[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9

[cAntonio Santos]

The most romantic moment was when Leonard gave penny a snow flake from the north pole, 

[nickelette424]

55 minutes ago, JE7 said:

Lol on our calendar February is followed by the month of yellow 

My favorite in our neck of the woods are the rivers of yellow.   Our wiping something off only for it have an inch of pollen covering it within minutes. 

[Lionne]

2 hours ago, April said:

Lio, if you want to discuss how certain jokes don't work for you and the writing isn't as top-notch as you'd like it to be then by all means let's do that!

But the problem here is that discussions all too often get caught up in petty nitpicks about continuity and spreading misconceptions like "allergies don't work like that" (even though, well, they do) and suddenly everyone is angry at the writers for not giving us a proper documentation about a character's health issues or because a character isn't 100% rational and consumes food that might not be good for them.

Hee! Okay, I'm going to split this one in half - I give on the allergy thing, but not on the continuity errors thing. To me, "nitpicks about continuity" are valid critiques of the writing.

The continuity problem on the show has changed from being extremely small potatoes - the only two I saw for a long time were Bernie being able to handle Sheldon (or children in general) like a champ because her mother ran an illegal daycare, to not being able to handle children at all while assisting Howard's magic act at a children's party because she just hates children, and Sheldon's age when his father died being changed to 14, when we had a story of his father being alive when he was at least 15. To have those be the only two glaring continuity problems on a sitcom over 1 - 7 seasons (there might have been some others, but I did not notice them) to where we are with the continuity errors today is part and parcel of complaints about the declining quality of the writing. Now the flip-flops even come really fast on their own heels - at the 200th episode Beverly cheerfully thanked Penny for sparing her having to attend a wedding, but next episode she's going to reveal that she was actually hurt not to be invited. I have to assume that Beverly, who has never been shy with her opinion, and never had a good verbal filter, was hiding her true feelings before?

It's maddening, things don't make any sense, and it's not nitpicking - those "throw away" lines can haunt the show for a long time. Prince Faisal being a prime example of being mentioned once as a joke that lived on and on, until Bill Prady had a Twitter meltdown over it. Because this is what your true fans do - they rewatch these episodes multiple times and they know everything by heart, and you're insulting their intelligence and how much they care when you play fast 'n loose with the characters and the material as if it doesn't matter. When you love the show and you love the characters, it matters, and it should matter as much to the writers who are making their livelihood off having dedicated fans.

The things people are "nitpicking" stay with you. It's amazing how many people watched the awkward interaction between Amy and Howard and said, "wait, but what about their Neil Diamond connection?" The Neil Diamond moment was a huge fan favorite, and I couldn't tell from the dialogue in this episode if they were really referencing it or not, because they never threw the words "Neil Diamond" into their reference of the last time they hung out together alone. So I'm not even sure if it's a real continuity error or not, BUT it's tripping a lot of people up and making them say, "hey, wait a sec, but that doesn't make sense because...." And that's all you need to provoke, really, to have a problem with continuity - creating a scene or scenario that makes your audience break from the moment because it doesn't jibe with their impression of the story as you've told it so far.

This is happening a lot, which brings me to the allergy thing. Some people corrected me on the allergy thing, and I quoted one and said, "Gotcha," because I do appreciate being corrected on that. I don't need any more lectures about allergies. But here's the problem: part of why I'm messing up things up with Leonard and his nose/allergies/inhaler/whatever is going back to tripping over that continuity snafu before, when he had his surgery because of his snoring. Despite that show explicitly stating via Penny once, and Sheldon again another time, that Leonard does NOT snore, he suddenly had a raging snoring problem and had been Sheldon's "white noise machine" for years. Continuity error. So he had surgery to fix it - okay, so that was fixed. And he has a bunch of allergies to lactose, melon, etc, and he has asthma...I am sorry that I got confused, but it just seems like Leonard's nasal health problems (much like Sheldon's mental problems, which now include hoarding) anything from the warehouse of health issues that brand one as "nerdy" can be thrown onto Leonard. So anyway - I thought that his deviated septum was fixed when he didn't have a deviated septum before, he had asthma, and now he has nasal allergies, when before he had allergies to other things but not pollen. I get that I am wrong on that one, and I'm fine admitting that I'm wrong, but I think there's a reason why I would begin to get confused here, yes?

As for the rest - glad we agree. I completely feel you on the rest of the things that you mentioned. The Ugh!Raj situation is particularly bad, for so many reasons - a big part of the problem is that Sheldon playing the third wheel to Penny and Leonard is mirrored in Raj playing the third wheel to Howard and Bernadette, and having that dynamic and the issues associated with it repeated in two areas on the show makes it very stale, very fast, and the writers flirt with the idea of changing it in both areas, but then drop it. That's a huge problem because both areas are major fan issues they'd like to see resolved, and flirting with the issue and bringing up other promising story lines without follow thru - while falling back on man, wife and best friend triangles with 6 out of the 7 main characters - is getting old times two.  

First of all, people were really intrigued by Raj and Emily. They had good chemistry, Emily was interesting, people liked the actress who played her, and having the guy who used to not be able to talk to girls finally get his first real long-term girlfriend should have had a lot of material to mine for the development of Raj's character. Last season's finale gave them a cliffhanger where Raj chickened out on breaking up with her, which made them even more interesting, because would Raj stay with Emily for the wrong reasons, and how nasty would a break up with Emily be, considering her creepy side? There was so much potential there for Raj to have his own storyline and not be a third wheel to Howard and Bernadette (who had not one, but TWO third wheels, because they were also dealing with Stuart), but it was squandered and the writers don't even treat Emily like a character who has been around for, when this season ends, a full 3 years now. So if you don't want Howard/Raj/Bernadette to be taking from the same well of issues and jokes as Leonard/Sheldon/Penny, the Raj/Emily storyline was right there, and fans were interested in it. But...somewhere we've gotten Claire mixed up into this, and Raj has gone from being a sweet, loyal, but very messed up guy with a strong "jerk streak" to just full Ugh!Raj (TM), and this issue will not resolve or even find any meaningful "pause" point before the end of the season.

