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[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9

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7 hours ago, Lionne said:

It is. ;) It's nice to vent it all and get it off my shoulders. Feelings and opinions are ever evolving things, I've gone through a lot of ups and downs with the show. Right now I'm in one of the down swings, but like I said before, this is pretty standard with TBBT's pattern. They struggle in the second act. You talk it out, move onto the next episode, the next season. But after all is said and done with this season, I've got a lot of doubts, and I've watched a lot of my old comrades fall off the radar and drop the show and the Shamy ship the last three years, and they're really dropping like flies right now. It's sad, but I can't blame them. I really can't.

Late reply is late cause I had to get some sleep in the meantime. Only quoting this short post but this touches on some other points from your other posts - apologies if this seems a bit all over the place. lol

First of all, yes, venting is great. Get all that frustration out and ideally move on with a more calmed mind. *thumbs up* But -and this is me diving back at little into these nitpicky arguments- there's often also a bit of a spiral of negativity in fandom discussions that loses sight of the actual point that someone might have wanted to make initially. So as valid as some criticisms may seem not everyone of them is a particularly productive discussion to have, IMHO. It sometimes creates an echo chamber of negativity and people easily burn out on that because it's so damn exhausting. But the really frustrating part is when it's because of fandom itself clinging to an unimportant off-hand comment from years ago - like the Fiasal thing. I wouldn't even remember that line if it weren't for certain fanfics dragging this up again and again. Heck, I first time I stumbled upon a fanfic like that I had no idea who this guy was because I didn't remember this line at all but somehow it had become a big part in fandom lore and it's baffling me to this day. So while yes, technically it was the show that caused this inconsistency by throwing in a cheap joke, it's entirely down to fandom blowing this up and their frustration here is very much self-made.

Now, the argument can be made "But the writers should know how obsessive fandom is!!" and actually I'm sure they did get the message by now. Ever so often they talk in interviews about how the audience taught them not to go too far with certain things cause they're passionate about the characters and very protective of them. I'm pretty sure at least part of that lesson was learned by bunch of angry fan messages. lol But still, that kind of idea that they should know how to cover all their bases is a bit of a slippery slope cause it assumes the writers should be able to foresee all sorts of fan reactions and what lines they latch onto and what will conveniently fall by the wayside because it doesn't fit the preferred narrative of fandom lore. Seeing how diverse the opinions and tastes are it's inevitable that there'll always be some miscalculations on their part and a misunderstanding between what the show does and what the fandom thinks it does or wants it to do.

Personally, the way that I'm dealing with this kind of inconsistencies thanks to having been involved in different fandoms for a while now is asking myself: 1) Is the character's behaviour plausible within the realms of erratic and irrational human behaviour?, 2) Does the plot at least serve a narrative purpose of some sort that I like? and as a last resort 3) Is it funny enough to justify a stupid line here or there? And most of the time this covers the bases for TBBT (I say this as someone who's watched and loved shows that are so much worse on continuity - this is child's play here) hence why I'm pretty relaxed for the most part. It's not about trying to square the circle but simply being picky about what narrative choices matter to me and a certain willingness to let the writers tell their story and see where this goes. Having a bit of flexibility here is key to my sanity. lol

For example the thing with Beverly: She's a complex character and one side of her certainly is this ice queen eschewing personal attachments and social events - especially when it comes to the relationship with her son. But we've also seen her letting her hair down a little (especially after drinking out with Penny) and the last we saw her in S8 she was kinda sorta prodded into at least trying to be a better mother. So then only a few weeks after that her son elopes and she didn't even get the memo to watch the online stream. Do I think she's upset about not being invited to Vegas or not getting a proper big party? No, and I don't think that's what the show is trying to say either from what we got in the extended TR. But I can easily buy that she might have felt at least a little offended about not being involved in any way or form and that she only opened up about it over another glass of wine while Penny confronted her about her insults. From the sounds of it she doesn't seem to dive into much sentimentality here so it's definitely in the realms of plausible behaviour in my book. And the whole re-do idea comes from Penny in an attempt to bond with her and it evolves into something more because she sees a chance to involve her family and friends this time.

