[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9

[meka3000]

1 hour ago, Strawberry PopTart Fan said:

Not revealing something may  be wrong and Leonard may have been wrong not telling,  but it's not lying. My dictionary (Webster's) says (to) lie is to make a false statement and (a)lie is an untrue statement. Leonard made no statement.

Merriam-Webster's here describes lie as this:

Definition of LIE:

intransitive verb

1:  to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive

2:  to create a false or misleading impression

From the moment Leonard did not tell Penny about an act he was sure was going to upset her, he was creating a false impression of himself to Penny.

Quote

Whether or not Leonard needed to reveal the kiss is an opinion which one holds based upon their interpretation and evaluation of the kissing situation

I think it's safe to assume that Penny thought he should've revealed it, as she thought it was important.

Though I think elite-daily has my favorite interpretation on this matter:

Quote

Ultimately, I believe omission is the same as lying if you withhold something relevant that the other person needs to know.  If you are in a committed relationship and have cheated on your partner, but do not tell your partner, you are still lying to them. Relationships carry the expectations of fidelity and by omitting your indiscretion, you are in fact lying to your partner.

Edited November 28, 2015 by meka3000

[Carlos]

11 hours ago, Einstein Von Brainstorm said:

1) I agree that the writers pulled it out of their asses to create a cliff hanger but it didn't seem out of character for Leonard - who lied to Raj about sleeping with his sister for a long time, lied to Howard about hooking up with Stephanie, it was his idea to lie to Sheldon about the can opener in the Arctic and recently we saw him sneaking around reading Penny's journal behind her back. He has a long history of lying, especially when it comes to women.

2) The quote about Pryia I posted above, the one where he says he really loves her and thinks that they could get married one day and then asks how to get away with cheating on her? That is part of who he is and that will forever colour his character, regardless of how good a man he is trying to be for his wife now. Howard will always be capable of being a little bit creepy, Raj will always be a little insecure, Sheldon will always be big headed and Leonard will always be a little bit sneaky.

1) I think you're being too harsh with Leonard. While you can say that everything you mention is lying there are different degrees of lying and of importance. I also maintain that I didn't think he would have done that TO Penny.

2) In regards to this paragraph, so.. people don't evolve, change, improve themselves? Are they forever to be condemned by actions that occurred long time ago? Btw in Raj's and Sheldon's cases you are citing character traits , and in Leonard's and Howard's cases you based it on certain actions that, IMO don't define their characters 

[djsurrey]

No idea why anyone wants to talk about the kiss. They L/P have moved on already.

[Earnie]

22 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

No idea why anyone wants to talk about the kiss. They L/P have moved on already.

No idea they are  happy and married now they have moved on and so should we

[Einstein Von Brainstorm]

6 hours ago, Carlos said:

1) I think you're being too harsh with Leonard. While you can say that everything you mention is lying there are different degrees of lying and of importance. I also maintain that I didn't think he would have done that TO Penny.

2) In regards to this paragraph, so.. people don't evolve, change, improve themselves? Are they forever to be condemned by actions that occurred long time ago? Btw in Raj's and Sheldon's cases you are citing character traits , and in Leonard's and Howard's cases you based it on certain actions that, IMO don't define their characters 

1) I don't think I'm being harsh at all so we'll have to agree to disagree  as for the last part, he did do it to Penny though  when he started talking in the car I rolled my eyes and said "ugh not this again" ... then there were some swear words but I was not shocked by it.

2) Yes people can change and are not forever held to what they have done in the past so what happened with Pryia I guess could be written off as something he did when he was young? BUT the North Sea incident was two years ago, he only fessed up about it 6 and half months ago and he just got caught sneaking around behind Penny's back to read her journal.

I believe that sneakiness is a character trait of Leonard's, like when he enjoyed flirting with Alex and did not feel the need to tell Penny about it. They have shown him making attempts to be a better man for Penny but they keep coming back to him doing sneaky things! Clearly the writers think that is a part of his character too.

I've seen people complaining that Leonard and Penny don't have an 'arc' as such this season but now that they are happily married the big issue events for them story wise don't seem all that appealing at all!

They seem to like to play with this element of him and the commitment issues with Penny. Now that they are married presumably Penny's commitment issues are resolved which leaves Leonard's issues to rear their ugly head again or a 'maybe baby' storyline to keep them interesting as a couple?