Second of all, if you wanted to keep Raj, Howard and Bernadette as a threesome you could have kept Raj single and done away with the Stuart stuff, and broken up Sheldon, Penny and Leonard instead. If people were interested in Raj and Emily, that pales in comparison to the fact that dealing with the living arrangements is one of the few issues the majority of the fanbase agrees on across ships. People have wanted Sheldon and Leonard to stop living together for a long time now - and they are led to feeling that way by the show itself! Penny and Leonard are engaged, and now married - the show has gone there and now people expect them to want to live in their own. But instead of Leonard moving out and across the hall with Penny, Penny moved in with Sheldon and Leonard! How exasperating is THAT? Not to mention that the show keeps hitting us over the head about the living arrangements - like Leslie Winkle congratulating Leonard on his marriage because she believed he'd live with Sheldon the rest of his life, and Leonard making that "er" face because...ha ha ha, he is still living with Sheldon! Or Leonard and Penny fighting because they are dealing with Sheldon and his Roommate Agreement as separate individuals, and not as a team - an issue which is saved from resolution by Howard's random peanut allergy, and now we know will also not resolve before the season is out.

You know, by having Penny and Leonard move out into their own place, and relying on Amy to change up that dynamic. There's a ton of issues that the show could work through there - that it's more of a 4some now, with Amy included, like the wonderful "Game Night" episode or the 4 of them at the cabin together, so Sheldon is no longer stripped of all his dignity and any trace of adulthood by having to play man/dog/child/third wheel to Lenny. Have Penny and Leonard work through moving into together and moving on with their marriage, and perhaps deal with the way they use Sheldon as a crutch to avoid certain issues. Have Sheldon and Amy deal with moving their relationship forward, perhaps towards living together, now that they've had sex.

All stuff that is right there, on the table, being hinted at in episode after episode as the seasons go on. There is a lot of comedy in the evolution of the characters, relationships and otherwise, that would go hand-in-hand with these issues, and I think it's completely understandable that when the show raises a certain plot line the viewers at home expect to see it carried through in some meaningful way. Even though Howard, Raj and Bernie thinking that they are being chased by the government and getting pulled over is funny, and Mary and Leonard's Dad hooking up out of hatred for Beverly might be funny (or squicky, and OOC for religious Mary, who was praying hard on the fact she was having sex outside of a marriage with a man she had been dating for 6 months), it's still frivolous filler that should have been indulged in the middle of the season (and they indulged a lot of funny but meaningless filler like this already) while, perhaps, wrapping up some of the big issues they've teased us with all season? And some the season before that? And the season before that?

There is definitely time this season I would have willingly given up - Bernie/Leonard/Penny spying on Amy and Dave's date, for example. Sheldon and his random hoarding problem being another, Bernie's pregnancy being something I could have waited on until other issues had gotten wrapped up, Penny's career and financial issues raising their ugly head at random - to keep moving other plots that I know the majority of the fanbase is way more passionate about.

So...we will end the season with Leonard and Penny redoing their wedding with family because a Lenny wedding is how to end the season two years in a row, Raj is not only still dating the woman he tried to break up with last finale but another one, Sheldon and Leonard's parents bickering and hooking up are going to steal all the thunder from the main cast for the finale, and that engagement ring has completely vanished off the radar as the virginity milestone has finally passed and been followed up with...nothing.

As Beverly would say: Yikes.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Lionne

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Lionne said:

I have to assume that Beverly, who has never been shy with her opinion, and never had a good verbal filter, was hiding her true feelings before?

This is exactly what they're trying to tell. There is no continuity error. Many people pretend they're in denial about something they actually care about, just so that they don't look weak. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that Beverly does have feelings for her son and his wife.

[djsurrey]

18 minutes ago, FileXxX said:

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that Beverly does have feelings for her son and his wife.

...beyond disappointment?

You could be right.

[Lionne]

1 hour ago, FileXxX said:

This is exactly what they're trying to tell. There is no continuity error. Many people pretend they're in denial about something they actually care about, just so that they don't look weak. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that Beverly does have feelings for her son and his wife.

Many people pretend, absolutely. Beverly is not many people - she is a unique and well-drawn character that we've gotten to know over 9 years. She is not sentimental, she is not caring towards her son, she is a cool-headed, calculated, professional psychiatrist who confronts and articulates her feelings clearly, bluntly, and often without regard to how they will make other people feel. She has no issue announcing she's feeling menopausal or insulting Mary to her face about her religion. She had no issue telling Penny, whom she had barely met, about her feelings about her divorce or taking care of her own orgasms since 1983. She will waltz right in the door and call her ex-husband a wrinkled old bastard. God knows she's not shy about her "Needy Baby, Greedy Baby," and putting every humiliating detail about Leonard's childhood and the way she dealt with it out to the public.

Beverly is honest, brutally so, and when she thanks Penny for not making her attend the wedding or any sort of reception, and seems completely sincere in that gesture, it's something I should able to take at face value. That seems accurate to the character and the show didn't hint there was anything more complicated under the surface.

If they wanted to have Beverly get upset about not being included in Leonard and Penny's wedding - which would be odd, as she has no normal sentimental attachments to birthdays or holidays, for example - then they could have gone there to bring about their finale without having her not care just a handful of episodes before. Her previous line was a throwaway joke, but now it's going to be reversed because they need the impetus for a wedding to bring a bunch of characters together for their finale, which they didn't have planned in any way at the time the other episode was written.

