to stand up to Sheldon and  bring out the best in him at the same time... They've found out, even hurting each other, that world is a better place with the other in it. It seems they finally are on the same page now, emotionally and physically (I very much hope so)! 

These two couples are not perfect at all. But they try their best together. That's why I love them so much!!

P.S.: Sorry for the endless rant, going back to hide in a corner now - still wearing my rose-colored glasses, of course  

[Strawberry PopTart Fan]

5 hours ago, Einstein Von Brainstorm said:

I agree that the writers pulled it out of their asses to create a cliff hanger but it didn't seem out of character for Leonard - who lied to Raj about sleeping with his sister for a long time, lied to Howard about hooking up with Stephanie, it was his idea to lie to Sheldon about the can opener in the Arctic and recently we saw him sneaking around reading Penny's journal behind her back. He has a long history of lying, especially when it comes to women.

The quote about Pryia I posted above, the one where he says he really loves her and thinks that they could get married one day and then asks how to get away with cheating on her? That is part of who he is and that will forever colour his character, regardless of how good a man he is trying to be for his wife now. Howard will always be capable of being a little bit creepy, Raj will always be a little insecure, Sheldon will always be big headed and Leonard will always be a little bit sneaky.

All of the characters, except for maybe Sheldon, have lied over the years. I'm not sure if Leonard has cornered the market on lying  or not but I don't think it defines him. None of them are saints.  Just in the Thanksgiving episode Howard said something like "If you're not going to back me up when I'm lying, why are we married? Penny has lied to Leonard, Bernie has lied to Howard, Raj has lied to he parents and on and on.  But I agree with Tonstar. Leonard didn't lie about the kiss. Nor did he reveal it. I think he was able to push it somewhere in the back of his mind and move on until Penny talked about no surprises and no regrets. He didn't want to go into the marriage with that omission of total honesty.   After meeting Mandy, I think it's reasonable to believe that she was the aggressor in the kissing incident. When Leonard told her he wanted to talk about what happened on the boat she said, "Oh. Did I sleep with you too?" So, Mandy was having a good old time for herself with some of the guys on the boat.  We don't know how long the incident with Leonard lasted but it seems that there was no forethought or planning ahead for it on Leonard's part. He was drunk and I believe Mandy came on to him. At some point, he stopped it. He also stopped it with Alice. So, it's easy to be faithful if one has never been tempted to stray. Leonard was tempted and he pulled back twice because he didn't want to be unfaithful to Pryia or Penny. Is he completely blameless? No, he should have fessed up to Penny when he got home and assured her then and there that it meant nothing to him and taken his lumps.  I do think the circumstances need to be considered when passing judgment. I would much rather there was no boat kiss. I still hate that the writers felt the need for it, but Leonard and Penny have moved on, so I guess I can too.

 

The second issue that's really upsets people is the Vegas wedding. I think an impulsive, "let's do it now" Penny  suggested Vegas because it's close to California and you can get married fast there with very little red tape.  Obviously neither she or Leonard gave a thought to the Zach fiasco. Leonard could have objected if it bothered him and he didn't. It may be considered "tacky" but lots of people do it and lots of people love Vegas and some of the venues are beautiful. Penny is clearly in the Vegas-lovers group. Not trying to talk anyone out of hating the idea. I just didn't see it as disrespectful to the couple that I adore. I think Leonard would have married Penny in a barn if that's what she wanted. I'm just really glad they are married and happy. 

[Einstein Von Brainstorm]

4 hours ago, Strawberry PopTart Fan said:

All of the characters, except for maybe Sheldon, have lied over the years. I'm not sure if Leonard has cornered the market on lying  or not but I don't think it defines him. None of them are saints.  Just in the Thanksgiving episode Howard said something like "If you're not going to back me up when I'm lying, why are we married? Penny has lied to Leonard, Bernie has lied to Howard, Raj has lied to he parents and on and on.  But I agree with Tonstar. Leonard didn't lie about the kiss. Nor did he reveal it. I think he was able to push it somewhere in the back of his mind and move on until Penny talked about no surprises and no regrets. He didn't want to go into the marriage with that omission of total honesty.   After meeting Mandy, I think it's reasonable to believe that she was the aggressor in the kissing incident. When Leonard told her he wanted to talk about what happened on the boat she said, "Oh. Did I sleep with you too?" So, Mandy was having a good old time for herself with some of the guys on the boat.  We don't know how long the incident with Leonard lasted but it seems that there was no forethought or planning ahead for it on Leonard's part. He was drunk and I believe Mandy came on to him. At some point, he stopped it. He also stopped it with Alice. So, it's easy to be faithful if one has never been tempted to stray. Leonard was tempted and he pulled back twice because he didn't want to be unfaithful to Pryia or Penny. Is he completely blameless? No, he should have fessed up to Penny when he got home and assured her then and there that it meant nothing to him and taken his lumps.  I do think the circumstances need to be considered when passing judgment. I would much rather there was no boat kiss. I still hate that the writers felt the need for it, but Leonard and Penny have moved on, so I guess I can too.

