[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9

[3ku11]

Does this mean Raj and Howard know? Bernadette and Amy?

I think Sheldon knows about her. Just not the cheating part. 

[rachelshamyfan]

Sheldon knows about the kissing, it's in the report

[stardustmelody]

Why do the writers need to reveal EVERYTHING in one episode?

So you think it makes sense to assume that nothing else will be revealed about this, JUST AFTER more was revealed in the follow up episode to the season finale?

 

Did you even read my message??????  I SAID that it is because they are re-writing history to make their story work that is the issue...not that there is more that may come out. We don't know and won't presume to know if more may or may not come out.  But what we do know is that they have messed up the history now so much and compromised it in such a way that no matter WHAT they tell in the future, we now have no idea when they will change that down the road and make it all different again. It has become an implausible story because they have violated their own history that they spent years writing in the past with this couple.  THAT is what does not make sense.  Why are you so focused on what is still unknown?  That is irrelevant.  It already is too compromised to make any sense and to be plausible because of what they have already told in the PAST...that is the issue!

[Tensor]

 

If your trying to suggest he works in the writers room your wasting your time.

 

The difference is I'm not claiming a story makes no sense without knowing deeper details, he is.

 

AGAIN with this.  I'm not implying that he has to watch it a specific way.  All I'm saying is that I think his interpretation about it making no sense is wrong & without nuance. He could chose to view a different situation on the show in the same way, and I could find that I agree with his interpretation.  It's THIS SPECIFIC INTERPRETATION that I don't agree with.

I still don't see any indication the you know for sure, that he isn't there.  You know, like you keep demanding others know for sure.   It's a hypocritical stance. You demand the know for sure, but you don't require it of yourself.

is there something wrong with his coming to a conclusion just knowing the details he knows?  Or do you require  he must wait for deeper details?

So because he watches the show differently, his view is wrong and without nuance?  How should he watch the show,  so his view isn't wrong and has nuance?

[3ku11]

Why do the writers need to reveal EVERYTHING in one episode?

So you think it makes sense to assume that nothing else will be revealed about this, JUST AFTER more was revealed in the follow up episode to the season finale?

 

they diddnt reveal.anything in two years lol. Sheldon knowing does that aftee being incable of keeping a secret for years, suddenly make sense to you? Just because of the hypothetical scenario of being more? Doesent matter if we find out he was drugged lol, apart from the presumptions. Using the facts at hand, they did a story like this and they waited an to tell Priya. Suddenly your logic is characters can change, but can the writing? Based on that logic it makes no sense. 

[Chrismo]

Sheldon did keep one secret. he didn't tell Leonard about Penny thinking of breaking up with him in season 6. If Sheldon told that story it seems to me that would help Leonard's situation. A " bit" of an equalizer.

[meka3000]

 It has become an implausible story because they have violated their own history that they spent years writing in the past with this couple.  THAT is what does not make sense.  Why are you so focused on what is still unknown?  That is irrelevant.  It already is too compromised to make any sense and to be plausible because of what they have already told in the PAST...that is the issue!

They didn't rewrite history, they retconned it.  Nothing that we have been given so far in the TR  IMO has been proven to invalidate the characters/history that we know.

Just because you didn't know about this specific story in the past, doesn't mean it didn't happen in the shows canon.

Leonard has been known to give in to female attention throughout the series.  He's also been known to keep secrets from his friends for a long period of time (Irish Pub Formulation).

[3ku11]

They didn't rewrite history, they retconned it.  Nothing that we have been given so far in the TR  IMO has been proven to invalidate the characters/history that we know.

Just because you didn't know about this specific story in the past, doesn't mean it didn't happen in the shows canon.

Leonard has been known to give in to female attention throughout the series.  He's also been known to keep secrets from his friends for a long period of time (Irish Pub Formulation).

your just shifting the goal posts now. We were talking about lieing to Penny, now your referencing lieing to his friends? Or past behaviour? Your point is cant make presumptions because we dont know the whole story. Well you clearly have a crystall ball, and all the awnswers. So lets call it a day lol. 

[veejay]

This quote might possibly help:
'I don't get it.
A dolphin might.
Oh, I see. You guys are inferring that I'm stupid.
That's not correct. We were implying it.
You then inferred it.
Let's go.’

[meka3000]

Sheldon knowing does that aftee being incable of keeping a secret for years, suddenly make sense to you?

You forget he kept the super mario brothers movie and his motive behind it a secret.  Obviously he got better at keeping secrets.