When wowbagger talks about "the seams are showing" in the writing, she means things precisely like this. It was totally in character for Beverly not to be sentimental or interested in attending Leonard's wedding, and to thank Penny sincerely for not inviting her and making her endure the event. The about face, where she's now upset about it and confronts Penny, is a sudden change from her previous position and her previous characterization because a catalyst is needed to create a plot scenario that they want to make happen. Beverly has been "tweaked" to drive the plot, rather than plot driven by consistent characterization, and to me it comes across as lazy writing.

Penny and Leonard redo the wedding with family, and we have an excuse to get Mary, Beverly and Leonard's Dad on the scene for some funny fireworks. Which is probably be funny, last time Mary and Beverly met it was hysterical, and it's also a joy watching two older, female, veteran actors just completely steal that entire episode. Master thespians are a joy to watch, and seeing Christine and Laurie finally playing off each other was awesome. If I could turn off my brain, or if this was not the season finale, maybe it wouldn't bother me so much and I could just sit back and enjoy it. Maybe if Penny and Leonard had called off the wedding in Vegas due to his revelation about kissing another girl while away from her, and spent the season hammering out some issues in their relationship in meaningful ways that had some impact and progression on the storyline, then it would have been really awesome to end the season with their wedding. It would feel earned, it would be something to celebrate, it would make sense!

But instead we're going to bookend the season with two disappointing wedding ceremonies? One that is overshadowed first by Leonard's "cheating" confession and Penny's distress and denial about it, and then by Amy and Sheldon breaking up, and now one that will be overshadowed by not being shown onscreen (unless we're at the rehearsal dinner, and we'll pick up next season with the wedding and reception with family) and the antics of Leonard and Sheldon's parents. But again, it's repetitive - ending last season on Lenny zooming off to finally get married, only to hit a snag, and get married in the season opener. Now ending this season on a wedding redo, and since it seems open ended about whether the dinner we saw was like a rehearsal dinner or the actual reception after another ceremony, we might open next season on a continuation of Leonard and Penny's wedding. Which I almost hope for, by the way, because it was such a big deal that Penny didn't invite her own parents to her wedding, and her father would be so broken up about not getting to dance with her and such - if they're so interested in parents we haven't met yet, then it's high time to bring Penny's Mom along.

Perhaps Penny's Mom would put both Beverly and Mary in their place and make them behave themselves at their daughter's wedding. That could be hilarious.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Lionne

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Lionne said:

Many people pretend, absolutely. Beverly is not many people - she is a unique and well-drawn character that we've gotten to know over 9 years. She is not sentimental, she is not caring towards her son, she is a professional psychiatrist who confronts and articulates her feelings clearly, bluntly, and often without regard to how they will make other people feel. She has no issue announcing she's feeling menopausal or insulting Mary to her face about her religion. She had no issue telling Penny, whom she had barely met, about her feelings about her divorce or taking care of her own orgasms since 1983. She will waltz right in the door and call her ex-husband a wrinkled old bastard. God knows she's not shy about her "Needy Baby, Greedy Baby," and putting every humiliating detail about Leonard's childhood and the way she dealt with it out to the public. I believe that she also wrote a thesis paper on something intimate about herself, and told Sheldon he could read it online, or get a copy through the Princeton press?

Beverly is honest, brutally so, and when she thanks for Penny for not making her go through having to attend the wedding or any sort of reception, and seems completely sincere in that gesture, it's something I should able to take at face value because that is her character. If they wanted to have Beverly get upset about not being included in Leonard and Penny's wedding - which would be odd, as she has no normal sentimental attachments to birthdays or holidays, for example, but treats them as scientifically interesting phenomenon for human beings, which she studies as if they are insects - then they could have gone there to bring about their finale without having her not care just a handful of episodes before.

When wowbagger talks about "the seams are showing" in the writing, she means things precisely like this. It was totally in character for Beverly not to be sentimental or interested in attending Leonard's wedding, and to thank Penny sincerely for not inviting her and making her endure the event. The about face, where she's now upset about it and confronts Penny, is a sudden change from her previous position and her previous characterization which is just a catalyst to create a plot scenario that they want to make happen. Beverly has been "tweaked" to drive the plot, rather than plot driven by consistent characterization, and to me it comes across as lazy writing.

Beverly is just as human as anybody else. She is with no doubts pretending or hiding her feelings from time to time. You could tell when she was drunk in season three, where her inhibitions were pretty much non-existent. And, you know, people change, just like Sheldon did. I like that these writers are not resistant when it comes to character changes because it's only natural.

Oh, for the future: If you quote my posts, don't feel obliged to write walls of text to make a point. I don't like reading these, especially because I've forgotten half of the things you wrote already when I'm done.

[Lady in Red]

Lionne-Let it all go!  This is a great place for that.  

Here's my take on the show.  It's a wonderful sit-com, centered on three main characters, Leonard, Sheldon, and Penny, and the place where they interact most often is the living room of 4A.  Sit-coms are designed to have lots of jokes, and they don't need to have a perfectly tied together story that moves along quickly.   The characters do not need to behave in the same ways that people do in real life.  The casual viewer tunes in, sees these people in 4A saying silly stuff, and is not bothered by where they might be sleeping that night, or a small shift in attitude from several shows before.

It is fun to come to this forum and talk about various inconsistencies, but I think it is sad if concerns about these trump our overall enjoyment of watching the show.

[Lionne]

11 minutes ago, FileXxX said:

Beverly is just as human as anybody else. She is with no doubts pretending or hiding her feelings from time to time. You could tell when she was drunk in season three, where her inhibitions were pretty much non-existent. And, you know, people change, just like Sheldon did. I like that these writers are not resistant when it comes to character changes because it's only natural.

Oh, for the future: If you quote my posts, don't feel obliged to write walls of text to make a point. I don't like reading these, especially because I've forgotten half of the things you wrote already when I'm done.

It's great that you have no doubt, in italics, and that's your opinion. I have doubts though, for reasons which I clearly stated at, as you have pointed out, great length.

