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[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9


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18 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

Funny, I always thought she was manipulative. First thing that comes to mind is the table episode.

Then the episode in which she faked an illness.

Then the episode she experimented on Penny. The meme experiment.

Spaghetti and weaners for Sheldon and mario sound effects rather than dinner music.

I also thought there was a foundation for future manipulation when she experimented on a monkey and we/she saw Sheldon had exactly the same reactions as the test monkey.

 

She has been manipulative on a total of two occasions with Sheldon: table and the illness (the latter being more about milking it than true manipulation over their relationship). Versus all the other times where she clearly told him what she was going to do beforehand, like the neurobiological bag of tricks stuff with the spaghetti and hot dogs and the Super Mario music you mentioned, and all the other times she experimented like that on him, where Sheldon knew exactly what he was getting into. Doing social experiments on her friends is a totally different matter and it wasn't on Sheldon and their relationship, so it's not relevant to my comment about how honesty in her relationship with Sheldon was one of the main appeals of their dynamic to me. Also, the monkey video you linked is an incredible stretch to say that the joke there was that she was going to manipulate him in the future. It was just a joke over how Sheldon reacted like the monkey, nothing more, nothing less. 

19 minutes ago, brilliantfool said:

If it helps , I think it was more like "when we used to have our RA meetings, I used to not enjoy those as much as well" , it definitively wasn't "I hated them" or anything. And she said it very softly.

 

Anyway, just wanted to say, @koops , agree with you sooooo much on the coitus thing!!!

i hate this "once a year thing". I mean I prefer not to think about it ,  cause Amy seems happy, but when I do think about it , I hate it. I didn't expect sex to turn Sheldon into Howard, but I expected SOME change in him, if there isn't, what's the point ?

 

and you're so on to all the characters and personalities being intertwined now, I feel the same but I couldn't have said it so well myself.! But Sheldon needing someone to force him his medicine and Bernie suddenly becoming this sweet adorable mom to be and all her bitchiness just disappearing are the weirderst to me.

Thanks for the clarification, brilliantfool. The thing is, it would be fine if it had stopped at that (saying that she didn't enjoy them much) but implying she faked the opposite all this time just for the sake of a joke, to me, spoils a lot of what came beforehand. Having said that, I appreciate that she didn't say it in a dismissive manner.

8 minutes ago, 2L344 said:

I think Amy embraced the RA early in the relationship because it was a  written promise of things to come. But as Amy grew up (in a way, unfortunately) she outgrew it and saw it morenof a means to stifle the relationship by Sheldon. In my opinion she was trying to fool herself into believing the RA was something to be proud of and to embrace, because at the time its all she could lay claim to since the physical part and the intimacy she craved was progressing at a snail's pace.

When Sheldon took her on a double date with Lenny you can see some of that come out. In the car ride Sheldon compares the RA to a certain "contract" the 13 colonies entered and that relationship is as strong today as then. Amy gets super excited at hearing that and talks about her underwear catching fire lol...but IMO it wasnt because the RA rung her bells, it was because of the words and sentiment behind what Sheldon SAID.

Later when having dinner she brags about the score they got on the relationship test as being a testament to their relationship, but in the end she says she would love for Sheldon to talk to her like Leonard does to Penny, and you can clearly see a longing for something better in het face and in what she says.

Just my two cents

I disagree because I don't see any evidence on the show that has indicated Amy was fooling herself into liking the RA. I do not recall her ever once dissing the RA or complaining that it was restricting her while they had it in place (pre-breakup), other than one single mention of some "ridiculous contracts" in Spoiler Alert. That's 5 years where she was always shown as either embracing it, bragging about it, or using it to her advantage versus one line about "ridiculous contractS" (not even the RA, she mentions contracts in general - we know Sheldon has several so who knows if that was even about the RA per se). I also completely disagree on the take on First Pitch. To me that episode is a love-fest of Shamy's mutual love for bureaucracy and the more 'cerebral' aspects of relationships. Just because Amy in the end says she wishes Sheldon would occasionally say sweet things to her, it doesn't mean that everything else she expressed enthusiasm for throughout the episode, including the test, was something she was fooling herself into. There's nothing that says she can't be enthusiastic over their RA and tests as well as wishing Sheldon would say sweet things once in a while. And she doesn't just get hot and bothered by the colonies comment, she also says earlier on in the episode that it's "better than hot, it's binding", and that was most definitely not about the sentiment but about the bureaucracy. Would have she started the RA herself if it hadn't been Sheldon's idea? Maybe not, because it is true that she's never been as neurotic as Sheldon. But that doesn't mean she wasn't into it, and that was part of the joke: nobody cared for Sheldon's contracts but her.