Suddenly your logic is characters can change

No my logic that characters approach different situations in different ways.  Just because infidelity is involved doesn't mean the situations don't differ as we are finding out.

your just shifting the goal posts now. We were talking about lieing to Penny, now your referencing lieing to his friends? Or past behaviour?

How does Penny not qualify as one of his friends?  You've been using the past behavior he showed with Priya to say that his current behavior with Penny makes no sense.

[mirs1]

Meka, you are missing the point.  The point isn't about whether there is more story behind his indiscretion, it is that the way the writers handled his revelation to Penny is what many viewers, including myself feel makes no sense.  

If he claims to love Penny with all his heart and wants to spend the rest of his life with her, why did it take him over two years to mention the "kiss that meant nothing to him" and that was "so bad it chipped her tooth" to Penny?  Why did he also not reveal immediately up front that that same person worked with him?  Get the whole truth out immediately all at once instead of a bit at a time and then we still don't know if another bomb is about to be dropped?   It makes no sense given the history of the character.  

Leonard didn't even care for Priya nearly at the level he has always cared about Penny, yet immediately told her when he had his attraction to Alice and that he couldn't cheat on her.   Why not do the same with Penny, the love of his life?   It makes no sense that he would take so long to reveal this information to her, much less wait until on his way to marry her.   Why didn't he reveal it upon return from the North Sea and make it clear he would still be seeing this girl on a daily basis because she worked at Cal Tech (which came out of the blue as well since he was supposed to be a unique selection from Cal Tech and they re-wrote that history as well).  

That is what does not make sense...that they re-wrote history all over the place to make a plot-ploy in order to mess up Lenny's wedding and weaken them.   Their story and history now have been compromised because they re-wrote history all over the place to make this story work in the writers room.   That is what does not make any sense.   What you said about there may be more...I believe there is more and that is also going to only make it even more confusing and make it harder to make sense out of any of it.

Also, just read Chrismo's remark and yes...that also means that Sheldon held this information from Penny for two years...a man who is terrible at keeping secrets.  So why the secrecy and why suddenly are they re-writing history all ove r the place and making the story so implausible?   It is hard to swallow it when it destroys all of the previous history that was already in place.

I read in a comment made by one of those who where at the taping that apparently Sheldon didn't know anything up to Lenny returned home. He didn't know even the name of the girl, Penny told him who she was and then in reply Sheldon said that she is a brilliant and pretty girl (something else Leonard didn't mention to Penny). Sorry, I can't find the comment right now, I think you should trust my memory....

For the rest, I completely agree, the more we know of this boat girl, the less it makes sense with everything has been said about Leonard character. By the way, even if after talking with this girl Penny discovers that the kiss was just a Leonard's drunken dream and nothing ever happened,  he has been lying to her for two years about a girl he meets at work I suppose often enough. I don't think the writers made a good service to Leonard's character. 

Edited August 14, 2015 by mirs1

[meka3000]

Sheldon knows about the kissing, it's in the report

Did Leonard have a chance to talk to Sheldon before Sheldon talked to Penny?

[stardustmelody]

Meka...you can believe whatever you wish.  But they have definitely violated past history whether you choose to see it or not.  As Sheldon would say...you can't see atoms but they are there.  They clearly changed history when they decided to have Leonard's behavior with a woman in the past that meant not near as much as Penny means to him be totally different when it came to an indiscretion.  They also changed history when they said that Cal Tech was being offered one person to be able to go on the North Seas trip and Leonard was selected.  So suddenly this woman that was also on the North Seas works at Cal-Tech...that is re-writing history.  One person does not equal two no matter how you slice it.

Likewise, Sheldon may not have known about the indiscretion, but he certainly knew that Leonard was still working with an intelligent and attractive woman for the last two years that he had been on the North Seas with (that may be retconned, but still is very hard to swallow)...and yet he had never mentioned her before?   Even in a casual conversation they likely would have said Mandy recommended xyz on a proposal or something.  If you are going to retcon a story...you still need to make it believable.  Right now...they have made this totally unbelievable.  It just is too hard to swallow as a fan because it is so out of character and so out in the left field.   It may have more story, but what is already there is very far-fetched.   

I guess not all of us are gullible and always just take what the writers say as gospel.   Because we know for a fact they have re-written history in the past, and they have also violated character traits in the past, but they were minor compared to this whopper!