I don't write out of any obligation, I write because I like embracing the topic and I'm thorough like that. If you don't enjoy reading "walls of text," then I suggest that I'm the wrong person to engage in any sort of discussion. I really will not be offended if you chose to skip over me.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Lionne

[Lionne]

19 minutes ago, Lady in Red said:

Lionne-Let it all go!  This is a great place for that. 

It is. It's nice to vent it all and get it off my shoulders. Feelings and opinions are ever evolving things, I've gone through a lot of ups and downs with the show. Right now I'm in one of the down swings, but like I said before, this is pretty standard with TBBT's pattern. They struggle in the second act. You talk it out, move onto the next episode, the next season. But after all is said and done with this season, I've got a lot of doubts, and I've watched a lot of my old comrades fall off the radar and drop the show and the Shamy ship the last three years, and they're really dropping like flies right now. It's sad, but I can't blame them. I really can't.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Lionne

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Lionne said:

It's great that you have no doubt, in italics, and that's your opinion. I have doubts though, for reasons which I clearly stated at, as you have pointed out, great length.

It's in italics for emphasis. And of course it's my opinion. I don't need to put that into every single post I make, do I?

15 minutes ago, Lionne said:

I don't write out of any obligation, I write because I like embracing the topic and I'm thorough like that.

I believe you.

[Lionne]

6 minutes ago, FileXxX said:

It's in italics for emphasis. And of course it's my opinion. I don't need to put that into every single post I make, do I?

Actually, when you make the statement "with no doubts" in very strong italics, that would be the one time to make clear that it's our opinion, not a blanket statement of fact. And I'm aware that italics are for emphasis without you needing to roll your eyes at me via emoticon. I'm pointing out the emphasis on "with no doubt" and saying it's great you feel it that strongly, but obviously not all people feel the same way. So strongly.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Lionne

[serena_1995]

On 4/29/2016 at 6:43 PM, Squonk said:

Making tbbt look like friends does not sound very fresh to me. #fishysmell.

btw love friends

Its not about being like Friends. Its about men and women interacting with each other in a platonic way, the way they did on Friends. Guys should be able to bond with women they are not fucking. Its called having Male-Female friendships. 

I have to say, even though Friends was relationship/romance centric , the women were 3 dimensional and much better written than TBBT. TBBT does a huge disservice to women, especially women in science.

Edited May 1, 2016 by serena_nyc1995

[djsurrey]

18 hours ago, serena_nyc1995 said:

Its not about being like Friends. Its about men and women interacting with each other in a platonic way, the way they did on Friends. Guys should be able to bond with women they are not fucking. Its called having Male-Female friendships. 

I have to say, even though Friends was relationship/romance centric , the women were 3 dimensional and much better written than TBBT. TBBT does a huge disservice to women, especially women in science.

In my opinion TBBT has improved in that regard with the addition of Amy and Bernadette. Being a BBT celebrity certainly has given a boost to Mayim Bialik's promotion of STEM education.

http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/feature/the_big_bang_theorys_mayim_bialik_shares_experiences_as_an_academic_actor_a

Edited May 1, 2016 by djsurrey
sp

[Mislav]

On 29. travnja 2016. at 4:42 AM, Thyanic <3 said:

I agree with part of your post , and yes Amy makes a lot of mistakes specially because of her lack of self-steem (because a woman who loved herself don't get all the cr*p amy gets) that is her biggest problem.. of course was Amy's decision (fault) to get back together with sheldon, but that doesn't justify we have to see her to be treated like a doormat or we're not keep seeing Sheldon's disrespectful attitude in order to humiliate her and make some cheap jokes (i'm not blaming sheldon here i'm blaming the writers), I used to love shamy because it was precisely their quirkiness, their "non-traditional" romance what makes me love them together, but that changed when the relationship became into "one-side relationship", and trust me I've never wanted "they will become what I want to", my biggest concern on this episode has nothing to do with them becoming in a traditional relationship, to me this has to do with something as simple as RESPECT, sheldon has no respect to amy, not in this episode sorry (and some others of course), he could call amy to cancel.. he could send her a text saying "I don't want to go shopping with you, I'd rather spend the day with my friends and watch the movie because it's important to me!" I'm pretty sure that Amy (with her endless love and patient to him) would understand that!!... but (based on the tp) he only hired stuart to spend the day with amy without any explanation to her not even ask her if she was OK with that, not even to inform her. I wonder if Amy were the one who hired Vanessa to take care of Sheldon or spend the day with him, how the shamy fans would react?? (maybe some bbt fans would be happy haha ) I remember when Amy refused to return from her NB covention while sheldon was sick in order to avoid his unbearable behavior, a lot of shamies were mad at amy, because some people think amy HAS to be with sheldon no matter what, even when he becomes in a j*rk and is mean to all the people around...I'm not saying they have to be together all the time, that would be tedious I love to see them doing different things and being independent from each other, (unfortunately lately we only see Amy being Sheldon's (emotional outhouse) girlfriend instead of the succesful scientist, independent woman she was at the begining).. I'm talking about comunication and respect...

I guess one sidedness is a matter of opinion... I wasn't upset much by Amy bailing out on Sheldon, but if Sheldon took care of her for days despite his fear of germs and bacteria that bordered on paranoia, and she pretended to be sick later just so that would last, I don't see how Amy taking care of Sheldon when he is sick would be such a sacrifice or a hard thing to do. Also, from what we've seen, Sheldon does watch movies that Amy likes, with her, too. On one side there are Sheldon's Star Wars movies, on other side there are Amy's old French movies, on one side there is Relationship Agreement, on the other side is Amy constantly challenging it, etc...

