[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9

[hazelra7]

22 minutes ago, Tensor said:

No doubt, but are you agreeing  with the poster ATOB was answering that others can't or shouldn't question why we didn't, in our view, get them?

 

We can question all we want. That is what the forum is for.  I think there are a lot of us who would have LOVED to hear some of these answered. I agree with ATOB, that we should question the motivations of a critical plot point that we had to watch for a half a season before it was "resolved".  

However, its a sitcom and we never get answers we want!! Like:

What happened to Stephanie?

Why did Leonard kiss Mandy and never make any indication that he did, there by throwing the character under the bus for a throw away line?

Where is Faizal? Does he care that his fiancee is knocking boots with some Texan? (Joke intended I know the answer)

Where is Howard's brother this whole time?

Why did Penny not tell her "Bestie" about the ring AFTER Shamy got together?

What is Penny's last name?

 

All good questions that the writers will not give us the answers. The questions we ask, the ones we focus our energies on, are the ones that matter to US, not the show, or else they would be answered. We can ask all the day, but in the end, we are left to our own wondering.  So If a person has an opinion that is different than our, Like Sheldon is selfish douche or Amy was a shrill bitch, etc... that needs to be respected, because we are just arguing over things that will NEVER be solved. All speculation about it is just that.

That being said, I like the debate and the back and forth between the posters. I really do, and I think the forum is great for it.  Bring it on!  What would your Amy's answer be?  I know what mine was, but I wrote a story about it. Others use the forum to get their opinion out.  In the end, what most of what we think, just like all of Fan Fic is AU.  

[Tensor]

Thanks Hazel.

[3ku11]

Sheldon kidnapped Stephanie lol. 

[meka3000]

2 hours ago, Tensor said:

 

And not everyone see it as talking down to the viewers by not spelling it out.   Why is it OK to call one talking down to the audience, but not the other?  Is it only when you consider it talking down, is it considered talking down?  No one else can can consider the show talking down for their own reasons?  

So, they talked down to the audience, thanks for confirming that.  But, I don't quite understand and since you seem to know, how long  does it have to be explained to be considered not talking down?  

That assumes I saw either instance as talking down to the audience.  Also I did not confirm they talked down to the audience with Schroedinger's cat, the most I would confirm is that Sheldon talked down to penny because she didn't know what it was at first.

Here is an example of what I would consider talking down to your audience.  Remember when penny first told Leonard I love you?  She froze like a deer in the headlights.  But the audience that has followed their story knows why this is earth shattering for her.  It would be talking down to your audience IMO if one of them stopped and recounted Penny's history with commitment after that moment.  Or later on in the season 6 finale she says "I love you." without the weight of the world on her shoulders, it would be talking down to your audience IMO if one of those 3 pointed out why that was a big deal IN CONTRAST to 3x19 and the early parts of season 6.  It's not necessary for you to know about the contrast to enjoy the show/episode.  You just get more out of it if you do know about it.

The need to over explain things constantly is when I consider it talking down to your audience. Not pointing out what a specific acronym stands for or things like Sheldon talking down to people which is inherant to his character.

Edited January 27, 2016 by meka3000

[JE7]

Words just like statistics can be twisted to draw conclusions diffrent than thier actual meaning quite easily it is the primary tool of the propagandist

Semantics

 

Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?

J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit

Edited January 27, 2016 by JE7

[Carlos]

19 hours ago, Lionne said:

But this where I bang my head against the wall, 2L344, because Amy KNEW that she was too "emotionally exhausted" at that point in the relationship to know what her "true desires" were, and she wanted to take a break. She wanted time to think about it. She couldn't communicate about it, and she knew full well she was confused. She full on admitted all this, while gently telling Sheldon that she definitely still loved him, which was why it was hard, but she needed some time to sort herself out. How can you blame her for not being able to communicate better and know herself and her true desires when she fully admitted she didn't know those answers and wanted some time to find them?

She did not act "on her best interests," she acted out of the fact that Sheldon disrespected her by failing to give her any of this space. He demanded his answer from her right then and there - are we broken up or not. And he adds in that zinger about her fertility. Respect it critical, and any guy who doesn't respect you needs to go. Sheldon was grossly disrespectful to Amy (and I was a little angry at the writers for making him so disrespectful, as it totally justified Amy dumping him without too much controversy) and she dumped him. As she should have.