If Season 9 Leonard and Penny is a choice between the cute little moments like the 'husband shaming' and big marital issues I know which I would choose! and then if Season 10 is gonna be the last one then we can see them getting a house and having smart and beautiful children  

[Tonstar17]

11 hours ago, Tonstar17 said: Sorry Leonard did not lie to Howard, Raj, Penny or Sheldon. He just kept it from them. Not telling someone something that they dont know about and telling them at a later day is not lying. Last time I checked lying is when someone ask you something and you deny it even though it's true. That's lying.

Choosing to lie by omission is still lying.

Oh okay I didn't know that keeping a secret as not to hurt someone is lying. Interesting. We all have secrets and are all a bunch of liars.

I learn new things on this forum everyday. I guess Sheldon lied and is still lying to Leonard for not telling him about Penny thinking about breaking up with him in S6.

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

[Stephen Hawking]

On 11/24/2015, 6:29:20, 3ku11 said:

S10 should be last.

I disagree.

I think there'll still be more stories to tell.

[5Mississippis]

On November 27, 2015 7:02:38 AM, Einstein Von Brainstorm said:

I agree that the writers pulled it out of their asses to create a cliff hanger but it didn't seem out of character for Leonard - who lied to Raj about sleeping with his sister for a long time, lied to Howard about hooking up with Stephanie, it was his idea to lie to Sheldon about the can opener in the Arctic and recently we saw him sneaking around reading Penny's journal behind her back. He has a long history of lying, especially when it comes to women.

The quote about Pryia I posted above, the one where he says he really loves her and thinks that they could get married one day and then asks how to get away with cheating on her? That is part of who he is and that will forever colour his character, regardless of how good a man he is trying to be for his wife now. Howard will always be capable of being a little bit creepy, Raj will always be a little insecure, Sheldon will always be big headed and Leonard will always be a little bit sneaky.

 

 

On November 27, 2015 7:02:38 AM, Einstein Von Brainstorm said:

 

 

I agree that the writers pulled it out of their asses to create a cliff hanger but it didn't seem out of character for Leonard - who lied to Raj about sleeping with his sister for a long time, lied to Howard about hooking up with Stephanie, it was his idea to lie to Sheldon about the can opener in the Arctic and recently we saw him sneaking around reading Penny's journal behind her back. He has a long history of lying, especially when it comes to women.

