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[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9

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14 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

But Penny had a financial advisor and credit card debt was unknown to Leonard. So to me that's a trade off with the hiding money (the horror) and sexual favor ( with SO). As to Leonard's cheating I get your point bu the cheating was never on Penny and that should have been a revelation. Letting the cheating go by made no sense to me. The writing in general has been awful this season overall. With the Lenny storyline, the Shamy storyline, and the Raj mess IMO Molaro should be embarrassed at this point.

Oh, I think the show's had it myself. I'm watching out of habit and faint hope that Sheldon may show some sexual interest in Amy, but even that seems unlikely as the Season nears it's end.  That's why I think Leonard's parents example will be the catalyst to bring about a change so that Season 10 will be able to explore Shamy's sex life.

2 hours ago, Chrismo said:

But does Penny know that? Has Penny ever tricked Leonard? Wasn't Leonard's  mom awful? Again if he had said nothing to Howard what would of happened? Ironically Bernadette told Penny about him tricking her into sex but said nothing about Mandy.

I'm sure Penny has tricked Leonard plenty of times.

Yes, Leonard's mother is (delightfully) awful....and hallelujah for that! She's a fabulous villain!

If he hadn't bragged to Howard then Penny would've been none the wiser.

Bernie told Penny because it was ongoing and Penny had the right to know that she was being played. Why she kept sctum about Mandy is anyone's guess.

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45 minutes ago, ATOB said:

Your spouse hiding money and deceiving you to gain sexual favour are not IMO "minor things". I suspect she let the cheating go because this was not new to her, she knew this aspect of his character, indeed she had been used as counsel to advise him on his infidelity previously and accepts it as part of his make-up. However, being used in this way (the sex) and being deliberately deceived (the money) are revelations and she reacted accordingly.

Yes, I also think Leonard's father will be shown as submissive, we'll find out soon enough.

You mean like how Penny hid how much she made and hid all her credit card debt?    Why is Leonard singled out for this.  Not only that, but somehow after Leonard found out,Penny gets condescending towards Leonard about how much she made, something she didn't tell Leonard (deceiving).  Which Leonard knows about an accepts as it's part of her make up, look at how she lied to her father.  

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15 minutes ago, ATOB said:

Oh, I'm not saying it wasn't a mean thing for Penny to tease Leonard. I think what happens on here is that if you call one side out then people assume you're blind to the faults of the other side. That's actually not the case.

We don't know if Penny was or wasn't withholding sex but, regardless, it doesn't sanction tricking someone in having sex with you if they are. It's not your right to do that. Why do you think withholding sex means you get a green-light to get laid by trickery if you are clever enough?

The problem started with Penny having the book to begin with. As someone else also mentioned she had other options in books. Not only that Beverly made Penny cry in season 2 and in season 3 told her and Leonard that Penny's job prospects weren't good so don't make her responsible for her own orgasms.(something like that). At this point Penny should not like Beverly. Instead she picks her book that belittles Leonard. penny should feel bad about that and  she did. Doing what Leonard wanted was probably fair. The thing was he took it too far. But Leonard in season 5 admitted going along with her choice of dating events so to ensure he was getting sex. It could also be said that it was part trickery and part stupidity on Penny's part. Bernadette saw right thru Howard doing the same tactics. I could see being  mad at Leonard but she really should have been more mad at herself. Bringing in Beverly made sense that it ended the storyline but the storyline itself was more of the problem

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3 minutes ago, ATOB said:

The picture @djsurrey posted was of frowny-faced Penny, not frowny-faced Leonard. Hope that clears things up.

I suspect you are confusing feminism with misandry. They are not the same thing.  Feminism pertains to equality of the sexes. Misandry is hatred of men. A feminist see herself as equal to a man and this works both ways, one side is not more "equal", the ambition is to obtain parity. Why not have a Google?

picture was of penny.....but post was about two married people....and yet you only took the penny side of it....

I know the difference... but I just don't see it......... especially here....

