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[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9


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11 minutes ago, Cindi May said:

They're both scared of growin'up though or having a "normal" relationship with their long time partners. I don't think they're suited for the roles that Amy and Leonard have casted upon them without altering their personality too much.

I am not sure I agree with this.  First off Leonard has been on the show since the pilot and it was always intended that Leonard and Penny would be the couple.  Penny was quite a different personality in the first five seasons and she went through a personality change in S6 and beyond.  Same with Sheldon.  So they can be altered and changed since the writers have taken them through a journey before.   Likewise Amy has been on since the end of S3 and she and Sheldon were both adolescents in development.  

Both Sheldon and Amy have grown together in many ways toward adult-hood although she a bit faster in some areas than him.  But she still shows signs of her inexperience shining through as well.   But that does not mean that they have to alter the essence of who they are.  They both still can be geniuses and have their superior overlord mentalities...which is who both were in early seasons.  But they both can grow up and become a loving couple as well and use the comedy through their experimentation and situations like they did in earlier seasons.  

Same with Leonard and Penny...they were much more loving in earlier seasons than they have been in more recent ones.   They may be harder to get there though because honestly I have never understood what makes them tick as a couple.   But somehow they can make it work and still have Penny be the shopaholic, the free-spirit that she is without having to diss Leonard week after week.   She can grow up and mature into a loving wife to him and still get into her "Lucille Ball" like messes to bring comedy back.   

I think they can still be who they are as people, but not keep them stifled and stunted, just change the comedy to lean toward situation again instead of all about relationship.   When it is focused on relationship it becomes mean and ends up with the mess we have now.   

Edited by stardustmelody

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I so agree about the summer of the North Sea trip being a turning point in the show.  Before that Lenny were solving their problems and moving forward, but after they have done nothing but slowly regress until now Penny makes about as many sarcastic remarks to Leonard as Sheldon does in putting him down.  

Their marriage reminds me of the night she had the bad date with Zack, so she used him and then told him her spur of the moment love fest was a mistake.  Their marriage was spur of the moment and Penny has already hinted to Dr Gallo a mistake.  I really expect them to separate in the show for a little while.

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1 minute ago, SRAM said:

I so agree about the summer of the North Sea trip being a turning point in the show.  Before that Lenny were solving their problems and moving forward, but after they have done nothing but slowly regress until now Penny makes about as many sarcastic remarks to Leonard as Sheldon does in putting him down.  

Their marriage reminds me of the night she had the bad date with Zack, so she used him and then told him her spur of the moment love fest was a mistake.  Their marriage was spur of the moment and Penny has already hinted to Dr Gallo a mistake.  I really expect them to separate in the show for a little while.

A little while??? haha..

I hope it is foreveeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr............

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22 minutes ago, No Regrets said:

Gonna post this quote by Kevin Pollak again cause it's never been more accurate: "Some of the lazy writing you see on TV is this character assassination that makes me insane, where - usually in the comedies - anything for a joke. So it means a character is suddenly an idiot and he's been intelligent until now, but it's funnier if he's stupid in the scene." 

Yes!! Like Sheldon talking about Meemaw having her period earlier this season.

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I agree that this show often relies too much on telling about dynamics rather than showing them, but one good thing that comes out of this episode is that it’s not this weird hinted at undercurrent of unhealthy relationships, it’s stated outright and addressed by the characters. I hope this is leading to a resolution rather than this weird thing that reads like the subconscious of the writers poking through. Penny and Sheldon do have quite a bit of growing to do, for themselves and in their relationships, and they do sometimes use each other as a crutch of homeostasis -  Sheldon, to stay a dependent child, and Penny to manipulate Leonard/not deal with Leonard directly. Plus some of the support that would be nice for Penny to show her partner, gets sublimated to Sheldon.  Perhaps their partners directly addressing the elephant in the apartment complex will help both couples, and individuals, work through these not-incredibly-healthy dynamics. And perhaps another one of the dynamics is Amy understanding that Sheldon’s close relationships with his other friends are not a threat to their relationship.

Also, I know that Sheldon/Penny is a touchy subject, hence the general uncomfortable-ness with this episode, but to me, Amy being a little insecure about her relationship with Sheldon in comparison to his relationship with others, is not really new. And it’s not just with Penny, it’s with Leonard too. There’s the season 7 fortune teller episode, the season 8 opener when she is frustrated that Sheldon called Leonard to pick him up instead of her, and the recent b-day party episode where she squabbles with Leonard over who knows Sheldon best. It’s something the writers have played with before that needs some addressing by Amy and Sheldon directly. Perhaps that’s where this is headed.