The quote about Pryia I posted above, the one where he says he really loves her and thinks that they could get married one day and then asks how to get away with cheating on her? That is part of who he is and that will forever colour his character, regardless of how good a man he is trying to be for his wife now. Howard will always be capable of being a little bit creepy, Raj will always be a little insecure, Sheldon will always be big headed and Leonard will always be a little bit sneaky.

~~~

I agree that the writers pulled it out of their asses to create a cliff hanger but it didn't seem out of character for Leonard - who lied to Raj about sleeping with his sister for a long time

When we, the viewing audience first met Priya it was in The Irish Pub Formulation. Within the first moments of meeting her, we find out that she can be sexually aggressive because it was Priya who grabbled Leonard in the hallway and started French kissing him. Leonard was just as startled by her actions as the audience was. Later in the episode, we learn that Leonard and Priya have had a previous sexual relationship five years earlier. You maintain that the Leonard lied to Raj about sleeping with his sister for a long time. Nope. Wrong. What Priya and Leonard did and shared as fully consenting legal-aged adults is absolutely none of Raj’s business. Ever. If however you are suggesting that Raj’s does have full investment in Priya’s sexual activities due to the Hindu Code of Manu, as Sheldon suggested, will I then offer that Priya clearly does not subscribe to them and neither does Raj, as aptly pointed out by Priya herself. So using an ancient behavioral code as a gauge is flagrantly hypocritical.

If any apology is owed in this Leonard and Priya scenario, Leonard should apologize to Howard for breaking the ‘pinky swear’ pledge that they made to one another.

LOL!

Yeah, right.

An absolutely beautiful, sexually aggressive throws herself at you and you say, ‘No. Sorry. I can’t. I just made a pinky swear with Howard.’ Yeah, right.

And, at this time, let’s reflect and ask ourselves this question, if it were reversed, if Priya threw herself not at Leonard but at Howard at the time of there first meeting, would Howard have honored the ‘pinky swear’ stipulation with Leonard?

I fully believe that Howard, being the totally honorable man that he was, would have soundly rejected Priya’s advances and fully honored his ‘pinky swear’ with Leonard.

PSYCH!

*Now I just want to add here that I am applying the descriptors throws and threw throughout this discussion to describe Priya’s sexual behavior. I don’t mean that to be taken as a judgment of her character or any sort of flaw. It is all supposition on my part because I am solely basing her sexually aggressive behavior on when we, the viewing audience, first met her. If she was that aggressive with Leonard when we first met her, it is easy for me to see her being a ‘Big Old 5’ in instigating the initial sexual encounter.

lied to Howard about hooking up with Stephanie

Nope. Wrong. In the very second scene with Stephanie that we, the viewing audience see, is Leonard and Stephanie kissing in the car. We know from their conversation, that Leonard had been extoling Howard’s virtues during their make out session:

Stephanie: I’m sorry. I totally interrupted you. What were you saying?

Leonard: Just that Howard’s a terrific guy. He has a great sense of humor, loves his mother, a lot. Some people say too much.

Which then leads to THE SALIENT issue – that Stephanie had ZERO interest in Howard and her only desire was to drive a car on Mars (a tactic that we later find out he used previously when Penny let it slip)

Leonard: Yeah, I’m loyal. You know, if you look at the big picture. Just out of curiosity, did he ever have a shot with you?

Stephanie: Are you insane? The guy was wearing an eye patch

Leonard: Then why did you …

Stephanie: He said that I could drive a car on Mars.

So again, just like in the Priya scenario described above, what Leonard and Stephanie do has absolutely nothing to do with Howard and they owe him nothing. That Stephanie was not returning his multiple calls SHOULD have been Howard’s Clue Number One. But instead of picking up the clues that the lady was not interested in him, Howard went all mental and possessive, seeing a whole lot more in the relationship (inviting all his family over to meet her, telling her to say that she’s half-Jewish) is a testament to his distorted working psychology at the time.

As for Leonard’s silence on the matter he was still very much pro-Howard. After one of Howard’s messages about his mother serving the brisket, he stopped the kissing and, referring to the brisket, said ‘it does melt in your mouth’. And if you remember correctly, Leonard WAS guilt ridden and even sought out Penny’s advice on the matter. 

Leonard: Doctor doctor. Surgical resident. Smart, pretty. Let me ask you something. If your friend thinks he’s dating someone, but he’s not because, in fact, you’re dating her, does that make you a bad person?

Penny: Well, that depends.

Leonard: On what?

Penny: Is that friend Wolowitz?

Leonard: Yeah.

Penny: Screw him. You’re fine.

Leonard: Are you sure?

Penny: Well, have you slept with her yet? You dog! Good for you.

Leonard: Does that change things?

Penny: No.

Leonard: So why’d you ask?

Penny: I’m nosy. See ya.

And even after Penny absolved him of any guilt, Leonard still showed up at Howard’s door to confess. But Stephanie got there first with her phone call.

it was his idea to lie to Sheldon about the can opener in the Arctic

My Pet Peeve! This incident is often misinterpreted by those that highly favor Sheldon, and frequently by Shenny's, to suggest that Leonard is a bad person, and did great damage to Sheldon. This is not true. So thank you so very much for bringing this up and the need to argue this. AGAIN.

Yes. Leonard did lie to Sheldon in Arctic.

TO SAVE SHELDON’S LIFE.

In your pursuit to color Leonard badly, you deliberately did not reference Sheldon’s very bad canon behavior. If three men (who are not crazy and whose mother’s never had them tested) wanted to kill Sheldon, I think that speaks volumes to how badly Sheldon behaved and how insufferable he must have been. And he wasn’t going to credit them for their part in the work only giving them an effusive footnote. Very, very unprofessional and very bad form on Sheldon’s part.

we saw him sneaking around reading Penny's journal behind her back.

Pffffffft. He wasn’t ‘sneaking around’. He inadvertently picked up her journal, and, not realizing what it was, read only that entry (that we know of). Until the writers tell us more, to claim that Leonard read more than one entry would be supposition on your part and most arguable.

He has a long history of lying, especially when it comes to women.

Disagree. See my counters to your statements above.

The quote about Pryia I posted above, the one where he says he really loves her and thinks that they could get married one day and then asks how to get away with cheating on her? That is part of who he is and that will forever colour his character, regardless of how good a man he is trying to be for his wife now.

To me, it’s evident that what Priya and Leonard shared WASN’T love.  Supposition on my part but, to me, it ‘feels’ like Leonard is trying to sanitize his remembered relationship with Priya to make it something more worthy than it actually was. If it truly was love, he wouldn’t have wanted to cheat on Priya. And clearly, whatever Leonard felt or presumed about their relationship wasn’t shared by Priya because she was already in the arms of Sanjay.