[camelliayao]

2 hours ago, Mislav said:

I guess one sidedness is a matter of opinion... I wasn't upset much by Amy bailing out on Sheldon, but if Sheldon took care of her for days despite his fear of germs and bacteria that bordered on paranoia, and she pretended to be sick later just so that would last, I don't see how Amy taking care of Sheldon when he is sick would be such a sacrifice or a hard thing to do. Also, from what we've seen, Sheldon does watch movies that Amy likes, with her, too. On one side there are Sheldon's Star Wars movies, on other side there are Amy's old French movies, on one side there is Relationship Agreement, on the other side is Amy constantly challenging it, etc...

I think because Amy's just a plot tool, there're no consistencies in her behavior. Like she was so desperate to see Sheldon without his pants on that she checked him for bugs in 920. But she gave up the opportunity to take care of him when he was sick in 913, despite that she would get to do all sorts of "intimate" things to Sheldon if she took care of him, like helping him shower, or rub Vicks on his chest.

I guess what Thyanic <3 really wanted to ask is, why is Amy always treated as a plot tool, especially this season? Sure she's just a supportive character. However, she was a supportive character before, but we got to see her shine here and there. This season? we barely saw things from her POV in the first half of this season. She was there to help show how heartbroken Sheldon was. Then in the second half of this season, her personality was all over the place. When the writers needed her to be supportive and sweet, she was the best girlfriend in the whole universe. When they wanted to create some drama, she acted all mean and jealous. And although she became friends with Howard and Raj in the past few seasons (Howard and Raj invited her to lunch; Amy helped Raj with Emily; Howard comforted Amy when she broke up with Sheldon). In 9x22, just for a cheap 30-second joke, the writers turned Amy into condescending and awkward again. Also she seems to have no life in this season. She can't live without a man.

I am a Shamy shipper and of course I like to see Shamy interactions. I also know that Shamy's only a small part of the show and I'm grateful for the Shamy sweetnesses in this season. But in episodes where the writers don't plan to give us Shamy sweetnesses, can we just have Shamy do their own things and both have a life, like 916; rather than them fighting for some dumb reasons or Sheldon being an ass and Amy being annoying? Take 9x21 as an example, previously we guessed this episode was a build up for living arrangement change in this season finale. Now that we know we were wrong, it makes me wonder what's the point of Amy being jealous.

Things like this make me feel bad for Amy. Because the writers constantly make jokes of her social awkwardness, her feelings and her desire towards Sheldon. It's like her feelings don't matter because she's a plot tool and that's she's ever gonna be. I'm not saying I want to Amy have some major plots or anything. I just want some reasonable character developments of her and consistencies within her personality. I want to see her relationship with Sheldon and with others constantly moving forward, not one step forward three steps back.

Edited May 1, 2016 by camelliayao

[Stephen Hawking]

On 4/26/2016 at 1:58 AM, Chrismo said:

Obviously a biased opinion to think that there are others behaviors are more childish than his.

Howard can certainly be pretty childish, at times.

On 4/26/2016 at 2:11 AM, SRAM said:

Leonard explained why he stays with Sheldon to Dr Proton, Sheldon is damaged and needs him.

Leonard also said, he guesses needs Sheldon too.

On 4/26/2016 at 2:49 AM, JE7 said:

this is the hard truth thread.

Although a lot of what is posted here, is opinion, not truth.

On 4/26/2016 at 2:54 AM, JE7 said:

So psychological abuse and Manipulation is OK as long as you  get the victim to do the physical harm to themselves?

Sheldon didn't insist he wear the sweater.

Leonard agreed to Sheldon's suggestion, that he wear it, as a way of understanding Sheldon's discomfort at unresolved issues.

Leonard was, as Sheldon described it, "trying to walk a mile in my metaphorical shoes."

Not forgetting, Leonard and the others have psychologically abused Sheldon.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Stephen Hawking

[wowbagger]

9 hours ago, FileXxX said:

Beverly is just as human as anybody else. She is with no doubts pretending or hiding her feelings from time to time. You could tell when she was drunk in season three, where her inhibitions were pretty much non-existent. And, you know, people change, just like Sheldon did. I like that these writers are not resistant when it comes to character changes because it's only natural.

Oh, the writers don't stop there. They embrace change even when it's unnatural. Like the fussy, rule-bound hypochondriac Sheldon only accepting medication from lackadaisical jock Penny. They've embraced that change. Or where Amy, who only went on dates once a year as an agreement with her mother so she could continue using her George Foreman grill, was suddenly pining for a boyfriend and making rape-adjacent jokes about going to frathouses and going to sleep in the coat-room and waking up with more clothes on. They've embraced that change. Or-oo,oo!- like Ugh, Raj, who freaked out about being in contact with Lucy even when he wasn't officially exclusive with Emily, is now all about juggling two women with no apparent discomfort. They have embraced that change, groped it in public and impregnated it.

And in all cases- in every single one of them- there has been no indication from the writing, or acting, to indicate that we shouldn't take the previous characterisation at anything but face value. Lio pointed out the trouble with the Beverley example upthread, but I think it is pretty clear in all cases. Now, with some Olympic-level contortionism, we can headcanon until we can sort of make sense of it. Some of the time. If we draw the lines for the writers, write in between the lines and read between them, we can make it all make some sort of tenuous sense.

If we squint, if we huff and puff and follow the writers with a bucket and a mop and a Band-Aid, we can spackle over their laziness and their by now open contempt of their audience. We can wedge ourselves farther and farther into Stockholm Syndrome and pretend that everything in the garden is lovely and the writers love us and they're only teasing us because they love us and they want us to come back and when they take our commitment and spit it back in our faces, it's been because of something we did, and it's only temporary, and the writers have just been going through a terrible time at work, and we should stay together for the sake of the 'ships, and, and, and...

Or we could call 'shenanigans' and decide what we're going to do about it.

9 hours ago, FileXxX said:

Oh, for the future: If you quote my posts, don't feel obliged to write walls of text to make a point. I don't like reading these, especially because I've forgotten half of the things you wrote already when I'm done.