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54 minutes ago, vasu said:

oh really ?? she was used to infidelity but not the deceiving to gain sexual favour... if I remember Leonard told her earlier in season 5??? that he used to do a lot of things he hated because he wanted to have sex...... 

and Penny we all know uses sex to her own advantage... and Penny would'nt even tell Leonard she was going to quit her job...that she had a guy to do her finances.... and also secretly goes behind Leonard's back and talks to sheldon and gets him to do favors for her and her only in regards to RA....

And if I was arguing that Penny is wholly right and Leonard is wholly wrong then perhaps I would try to spin her behavior, but that's not what is happening here and once again we find ourselves in agreement.

7 minutes ago, vasu said:

picture was of penny.....but post was about two married people....and yet you only took the penny side of it....

I know the difference... but I just don't see it......... especially here....

The comparible pictures were smily bright Penny and then frowny-faced Penny. Leonard was not in the first picture so no comparison to be made.

51 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

I was taking about her bright smile and her frown. Married people see each other not only at their best peppy bubbly times but when they are sick, tired, disappointed and grumpy times too. So the comedy throws a light on that.

Vasu, note the word "her".

21 minutes ago, Tensor said:

You mean like how Penny hid how much she made and hid all her credit card debt?    Why is Leonard singled out for this.  Not only that, but somehow after Leonard found out,Penny gets condescending towards Leonard about how much she made, something she didn't tell Leonard (deceiving).  Which Leonard knows about an accepts as it's part of her make up, look at how she lied to her father.  

As I said above.  This is not a case of one person being 100% right and another being 100% wrong.

Why do you think I'm blinkered and unable to see Penny's faults? Each of them having faults does not cancel out the wrong-doing of the other.

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24 minutes ago, Chrismo said:

The problem started with Penny having the book to begin with. As someone else also mentioned she had other options in books. Not only that Beverly made Penny cry in season 2 and in season 3 told her and Leonard that Penny's job prospects weren't good so don't make her responsible for her own orgasms.(something like that). At this point Penny should not like Beverly. Instead she picks her book that belittles Leonard. penny should feel bad about that and  she did. Doing what Leonard wanted was probably fair. The thing was he took it too far. But Leonard in season 5 admitted going along with her choice of dating events so to ensure he was getting sex. It could also be said that it was part trickery and part stupidity on Penny's part. Bernadette saw right thru Howard doing the same tactics. I could see being  mad at Leonard but she really should have been more mad at herself. Bringing in Beverly made sense that it ended the storyline but the storyline itself was more of the problem

Penny didn't realise Leonard was pretending to like things just to have sex with her, again another relevation. There wasn't any trickery on her part, just like she didn't realise that she never ever did anything that Amy wanted to do on their girls nights either. It just didn't occur to her. She enjoyed doing those things so assumed they did too. 

Yes, she could've picked another book, it would've been kinder, but I'm not here telling you Penny is always kind. Sometimes she's unkind.

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19 minutes ago, ATOB said:

As I said above.  This is not a case of one person being 100% right and another being 100% wrong.

Why do you think I'm blinkered and unable to see Penny's faults?

Because all I see are comments specifically directed at Leonard, without any mention of the same behavior in Penny.  I'm sure you can see Penny's faults, but that isn't apparent to me in your comments.

19 minutes ago, ATOB said:

Each of them having faults does not cancel out the wrong-doing of the other.

Of course it doesn't.  However, when only one is getting excoriated for behavior the other one also indulges in, the argument seems specious.  

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1 minute ago, Tensor said:

 

Because all I see are comments specifically directed at Leonard, without any mention of the same behavior in Penny.  I'm sure you can see Penny's faults, but that isn't apparent to me in your comments.

Of course it doesn't.  However, when only one is getting excoriated for behavior the other one also indulges in, the argument seems specious.  

It's turned into more, but it started out as my opinion (and that's all it is, an opinion) about where I thought the line "you probably deserved it" came from.  If Leonard had never tricked her into sex then I guess I'd also be here saying she's a nasty bit of work along with the Penny haters on here. 

I'm not a Penny hater, nor a Leonard hater. They are both portrayed as human and fallible IMO and I actually see the opposite of what you're accusing me of all the time on here; Leonard can do no wrong,  Penny's a b!tch, two wrongs make a right. As I see it, Leonard is often wrong, so is Penny, and both of them treating each other badly doesn't excuse the behavior of the other.