She didn't end the relationship on a whim, because it just suited her desires at the time. She ended the relationship because he hounded, insulted and disrespected her into doing so. Period. I'm sorry, but that's clearly how it played out on screen. We are meant to understand that Sheldon literally drove her to breaking up with him, and then he made it much worse with the play with Penny's bra, and then that FwF issue....comparing her genitalia to Czechoslovakia. It's uniquely Shamy that the biggest insult in this entire game was made by metaphor to a dissolved Slovian state, but Amy's reaction to that one was quite clear - she drove all the way over there just to scream at him to take it down, because she was so pissed off.

And I think that's the area in which Amy was mostly existing in - absolute rage. She was confused about a lot of things, but boy, Sheldon really gave her an emotional state to concentrate on in the long run, yeah? Anger. She was so angry with him that for awhile I think that's all she could see. And I believe that this anger was doubled down because before Amy was drawing to the end of what she could take from the relationship, she had worn some seriously rose-tinted glasses about Sheldon and their relationship for quite awhile. She needed to let those fall off to see things clearly, and I think that's actually where she was when she initiated a pause so she could have some time to think.

In any case, I think that the last two episodes are really opening up the wounds about the original break up. When Amy and Sheldon broke up, people took sides, and in particular, people wanted to understand more of Amy's side of the story.

Anyway, for me, here is the problem: Even if you were on Amy's side of the break up in the beginning, the show focused entirely on Sheldon's pain and personal growth. Amy's side was barely shown, or only hinted at. Sheldon achieved all of these personal breakthroughs and eventually won her back and then sealed the deal with sex, and clearly he worked very hard to make her happy in that regard too.

And it would be great if that was the end of it. There was a rift, they grew, they got back together, and now they are happy. But apparently the show isn't done - both the episode with Meemaw and the V-Day episode bring the break up back up, and show, once again, that Sheldon justifies the break up as necessary, and miraculously says "one needs to change to evolve," and seems to have accepted his role in the break up and have grown from it. Contrast that with Amy seeming really defensive about her decision, and not apologizing for her part in it at all, and somehow in all of this Amy has become the villain of the break up, but I swear to God I was there and that is NOT what I watched.

But maybe it would be best? If the issue is ever going to be put to rest? Still, I don't buy it. I don't care if the show has shown so much pain and suffering from Sheldon's side, and how much he's grown. I think it's great, but I can still remember back to so many other things he's done in the past - like getting jealous and insulting her when her paper made the cover of Neuron, running away without saying goodbye after snapping at her and storming out, all that time that was gloating at the fact that sexually she was monogamous to him but he was under no obligation to sexually satisfy her needs - yeah, Sheldon's been a real selfish ass in this relationship at times, and I feel it's insulting to Amy to say....okay! Now you have to apologize too!

Because you can say that Amy is responsible for 35% of the break up, but HOW exactly? Other than the fact she broke up with him, what behavior, what did she do, that she has to apologize for?

I was going to give my opinion, but there's really no need. This post is 100 % perfect.

[3ku11]

Amy has nothig to.apologize for. SHELDON desrved and needed the wakeup call.

[Carlos]

12 hours ago, Mislav said:

You've been grasping at straws so much that it's sad.

For me it's sad that you cannot accept Chrismo's sound reasoning.

12 hours ago, Chiany said:

If not, why is Penny living with him, and Amy isn't.

And Emily smart, sure...

Because both Leonard and Penny are exceptionally good friends that didn't leaver Sheldon alone in a time of need.

So Emily is not smart then?

4 hours ago, ATOB said:

Did you see the 'girls night' episode where Amy invited herself to Penny's with "I'm a girl" at the Cheesecake Factory and then researched what happens on girl's sleepovers; pillow fights, harmless lesbian experimentation etc? Later, she follows Penny into her room when she becomes upset over Leonard during a game of truth or dare and does something that makes Penny scream "what are you doing?" 

Here's a good game to pass the taping hiatus, what do you think Amy did to get that reaction? I'm going for either steal a kiss or grab Penny's boob. Anyone else wanna play?

Oh, also didn't she want the girls to get naked and rub mud all over each other for Bernie's hen do?

Private members club for two is just a turn of phrase BTW.