I just don't understand why it's so hard, despite all the evidence in canon, to see/write Amy's enthusiasm over this type of stuff as genuine, especially considering she was created as a female Sheldon and that the whole point of why they worked as a couple is how similar they were. I just keep circling back to the issue I mentioned in my original post. Hollywood writers and, consequently, their viewers, find it really hard to stick to the idea of an eccentric and quirky female, so that they either eventually settle into writing her along more conventional lines (which is what we are seeing with Amy, unfortunately) because it's an easier template to follow. And so we just end up assuming that everything quirky and eccentric isn't really genuine but just a way to appease her eccentric male partner. To me, the reason why Amy is now given lines like this week's and who knows what else in the future, is because eccentric females sadly never seem to stick, unless they're one-off or guest characters ala Beverly or Leslie. Another area where it's really noticeable with Amy is her dialogue, which used to be packed with complex jargon and words, ala Sheldon, and now isn't anymore. Bernadette (sweet Bernadette who couldn't get a joke for the life of her when she first came on), suffered the same fate. Although not as noticeably because she wasn't as off the wall as Amy to start with.

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4 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

The reality of the Lenny situation is that Penny had given up a lot more in her life than Leonard has. They had an old season 3 episode when Penny had her friends over to watch the football game. what happened to those friends? people say that Amy and Bernie are her friends. But raj and howard found Amy and penny only brought Bernadette in to double date with Howard. Her whole life is related to leonard. But no one seems to notice that.

True but that's normal, none of my party buddy's from my early twenties were still around when I hit thirty

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1 hour ago, camelliayao said:

 

(Dang quote option!  Not quoting here but.....)

A very interesting discussion this afternoon.  I think that this all begs the question of "to whom are TPTB writing?"  I think right now, their preferred audience are the casual viewers, who are not as invested; who are not as aware of (or who don't care about) canon. I think their eye is on the dollar sign and the hope that the automatic Season 11 renewal will be there and perhaps another negotiation with the cast for at least a Season 12.  Interested to read feedback on this.  Anyone?

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20 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

The reality of the Lenny situation is that Penny had given up a lot more in her life than Leonard has. They had an old season 3 episode when Penny had her friends over to watch the football game. what happened to those friends? people say that Amy and Bernie are her friends. But raj and howard found Amy and penny only brought Bernadette in to double date with Howard. Her whole life is related to leonard. But no one seems to notice that.

I'm noticing that for years and somehow, there was never an opportunity to bring that up, I'm glad somebody did. She had a few episodes showed she even has a friends outside the group, really like two? I hate to bring another Friends reference but look at Joey and show's approach towards his acting career. So much funny moments with this, while Penny got what? One commercial and a play? Seems so little. No difference with her career now really. Her world looks like to be related to Leonard and the group. Seems like a shame for character of main three IMHO. I don't really know if that's a "symptom" of her giving up her life as much as writers usual choice, to pick one of the couple to be the "boost" for the other to progress and change and forgetting aside this, person also should have personality and life on his/her's own. 