And because you brought up Alice indirectly, lets visit that situation. FWIW, he DID TRY to tell Alice about Priya (maybe not too strongly) ‘there were too many tongues in my mouth’ and feeling very guilty, he did go to Penny for advice. Now Penny’s advice was kind of ‘ping-pong-y’ IMO, kind of all over the place. But here at the MOST SALIENT part of this whole story, you are horribly cherry picking to deliberately paint Leonard very badly. Although Leonard said that he ‘wanted to be one of those guys’ – in his HEAD he wanted to be ‘player’ but in his HEART and CHARACTER wouldn’t let him. He could never be and never would be. Actions speak louder than words and that’s why he confessed to Alice.

Howard will always be capable of being a little bit creepy, Raj will always be a little insecure, Sheldon will always be big headed and Leonard will always be a little bit sneaky.

Wow.

Just wow.

Sheldon ‘will always be big headed’? Spoken like a true Sheldon Apologist.

Like when he:

Accused Penny of trading sexual favors for material gain?

Blackmailed Priya thereby making Leonard sign the ‘new and improved’ Roommate Agreement?

Tried to change Penny with Operant Conditioning?

Pet names for Amy: Gollum and/or Flaky.

Signed up for a mission to Mars without telling Amy?

Had a temper tantrum and fled for months when Leonard dared to address the living arrangements?

Was an absolutely horrible companion in the Arctic so that he friends wanted to kill him? And then not intending to credit his fellow scientists on the resultant paper?

And they are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head! You say ‘big headed’ to describe Sheldon. I’d describe him MUCH differently and not so benevolently.

 

Edited November 29, 2015 by 5Mississippis
Having trouble w/ quote and removed spaces, added adage.

[Stephen Hawking]

57 minutes ago, 5Mississippis said:

Leonard was just as startled by her actions as the audience was.

I don't think Leonard was particularly startled.

He only stopped kissing her, long enough to check they weren't being watched, after which he, enthusiastically dived back in.

1 hour ago, 5Mississippis said:

If three men (who are not crazy and whose mother’s never had them tested) wanted to kill Sheldon, I think that speaks volumes to how badly Sheldon behaved and how insufferable he must have been.

This does pose one question.

If Sheldon is that bad, that they actually want to kill him, why are they still friends with him?

[djsurrey]

Just a reminder. TBBT really is a light, funny and silly show.

All the characters have some flaws. Saints are not as funny.

[Stephen Hawking]

18 minutes ago, Mislav said:

I don't consider it to be cheating, mainly because it was just kissing and he came clean.

So, it's not cheating, if I make out with another girl, behind my girlfriend's back, provided I don't do any more than kiss, and tell my girlfriend afterwards  

[Tonstar17]

57 minutes ago, 5Mississippis said: Leonard was just as startled by her actions as the audience was.

I don't think Leonard was particularly startled.

He only stopped kissing her, long enough to check they weren't being watched, after which he, enthusiastically dived back in.

1 hour ago, 5Mississippis said: If three men (who are not crazy and whose mother’s never had them tested) wanted to kill Sheldon, I think that speaks volumes to how badly Sheldon behaved and how insufferable he must have been.

This does pose one question.

If Sheldon is that bad, that they actually want to kill him, why are they still friends with him?

They were in the Arctic circle and yes I get why they wanted to kill him. Usually they could just ignore him when he is being a pain and leave but they were stuck in the same cabin for 3 months and nowhere to run or get away from him. So yeah it's plausible

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

[Carlos]

2 hours ago, Stephen Hawking said:

I disagree.

I think there'll still be more stories to tell.

Only problem the stories keep on getting worse and worse, no to mention repetitious.

[Darcyfitz]

We spent Thanksgiving with some friends (a husband and wife) who used to be avid fans of the show, but haven't tuned in all season. Basically, they feel the show has lost some of it's magic; it's roots of comedy and science, and the husband feels especially that the relationships now dominate the show. They will still watch it on Demand, to catch up, but the wife asked me if what she'd read on social media about Sheldon and Amy was true. I answered yes, can you believe it? And she said she feels like the writers/director gave up such important spoilers because they knew man fans had flounced the show. It's one thing for fans to spoil us with taping reports, but when TPTB do it? She said it reeks of desperation. LOL~  Thoughts?

[djsurrey]

1 hour ago, Darcyfitz said:

We spent Thanksgiving with some friends (a husband and wife) who used to be avid fans of the show, but haven't tuned in all season. Basically, they feel the show has lost some of it's magic; it's roots of comedy and science, and the husband feels especially that the relationships now dominate the show. They will still watch it on Demand, to catch up, but the wife asked me if what she'd read on social media about Sheldon and Amy was true. I answered yes, can you believe it? And she said she feels like the writers/director gave up such important spoilers because they knew man fans had flounced the show. It's one thing for fans to spoil us with taping reports, but when TPTB do it? She said it reeks of desperation. LOL~  Thoughts?

Nothing you are saying her is anything new. I joined this forum 3 years ago and heard many of the same comments back then. The spoilers are just a hook. It is not a mystery drama; giving away spoilers does not actually spoil anything. People stay for the quirky fun and humour but TPTB can't please everyone. If I was not enjoying it I'd stop watching and I'd certainly stop coming on here. I think most people come on the forum if they would like more.

edit

Just to add when it comes to a sitcom with science, technology  and nerd references TBBT is still king. Rather it really is the one and only. 

Edited November 28, 2015 by djsurrey

[Mislav]

2 hours ago, 5Mississippis said:

 

 

On November 27, 2015 7:02:38 AM, Einstein Von Brainstorm said:

 

 

I agree that the writers pulled it out of their asses to create a cliff hanger but it didn't seem out of character for Leonard - who lied to Raj about sleeping with his sister for a long time, lied to Howard about hooking up with Stephanie, it was his idea to lie to Sheldon about the can opener in the Arctic and recently we saw him sneaking around reading Penny's journal behind her back. He has a long history of lying, especially when it comes to women.

The quote about Pryia I posted above, the one where he says he really loves her and thinks that they could get married one day and then asks how to get away with cheating on her? That is part of who he is and that will forever colour his character, regardless of how good a man he is trying to be for his wife now. Howard will always be capable of being a little bit creepy, Raj will always be a little insecure, Sheldon will always be big headed and Leonard will always be a little bit sneaky.