Which leads us to S10: Like you I dearly hope we start out with the re-do wedding. At least judging from the TR this didn't seem to have taken place already in 9x24. So the options here are either it'll take place off-screen and we open S10 after a time jump, or we'll open S10 with the re-do. And maybe that then will kick off a strong first half of S10 and it then fizzles out again as we approach S11. TBBT seems to have a seasonal rhythm that is slightly out of whack with the rest of the entertainment industry recently. That isn't to say that hyping up expectations and letting people hang until the next season is an unheard thing for a show but it's getting frustrating when certain developments have been teased for years and nothing has come out of it. As some point the writers will have to bite the bullet though cause we've reached a point when the dissatisfaction with the show's homoeostasis is growing among the general audience as well as the more invested fandom. It's coming up more and more in recent articles cause the idea is nurtured by the show itself. The audience is ready for change to happen, the characters are ready, it's only the writers that need to make the call.

Anyway, this rambling is getting a bit aimless by now so I'll take a break for now and make some tea.

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On 4/26/2016 at 6:36 PM, Radar said:

Well, at least we can all agree on this question as far as Shamy are concerned: The time we saw them in bed and they were lying closer together than ever before was 'Opening Night'! And the time we saw them in bed together and they were farthest apart was...let me think...I know! 'Opening Night'! :haha:

Mind you, we have seen them very close together, on Amy's couch.

On 4/26/2016 at 10:59 PM, Nogravitasatall said:

Amy has her moments too, where she reflects on the madness that is Sheldon... then she turns around and dives back in.

As the saying goes, love is blind.

Quote

Sheldon hires Stuart to spend the day with Amy when he’d rather go to a movie screening

If Sheldon had seen how Stuart hit on Amy, when they were broken up, he wouldn't let Stuart within 5 miles of Amy, let alone let Stuart be alone with her.

Edited by Stephen Hawking

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On 4/27/2016 at 1:23 AM, phantagrae said:

And if Beverly mentions that she now feels disappointed in not being able to attend their wedding, Penny may feel bad trying to justify it all, etc. out.

But, at Sheldon's Birthday Party, Beverly thanked Leonard and Penny, for not inviting her.

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51 minutes ago, Lionne said:

@mirs1 except for the thing about Beverly, I agree with everything you said. My biggest complaint about season 8 was that nothing happened to the main characters, except Penny getting a new job and the death of Mrs. Wolowitz. And the Shamy ILY? There was some great episodes and funny stuff in season 8, but not much happened. Which is part of why I loved season 9 at first - it was moving along at a good clip. Lenny got married, Amy and Sheldon had their break up arc, ending in them finally having sex. But I think that the larger disappointment is starting to stem from the other side of those events, and seeing how those big milestones haven't impacted anything, and saw no follow thru, combined with the fact the show has done this lack of progression too many times for people to ignore it anymore. If the big milestones for the show had no impact just here in the latter half of season 9, we'd consider it an oddity and think maybe things would pick up in season 10. But when Lenny got engaged at the end of season 7, spent all of season 8 ignoring their own engagement until the last episode, had their wedding overshadowed by an argument about fidelity and break up of two other characters to start season 9, and spend the rest of the season acting like a very poorly married couple and are still not living on their own by the end of the season? The show drags on too long with nothing changing, nothing happening, season after season. Even the truly diehard fans are disgruntled and disgusted, and it's a shame because all the material has been built and is right there to execute? 