Edited by tallin
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8 minutes ago, koops said:

 

I disagree because I don't see any evidence on the show that has indicated Amy was fooling herself into liking the RA. I do not recall her ever once dissing the RA or complaining that it was restricting her while they had it in place (pre-breakup), other than one single mention of some "ridiculous contracts" in Spoiler Alert. That's 5 years where she was always shown as either embracing it, bragging about it, or using it to her advantage versus one line about "ridiculous contractS" (not even the RA, she mentions contracts in general - we know Sheldon has several so who knows if that was even about the RA per se). I also completely disagree on the take on First Pitch. To me that episode is a love-fest of Shamy's mutual love for bureaucracy and the more 'cerebral' aspects of relationships. Just because Amy in the end says she wishes Sheldon would occasionally say sweet things to her, it doesn't mean that everything else she expressed enthusiasm for throughout the episode, including the test, was something she was fooling herself into. There's nothing that says she can't be enthusiastic over their RA and tests as well as wishing Sheldon would say sweet things once in a while. And she doesn't just get hot and bothered by the colonies comment, she also says earlier on in the episode that it's "better than hot, it's binding", and that was most definitely not about the sentiment but about the bureaucracy. Would have she started the RA herself if it hadn't been Sheldon's idea? Maybe not, because it is true that she's never been as neurotic as Sheldon. But that doesn't mean she wasn't into it, and that was part of the joke: nobody cared for Sheldon's contracts but her.

 

Well like I said earlier, I do believe Amy embraced the RA at first...but as time passes we see time and again how Sheldon uses it control behavior to HIS liking and only grudgingly participates in thoae things that benefit Amy. She continually reminds him of his obligations and his compliance, whether date nights or kissing or caring for her when she is ill, is done so with complaints or half hearted behavior on his part. Moreover, the RA was a point of ridicule by the others and this did not go unnoticed Im sure by Amy. The D&D game was an example of how Amy was acutely aware of how the others perceived their relationship, and the RA was a part of that.

I concede that when I say Amy was probably fooling herself at times in believing the RA wasnt her cup of tea, it is never spelled out in those words to be sure, but like a lot of things we do as fans of this show, Im using my own observations about what I see, and a lot of what I DONT see off camera, as a means to form my opinion :)

We can agree and disagree on that, totally fine with it! I do sympathize with the debates going on right now and have been frustrated myself this season on the direction of some of the episodes. I too miss the "old" Amy sometimes and enjoy watching the old seasons to get my fill of the characters when they were newer.

Its just that they have evolved into different people over the years (Howard is certainly a changed man) and I try to roll with it as best I can!

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17 minutes ago, hokie3457 said:

(Dang quote option!  Not quoting here but.....)

A very interesting discussion this afternoon.  I think that this all begs the question of "to whom are TPTB writing?"  I think right now, their preferred audience are the casual viewers, who are not as invested; who are not as aware of (or who don't care about) canon. I think their eye is on the dollar sign and the hope that the automatic Season 11 renewal will be there and perhaps another negotiation with the cast for at least a Season 12.  Interested to read feedback on this.  Anyone?

Unfortunately I think you are right and it has been trending that way since around season 7 it is no longer a sitcom it is now a money machine pure and simple.

They write for surprises and shock value, things that will get attention.

The funny thing to me is while it is the highest rated show now back in the day it's ratings would have it flirting with cancellation

Edited by JE7
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1 hour ago, koops said:

I completely disagree with all of this and that's not the show I watched all these years. Amy has called the RA "romantic" and "better than hot, binding". She's used it plenty of times to her advantage and there's stuff in there that most definitely stems from her and not Sheldon. She's bragged in front of her friends about how she and Sheldon have things figured out in their RA that her friends have not. Hardly seems to me like Amy never loved these things in the first place. She called the "contracts" stupid once versus all these other instances indicating the opposite. 

As far as FWF, she was involved in every single episode and the one she couldn't be in, she skyped in to find out how it was going. She threw up a whole fight versus Wheaton because he was ruining the episode with his acting. She contributed ideas from day one and was so excited about being added to the title. Sheldon himself called it "their baby", which is hardly something he would do if it were all his doing. 

The stuff she put up with for his own sake, it was made clear she did. Like his sci-fi shows and comic books. I never expect Amy to share every single of Sheldon's interests, but it's always been pretty clear to me that the RA and FWF were the two main things she was shown repeatedly being a big part of, not just a passive one. This is all stuff that's canon. The Amy I'm describing is not an Amy I had in my head, it's an Amy I saw on the show and an Amy I got into because I saw on the show. I was not hallucinating or idealizing anything. If I had ever seen an Amy who just put up with things for Sheldon's sake while instead she would have much preferred to be sitting at a candlelit table, drinking wine and gazing into each other's eyes, I would have never been a fan of hers, let alone their relationship. 