Wasn't she going to touch Penny's nether- yeya ? They eased off later, but back then Amy was, dare I say, more than bi-curious. Do you remember when she said ( I forget to whom) referring to Penny: " There is not a hair in my body I wouldn't let this woman touch" ?

[Tensor]

 

2 hours ago, meka3000 said:

That assumes I saw either instance as talking down to the audience.  Also I did not confirm they talked down to the audience with Schroedinger's cat, the most I would confirm is that Sheldon talked down to penny because she didn't know what it was at first.

I saw it as talking down to the audience.   You can view it that way if you wish, I won't tell you that you're wrong.  Unless you think it's wrong for me to think of it that way, are you?  I also noticed you didn't answer exactly how long they would have to explain something for it not to be talking down to the audience.  

Yes you did.  I saw the explaination as talking down.  It was obvious to me what they meant.  So, by your reasoning, they were talking down to those who didn't understand Schrödinger's cat, evidently because it was oblivious to some of the audience.  Unless you think it's wrong for me to tell others they are oblivious for not understanding the way I see it.  

2 hours ago, meka3000 said:

Here is an example of what I would consider talking down to your audience.  Remember when penny first told Leonard I love you?  She froze like a deer in the headlights.  But the audience that has followed their story knows why this is earth shattering for her.  It would be talking down to your audience IMO if one of them stopped and recounted Penny's history with commitment after that moment.  

You mean like Penny did in the laundry room?  Got it, Penny was the vehicle to talk down to those in the audience who had no hint prior to her reaction in bed, because it hadn't been brought up before.  

2 hours ago, meka3000 said:

The need to over explain things constantly is when I consider it talking down to your audience. Not pointing out what a specific acronym stands for or things like Sheldon talking down to people which is inherant to his character.

Are you saying I have to accept your definition of overexploiting things?  Having to stop to explain what acronyms stand for is what I consider talking down to your audience.  You're more than welcome to enjoy your definition.  I don't understand, what I see, as your need to tell others their definitions and interpretation are somehow wrong, when you are doing nothing more than demanding they accept your definition.  

[EvilStewie]

1 hour ago, JE7 said:

Words just like statistics can be twisted to draw conclusions diffrent than thier actual meaning quite easily it is the primary tool of the propagandist

Semantics

 

Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?

J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit

"Come over and Fast, do you mean come over quickly, or come over and don't eat?" -Dharma

[Chiany]

3 hours ago, Carlos said:

So Emily is not smart then?

Compared to Amy, not at all.

[JE7]

21 minutes ago, Chiany said:

Compared to Amy, not at all.

 

Everyone knows the only people who go to Harvard medical are the ones who can't cut it at a real school

 

[Chrismo]

5 hours ago, Chiany said:

Compared to Amy, not at all.

Based on what?

[SRAM]

16 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

Based on what?

Well it is generally thought that the brightest minds go into research, while the others go into practical aspects in their field.  So since Amy is in research and Emily is a practicing physician so it is not a bad assumption that Amy is much smarter that Emily.  It is also a theme in the show, Sheldon is a theorist (research), while Leonard is involved in (practical) experiments, because Sheldon is portrayed smarter than Leonard.

[Mislav]

9 hours ago, Carlos said:

For me it's sad that you cannot accept Chrismo's sound reasoning.

Because both Leonard and Penny are exceptionally good friends that didn't leaver Sheldon alone in a time of need.

So Emily is not smart then?

Wasn't she going to touch Penny's nether- yeya ? They eased off later, but back then Amy was, dare I say, more than bi-curious. Do you remember when she said ( I forget to whom) referring to Penny: " There is not a hair in my body I wouldn't let this woman touch" ?

Chrismo. Sound reasoning. In the same sentence.

Finally, Carlos, you made a good joke.

[SRAM]

I think the writers went overboard with Amy's lesbian like remarks to Penny, like they did with Emily's creepiness and like they are doing now with the centering of the show around Sheldon.

[Etienne]

53 minutes ago, SRAM said:

Well it is generally thought that the brightest minds go into research, while the others go into practical aspects in their field.  So since Amy is in research and Emily is a practicing physician so it is not a bad assumption that Amy is much smarter that Emily.  It is also a theme in the show, Sheldon is a theorist (research), while Leonard is involved in (practical) experiments, because Sheldon is portrayed smarter than Leonard.