~~~

I agree that the writers pulled it out of their asses to create a cliff hanger but it didn't seem out of character for Leonard - who lied to Raj about sleeping with his sister for a long time

When we, the viewing audience first met Priya it was in The Irish Pub Formulation. Within the first moments of meeting her, we find out that she can be sexually aggressive because it was Priya who grabbled Leonard in the hallway and started French kissing him. Leonard was just as startled by her actions as the audience was. Later in the episode, we learn that Leonard and Priya have had a previous sexual relationship five years earlier. You maintain that the Leonard lied to Raj about sleeping with his sister for a long time. Nope. Wrong. What Priya and Leonard did and shared as fully consenting legal-aged adults is absolutely none of Raj’s business. Ever. If however you are suggesting that Raj’s does have full investment in Priya’s sexual activities due to the Hindu Code of Manu, as Sheldon suggested, will I then offer that Priya clearly does not subscribe to them and neither does Raj, as aptly pointed out by Priya herself. So using an ancient behavioral code as a gauge is flagrantly hypocritical.

If any apology is owed in this Leonard and Priya scenario, Leonard should apologize to Howard for breaking the ‘pinky swear’ pledge that they made to one another.

LOL!

Yeah, right.

An absolutely beautiful, sexually aggressive throws herself at you and you say, ‘No. Sorry. I can’t. I just made a pinky swear with Howard.’ Yeah, right.

And, at this time, let’s reflect and ask ourselves this question, if it were reversed, if Priya threw herself not at Leonard but at Howard at the time of there first meeting, would Howard have honored the ‘pinky swear’ stipulation with Leonard?

I fully believe that Howard, being the totally honorable man that he was, would have soundly rejected Priya’s advances and fully honored his ‘pinky swear’ with Leonard.

PSYCH!