1 hour ago, April said:

The other instances aren't exactly Amy adoring all of the RA unconditionally though. Yes, she called it romantic but by the end of the same episode she wondered if she should have gotten a lawyer. And yes, she called it "Better than hot, binding." but the "hot" was prompted by Penny and the part that she was gleeful about was the "binding" because it was all about how Sheldon had to make up for all the dates he missed while he was away. Nobody is suggesting that she hated the RA from start to finish. But as camelliayao said, what she loves about the RA and all those negotiations is that she can get some "benefits" from them and that has constantly been shown.

The show is now merely suggesting that Amy found some of the meetings a bit boring sometimes. I'm sure they also had more interesting meetings ever so often. She surely had a ball with him making plans who to sell out to the new evil overlord in next apocalypse or something. But the idea of Amy kinda sorta not being into §§ and legal speak? I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And it doesn't strike me as contradicting anything from the past.

Well I think April pretty much said what I wanted to say...

The time she thought RA was romantic was from Season 5 when she had an "official" boyfriend for the first time in her life. Pretty much everything that involved Sheldon was romantic to her at that time. She was just too excited. But even then after she calmed down and became rational again, she thought she should have hired a lawyer.

And the time she called it "better than hot, it's binding"...Well I think it supports what I said because as April said, "hot" was something Penny suggested. What Amy loved was "binding", which means according to their RA, Sheldon was obligated to make up for the missing dates. And that was something that could benefit Amy.

As for FWF, again I'm not saying she hates it; I just think she's not as enthusiastic about it as Sheldon. Sheldon loves it mostly because he loves facts with flags and he loves teaching people lol. But Amy, she likes FWF because first, she likes facts with flags or at least she doesn't find them borning; second this is something she and Sheldon could do together. Same when Sheldon adds her name to the title, she's happy not because she thinks "finally I get some credit for a show that I'm the producer and the camera man of", but because Sheldon includes her in something that means a lot to him, something that they do together.

I think in relationships people do things they don't like "that much" all the time. I'm not enthusiastic about sci-fi movies but I watch them anyway with my boyfriend. They are good, entertaining and I always have a good time. But I don't list them as "things I love to do" or "my hobbies". Sheldon loooooovvvvves contracts. They even turn him on lol. Amy has normal feelings about contracts.

And the Amy from the show preferred to go to a bar and to have a good time with her girlfriends in season 4, the Amy from the show was kind of manipulating from the beginning (403), the Amy from the show called RA stupid back in season 6, the Amy from the show wanted to have romantic dinners on Valentine's day, the Amy from the show loved the idea of having a boyfriend so much that she went out with Stuart once. To me the Amy from the show has always been adorable, kind, intellegent, but she's also vainglorious, immature, cunning. She has the nerd side but she also loves things that are very "girly". She wants traditional romance. So yeah she wants to drink wine and gaze into each other's eyes with her boyfriend. This is the Amy from the show.

The Amy from the show was introduced as the female version of Sheldon, but she's totally not.

Maybe I chose the wrong words in my previous post. I think some of us love the Amy in those moments they love and ignore the Amy in those moments they hate. I don't think the writers do a perfect job in portraying Amy either, but to say Amy's character is ruinned is a little over dramatic.

Edited by camelliayao
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15 minutes ago, tallin said:

 

I'm noticing that for years and somehow, there was never an opportunity to bring that up, I'm glad somebody did. She had a few episodes showed she even has a friends outside the group, really like two? I hate to bring another Friends reference but look at Joey and show's approach towards his acting career. So much funny moments with this, while Penny got what? One commercial and a play? Seems so little. No difference with her career now really. Her world looks like to be related to Leonard and the group. Seems like a shame for character of main three IMHO. I don't really know if that's a "symptom" of her giving up her life as much as writers usual choice, to pick one of the couple to be the "boost" for the other to progress and change and forgetting aside this, person also should have personality and life on his/her's own. 