My impression is that at the beginning of Season 9 they didn't know how much time they had, so the writers decided to get some milestones "done", just in case Season 10 was indeed the last and they needed to start wrapping things up. Then negotiations went on and on and now they have a more realistic idea of how many seasons they have in store (possibly, according to some hints here and there in the cast interviews they could have even a Season 12...). The rhythm changed drastically in the second half of the season and they, as you notice, returned to their "usual" way of telling stories (or not telling them...)  I get that it is frustrating for die-hard fans, and may lead some of us to give up the show and the fandom. The point, for me, is that this show is no more meant just for die-hard fans, but for casual viewers. I'm sure die-hard fans hate the living arrangements, the way Shamy coitus aftermath was handled, the inconsistencies in the plot we find out with increasing frequency in the show and all the things we are discussing these days, but is that true for the casual viewers? We may never have an answer to that, because it's difficult to track the "casual" viewers' opinions (they don't write on forums or social media about the show). Their answers are the ratings, and at the moment it seems they are doing fine, at least their drop  seems to be more or less comparable to the general drop in TV viewers.

Edited by mirs1
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14 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

But, at Sheldon's Birthday Party, Beverly thanked Leonard and Penny, for not inviting her.

Maybe Beverly went back home and told Leonard's brother and sister and they were upset they weren't invited and pointed out to Bev that she was invited to their weddings (if they're married) and that made Bev reassess her statement.

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On 4/27/2016 at 7:55 AM, Chiany said:

One thing I have to give credit to the writers for, they are consistent this season, all episodes were a big pile of crap.

Ear-worm and Opening Night were "a big pile of crap"?

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On 4/27/2016 at 8:07 AM, mirs1 said:

TBH, I'd rather preferred that at least the Raj plot was solved.

I wanted a Shamy engagement, with a wedding in 10.02 :angry: 

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1 hour ago, Jonny83 said:

There are a lot of storylines going on that will have to be developed and some resolved. I thought maybe they might have done that with for example the engagement or perhaps even the Raj love life storyline but they didn't. I think the writers and everyone involved must be supremely confident Season 10 will not be the last, if they have at least two more seasons then can and will slow it down.

Been thinking about the Howard and Bernie baby storyline and it's going to be interesting to see how they address it. Will we actually see a baby on the show, will it be some kind of running joke when you never see the baby really with Howard or Bernie rushing around changing nappies or whatever off screen, or perhaps they do hire a nanny for the times when they are socializing with the group? Whatever happens it has the potential to have a huge impact on the show or particular characters and storylines.

The thought of this Raj storyline dragging out over the whole of next season doesn't really appeal to me. I think the Season 9 finale could could have been a great opportunity for Raj to have been burned badly by his actions and as a result gone on a much needed soul searching trip to grow up and come back next season a bit of a changed man. Instead we could see him carrying on the way he has or even worse introduce a third woman into the mix.

 

 

Oh...my greatest wish for Howardette's baby is that she is a baby girl, they name her after his mother and the girl turns out to be as invisible as her  grandma. I was never excited by the "baby" fever, I would have made for sure without a kid in the show. But even at the beginning of Season 9 (in 9.07) it became  evident that the writers were going there for Howardette. At least they are not the main couple and don't live in the main set, so the presence of the baby will no affect the show so much. But having an invisible baby (as they had an invisible Howard's mother) would be genius, IMO. I imagine the baby screaming or doing whatever a kid do from his\her bedroom (as a real Wolowitz)  and the poor parents trying to calm him\her down off screen. Maybe, a possible exception could be when he\she is born, we see the baby once and after that, all happens off screen.

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On 4/27/2016 at 8:30 AM, stardustmelody said:

But more important, Penny has only had one wedding and one dinner reception that we know of so far based on the finale.

Actually, she's had two weddings.

She had one with Zack, and one with Leonard.

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Preview for Episode 9.23 The Line Substitution Solution is up!

31 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Actually, she's had two weddings.

She had one with Zack, and one with Leonard.

True but the context of the conversation was about Beverly wishing to witness the wedding, so we were talking only about how many times she "wedded" Leonard.   :girlwink: 

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Quote
1 hour ago, Stephen Hawking said:

I wanted a Shamy engagement, with a wedding in 10.02 :angry: 

 

I so want Amy's prediction of their marriage in "exactly four years" from 6.02 to come true as well.  It still can, but it will be a very short or non-existent engagement.