Sometimes people self select or are encouraged to follow that course because of the avoidance of inter-personal skills. The result of people noticing the "doesn't play well with others" category.  Dealing with lab rats can be less stressful that dealing with human patients. 

[Chrismo]

2 hours ago, Mislav said:

Chrismo. Sound reasoning. In the same sentence.

Finally, Carlos, you made a good joke.

I have about three times as many posts but about 5 times as many posts. Apparently I have more sound reasoning than you. Of course you probably think everyone who agrees with me doesn't have sound reasoning.

[Tensor]

 

9 hours ago, meka3000 said:

So now your TELLING ME what my own words meant?  Pot meet kettle.  Also I CLEARLY said it was Sheldon talking down TO PENNY. My own words:

 

Yes, what they mean to me.  Or are you saying I have to accept your definitions of what words mean to you.

9 hours ago, meka3000 said:

I said it was explained for Penny I didn't use the word audience in there AT ALL.  Just because he talked down to her in that scene does NOT necessarily mean the audience was being treated as idiots.

Sure it did.  With the SETI thing making it even worse.  Remember, there's no need to over explain everything.  You have your definition, I have mine.  Why can't you leave me to mine?

9 hours ago, meka3000 said:

Except we as an audience had no clue about her previous incident about why saying "I love you" is a big deal to her.  We DID NOT KNOW that she considered the fact that saying those 3 words are a big deal to her UNTIL that episode.  So informing your audience about that is not treating them like idiots IMO. 

Just like the audience had no clue as to what Amy meant by it's tough.  What particular thing was tough?  Since you seem to have the answers.  What EXACTLY in her relationship with Sheldon, with your proof that that is exactly what she meant, did Amy mean by it's tough?  We got why Penny was freaked out by it, but we haven't heard why EXACTLY it was tough for Amy.  If one is talking down to the audience, so it the other.

 

9 hours ago, meka3000 said:

Are you sure that's not just you reading into my words what you want to read them as, BECAUSE you might be determined to see them that way?  Because to me it seems like EVERY TIME you bring up me "demanding" something you seem to have nothing to back up that interpretation with except your own instincts.  

If it was me, I might agree with you.  Once can be a mistake, twice a coincidence, the third time is a pattern.  Since there are more than five that have challenged you on your posting style (and approaching 15 in PM), I would say it's you.  Cause I'll note your challenges to how other people see the show, is nothing more than your aggressive posting that they accept your interpretation.  

And I'll note my question for the third time "Exactly how long they would have to explain something for it not to be talking down to the audience?"     

[Mislav]

2 hours ago, Chrismo said:

I have about three times as many posts but about 5 times as many posts. Apparently I have more sound reasoning than you. Of course you probably think everyone who agrees with me doesn't have sound reasoning.

Quality over quantity, Chrismo. 

 

What is next? Claiming that "The Police Academy" franchise is better than "Citizen Kane" because it ("The Police Academy") has had six sequels? Or that "Tommyknockers" is a better book than "Breakfast at Tiffany's" because it has more words/pages? But we don't have to make such elaborate comparisons: Chiany has had way more posts than you, and that hasn't stopped you from disagreeing with him, right?

[rachelshamyfan]

Guessing game starts now

[2L344]

Like Al Pacino in Godfather 3, "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in" lol...I hope this post isn't seen as another tiresome repetition of my other posts, and if it is I apologize in advance. But as there is a poll out now, and I have been quoted a couple times in posts here and the DT thread, I just want to make sure nothing I have posted has lead to any misunderstandings on this whole "apology" topic...I copied this post to the Shamy Shipper thread as well since a lot of those folks don't weigh in on here...

First of all, I'm in no way a Sheldon apologist, I hope my posts have at least reflected that. I've done my share of cringing at the things he has said and done to not only Amy but the rest of the ensemble. I also have had plenty of belly laughs over the years at the inappropriate stuff that Sheldon has spewed, it's a guilty pleasure we can all probably relate to. But when it came to Amy, yikes- no way to treat a lady.

Do I believe Amy had every right to break up with Sheldon? Hell yeah! I'm just surprised it didn't happen way sooner. Everyone has the right to make choices for their betterment, and this includes Amy. I've never disputed her right to end it with Sheldon. I also recognize that she wanted a separation, not a break up, at first and it was Sheldon's behavior that broke the straw....