I also like the fact that there is a parallel drawn between the awkward Raj/Howard/Bernadette triad. These 3 similarly manipulate each other in unhealthy ways. The writers occasionally show Raj and Howard being closer than Howard and Bernadette or play with the dynamic of Raj fulfilling Bernadette’s emotional needs more than Howard. And much like they’ve played around with AU Sheldon/Penny, they’ve also played around with AU Bernadette/Raj. It doesn’t mean that the writers are slowly breaking up this couple and Bernadette and Raj are eloping in India. I think this episode highlights the fact that in groups of friends, and in this one in particular, there are alliances and bonds that are complicated and perhaps need to be addressed in healthy ways so everyone can move forward in their relationships. I hope this is headed somewhere good, and I’m not personally going to jump to any unsettling conclusions.

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22 minutes ago, stardustmelody said:

I am not sure I agree with this.  First off Leonard has been on the show since the pilot and it was always intended that Leonard and Penny would be the couple.  Penny was quite a different personality in the first five seasons and she went through a personality change in S6 and beyond.  Same with Sheldon.  So they can be altered and changed since the writers have taken them through a journey before.   Likewise Amy has been on since the end of S3 and she and Sheldon were both adolescents in development.  

Both Sheldon and Amy have grown together in many ways toward adult-hood although she a bit faster in some areas than him.  But she still shows signs of her inexperience shining through as well.   But that does not mean that they have to alter the essence of who they are.  They both still can be geniuses and have their superior overlord mentalities...which is who both were in early seasons.  But they both can grow up and become a loving couple as well and use the comedy through their experimentation and situations like they did in earlier seasons.  

Same with Leonard and Penny...they were much more loving in earlier seasons than they have been in more recent ones.   They may be harder to get there though because honestly I have never understood what makes them tick as a couple.   But somehow they can make it work and still have Penny be the shopaholic, the free-spirit that she is without having to diss Leonard week after week.   She can grow up and mature into a loving wife to him and still get into her "Lucille Ball" like messes to bring comedy back.   

I think they can still be who they are as people, but not keep them stifled and stunted, just change the comedy to lean toward situation again instead of all about relationship.   When it is focused on relationship it becomes mean and ends up with the mess we have now.   

I prefer the early versions of both characters tbh because I think they were more interesting to watch but of course you need to write some developments in 10 years. Anyway imo these 2 couples are never on the same page, or very rarely. That's probably why I don't ship romantic relationships on the show. They're not good writing love.

Edited by Cindi May

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1 minute ago, littleknee said:

I agree that this show often relies too much on telling about dynamics rather than showing them, but one good thing that comes out of this episode is that it’s not this weird hinted at undercurrent of unhealthy relationships, it’s stated outright and addressed by the characters. I hope this is leading to a resolution rather than this weird thing that reads like the subconscious of the writers poking through.

Excellent post.

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4 hours ago, 5Mississippis said:

From what we've been able to cobble together, this episode seems mindboggling and beyond ridiculous...

Our cliffhanger? I hope Leonard leaves both if them in 4A. 

Run, Leonard. Run.

Just this ?........

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31 minutes ago, littleknee said:

Also, I know that Sheldon/Penny is a touchy subject, hence the general uncomfortable-ness with this episode, but to me, Amy being a little insecure about her relationship with Sheldon in comparison to his relationship with others, is not really new. And it’s not just with Penny, it’s with Leonard too. There’s the season 7 fortune teller episode, the season 8 opener when she is frustrated that Sheldon called Leonard to pick him up instead of her, and the recent b-day party episode where she squabbles with Leonard over who knows Sheldon best. It’s something the writers have played with before that needs some addressing by Amy and Sheldon directly. Perhaps that’s where this is headed.

From the past experience, most of the time they just point out the problems and do nothing about it. Why point the problems out at all in the first place if they don't plan on resolving them? That'll just make people to question the relationships between the couples.

They does similar things with Lenny. Like in 9x12, Penny's talk with the psychologist was pretty disturbing IMO. But it went nowhere...Amy has been feeling insecure for two years and the writers did nothing to improve the situation.

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2 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

From the past experience, most of the time they just point out the problems and do nothing about it. Why point the problems out at all in the first place if they don't plan on resolving them? That'll just make people to question the relationships between the couples.