However, I've lived all of my life with the disappointment of Star Trek's original "five year mission" lasting only three seasons, so I suppose that I will be able to survive the failure of them to marry on schedule as well.

Edited by Lady in Red
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@wowbagger, I loved Season 8 too, more or less for your same reasons. It was a beautiful season for Shamy, and I loved their interactions during it. But, indeed, it was a flat season story-wise. That's why I welcomed (maybe not while they were happening, but now for sure) the changes in the first part of Season 9. I agree anyway with some of your remarks.

Lenny wedding and the resolution of Lenny cliffhanger were rushed and made little sense. Leonard nightmare in 9.02 had no point in the story (I don't even see how it could be related to Leonard understanding Penny PoV about the kiss, TBH) and after they reconciled nobody talked about the issues anymore (in perfect TBBT style). The wedding was underwhelming and for this I've hoped since we heard about the 9.23 spoilers in a redo in the finale. 

As for Shamy break up, I think (in retrospect, now that the season is over) it had a point and the story arc was related with Sheldon's growth. Amy's PoV anyway was mostly missing, I'd rather see something more about her struggles during the period apart, but I found the made up made sense; the aquarium date and her wanting him back no questions asked for me was the way she realized that "romance" may have different forms and she had found the quirky one that fit her. I don't think at all she reverted to Season 6-7 Amy afterwords. The relationship changed after they reconciled, there is still eye-rolling sometimes because it's normal in a relationship that sometimes you roll your eyes; but the way they handle the fights and the disagreements is pretty different from what happened before (with the possible exception of 9.21, I thought it could lead to something different plot wise but, as it didn't, that episode is absolutely non-sense from head to toe...). They are more honest and direct in facing the problems, Amy has grown the spine she had lost in the infamous Season 6-7. For me she is not the person she was during that period, even the references to sex in Season 9 are for me way more joyful and flirting than the angry ones she had back then and Sheldon's reactions (even if "oblivious Sheldon" is an old joke and I don't find it funny any more) are not the same insulting reactions in Season 6/7 either. For the rest, I agree with you; as a shipper, I think that the coitus aftermath was not well handled; this is one of the plots that remained unsolved during the second half of the seasons and a couple of well thought questions about it by Amy (maybe not in 9.11, but somewhere around the cabin episode...) could have been useful on that respect.

As for Penny's career,  I still think that it could have made for a nice plot for the character, and I hope the writers do something about it in Season 10. In Season 7 she was facing her shattered dreams, now she is dealing with the aftermath about that,  with growing up, and finding a compromise between paying her debts (I overlook here the strange state of Penny's finances that changes from time to time) and doing something she really likes. I hope next season her career finds a balance between those two things.

About Raj...well..."ugh, Raj" is your Trade Mark and we can't disagree here!

PS: Mine was the first post at page 666...It scared the crap out of me, LOL!!!

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10 minutes ago, mirs1 said:

@wowbagger, I loved Season 8 too, more or less for your same reasons. It was a beautiful season for Shamy, and I loved their interactions during it. But, indeed, it was a flat season story-wise. That's why I welcomed (maybe not while they were happening, but now for sure) the changes in the first part of Season 9. I agree anyway with some of your remarks.

Lenny wedding and the resolution of Lenny cliffhanger were rushed and made little sense. Leonard nightmare in 9.02 had no point in the story (I don't even see how it could be related to Leonard understanding Penny PoV about the kiss, TBH) and after they reconciled nobody talked about the issues anymore (in perfect TBBT style). The wedding was underwhelming and for this I've hoped since we heard about the 9.23 spoilers in a redo in the finale. 