Yeah, see, the thing is that this is not actually a private conversation, but an exchange on a public forum. So other people can read your posts, and Lio's, and pick up on bits that they agree or disagree with. So you can feel free to truck on by my posts- or this reply!- and if someone else wants to rebut, or ignore my posts, they can do so as well. 

But I have a question regarding response length (which you mustn't feel obliged to answer): how exactly do you think people will respond to your posts if they disagree with specific points? Are you really happy for them to just say 'Bollocks', and leave it at that? That seems like a....difficult...world to inhabit.

Unless! What you really mean is that you don't want anybody to respond to your posts at all unless they agree with you? Nah, that can't be right.

Oh, and feel free to respond- if you'd like to- with an eyeroll emoji and a 'TL;DR'.

Edited May 1, 2016 by wowbagger

[Stephen Hawking]

On 4/26/2016 at 3:23 AM, JE7 said:

Challenge??? He accepted his punishment for his "transgression" which by the way didn't actually exist.

The transgression did exist, in that Leonard failed to return the DVD.

On 4/26/2016 at 3:23 AM, JE7 said:

Sheldon was just cruel and took pleasure in being so.

The others have been cruel to Sheldon.

[Stephen Hawking]

On 4/26/2016 at 4:39 AM, legacy99 said:

Since the writers have rehashed some story lines maybe the finale will be sheldon and penny retaking the love test.

I'd like to see all the couples take that test, as couples.

[mirs1]

13 hours ago, Lionne said:

Hee! Okay, I'm going to split this one in half - I give on the allergy thing, but not on the continuity errors thing. To me, "nitpicks about continuity" are valid critiques of the writing.

The continuity problem on the show has changed from being extremely small potatoes - the only two I saw for a long time were Bernie being able to handle Sheldon (or children in general) like a champ because her mother ran an illegal daycare, to not being able to handle children at all while assisting Howard's magic act at a children's party because she just hates children, and Sheldon's age when his father died being changed to 14, when we had a story of his father being alive when he was at least 15. To have those be the only two glaring continuity problems on a sitcom over 1 - 7 seasons (there might have been some others, but I did not notice them) to where we are with the continuity errors today is part and parcel of complaints about the declining quality of the writing. Now the flip-flops even come really fast on their own heels - at the 200th episode Beverly cheerfully thanked Penny for sparing her having to attend a wedding, but next episode she's going to reveal that she was actually hurt not to be invited. I have to assume that Beverly, who has never been shy with her opinion, and never had a good verbal filter, was hiding her true feelings before?

It's maddening, things don't make any sense, and it's not nitpicking - those "throw away" lines can haunt the show for a long time. Prince Faisal being a prime example of being mentioned once as a joke that lived on and on, until Bill Prady had a Twitter meltdown over it. Because this is what your true fans do - they rewatch these episodes multiple times and they know everything by heart, and you're insulting their intelligence and how much they care when you play fast 'n loose with the characters and the material as if it doesn't matter. When you love the show and you love the characters, it matters, and it should matter as much to the writers who are making their livelihood off having dedicated fans.

The things people are "nitpicking" stay with you. It's amazing how many people watched the awkward interaction between Amy and Howard and said, "wait, but what about their Neil Diamond connection?" The Neil Diamond moment was a huge fan favorite, and I couldn't tell from the dialogue in this episode if they were really referencing it or not, because they never threw the words "Neil Diamond" into their reference of the last time they hung out together alone. So I'm not even sure if it's a real continuity error or not, BUT it's tripping a lot of people up and making them say, "hey, wait a sec, but that doesn't make sense because...." And that's all you need to provoke, really, to have a problem with continuity - creating a scene or scenario that makes your audience break from the moment because it doesn't jibe with their impression of the story as you've told it so far.

This is happening a lot, which brings me to the allergy thing. Some people corrected me on the allergy thing, and I quoted one and said, "Gotcha," because I do appreciate being corrected on that. I don't need any more lectures about allergies. But here's the problem: part of why I'm messing up things up with Leonard and his nose/allergies/inhaler/whatever is going back to tripping over that continuity snafu before, when he had his surgery because of his snoring. Despite that show explicitly stating via Penny once, and Sheldon again another time, that Leonard does NOT snore, he suddenly had a raging snoring problem and had been Sheldon's "white noise machine" for years. Continuity error. So he had surgery to fix it - okay, so that was fixed. And he has a bunch of allergies to lactose, melon, etc, and he has asthma...I am sorry that I got confused, but it just seems like Leonard's nasal health problems (much like Sheldon's mental problems, which now include hoarding) anything from the warehouse of health issues that brand one as "nerdy" can be thrown onto Leonard. So anyway - I thought that his deviated septum was fixed when he didn't have a deviated septum before, he had asthma, and now he has nasal allergies, when before he had allergies to other things but not pollen. I get that I am wrong on that one, and I'm fine admitting that I'm wrong, but I think there's a reason why I would begin to get confused here, yes?

As for the rest - glad we agree. I completely feel you on the rest of the things that you mentioned. The Ugh!Raj situation is particularly bad, for so many reasons - a big part of the problem is that Sheldon playing the third wheel to Penny and Leonard is mirrored in Raj playing the third wheel to Howard and Bernadette, and having that dynamic and the issues associated with it repeated in two areas on the show makes it very stale, very fast, and the writers flirt with the idea of changing it in both areas, but then drop it. That's a huge problem because both areas are major fan issues they'd like to see resolved, and flirting with the issue and bringing up other promising story lines without follow thru - while falling back on man, wife and best friend triangles with 6 out of the 7 main characters - is getting old times two.  