If you want me to list all the crappy things Penny's done then it'll have to wait till tomorrow, sleep is finally threatening as the birds start their dawn chorus....typical! 

 

G'night / G'morning!

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2 minutes ago, ATOB said:

If you want me to list all the crappy things Penny's done then it'll have to wait till tomorrow, sleep is finally threatening as the birds start their dawn chorus....typical! 

 

G'night / G'morning!

Nah, you don't have to.  I can list all of them myself, as I can list Leonard's.   I just don't see her saying that because of what happened two years ago.  She's been rather snarky all season, and if that is the reason, and she is going to continue to do that, after two years, I don't see why she would stay with him.  

You can wait until tomorrow to answer this.... :shy:

Night/Morning G. 

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2 hours ago, Jonny83 said:

Raj is getting away with a lot and I am surprised he hasn't been called out yet on it. In particular the women in the group really should be telling him some home truths but instead they seem to be encouraging him more than anything.

I chalk it up to the same behavior and lack of intervention ( and at times indifference) the gang showed in the Shamy break up arc.  Kinda weird to see but I guess the writers want to advance their plots at times without the pesky meddlesome of the friends lol. I found it frustrating to see Amy trying to line up a date for Raj on FWF right after he dumps one gf for another interest, only to try to run back to the first. Really Amy??

Maybe Im not being fair--the gals DID offer advice regarding Emily and that VDay gift, but other than that theyve been kinda weird about it all...

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24 minutes ago, 2L344 said:

I chalk it up to the same behavior and lack of intervention ( and at times indifference) the gang showed in the Shamy break up arc.  Kinda weird to see but I guess the writers want to advance their plots at times without the pesky meddlesome of the friends lol. I found it frustrating to see Amy trying to line up a date for Raj on FWF right after he dumps one gf for another interest, only to try to run back to the first. Really Amy??

Maybe Im not being fair--the gals DID offer advice regarding Emily and that VDay gift, but other than that theyve been kinda weird about it all...

Yeah, I find the similar behavior odd at least when Amy after Leonard cheated basically backed him up, not sure if she would be as forgiving if it was Sheldon making this "mistake in a weak moment." 

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2 hours ago, ATOB said:
3 hours ago, djsurrey said:

I was taking about her bright smile and her frown. Married people see each other not only at their best peppy bubbly times but when they are sick, tired, disappointed and grumpy times too. So the comedy throws a light on that.

Vasu, note the word "her".

Of course I'm using the word her. Who first noticed the other in 1.01?

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6 hours ago, nibbler747 said:

I would agree that there is sexism both ways on this show.  Too much "stereotypical" male/female behaviour.

That's probably how we got that Leonard trying to trick Penny into sex plot to begin with. Penny seems to like sex, there is really no reason she would "withhold" it when nothing bad has even happened, but this is a sitcom (and not Married with Children), so the husband wants sex and the wife doesn't give it to him because that's how men and women be, amirite? Who cares who the characters actually are. That plot seems pretty much the result of someone sleepwalking through the writing process.

Of course, for me, the episode that buried Lenny harder than any Mandy-kiss could ever hope to do (and trust me, I judge Leonard for that more harshly than many) was the Ornitophobia Diffusion. Every person who wants to argue that Leonard appreciates Penny for nothing but her looks, search no further. And yes, obviously everyone pretends to like things they don't for their loved ones every once in a while (although usually also because they actually like them and want to share nice experiences with them or not ruin their good time with negativity). But the way it was presented, it was really Leonard finding every part of what Penny does, likes and consequently is as nothing but obstacles that stand in the way of him getting some; not to mention every little favour he does her (letting her eat the little crispy fries) and every apology he gave her as not the result of affection, but because he wants sex. This is one of those episodes I have to actively forget when I try to like Leonard because otherwise I'm gonna start seeing him buying her a car and paying her rent/food in a very different light.

Disclaimer: I actually think Lenny can be a fun relationship, which is why this episode annoys me so much.