*Now I just want to add here that I am applying the descriptors throws and threw throughout this discussion to describe Priya’s sexual behavior. I don’t mean that to be taken as a judgment of her character or any sort of flaw. It is all supposition on my part because I am solely basing her sexually aggressive behavior on when we, the viewing audience, first met her. If she was that aggressive with Leonard when we first met her, it is easy for me to see her being a ‘Big Old 5’ in instigating the initial sexual encounter.

lied to Howard about hooking up with Stephanie

Nope. Wrong. In the very second scene with Stephanie that we, the viewing audience see, is Leonard and Stephanie kissing in the car. We know from their conversation, that Leonard had been extoling Howard’s virtues during their make out session:

Stephanie: I’m sorry. I totally interrupted you. What were you saying?

Leonard: Just that Howard’s a terrific guy. He has a great sense of humor, loves his mother, a lot. Some people say too much.

Which then leads to THE SALIENT issue – that Stephanie had ZERO interest in Howard and her only desire was to drive a car on Mars (a tactic that we later find out he used previously when Penny let it slip)

Leonard: Yeah, I’m loyal. You know, if you look at the big picture. Just out of curiosity, did he ever have a shot with you?

Stephanie: Are you insane? The guy was wearing an eye patch

Leonard: Then why did you …

Stephanie: He said that I could drive a car on Mars.

So again, just like in the Priya scenario described above, what Leonard and Stephanie do has absolutely nothing to do with Howard and they owe him nothing. That Stephanie was not returning his multiple calls SHOULD have been Howard’s Clue Number One. But instead of picking up the clues that the lady was not interested in him, Howard went all mental and possessive, seeing a whole lot more in the relationship (inviting all his family over to meet her, telling her to say that she’s half-Jewish) is a testament to his distorted working psychology at the time.

As for Leonard’s silence on the matter he was still very much pro-Howard. After one of Howard’s messages about his mother serving the brisket, he stopped the kissing and, referring to the brisket, said ‘it does melt in your mouth’. And if you remember correctly, Leonard WAS guilt ridden and even sought out Penny’s advice on the matter. 

Leonard: Doctor doctor. Surgical resident. Smart, pretty. Let me ask you something. If your friend thinks he’s dating someone, but he’s not because, in fact, you’re dating her, does that make you a bad person?

Penny: Well, that depends.

Leonard: On what?

Penny: Is that friend Wolowitz?

Leonard: Yeah.

Penny: Screw him. You’re fine.

Leonard: Are you sure?

Penny: Well, have you slept with her yet? You dog! Good for you.

Leonard: Does that change things?

Penny: No.

Leonard: So why’d you ask?

Penny: I’m nosy. See ya.

And even after Penny absolved him of any guilt, Leonard still showed up at Howard’s door to confess. But Stephanie got there first with her phone call.

it was his idea to lie to Sheldon about the can opener in the Arctic

My Pet Peeve! This incident is often misinterpreted by those that highly favor Sheldon, and frequently by Shenny's, to suggest that Leonard is a bad person, and did great damage to Sheldon. This is not true. So thank you so very much for bringing this up and the need to argue this. AGAIN.

Yes. Leonard did lie to Sheldon in Arctic.

TO SAVE SHELDON’S LIFE.

In your pursuit to color Leonard badly, you deliberately did not reference Sheldon’s very bad canon behavior. If three men (who are not crazy and whose mother’s never had them tested) wanted to kill Sheldon, I think that speaks volumes to how badly Sheldon behaved and how insufferable he must have been. And he wasn’t going to credit them for their part in the work only giving them an effusive footnote. Very, very unprofessional and very bad form on Sheldon’s part.

we saw him sneaking around reading Penny's journal behind her back.

Pffffffft. He wasn’t ‘sneaking around’. He inadvertently picked up her journal, and, not realizing what it was, read only that entry (that we know of). Until the writers tell us more, to claim that Leonard read more than one entry would be supposition on your part and most arguable.

He has a long history of lying, especially when it comes to women.

Disagree. See my counters to your statements above.

The quote about Pryia I posted above, the one where he says he really loves her and thinks that they could get married one day and then asks how to get away with cheating on her? That is part of who he is and that will forever colour his character, regardless of how good a man he is trying to be for his wife now.

To me, it’s evident that what Priya and Leonard shared WASN’T love.  Supposition on my part but, to me, it ‘feels’ like Leonard is trying to sanitize his remembered relationship with Priya to make it something more worthy than it actually was. If it truly was love, he wouldn’t have wanted to cheat on Priya. And clearly, whatever Leonard felt or presumed about their relationship wasn’t shared by Priya because she was already in the arms of Sanjay.