First of all, people were really intrigued by Raj and Emily. They had good chemistry, Emily was interesting, people liked the actress who played her, and having the guy who used to not be able to talk to girls finally get his first real long-term girlfriend should have had a lot of material to mine for the development of Raj's character. Last season's finale gave them a cliffhanger where Raj chickened out on breaking up with her, which made them even more interesting, because would Raj stay with Emily for the wrong reasons, and how nasty would a break up with Emily be, considering her creepy side? There was so much potential there for Raj to have his own storyline and not be a third wheel to Howard and Bernadette (who had not one, but TWO third wheels, because they were also dealing with Stuart), but it was squandered and the writers don't even treat Emily like a character who has been around for, when this season ends, a full 3 years now. So if you don't want Howard/Raj/Bernadette to be taking from the same well of issues and jokes as Leonard/Sheldon/Penny, the Raj/Emily storyline was right there, and fans were interested in it. But...somewhere we've gotten Claire mixed up into this, and Raj has gone from being a sweet, loyal, but very messed up guy with a strong "jerk streak" to just full Ugh!Raj (TM), and this issue will not resolve or even find any meaningful "pause" point before the end of the season.

Second of all, if you wanted to keep Raj, Howard and Bernadette as a threesome you could have kept Raj single and done away with the Stuart stuff, and broken up Sheldon, Penny and Leonard instead. If people were interested in Raj and Emily, that pales in comparison to the fact that dealing with the living arrangements is one of the few issues the majority of the fanbase agrees on across ships. People have wanted Sheldon and Leonard to stop living together for a long time now - and they are led to feeling that way by the show itself! Penny and Leonard are engaged, and now married - the show has gone there and now people expect them to want to live in their own. But instead of Leonard moving out and across the hall with Penny, Penny moved in with Sheldon and Leonard! How exasperating is THAT? Not to mention that the show keeps hitting us over the head about the living arrangements - like Leslie Winkle congratulating Leonard on his marriage because she believed he'd live with Sheldon the rest of his life, and Leonard making that "er" face because...ha ha ha, he is still living with Sheldon! Or Leonard and Penny fighting because they are dealing with Sheldon and his Roommate Agreement as separate individuals, and not as a team - an issue which is saved from resolution by Howard's random peanut allergy, and now we know will also not resolve before the season is out.

You know, by having Penny and Leonard move out into their own place, and relying on Amy to change up that dynamic. There's a ton of issues that the show could work through there - that it's more of a 4some now, with Amy included, like the wonderful "Game Night" episode or the 4 of them at the cabin together, so Sheldon is no longer stripped of all his dignity and any trace of adulthood by having to play man/dog/child/third wheel to Lenny. Have Penny and Leonard work through moving into together and moving on with their marriage, and perhaps deal with the way they use Sheldon as a crutch to avoid certain issues. Have Sheldon and Amy deal with moving their relationship forward, perhaps towards living together, now that they've had sex.

All stuff that is right there, on the table, being hinted at in episode after episode as the seasons go on. There is a lot of comedy in the evolution of the characters, relationships and otherwise, that would go hand-in-hand with these issues, and I think it's completely understandable that when the show raises a certain plot line the viewers at home expect to see it carried through in some meaningful way. Even though Howard, Raj and Bernie thinking that they are being chased by the government and getting pulled over is funny, and Mary and Leonard's Dad hooking up out of hatred for Beverly might be funny (or squicky, and OOC for religious Mary, who was praying hard on the fact she was having sex outside of a marriage with a man she had been dating for 6 months), it's still frivolous filler that should have been indulged in the middle of the season (and they indulged a lot of funny but meaningless filler like this already) while, perhaps, wrapping up some of the big issues they've teased us with all season? And some the season before that? And the season before that?

There is definitely time this season I would have willingly given up - Bernie/Leonard/Penny spying on Amy and Dave's date, for example. Sheldon and his random hoarding problem being another, Bernie's pregnancy being something I could have waited on until other issues had gotten wrapped up, Penny's career and financial issues raising their ugly head at random - to keep moving other plots that I know the majority of the fanbase is way more passionate about.

So...we will end the season with Leonard and Penny redoing their wedding with family because a Lenny wedding is how to end the season two years in a row, Raj is not only still dating the woman he tried to break up with last finale but another one, Sheldon and Leonard's parents bickering and hooking up are going to steal all the thunder from the main cast for the finale, and that engagement ring has completely vanished off the radar as the virginity milestone has finally passed and been followed up with...nothing.

As Beverly would say: Yikes.

I liked to see something happen, finally. During Season 8 story wise literally nothing happened (apart, sadly, for Mrs. Wolowitz's death and the cliffhangers in the finale), this season at least we got Lenny's wedding, Shamy reconciliation and coitus, Howardette's baby (I could surely have made without it, TBH, but, let's be realistic here, it was meant to happen someday...) All these "milestones" could have had handled way better, for sure, but at least they happened.

I do agree with you, anyway, that the first half of the season was better than the second. There was a "project" behind, in retrospect you can see it. It was something "fresh" for TBBT, following a long story arc with such an insistence over the episodes is something never happened before. As a Shamy, I found that exhausting as it was happening, but it was also exciting to wait for the TRs every Wednesday morning (my time zone).

In the second half of the season there were some "sparks", but they all ended in nothing. The Raj plot was for me the most disappointing. I never liked Emily and I never found any chemistry in Rajily. But  Emily's character in Season 8 was completely reversed without any explanation in Season 9. The writers turned her natural creepiness down (even if it is hard to tell, since despite LS being regular this season she was on screen less than in Season 8 ),  I can't believe that the tough girl who liked to cut people and slammed the door on Raj's face on VD could beg him to speak to her again and accept a "casual" relationship after having being his exclusive girlfriend for more than two years. I also hated how Raj "love" problems were handled by the group, and by the girls in particular. The scene in Penny's apartment was cringeworthy for me, there was no empathy whatsoever towards Emily, despite her being a part of the group (at least off-screen) for two years. The plot was developed very poorly, barely a two minutes back and forth among the three of them, and we have learnt just out of a trow-away line that both girls are ok with "casual" dating, even if in the same episode Claire didn't seem 100% ok with it. I'm very sorry that this ridiculous story has made it to Season 10.