Penny is definitely the one that has changed the most but her moving away from her previous friends sort of makes sense.  She came to California with Kurt so her friends were probably his friends, since she dumped Kurt and became ruined for dumb guys those friends are gone.  The friends she had after that were probably from her waitress work, but then she sort dumped them when she left, remember her telling Leonard that she said as leaving 'Bye bitches, see you at the Oscars'.  She seems to have purposely moved into Leonard's world, it is definitely a big change but she was not forced to do it.  Also her new friends are probably at her new work, like Dan, who I think would be funny for Leonard to meet because they seem very similar.

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1 minute ago, SRAM said:

Penny is definitely the one that has changed the most but her moving away from her previous friends sort of makes sense.  She came to California with Kurt so her friends were probably his friends, since she dumped Kurt and became ruined for dumb guys those friends are gone.  The friends she had after that were probably from her waitress work, but then she sort dumped them when she left, remember her telling Leonard that she said as leaving 'Bye bitches, see you at the Oscars'.  She seems to have purposely moved into Leonard's world, it is definitely a big change but she was not forced to do it.  Also her new friends are probably at her new work, like Dan, who I think would be funny for Leonard to meet because they seem very similar.

Sure but even if all of it's true why not give Penny a moment with her new friends? Football game, even introducing some of them to the gang, why not? I'm always up for a good guest star. I know nobody forced her, it just seems to me that while Leonard is still enjoying his "alone friends" time, playing his video games, having a work related plots Penny in comparison just hardly  do something, that's not Leonard related. I'd definitely like to see more of that. 

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10 minutes ago, tallin said:

Sure but even if all of it's true why not give Penny a moment with her new friends? Football game, even introducing some of them to the gang, why not? I'm always up for a good guest star. I know nobody forced her, it just seems to me that while Leonard is still enjoying his "alone friends" time, playing his video games, having a work related plots Penny in comparison just hardly  do something, that's not Leonard related. I'd definitely like to see more of that. 

really??

I thought the last few seasons have focused a lot more on Penny's work and her career than they have ever for Leonard's career.....

and penny had hardly to do something that is not Leonard related ??? really ??? I thought she hardly had something to do which is actually Leonard related ..... 

for Leonard most of the time his work stories are with Sheldon.... and is often overshadowed by Sheldon......

Edited by vasu

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4 minutes ago, vasu said:

really??

I thought the last few seasons have focused a lot more on Penny's work and her career than they have ever for Leonard's career.....

for Leonard most of the time it is with Sheldon.... and is often overshadowed by Sheldon......

Sure I'd like more of Leonard's work plots as I'd like more science in show in general. But still he made a huge discovery, is showing at work or in science related plots,giving ideas on regular basis and at least shows his abilities. I can't even remember the last time Penny was showed at work. But it's true I didn't saw episodes more than once so my memory might not be flawless. 

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26 minutes ago, tallin said:

Sure I'd like more of Leonard's work plots as I'd like more science in show in general. But still he made a huge discovery, is showing at work or in science related plots,giving ideas on regular basis and at least shows his abilities. I can't even remember the last time Penny was showed at work. But it's true I didn't saw episodes more than once so my memory might not be flawless. 

That would have been the Dr. Gallo episode, Penny was trying to get a sales call with her

It also showed she will quite happily use Leonard's emotional problems for her own gain

Edited by JE7
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14 minutes ago, JE7 said:

That would have been the Dr. Gallo episode, Penny was trying to get a sales call with her

It also showed she will quite happily use Leonard's emotional problems for her own gain

Oh Yes. Forgot about that one. I was too busy banging my head against the wall while Penny officially joined BBT's "I'm my boyfriend's mother" exclusive club. :cool:

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19 minutes ago, JE7 said:

That would have been the Dr. Gallo episode, Penny was trying to get a sales call with her

It also showed she will quite happily use Leonard's emotional problems for her own gain

wasn't it leonard too? he went along with it. More my point is all Leonard and penny have both made choices in their lives. Penny's choices have been ignored but leonard's have been considered wimpy and have gotten him a lot of sympathy on this forum.