They does similar things with Lenny. Like in 9x12, Penny's talk with the psychologist was pretty disturbing IMO. But it went nowhere...Amy has been feeling insecure for two years and the writers did nothing to improve the situation.

That's a fair point! Maybe with 1-2 seasons left, they'll be forced to deal with the relationship rumblings they've dropped hints at and then frustratingly ignored for so long.

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1 hour ago, April said:

Apart from having this all suddenly blow up in one episode I'm not entirely sure what's so surprising about this. All these issues have been picked up on by us in the past weeks and months and discussed ad nauseam in this thread and many others. Every. Single. One. Of. Them. This latest episode now seems like the writers taking all of those things, crank them up to eleven so that even the last average Joe watching the show finally gets the memo as a preparation to whatever may come in the finale of the season.

(Of course all of that's just judging by the TR - Idk if the final episode will have the same vibe.)

Yup agreed lol. This season has been about change, fast and furious like. And we get to watch these characters try to navigate it all, and have their individual freak outs.

 Howardette are rid of Stuart, and we see Howardette adjust to his absence and actually discover they miss him. Which leads to them finally having a baby, and we watch Howard freak out about pending fatherhood while Bernie quickly sees the motherhood half of it (lifestyle change during pregnancy, gaining weight, etc). But in the end they embrace this new change in their lives and are eager for it.

Lenny are now a married couple after diving head first into the Vegas wedding. Penny has a new career, and one she doesn't like but realizes she needs in order to pay her bills (the cabin revelation). Penny is facing growing older and what all that means, and it isn't sitting well with her. She's not 20 anymore and for her it hits home, she has to grow up, and for some people that's a scary prospect. Penny has always been a free spirited gal before meeting Leonard--parties, multiple relationships, "making it big as an actress". She's now in her 30s, not an actress but is instead a sales rep (far cry from the glitzy glamour one would associate with show business), and is in a marriage. As a newlywed she's in that transition period where she can't afford to be that carefree single gal and has to put the relationship before all that now. Her moving out of 4A with Leonard would be that last straw, that last dose of reality that tells her the marriage is REAL. It's scary...I compare it to anyone who is a parent that remembers what it's like to bring your first born home from the hospital for the first time after a few days of the nursing staff and grandparents helping out. You get home in the quiet of your house and it hits you that "tag, you're it!" with everything from now on. Scared the hell out of me as a young man and new father!

Shamy this year saw real heartbreak for the first time (not just Amy disappointment but REAL hurt). Sheldon did some growing as did Amy. Both have now had sex for the first time. And they both now agree that their relationship is stronger than ever. The Lenny arrangement in 4A is a huge roadblock to them as they continue to explore the new changes. I believe Amy resents Lenny's interference in 4A and blames it for her inability to get closer with Sheldon, even being his roomie. Who can blame her. It's one thing for her BF to live with a longtime friend as a roomie, but to have another woman there as well? Doesn't matter if Penny is her bff, it's a level of intimacy that no gf is gonna care for. 

And Sheldon sees Leonard's continued presence in his life at 4A as a sort of life preserver, the last element of his single "game filled" bachelor life that he's known for a long time. Letting go of that lifesaver is a scary process for him. Sheldon enjoys his renewed relationship with Amy to be sure, but he wants to keep what he has in 4A too. He's going to have to face, like Penny, that you can't have it both ways and for the sake of his relationship with Amy he's gonna have to let Lenny go. 

I think as strange as the 4A arrangement is, and how necessary it is for that arrangement to end, the feelings Penny and Sheldon probably have are relatable on some level. Life can be scary, and they both are a bit immature emotionally and are facing change reluctantly and slowly. But it's coming to a head for them now, and I think the season finale will play this out.

...or not, lol! What do I know!

Edited by 2L344

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It's kind of ironic how come there wasn't a #PennyDeservesBetter when Leonard cheated on her?

Maybe because Leonard has gone out of his way to retify his mistake and proven time and time again his love. And penny what has she done for leonard lately? or since they got married.

#Leonarddeservebetter

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7 hours ago, wowbagger said:

firstly: Thanks to brilliantfool! I hope you had a smashing time!

now, on to the episode.

well, I am LOVING this great slobbery 'saisons Sept et huit, je t'aime', aren't you all?