And because you brought up Alice indirectly, lets visit that situation. FWIW, he DID TRY to tell Alice about Priya (maybe not too strongly) ‘there were too many tongues in my mouth’ and feeling very guilty, he did go to Penny for advice. Now Penny’s advice was kind of ‘ping-pong-y’ IMO, kind of all over the place. But here at the MOST SALIENT part of this whole story, you are horribly cherry picking to deliberately paint Leonard very badly. Although Leonard said that he ‘wanted to be one of those guys’ – in his HEAD he wanted to be ‘player’ but in his HEART and CHARACTER wouldn’t let him. He could never be and never would be. That’s why he confessed to Alice.

Howard will always be capable of being a little bit creepy, Raj will always be a little insecure, Sheldon will always be big headed and Leonard will always be a little bit sneaky.

Wow.

Just wow.

Sheldon ‘will always be big headed’? Spoken like a true Sheldon Apologist.

Like when he:

Accused Penny of trading sexual favors for material gain?

Blackmailed Priya thereby making Leonard sign the ‘new and improved’ Roommate Agreement?

Tried to change Penny with Operant Conditioning?

Pet names for Amy: Gollum and/or Flaky.

Signed up for a mission to Mars without telling Amy?

Had a temper tantrum and fled for months when Leonard dared to address the living arrangements?

Was an absolutely horrible companion in the Arctic so that he friends wanted to kill him? And then not intending to credit his fellow scientists on the resultant paper?

And they are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head! You say ‘big headed’ to describe Sheldon. I’d describe him MUCH differently and not so benevolently.

 

Well, you are right about Allice. I don't consider it to be cheating, mainly because it was just kissing and he came clean.

 

I agree that Leonard wasn't in love with Priya, mainly because they had nothing in common and couldn't really resolve any of their issues.

 

But seriously, you are fine with "too busy making out/flirting with another girl to mention that I have a girlfriend already" excuse? Cheating or not, that is a lousy excuse.

 

 

And Penny's "advice" wasn't all over the place. She made it very clear that he couldn't have done what he wanted: seeing two girls in the same time with everyone remaining happy.

 

As for your points about Sheldon...

 

To be fair, Leonard was right about the Relationship Agreement until he intentionally started using the holes in it to make Sheldon miserable rather to just make himself feel better. He was willing to eat something that he hated only because Sheldon hated it more. And the parent issue would have resurfaced sooner or later. It isn't a good sign if the relationship is founded on  keeping secrets, ignoring problems and lying. If anything, Leonard should have taken Sheldon's blackmail as the evidence of what had been wrong with his relationship with Priya and break up with her. We all know how their relationship ended and apparently her parents hated Leonard all the way through. Sheldon almost saved him a lot of heartache.

 

As for Arctic, I don't think that was the first time the guys would joke or talk about something like that, even when angry, without actually meaning it. Heck, Penny talked about castrating Sheldon at one point. And by that logic, one may say that tells more about them then about him. The guys knew how difficult Sheldon was to deal with and how he wasn't really the one to share a credit (remember Physics bowl, Ramona...?) but still decided to go.

 

 

Really, your justification is "he had to hurt him so the others wouldn't KILL him"? I would have stopped watching the show long ago if I had gotten that impression about Leonard, Howard or Raj. That is a straw man argument if there ever was one. 

 

 

And, apparently, by your logic, unless somebody gets "tested" as a child, he/she must be completely sane, reasonable person throughout the life, that only the worst of bullying can provoke.

 

 

No, neither of the guys were innocent in that incident, especially not Sheldon, and I don't think any should have been punished harshly, but I find your point of view pretty... revealing. And not in a good way.

 

As for fleeing, I think there have been many reasons for that, building up from maybe even beginning of the season. He hadn't ran away the first time Leonard had moved out. And I don't think that he would have moved to Mars without Amy or thar he wouldn't have asked her to make an application too eventually. He isn't even willing to change the apartment. Even during his depature in season seven finale he kept in touch with her and his friends and never even left the train station. A decades would probably pass before such a thing would even be possible and he knew that. Not so long after Penny sought out and followed through on an advice about acting without consulting Leonard.