[meka3000]

For the rest, I completely agree, the more we know of this boat girl, the less it makes sense with everything has been said about Leonard character. By the way, even if after talking with this girl Penny discovers that the kiss was just a Leonard's drunken dream and nothing ever happened,  he has been lying to her for two years about a girl he meets at work I suppose often enough. I don't think the writers made a good service to Leonard's character. 

Okay but why is it out of character for Leonard to keep a secret about a drunken kiss and the girl working there from Penny for 2 years?

[Mislav]

I agree completely, stardustmelody!

Writers should be fired. (OK, this is the last time I will say that.)

[stardustmelody]

Okay but why is it out of character for Leonard to keep a secret about a drunken kiss and the girl working there from Penny for 2 years?

1.  Leonard dated Priya because Penny dumped him.  He liked Priya and enjoyed the sex, but he never felt the same about her that he did Penny.  He worshiped and adored Penny.  He wanted his future to be with her, not Priya, yet he was willing to try and make things work with Priya because he thought Penny would never date him again.  

2.   When he found himself attracted to Alice...the girl in the comic bookstore, and actually kissed her but then stopped things immediately and said he could not cheat on Priya it set a standard.  It showed Leonard knew immediately that he could not be a cheater.

3.   He immediately Skyped Priya and revealed what happened because he felt so guilty.  He could not let it fester more than a few hours.  That set a standard of his behavior.

4.  Now suddenly, the woman he loves more than anything and the woman he waited forever to marry, we find out he decided to hide from her that he had kissed a girl, even if not initiated by him and he wasn't attracted to her, but he didn't feel so guilty to tell Penny?  Why suddenly he can feel no guilt for two years and suddenly on their way to marry he decides he is guilt-ridden?   It makes NO SENSE because it was not who Leonard had already established himself to be in the past.   Then you couple that he didn't tell the whole story all at once, but later reveals "and by the way we still work together and have been for the last two years"....well again that is totally out of character.

The standard had been set historically with Leonard's character in previous seasons.  You can't erase that, take it away or add to it.  It was there...established.  So yes...it is a character change no matter how you try and sugar coat it and decide that the writers may write their way out of this mess.  The trust as a viewer has been broken by their own violation of history.

[meka3000]

They clearly changed history

Not sure I agree 100% with your police work there Lou.

For starters:

They also changed history when they said that Cal Tech was being offered one person to be able to go on the North Seas trip and Leonard was selected.  So suddenly this woman that was also on the North Seas works at Cal-Tech...that is re-writing history.  One person does not equal two no matter how you slice it.

That is NOT what was said.  Howard mentioned that one of the experimental physicists on Hawking's Team had dropped out and that Howard recommended him.  It doesn't mention ANYTHING about Cal Tech being offered only one person to go to the North Sea to be on Hawking's team, it doesn't even mention that ANY NUMBER of Cal-Tech employees went/were being offered an opportunity.  So no, they didn't rewrite history.

and yet he had never mentioned her before?

There's probably HUNDREDS of people from Cal Tech that they've worked/interacted with that we don't know about.  Why assume that we've seen our characters mention/interact with all of them?

Even in a casual conversation they likely would have said Mandy recommended xyz on a proposal or something.

Why are you assuming that our four are close friends with all people they work with and not just acquaintances that we haven't heard about until now?

Just because we don't see every person that Leonard works with on a daily basis doesn't mean said person doesn't exist, it just means we don't know about them.

I guess not all of us are gullible and always just take what the writers say as gospel.

Not all of us make claims of the writers changing history without checking to make sure the facts check out if the reference to back up your claim is out there.

Edited August 14, 2015 by meka3000

[rachelshamyfan]

Did Leonard have a chance to talk to Sheldon before Sheldon talked to Penny?

When

 

[djsurrey]

[snip]

The standard had been set historically with Leonard's character in previous seasons.  You can't erase that, take it away or add to it.  It was there...established.  So yes...it is a character change no matter how you try and sugar coat it and decide that the writers may write their way out of this mess.  The trust as a viewer has been broken by their own violation of history.

You are essentially right.

Will the audience just let it go because it is a sitcom?

Edited August 14, 2015 by djsurrey

[stardustmelody]

When

 

I think they are referrring to the part of the TR where Sheldon tells Penny that Mandy is intelligent and attractive.   What is unclear is whether or not Leonard and Sheldon had a chance to talk before Sheldon saw Penny and that line came out or not.

You are essentially right.

Will the audience just let it go because it is a sitcom?