Edited by A.D.A.
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Never got why ppl.think.Leonard appreciates Penny just for her looks. Really? When you spend so many years with someone. Their has to be more to a person then just sex. Is twisting things to suit their pre concieved notions. And yeah sure one can go from that episode Leonard manipulated Penny to get sex. So what. He thinks shes hot. Lol Is that a crime? Are we suddenly suggesting every intersecting interaction lenny hv had for nearly a decade now. Has always been Leonard just wants sex. Because of one isolated instance or moment. Sure that's your argument, and your anti biast.

Your gonna highlight that. Doesn't make it true. Is Penny a slut because she has a very promiscuous past?  Is that all she is? No of course not. They are all flawed. But they both have more redeeming  qualities that outweigh their shortcomings and flaws. I think that's why ppl love Lenny. Its realistic. I just fail to see Leonard as a bad guy, cos he took advantage of Penny for sex one time. I always think bk to Middle Earth. He had a chance to bed drunk Penny. Forever be known aa the guy who just appreciates Pennys looks. But he diddnt. Since then no matter hpw many times these day's they put Leonard under a bus. Leonard to me aell always be the flawed hero. With a heart of gold. Hes not perfect. But I know and trust he loves Penny all of her. I mean honestly its almost like ppl are saying Leonard's Howard lol. Howard was only into Penny for her looks not Leonard. Leonard wants to share his life with Penny. Wants kids. Its time to let the past go.

Edited by 3ku11
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40 minutes ago, A.D.A. said:

...the Ornitophobia Diffusion. Every person who wants to argue that Leonard appreciates Penny for nothing but her looks, search no further.

How about the tag in 1.01 where Leonard says their children will be smart an beautiful and yet he hardly knows Penny yet.

 

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16 hours ago, djsurrey said:

How about the tag in 1.01 where Leonard says their children will be smart an beautiful and yet he hardly knows Penny yet.

 

Does that mean Leonard is shallow because he fell in love at first sight? Lol. Oh My god Leonard your a monster. 

Edited by Tensor
Removed comment about what others can post.
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23 minutes ago, 3ku11 said:

Never got why ppl.think.Leonard appreciates Penny just for her looks. Really? When you spend so many years with someone. Their has to be more to a person then just sex. Is twisting things to suit their pre concieved notions. And yeah sure one can go from that episode Leonard manipulated Penny to get sex. So what. He thinks shes hot. Lol Is that a crime? Are we suddenly suggesting every intersecting interaction lenny hv had for nearly a decade now. Has always been Leonard just wants sex. Because of one isolated instance or moment. Sure that's your argument, and your anti biast.

Your gonna highlight that. Doesn't make it true. Is Penny a slut because she has a very promiscuous past?  Is that all she is? No of course not. They are all flawed. But they both have more redeeming  qualities that outweigh their shortcomings and flaws. I think that's why ppl love Lenny. Its realistic. I just fail to see Leonard as a bad guy, cos he took advantage of Penny for sex one time. I always think bk to Middle Earth. He had a chance to bed drunk Penny. Forever be known aa the guy who just appreciates Pennys looks. But he diddnt. Since then no matter hpw many times these day's they put Leonard under a bus. Leonard to me aell always be the flawed hero. With a heart of gold. Hes not perfect. But I know and trust he loves Penny all of her.

I mean, I'm not arguing that because as I said, I like Lenny and dislike that episode. But in the Ornitophobia episode, yes, that is literally what he said. And it wasn't just one moment, he described it as their whole relationship being one occasion after the other where every single nice thing he ever did for her was to get sex. That doesn't speak of someone who appreciates their partner for anything else but superficial things (which is why I think that was a badly written episode - case in point also the bird subplot - because I do think there is now more to Lenny, even if it started out as a superficial attraction on Leonard's part, and no, I don't think there is anything wrong with that being the starting point).

Edited by A.D.A.
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6 hours ago, 2L344 said:

I chalk it up to the same behavior and lack of intervention ( and at times indifference) the gang showed in the Shamy break up arc.  Kinda weird to see but I guess the writers want to advance their plots at times without the pesky meddlesome of the friends lol. I found it frustrating to see Amy trying to line up a date for Raj on FWF right after he dumps one gf for another interest, only to try to run back to the first. Really Amy??

Maybe Im not being fair--the gals DID offer advice regarding Emily and that VDay gift, but other than that theyve been kinda weird about it all...