My biggest problem was the way this arc played out at the end. Had Amy stuck to her guns and it was Sheldon that initiated the reconciliation, not Amy, then I probably wouldn't even be entertaining this topic. But it was Amy that tried to start it back up unconditionally and THAT is the root of my issue regarding an apology for the break up itself. 

If Amy was my daughter, and she told me she was considering asking Sheldon to be her BF again, I'd have to shake some sense into her somehow. Why would you want to return to a guy who treated you poorly and provoked you into breaking up with him? And without any assurances or indications that he has changed? At this point in 9.09 Amy has no idea that Sheldon hit rock bottom, nor has Sheldon demonstrated change (one aquarium outing doesn't cut it). Sheldon has yet to even have his epiphany. Loving and missing Sheldon is all fine, but returning to status quo-- well isn't that just inviting another break up if Sheldon didn't change, or did Amy just overreact and that Sheldon's behavior isn't as bad as she thought and,therefore, she should just accept it and plod through because the things she missed make it worthwhile?

But that is the path the writers chose, so in keeping with that plot at 9.09 I had a problem with Amy telling Sheldon she was ready to be his gf again. "Ready"? If this had been a mutually agreed upon trial separation ( and maybe Amy still saw it that way), then that would've worked for me. But it wasn't! Amy ended it, and let it stay ended for 6 months. Sheldon was an ass during it at times, but at least in his own inappropriate and clueless way he was trying to reach out. Yes Amy took his calls, but that's not the same thing as reaching out to try to undo things. Not that I'm saying she needed to.

So if Amy is going to try to pick up where she left off without expecting, discussing, or even asking for change, then I believe a little humility is in order when trying to reconcile (not grovelling, just a little humility for being the terminator of the relationship). Yes, I think at that point given those facts and that situation, Amy should've said she was sorry. Sorry for maybe failing to communicate better before acting out, sorry for allowing things to go on as long they did. Again, WHY should she say she is sorry to someone who acted the way he did? Because it is SHE who wants to resume a relationship that SHE terminated at that point in time with no strings attached. Again, I'm talking about the point in time of 9.09, not now. She wants him back as he was, therefore it's hard to continue to call Sheldon out for being a tool. Even though he was one.

At this point in time (with reconciliation and now sex having been completed, and Sheldon has had his epiphany and seems to be working on things thanks to Amy's help) do I desire exchanges of apologies by either of them? Nah, to me it's pointless. Amy got her guy back without having to apologize for anything, and the same with Sheldon. Hey, if they're happy then who am I to complain? Do I think they both share blame in the break up? yup. Do I think Sheldon owes Amy an apology about how he has treated her all this time? You bet I do, especially now that he's had his lesson in empathy lol. Just because things are going well doesn't mean I've forgotten how we got there, and I don't absolve either one for the mistakes they made. 

I also don't, however, desire that the writers revisit the break up angst and shove them both on a stage delivering these apologies to the audience either. That ship sailed for me. I wouldn't mind seeing the mutual regret about hurting each other during this, might make for a Kleenex moment for some, but I'm good with it being implied. As long as I'm made to understand that they both played a part in this break up and both accept their share of the blame for it I'll be a happy camper. Hell, with reconciliation here, I AM a happy camper! Very happy! Doesn't mean I don't have my issues with 9.09 though.....

I didn't vote in the poll since I could only vote for one answer, and I think the issue is a little more complicated than what can be seen in a poll (clearly, lol). I DO appreciate the posts that I've read, whether I agree or not on some points made. I've participated in the Discussion thread and also in Shamyland on this topic, so forgive me if I get mixed up with what was said in both. I find the posts by Lionne, Wowbagger (you crack me up!), Tensor, Jenafan, Bluebird, Touché and a few others, to be articulate, easy to read and understand, insightful, and entertaining. Sometimes the posts can get a bit passionate and I get it. 

For me, I think I've reached maximum density on the topic lol. At this point I'll take a line from Monty Python and "Say no more" (as the forum breathes a sigh of relief).

[Boonaroma]

Sure looks like "Reaction" to me.

[2L344]

14 minutes ago, rachelshamyfan said:

Guessing game starts now

Last word looks like "Reaction"?

[Tensor]

The first word looks like "The".