 

I agree that the comment about Penny trading sexual favors for money (one comment seasons ago, but I guess that doesn't matter to you when Sheldon is involved) was wrong. But Penny wasn't acting much better herself before or after that moment. She was almost proud of Leonard for sleeping with that woman in an exchange for fundings (he hadn't actually slept with her because of that but she thought he had), sent photographs of herself in a bra to an electrical company, commented about possibly dating Raj in the past if she had known he was rich and thought that Leonard shouldn't tell Howard he was seeing a woman he [Howard] was interested in. But she still got angry after finding out Leonard had slept with Elizabeth Plimpton.

 

Long story short, you are both cherry picking. And you can apply "apologist" to yourself too. 

1 hour ago, Stephen Hawking said:

So, it's not cheating, if I make out with another girl, behind my girlfriend's back, provided I don't do any more than kiss, and tell my girlfriend afterwards  

I'd say that that depends on the circumstances of the meeting, personalities of the parties involved, relationship status at the time, the "nature" of kissing, the outcome etc.

[5Mississippis]

Mislav. You're back with your same comment but minus the slanderous comment denigrating me. As I now have you on Ignore, someone else kindly directed me to your post. 

You have shown willingness to be callous and purposefully inflammatory, blithely and maliciously accusing people of actions that you have absolutely no knowledge of. 

I have no respect for you. 

Praise be for the Ignore List.

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2015 by 5Mississippis

[Mislav]

9 minutes ago, 5Mississippis said:

Mislav. You're back with your same comment but minus the slanderous comment denigrating me. As I now have you on Ignore, someone else kindly directed me to your post. 

You have shown willingness to be callous and purposefully inflammatory, blithely accusing people of actions that you have absolutely no knowledge of. 

I have no respect for you. 

Praise be for the Ignore List.

 

 

 

Yes, somebody else happened to inform you about my post so you could reply...

 

 

Look, to be fair and get this over it, I do apologize if I was wrong and if my statement has come off as offensive, but given your attitude, and the way things tend to escalate on this thread, and the things you've been complaining about regarding other posters, I had-and have-no interest on elaborating that possibility (have you noticed the "I think" part?),  and I certainly will not do that if the person who requests that can't send a private message containing three coherent sentences without three swear words.

 

Praise be for the Ignore List indeed...

[Einstein Von Brainstorm]

4 hours ago, 5Mississippis said:

 

 

As your comment was directed towards me I'll do you the decency of a response - I'm afraid I can not respond to what you said though as it is entirely unreadable due to the font sizes and quote errors in it. Sorry!

 

[Tonstar17]

Good. You should stick to talking about shamy because you haven't got a clue when it's comes to Lenny. You have nothing good to say about the relationship so yeah. Maybe I'm using the wrong fonts as well.

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[3ku11]

Enough with these ship wars lol boy. If you like Shamy great, they appeal your sensibilities and preferences more. If you like Lenny more great they appeal your sensibilities and preferences more (Like mine). I personally find Shamy boring, they just make me sleepy. I guess their story does nothing for me. The book smart guy and street smart girl is more compelling for me. But that does not mean I dislike Shamy, or Lenny are so much better. It's relationships their is no difference between Shamy and Lenny at all (Other then the fact Lenny have been intimate a thousand times more then Shamy haha). They are boy and girls in relationships, its not rocket science. These ship wars have really taken over the show since probably Season Four, and I don't like it. I enjoy all the characters, in their own ways. OF course if your invested in something more, you may be a bit out of touch when talking about something your not as invested in. But its not a competition, no one is keeping score.

[Tonstar17]

What you talking about willis. ☺

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[Einstein Von Brainstorm]

24 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said:

Good. You should stick to talking about shamy because you haven't got a clue when it's comes to Lenny. You have nothing good to say about the relationship so yeah. Maybe I'm using the wrong fonts as well.

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

I thought you were ignoring me cus you found me boring?!

I was talking about Leonard not Lenny and I will continue to talk about whatever I feel like talking about thank you very much  

[Tonstar17]

24 minutes ago, Tonstar17 said: Good. You should stick to talking about shamy because you haven't got a clue when it's comes to Lenny. You have nothing good to say about the relationship so yeah. Maybe I'm using the wrong fonts as well.

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

I thought you were ignoring me cus you found me boring?!

I was talking about Leonard not Lenny and I will continue to talk about whatever I feel like talking about thank you very much [emoji4] 

Did I quote your post. What gave you the clue. Must have been a slip of the finger. Lol. But yeah it's your right to talk about whatever you want. Your post are not boring well not all of them. sorry about that.

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[djsurrey]