As for Shamy break up, I think (in retrospect, now that the season is over) it had a point and the story arc was related with Sheldon's growth. Amy's PoV anyway was mostly missing, I'd rather see something more about her struggles during the period apart, but I found the made up made sense; the aquarium date and her wanting him back no questions asked for me was the way she realized that "romance" may have different forms and she had found the quirky one that fit her. I don't think at all she reverted to Season 6-7 Amy afterwords. The relationship changed after they reconciled, there is still eye-rolling sometimes because it's normal in a relationship that sometimes you roll your eyes; but the way they handle the fights and the disagreements is pretty different from what happened before (with the possible exception of 9.21, I thought it could lead to something different plot wise but, as it didn't, that episode is absolutely non-sense from head to toe...). They are more honest and direct in facing the problems, Amy has grown the spine she had lost in the infamous Season 6-7. For me she is not the person she was during that period, even the references to sex in Season 9 are for me way more joyful and flirting than the angry ones she had back then and Sheldon's reactions (even if "oblivious Sheldon" is an old joke and I don't find it funny any more) are not the same insulting reactions in Season 6/7 either. For the rest, I agree with you; as a shipper, I think that the coitus aftermath was not well handled; this is one of the plots that remained unsolved during the second half of the seasons and a couple of well thought questions about it by Amy (maybe not in 9.11, but somewhere around the cabin episode...) could have been useful on that respect.

As for Penny's career,  I still think that it could have made for a nice plot for the character, and I hope the writers do something about it in Season 10. In Season 7 she was facing her shattered dreams, now she is dealing with the aftermath about that,  with growing up, and finding a compromise between paying her debts (I overlook here the strange state of Penny's finances that changes from time to time) and doing something she really likes. I hope next season her career finds a balance between those two things.

About Raj...well..."ugh, Raj" is your Trade Mark and we can't disagree here!

PS: Mine was the first post at page 666...It scared the crap out of me, LOL!!!

Awww, mirs, you are way too reasonable for the internet. And yes, I agree with most of your points. I really, really hope that the next season allows Penny career fulfilment. I know it's realistic for people (especially those who want careers in the arts) to struggle and be frustrated, but it's sad that Penny is never allowed to be good at a job that she loves. She is surrounded by people who are successful in challenging, competitive fields (academia's no picnic, especially in the States) and are furthermore doing things they're passionate about. It has to hurt. 

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While I'm not (happy?) with the set up for 9x23, Sheldon did look genuinely affected when Stuart yelled at him as "Amy" 

Normally when people get mad at Sheldon he brushes it off that they "don't understand" or are stupid for getting mad at him.

But Amy's words (even though it was Stuart's voice lol) seemed to hit close to home. 

As long as Amy can help Sheldon understand how his actions were hurtful without coming across as nagging and simply reading him the riot act, then to me that does show progress for them. 

Of course this is IMO, (if you don't agree, no worries :icon_cheesygrin:

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On 4/27/2016 at 2:53 PM, Lady in Red said:

As you can see, you would never get money directly.

Unless they were Braz Brazzelton.  :icon_biggrin: 

On 4/27/2016 at 2:56 PM, hokie3457 said:

Also of beautiful note was her wearing the heart locket in two consecutive episodesess!!!

Would that be the same, heart shaped locket, she wore in Alien Parasite?

The one Amy explained:-

is not actually based on the shape of a human heart, but rather on the shape of the buttocks of a female bending over.

:icon_biggrin:

On 4/27/2016 at 4:57 AM, luminous said:

She's cute.

Do we know who she is?

ETA: Isn't she the girl in the blue shirt, in the Uptown Funk Flash Mob?

Edited by Stephen Hawking

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10 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Unless they were Braz Brazzelton.

Of course.  Anything can happen in the Land of Make Believe that is television or the movies.

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On 4/27/2016 at 6:50 PM, 2L344 said:

Leonard worked on lasers that the military was interested in.

Are you sure?

From the The Higgs Boson Observation:-

Alex: So, what kind of research are you doing?

Leonard: High-energy lasers.

Alex: Ooh. Military?

Leonard: Not yet, but I can remove unwanted hair from two miles away.

I don't recall him making any further reference, to his laser research becoming military.