I guess it depends on your views on the difference between actively lying and keeping something important from a person, if this was real life and your significant other had, had a make out session with someone on a work trip and kept it from you, would you say "ok then, at least it wasn't lying!" no, you wouldn't because both 'lying' and 'keeping things' from partners are dishonest betrayals of trust.

Sheldon kept the DVD thing from Leonard for a long time! (I can't remember how long off the top of my head but I believe the word years was used)  so yeah he is also capable of lying imo if he believes that the reasoning behind it is important!

You said "I'm not sure if Leonard has cornered the market on lying" - I didn't mean to imply that he had, just that he has a history of it which is why I thought his actions on the North Sea were indeed in character for him.

Quote

The second issue that's really upsets people is the Vegas wedding. I think an impulsive, "let's do it now" Penny  suggested Vegas because it's close to California and you can get married fast there with very little red tape.  Obviously neither she or Leonard gave a thought to the Zach fiasco. Leonard could have objected if it bothered him and he didn't. It may be considered "tacky" but lots of people do it and lots of people love Vegas and some of the venues are beautiful. Penny is clearly in the Vegas-lovers group. Not trying to talk anyone out of hating the idea. I just didn't see it as disrespectful to the couple that I adore. I think Leonard would have married Penny in a barn if that's what she wanted. I'm just really glad they are married and happy. 

I would actually prefer it if you could talk me out of hating it lol! I wanted to see the relationship that has been teased since episode one culminate in a beautiful moment, not a rushed ceremony in a place that the bride had already got married once before thinking that it was a joke!

The vows were beautiful, the fact that they wanted it to be just the two of them was lovely and I could of bought it completely if I hadn't read that comment on here about Zach  that point aside for a moment their wedding night was then spent fighting and it just felt like a huge disservice to the characters. Yes they are a mess, that is part of why I love them BUT I just thought that they deserved something nice for their special day!

Edited November 27, 2015 by Einstein Von Brainstorm

[Strawberry PopTart Fan]

I don't think they are a mess and I think they got something better than a nice wedding the next day when they talked.  They faced their fears and sealed the deal. They each got the other to love and continue on life's  journey together .Agree to disagree on how we look at thingsWe all see something different as we rotate the kaleidoscope. And we're both happy they are together!

[meka3000]

11 hours ago, Tonstar17 said:

Sorry Leonard did not lie to Howard, Raj, Penny or Sheldon. He just kept it from them. Not telling someone something that they dont know about and telling them at a later day is not lying. Last time I checked lying is when someone ask you something and you deny it even though it's true. That's lying.

Choosing to lie by omission is still lying.

[Chrismo]

This is why IMO the show needs to end after season 10. They could of easily put off the wedding to February sweeps. Had episodes involving a storyline leading up to the wedding in regards to guestlists, being introduced to Penny's family and whatever. Even if they decided to eventually get married similarly to what ended up happening there was a lot of material that could of came out of it. Instead you had a Leonard kissing another women, a quickie wedding and everything resolved in two episodes. Similarly with Shamy the break up storyline, which was good or bad depending on your POV, lasted 9 episodes and took over much of the early season ended up get resolved(surprise, surprise) and coitus happened in the next episode. What is left is living arrangements and a Shamy wedding. Science storylines of late have been lacking and I would be surprised if there is a lot of them coming. Howdette isn't much of a storyline and Raj/Emily may have more of a storyline coming but wouldn't to me justify going past 10 seasons.

[Strawberry PopTart Fan]

1 hour ago, meka3000 said:

Choosing to lie by omission is still lying.

Not revealing something may  be wrong and Leonard may have been wrong not telling,  but it's not lying. My dictionary (Webster's) says (to) lie is to make a false statement and (a)lie is an untrue statement. Leonard made no statement. We don't know what Leonard was thinking. He may not have told Penny about the kiss because he was afraid she would leave him. Or, he may not have told her because he loves her and didn't want to hurt her. Or, both reasons which is what I prefer to think.  Catholics would consider lying a sin of commission and not doing something you should do or not revealing something which should be revealed a sin of omission. Whether or not Leonard needed to reveal the kiss is an opinion which one holds based upon their interpretation and evaluation of the kissing situation and I think it's okay for people to evaluate the situation differently. In the end, Leonard decided that he should tell Penny. before they got married.He felt guilty, even though the kiss meant nothing to him or Mandy. Penny seems okay with it and I truly hope it doesn't rear it's ugly head again-ever.

[djsurrey]

In this case I think it was more important for Leonard to resolve to not do the same thing again and possibly to avoid situations where he knows he might fail. Telling Penny two years after the fact did nothing but create upset. If it was bothering Leonard still he should have got some counselling.

I believe on the show Penny asked do I need to be worried?