I could understand perhaps the lack of intervention in terms of the Shamy breakup because both Sheldon and Amy have been in the group for a long time and they are all friends with each other. But even then I was wondering at the lack of intervention perhaps by Leonard who could see his best friend hurting or even Penny who is close to Amy and yet saw first hand how Sheldon was coping. Maybe they just thought this is such a complex relationship and didn't want to get involved.

Raj's situation I just don't get. I wouldn't say there is a massive wave of feminism displayed by the female characters but surely at least one of them thinks Raj's behavior is wrong on that level? What about Howard who is Raj's best friend, he has done more than anyone to point out in a small way what Raj is doing is not cool but maybe Howard needs to be more vocal.

Maybe the simple explanation is that they don't see any of Raj's current love interests as longer term relationship material and think his dalliances are just going to be part of him growing up. I still maintain the view that he is going to end up alone at the end of this current storyline.

Edited by Jonny83
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My theory for the finale is that it's about Sheldon and Leonard's project. It would explain why all the parents show up. Kind of in the same spirit as they did in 8.23 when their sons got an award. I can honestly not think of another reason why all of them would show up, especially when it's just Leonard and Sheldon's parents.

As for Leonard's dad, I thought it would need a good reason for him to show up, since we've never seen him before. He didn't seem to be giving a flying crap about the fact that his son got engaged or married, so I guess the reason why he'll show up won't be related to Penny in any way. Leonard's career, on the other hand, seems more likely. Careers and success have always been important in the Hofstadter family.

I also think we can safely rule out infidelity and "taking a break", since we've seen that last season and I doubt they would do the same thing again. I doubt Penny's issues with getting older have got anything to do with Leonard. I see it more like a general realization that adult life isn't always easy and fun, but it's nothing finale or cliffhanger-worthy in my opinion.

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56 minutes ago, FileXxX said:

 

As for Leonard's dad, I thought it would need a good reason for him to show up, since we've never seen him before. He didn't seem to be giving a flying crap about the fact that his son got engaged or married, so I guess the reason why he'll show up won't be related to Penny in any way. Leonard's career, on the other hand, seems more likely. Careers and success have always been important in the Hofstadter family.

 

Leonard's father to me is a total question mark. Was he told Leonard got married?  All we are told about him was he left Beverly for a waitress. There are a lot of blanks to be filled in. Was he with held information like Beverly has withheld from Leonard? The dog and Beverly's 60th birthday? Are careers and success important to him or is it just Beverly. When Leonard brings up old stories like the Lima beans he mentioned Beverly embarrassing him not the father. Leonard mentioned the hugging machine and being gone a lot but was that caused by Beverly. Maybe we will find out more in the finale.

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1 hour ago, Chrismo said:

Leonard's father to me is a total question mark. Was he told Leonard got married?  All we are told about him was he left Beverly for a waitress. There are a lot of blanks to be filled in. Was he with held information like Beverly has withheld from Leonard? The dog and Beverly's 60th birthday? Are careers and success important to him or is it just Beverly. When Leonard brings up old stories like the Lima beans he mentioned Beverly embarrassing him not the father. Leonard mentioned the hugging machine and being gone a lot but was that caused by Beverly. Maybe we will find out more in the finale.

I've always thought it's possible that Leonard's dad isn't as bad as he was decribed by Beverly. And let's be honest: I would've left Beverly as well.

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15 hours ago, vasu said:

@Serena_nyc1995 @ATOB @wowbagger

 

its funny that no of mentions or complains when in this show itself... women are most of time right and men are most of the time wrong and have to apologize..... isn't that sexist ?? isn't that an insult to men's intelligence... which is so common in hollywood....

and where were all this complains when Howard's mother dragged an unwilling Raj into her house ..... imagine if the roles were reversed and if some character's father dragged an unwilling Penny or Bernie into his house... 