As for Penny, Lenny and, by extension, the living arrangements, I found the hints given during the season about Penny "problems" in growing up kind of interesting. They could have been deepened much more and it could have been an interesting plot line. As it could have been interesting to follow her struggles with a job she doesn't like any more. But, again, it all ended in nothing. Those problems might have been used to explain the living arrangements as they are. I agree that it is right now the biggest problem in the show, I think there's nobody among the fan base (maybe Shennies? LOL!) who wants that they remain as they are.  Anyway, as long as the writers don't want to fix it (their show, their rules, after all...) I would be happy with them attempting to give an explanation for them. They don't make any sense right now. Lenny remained in 4A to help Sheldon during a difficult moment. It was not ideal even at the time, but it was an explanation (again, I would have preferred Lenny out of 4A in 9.04, but I took it). Now of course this explanation is no longer valid, Sheldon is doing pretty well but, instead of finding another reason for them to stay there, the writers just ignore the problem. Even in 9.21 the fight made so little sense because the only reasonable question "Why are those three still living together?" was never asked, by anybody.

This leads me to the finale...TBH, I'm glad there wasn't any "dramatic" change, I'd rather prefer to have a quite summer than the out of the blue cliffhanger of the previous season. I didn't find the idea of Beverly sorry for not having being invited to Lenny wedding OOC for her. In the mothers episode last season she attempted, in her own "cold" way, to get closer to her son after she realized that her way of raising children was not the best possible. So for me it makes sense she that was offended for not having been invited to Lenny's wedding and that she hid it in the 200th episode. What I found strange and disappointing from a writing PoV, anyway, is that not even for people who were at the taping it's clear if it ended with a cliffhanger (Malfred?) and the wedding re-do will be celebrated in the Season 10 premiere, or if the whole re-do stuff was just an excuse to have a bunch of guest stars in the finale and we'll never hear about it again.

Edited May 1, 2016 by mirs1

[Guest]

1 hour ago, wowbagger said:

But I have a question regarding response length (which you mustn't feel obliged to answer): how exactly do you think people will respond to your posts if they disagree with specific points? Are you really happy for them to just say 'Bollocks', and leave it at that? That seems like a....difficult...world to inhabit.

Unless! What you really mean is that you don't want anybody to respond to your posts at all unless they agree with you? Nah, that can't be right.

Oh, and feel free to respond- if you'd like to- with an eyeroll emoji and a 'TL;DR'.

You obviously misunderstood my post. I didn't say you can't write huge walls of text. It's just a huge pain in the ass to read/quote them, especially on phone. Do whatever you want, but don't expect anyone to reply to the whole thing.

And I can't see where any of the changes you listed above are unnatural. Just because you don't like the changes doesn't mean they're unnatural. I feel like some of you are just waiting for something to complain about. 

Here's the eyeroll emoticon you wanted to see so desperately: 

[djsurrey]

2 hours ago, camelliayao said:

I think because Amy's just a plot tool, there're no consistencies in her behavior. Like she was so desperate to see Sheldon without his pants on that she checked him for bugs in 920. But she gave up the opportunity to take care of him when he was sick in 913, despite that she would get to do all sorts of "intimate" things to Sheldon if she took care of him, like helping him shower, or rub Vicks on his chest.

Okay but Sheldon was over the top annoying when he is sick and he exaggerates his issues at the best of times. It seems fully consistent to me that Amy can get annoyed.

 

[Jonny]

There are a lot of storylines going on that will have to be developed and some resolved. I thought maybe they might have done that with for example the engagement or perhaps even the Raj love life storyline but they didn't. I think the writers and everyone involved must be supremely confident Season 10 will not be the last, if they have at least two more seasons then can and will slow it down.

Been thinking about the Howard and Bernie baby storyline and it's going to be interesting to see how they address it. Will we actually see a baby on the show, will it be some kind of running joke when you never see the baby really with Howard or Bernie rushing around changing nappies or whatever off screen, or perhaps they do hire a nanny for the times when they are socializing with the group? Whatever happens it has the potential to have a huge impact on the show or particular characters and storylines.

The thought of this Raj storyline dragging out over the whole of next season doesn't really appeal to me. I think the Season 9 finale could could have been a great opportunity for Raj to have been burned badly by his actions and as a result gone on a much needed soul searching trip to grow up and come back next season a bit of a changed man. Instead we could see him carrying on the way he has or even worse introduce a third woman into the mix.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2016 by Jonny83

[Lionne]

@mirs1 except for the thing about Beverly, I agree with everything you said. My biggest complaint about season 8 was that nothing happened to the main characters, except Penny getting a new job and the death of Mrs. Wolowitz. And the Shamy ILY? There was some great episodes and funny stuff in season 8, but not much happened. Which is part of why I loved season 9 at first - it was moving along at a good clip. Lenny got married, Amy and Sheldon had their break up arc, ending in them finally having sex. But I think that the larger disappointment is starting to stem from the other side of those events, and seeing how those big milestones haven't impacted anything, and saw no follow thru, combined with the fact the show has done this lack of progression too many times for people to ignore it anymore. If the big milestones for the show had no impact just here in the latter half of season 9, we'd consider it an oddity and think maybe things would pick up in season 10. But when Lenny got engaged at the end of season 7, spent all of season 8 ignoring their own engagement until the last episode, had their wedding overshadowed by an argument about fidelity and break up of two other characters to start season 9, and spend the rest of the season acting like a very poorly married couple and are still not living on their own by the end of the season? The show drags on too long with nothing changing, nothing happening, season after season. Even the truly diehard fans are disgruntled and disgusted, and it's a shame because all the material has been built and is right there to execute?