Possibly but this show has been called on the issue of historical change before so I don't know...it depends on how incensed they are about the story overall.  I suspect many viewers are going to be tossing a lot of popcorn or chocolate at their TV screens after this episode because both of the major couples are in pretty serious circumstance in this one.   But yes, the general audience may let it go because they may not care enough about the characters either way.

[3ku11]

It doesent matter Leonard lied, or who knew, or his motivations. Point is writers changing history. Sorry you cant deny it. Why reveal.to Priya in one ep. But two years Leonard to tell Penny, sorry it makes no sense at all. Original point was making presumptions based on not knowing the full story. Sorry mika your doing exactly that, presuming theirs more to it. Point is Leonard lied to the love of his life. It lacks continuty fact. 

[Nogravitasatall]

@stardustmelody, I have, more inarticulatly, remarked about similar things and the problem is what to do about this.

The options are limited. I'm going to see how they proceed. If it's at all platable I'll likely swallow it. If not, I'll be back to where I was at the end of s8.23, and then be fed up. This at least is on the face of it more interesting than watching Leonard carry water for Sheldon and stand by as his affianced stares into the eyes of his flat-mate. They are contorting for length. Maybe it will be entertaining, if they can jump a few hurdles. Like surviving the reputational damage. But if they wanted to make a splash, they succeeded. And I want to find out how they plan to get out of the stinking hole they have dug and still smell rosy fresh for their prime time slot. No amount of analysis can resolve this They have cast the die. Either it works or not,

Edited August 14, 2015 by Nogravitasatall
speeelllinggg

[meka3000]

3.   He immediately Skyped Priya and revealed what happened because he felt so guilty.

4.  Now suddenly, the woman he loves more than anything and the woman he waited forever to marry, we find out he decided to hide from her that he had kissed a girl, even if not initiated by him and he wasn't attracted to her, but he didn't feel so guilty to tell Penny?

Why do you assume Leonard automatically has the same courage to tell Penny disappointing news?  Just because he reacted in one way with the Priya (a different woman) situation.

What about any other mitigating factors?

Why suddenly he can feel no guilt for two years and suddenly on their way to marry he decides he is guilt-ridden?

Because Penny was bringing up how they knew all their secrets, and he felt obligated to make sure that was true before they got married. 

Then you couple that he didn't tell the whole story all at once, but later reveals "and by the way we still work together and have been for the last two years"....well again that is totally out of character.

He didn't bring it up in the car because according to the TR, Leonard thought Penny wanted him to stop talking about it.

 

The standard had been set historically with Leonard's character in previous seasons.  You can't erase that, take it away or add to it.

Again why are you assuming that based on that one circumstance it automatically means he'll react to all those situations by automatically having the courage to tell the girl, and that the girl and whether leonard is afraid of disappointing a specific girl is not a factor?

Why reveal.to Priya in one ep. But two years Leonard to tell Penny, sorry it makes no sense at all.

See my conversation with stardust.

Edited August 14, 2015 by meka3000

[SRAM]

I like to offer a different perspective on this.  We all know the writers brainstorm these stories before the actually put pen to paper, so based on that could they have discussed how this relates to Alex.  First Leonard didn't LIE to Penny, he hid the information from her, just like he hid that Alex hit on him.  When Penny found out, besides being angry, he found out it hurt her, scared her she might loose him and he found out she was insecure.  The North Sea thing was like 6 months later, Leonard immediately knowing he didn't want anything from the girl immediately upon making the mistake of kissing her, so how does he tell Penny?  This girl is Alex all over again, Pretty, Smart and understands his work, all feeding Penny's insecurities.  Would you hid this from her?  Leonard is a 'nice guy' just like with Alice he is not able to use a girl, either by dating her when he has a girlfriend, or by not being honest with the girl he is about to marry, hence he finally stops hiding what happened two years later.

[Tensor]

Why do the writers need to reveal EVERYTHING in one episode?

So you think it makes sense to assume that nothing else will be revealed about this, JUST AFTER more was revealed in the follow up episode to the season finale?

 

It doesn't have to make sense to me.  It has to make sense, individually, to each person watching it.  To post, as you do, that unless a member considers everything that is possible, as you do, or considers things exactly the way you do, that their views are wrong,  is as you say, presumptuous.  It's also bull squirt and flat out rude.

 But, I guess by your reasoning, since we don't know the deeper details, it shouldn't come as a surprise to us when we find out that not only did Leonard sleep with this other woman, he had a  three way with her and her roommate on the boat.