Edited by Chrismo

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7 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

wasn't leonard too? he went along with it. More my point is all Leonard and penny have both made choices in their lives. Penny's choices have been ignored but leonard's have been considered wimpy and have gotten him a lot of sympathy on this forum.

not from me though...

a lier/cheater who kissed another girl and waits for 2 years to tell her.... will never get any sympathy.....

and all the stuff leonard had done related to penny's career would not have endeared him to anyone (IMO ).... neither do his constant groveling and insecure behaviour....

and if Penny does not care... why should I care as a viewer....

Edited by vasu

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1 minute ago, vasu said:

not from me though...

a lier/cheater who kissed another girl and waits for 2 years to tell her.... will never get any sympathy.....

and all the stuff leonard had done related to penny's career would not have endeared him to anyone (IMO ).... neither do his constant groveling and insecure behaviour....

I've watched a lot of TV for many years. I've never seen a character who's been perfect or never made mistakes.

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8 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

I've watched a lot of TV for many years. I've never seen a character who's been perfect or never made mistakes.

I never said I wanted leonard to behave perfectly....

but over the series he has become worse and worse..... also the fact that he is rarely funny......also the fact that Penny often gets irritated by him.....

if penny would have shown some sympathy or affection to leonard .. may be I would have liked leonard's character more..... but she does...so it feels his whinyness is only irritating.....

 

for example.... the writers want to feel sorry for Sheldon continously... look at the apology episode for example..... and all the episodes after amy dumped him... episode after episode was .. feel sorry for sheldon... feel sorry for sheldon......

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The discussions now have a whiff of the postmortem. Hmmm. 

For me, fundamentally, their premise is shot. There is no natural reason to keep their three lead characters penned up together, but penning up their three lead characters is the show. Hogans Heros had a natural reason, as did M*A*S*H. These folks don't.

Still, zombified premises do live on. Maybe there is a chance for a miracle cure - once the show has permission to gracefully retire they may find new purpose. However, I don't think there will be DNR order for this.  I'd instead expect the deployment of extreme measures to retain the semblance of animation, but it will be the "machine" keeping the show going.

It's a commercial venture that makes a product that still sells. While there is a market they will continue.  The contortions will increase. Or the deck chairs reshuffled. And expectations will have to be lowered.

They should work on their exit strategy for next season and pull the plug. Maybe that prospect will inspire them to renewed heights and they go out on an upward trajectory. But 11 seasons? I'll probably just read about it and then show up for the finale out of morbid curiosity.

But it was so good, once upon a time.

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All arguments aside, I agree with Lionne-now, for every interpretation or argument there is an equally strong opposite one. And that doesn't just apply to the show, but to the discussions on this forum too. 

 
 
One moment I'm reading a well thought out post about how the show-especially Amy's character-has gone to crap. And I actually grow to believe and it actually feels scary at times LOL Then I read equally thought out post about how things have never been that perfect anyway and that it is silly to dismiss the entire show and the character development based on the few episodes.
 
 
I think it all started with the break up. The reason for it was way too trivial, both the actual reason for the break up and the reason for Amy to have "some time alone". Amy has been more "ordinary" then Sheldon for years, and after the break up they upped that to eleven in order to resort to cliche post-break up storylines (dating other people, jealousy). More normal/ordinary=not so OOC to have cliche points assigned to her character. But still OOC. Why combine cliche with Shamy, I have no idea. I hated Amy during that storyline, I have to admit. But mostly because that part was OOC and underdeveloped. We never actually got to see what she actually desired, it was almost all about overreacting and sexual frustration. And their relationship is-yes, is, not was-so much more. And if there were serious relationships problems, they were-or should have been-more serious than that.
 
 
I am not that bothered by the manipulation part, because it actually does work the best for Sheldon and he even acknowledges it and doesn't care... I only disliked it in "The Fish Guts Displacement".
 
 
Anyway... I'm in between. If the writers somehow managed to write themselves out of that contrived, OOC break up storyline, maybe they can fix this. They had episodes like the latest one before ("The Intimacy Acceleration") and it has made no impact on the long run... yet. We'll see. I still have hope.
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I guess I must be too simple-minded because I don't see anything wrong with the show right now, except that they are kind of in a pre-finale "lull" and I assume that will pick up by the end of the season. But what do I know?

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