Amy is jealous of Sheldon and Penny's Magical Speshul Bond? Oh, yes, of course. That festering jealousy that has only ever made an appearance in one episode of Season Seven, and never again-until, apparently, now. Sure, sure.

Amy manipulates Sheldon? Why hello there, table episode. Oh, how I loved you. How very much I adored your healthy, sweet natured, egalitarian dynamics.

Amy feels herself a martyr in her relationship and is only playing along with things about it that she professed to love? Charming. Yes, yes, show, I get that the 'faking it' is a nod to how foreplay-ish the Relationship Agreement is. It's only charming if we think of it as actual foreplay rather than your delightful trope of women suffering their menfolk's enthusiasms to get what they want. Lovely.

speaking of manipulation: Why, once again, is penny being shoved into a role ordinarily occupied by Amy? It is AMY who (sadly) manipulates Sheldon to get what she wants. Penny's role was to outright bully him. What the hell? And let us not get into the screaming idiocy of penny being the only one to get the hypochondriac, mysophobic Sheldon to take his medicine.

oh, and LEONARD is jealous of the magical speshul bond, now? Literally the ONE area where Leonard was not made to be needy and insecure regarding Penny was penny's relationship with Sheldon. So yes, absolutely, by all means, take that away from him.

but the magical speshul bond is twisted. Oh noes! Not twisted! Not the toothless vague affectionate magical speshul bond!

and just....the less said about Ugh, Raj, the better. Go fuck yourself, Raj.

but anyway, to review: Amy is a jealous, petty, manipulator displaying the borderline-abusive behaviour of wanting to isolate Sheldon from people he cares about. Penny is making deals with her brother/pet with no care for her husband. Leonard is an insecure wimp. Sheldon is a worryingly oblivious naif who is being played by the women in his life (for his own good, you understand). And all is well because of Howard's peanut allergy or something.

golf clap, show. Golf clap.

Lol !! I just want to say your post made me really laugh out loud !! Especially what you said about Sheldon being played by Penny and Amy.

Agree with you about Raj, they need to write him off or demote him to a recurring role; they'll save a lot on cast salary that way.

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1 hour ago, kitlovesjim said:

Oh poor Raj. First everyone hates Emily now Raj. The poor guy with no stable relatonship

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Who couldn't relate to Raj xD

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I can't but then I am not a total douche

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1 hour ago, Tonstar17 said:

Maybe because Leonard has gone out of his way to retify his mistake and proven time and time again his love. And penny what has she done for leonard lately? or since they got married.

#Leonarddeservebetter

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But if he had told her what happened two years earlier (or not at all) he would have spent his wedding night in 4b and no one may be talking about living arrangements. Leonard may have never left.

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Maybe because Leonard has gone out of his way to retify his mistake and proven time and time again his love. And penny what has she done for leonard lately? or since they got married.

#Leonarddeservebetter

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

But if he had told her what happened two years earlier (or not at all) he would have spent his wedding night in 4b and no one may be talking about living arrangements. Leonard may have never left.

Sometimes people keep secret because they are scared of losing that special person. How do we know that leonard wanted to tell her but kept bottling it and the longer you leave things the hard it becomes. Penny need to show she is invested like leonard does or walk. Leonard has proved its penny he wants and made a mistake but ppls will never let him forget that.

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#leonarddeservesbetter

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1 minute ago, Judith said:

One thing is for sure, the remaining episodes of this season will be very interesting...it seems like the ep that will come out of this TR will be too.

I don't know, they may never refer to this episode again, there were episodes were Penny treated Leonard like crap before and they were always forgotten, like when she made a fool of him on Wil Weaton's web show.

 

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So after reading the taping report a few times, I have a few thoughts...just my take on this...

The entire episode is about manipulation.  Sheldon manipulates Leonard via the RA...Penny manipulates Sheldon to get her way...Amy manipulates Sheldon by pretending to have liked the Relationship Agreement...Bernie manipulates Howard into treating Raj better.

Over the course of the episode, these manipulative behaviors are exposed.

I've never been a big believer in the Sheldon/Penny "special" relationship thing and now I am even more convinced that it does not exist,.  Penny has developed a manipulative coping mechanism for dealing with Sheldon....kindness, care and concern gets her what she needs from him (please note I am not condemning her for that).  When it comes to Leonard, she doesn't need to do that, she loves and trusts him, so she is free to be her true self with him

I think this is going to play out on screen way differently than it reads....thanks to BF for sharing with us.

 

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