 

It has mentioned so many times by Penny that she uses sex to get things done... and she manipulates Leonard with sex..... so clearly them having sex mostly depends on Penny wanting it or not.....

um...i HAVE complained about that in the shamy thread and the shipping lanes thread as well (I think). I absolutely think it is sexist for the women to so seldom be allowed to goof off and be silly and wrong while the guys are the relatively sane ones.

and I absolutely think that it is icky to play for laughs anything where anyone tricks/pressures/coerces another person into sex.

but 'what aboutery' is a classic tactic used to derail any conversation. Are you talking about everyday harassment of women on streets? Oh, here comes someone saying 'hey, what about MEN who get harassed?' Yes, it happens, and yes, it's awful. But do you have something to contribute to THIS particular conversation? So I really don't get your response. Do you disagree that leonard's father sounds irresponsible? Do you think that Beverley is still worse? Either is a valid rejoinder, whether I agree or disagree. But 'what about [different issue]' just hijacks the argument.

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40 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

 Do you disagree that leonard's father sounds irresponsible? Do you think that Beverley is still worse? Either is a valid rejoinder, whether I agree or disagree. But 'what about [different issue]' just hijacks the argument.

We have seen Beverly. We have not seen Leonard's father. Leonard has said little about his father. What complaints he has had is mostly about his mother. Unless you don't like Leonard it's easy to dislike Beverly. So from what has been said and seen Beverly is worse. 

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7 hours ago, Jonny83 said:

I could understand perhaps the lack of intervention in terms of the Shamy breakup because both Sheldon and Amy have been in the group for a long time and they are all friends with each other. But even then I was wondering at the lack of intervention perhaps by Leonard who could see his best friend hurting or even Penny who is close to Amy and yet saw first hand how Sheldon was coping. Maybe they just thought this is such a complex relationship and didn't want to get involved.

Raj's situation I just don't get. I wouldn't say there is a massive wave of feminism displayed by the female characters but surely at least one of them thinks Raj's behavior is wrong on that level? What about Howard who is Raj's best friend, he has done more than anyone to point out in a small way what Raj is doing is not cool but maybe Howard needs to be more vocal.

Maybe the simple explanation is that they don't see any of Raj's current love interests as longer term relationship material and think his dalliances are just going to be part of him growing up. I still maintain the view that he is going to end up alone at the end of this current storyline.

Youre right about the long term relationship material angle, I can remember the guys all eating lunch in the cafeteria when Raj vented about Emily, and Howard asked him why he didnt break up with her already (and Raj's response was to throw it back at the guys and asking if any of THEM had broken off a relationship lol)...the Emily break up was coming, so perhaps most of them figured "about time"...

Maybe its just simpler to let Raj figure it out. Im sure Penny remembers the times she had tried to meddle with Raj's love life and they never ended well (setting him up with the deaf gal from Cheesecake, setting him up with a co-worker that Raj claimed was lying about being single) so why go there again. 

And when it comes down to it, all of the friends have their own "pasts" that might make their moral high ground precarious when it comes to outright condemning Raj's behavior. The girls only weighed in on the Emily break up after Raj approached them for advice about the VDay gift...

 

Edited by 2L344

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14 minutes ago, 2L344 said:

Youre right about the long term relationship material angle, I can remember the guys all eating lunch in the cafeteria when Raj vented about Emily, and Howard asked him why he didnt break up with her already (and Raj's response was to throw it back at the guys and asking if any of THEM had broken off a relationship lol)...the Emily break up was coming, so perhaps most of them figured "about time"...

Maybe its just simpler to let Raj figure it out. Im sure Penny remembers the times she had tried to meddle with Raj's love life and they never ended well (setting him up with the deaf gal from Cheesecake, setting him up with a co-worker that Raj claimed was lying about being single) so why go there again. 

And when it comes down to it, all of the friends have their own "pasts" that might make their moral high ground precarious when it comes to outright condemning Raj's behavior. The girls only weighed in on the Emily break up after Raj approached them for advice about the VDay gift...

That's basically my working theory right now for how the gang reacts to the Raj issue - at least until the show offers a better interpretation, which might never happen, so whatever. In many ways they've all encouraged him to break up with her, move on and not to get back to her. It may not always been in ways some of us find particularly appealing to our sensibilities or wishes but at least it's somewhat consistent. I'm eagerly awaiting the upcoming episode to see how all the fights play out. But one of them is reportedly between Raj and Howard cause Raj annoys the hell out of him with his constant bragging about his two-timing.

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