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I don't believe there'll be a nice storyline about Penny's career. The show spent its first 7 seasons ignoring Penny as an actress, gave her a job out of nowhere in season 8 and spent a lot of time talking about it, only to tell us she was not happy with it in season 9. Why would I believe this time there'll be anything different.

And the risk in believing in the writers is that you constantly find yourself being a fool. We all guessed 9x21 would be a build up for season finale. It turned out nothing really happened in the finale. We were so sure that the writers would address Shamy coitus problem in the second half of this season. But here we are, half a year after their coitus, besides some Shamy sex jokes, again nothing happened. And I used to believe there was a lot of uniqueness between Shamy. But the writers just keep telling me that I was wrong. So Amy was only pretending to like their RA (meetings) before. So the 8x17 hug was not precious at all since Sheldon now enjoys hugging in general. So Sheldon is not attracted to Amy physically anyway because well, I don't see anything that indicates he is since the coutis episode. So Sheldon wasn't mature enough to live on his own and he didn't really want to marry Amy because he now seems perfectly comfortable with living with Lenny forever and never mentioning the engagement ring again. And the worst part is, even Amy knows about the engagement ring now. So we know, the group know, Sheldon knows, Mary knows, Meemaw knows, and Amy knows. But are the writers gonna talk about it? No. What an innovative way to ruin the surprise and turn something special into awkwardness. So Sheldon and Amy didn't learn anything from the break up because she's still whining all the time and he's a even bigger ass to her (and only to her, the one person that he should treat differently; because Sheldon is a total sweetheart to others now) than before. Remind me why they're still together?

I know things may be different in general audience's eyes. They don't see the problems. But why would I speak for general audience? General audience show their attitudes through rating numbers. I am fan. And as a fan, I think the show sucks storytelling-wise. 

Edited by camelliayao
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On 4/27/2016 at 7:46 PM, wowbagger said:

And the next morning Claire and Emily send him links to a website in which they have posted unflattering things about the size of his member and his prowess as a lover.

Wouldn't that tend to reflect badly on Emily too?

On 4/27/2016 at 8:01 PM, stardustmelody said:

Do we know if Raj ever submitted to the naturalization process?

He hadn't applied for citizenship, half way through Season 7.

How long does the citizenship process take?

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On 4/27/2016 at 8:29 PM, Lady in Red said:

Then, of course, no one would be following Howard's car in the first place, and he would not be in a panic.

I thought the only people following Howard's car, were their friends, and their families?

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23 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

I thought the only people following Howard's car, were their friends, and their families?

Yes, I was just coming up with a plausible scenario where government agents would have a reason to follow Howard.  Violation of export control laws will probably be ignored by the writers, or they could come up with a quick one sentence explanation to make it go away, or it could grow into a full blown issue.  For the most part it seems that the writers ignore regulations, but they did have an episode where Howard was getting a government background check that blew up into a lot of laughs. 

Edited by Lady in Red

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On 4/27/2016 at 10:08 PM, joyceraye said:

Raj is a Cambridge man. That place has been a hotbed of espionage in the past and may well still be so.

Yes indeed.

Philby, Maclean, Burgess, Blunt and Cairncross.

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34 minutes ago, Stephen Hawking said:

Are you sure?

From the The Higgs Boson Observation:-

Alex: So, what kind of research are you doing?

Leonard: High-energy lasers.

Alex: Ooh. Military?

Leonard: Not yet, but I can remove unwanted hair from two miles away.

I don't recall him making any further reference, to his laser research becoming military.

He told Penny, cant remember the episode, that he got a government grant to see if lasers can knock out incoming ICBMs, and when she asked if they could he said "God no!" and the equipment can make a bat signal.

Also, the fuel that he blew the elevator up with was associated with government reaearch he was doing on military rocket fuel, which caught the eye of that north korean spy.

I would say leonard has had his share of working on military projects. thats why i hope the show doesnt make a big deal out of it. good money in government contracts!

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