[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9

[joyceraye]

1 hour ago, camelliayao said:

No, actually in the preview, you can see him saying "Amy's making me go shopping with her" in a quite annoyed and unhappy tone. I think he wants to avoid going shopping with Amy. Not sure which part exactly though. Going shopping or Amy.

Perhaps his mother's finally decided to outsource the buying of his underpants and Amy insists he go with her.

 

[Judith]

16 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

Especially most of the time Sheldon and Penny can get along well while when it comes to their significant others, there're always problems and arguments and eye rolling.

Most of what time? Sheldon and Penny haven't had many scenes alone in this season. Sheldon and Amy, on the other hand, went through a lot in their relationship and were put together into many different situations, with a couple of them leading to arguments.

I just don't see how anyone can make comparisons between them. And I'm really not a fan of "Sheldon did A with Penny, then didn't want to do B with Amy, which equals C, or similar trains of thought. I don't see what the connection is there.

[camelliayao]

28 minutes ago, Judith said:

Most of what time? Sheldon and Penny haven't had many scenes alone in this season. Sheldon and Amy, on the other hand, went through a lot in their relationship and were put together into many different situations, with a couple of them leading to arguments.

I just don't see how anyone can make comparisons between them. And I'm really not a fan of "Sheldon did A with Penny, then didn't want to do B with Amy, which equals C, or similar trains of thought. I don't see what the connection is there.

Yes, but the scenes S&P have together are either touching or having fun together or, bonding.

The connection is after 9x11, there actually was only one scene about Shamy having fun together, 920 tag scene. You can count them toasting in 915 as one too, but it doesn't really count IMO. Then there's one scene of Sheldon and Penny having fun together. 1:1. There's the connection.

Also Shamy haven't even touched each other since 9x11. And Sheldon and Penny hug once. 0:1. There's the connection again.

And I don't even want to count the times of those scenes where Penny is all smily and sweet with Sheldon but sarcastic and whiney with Leonard. Because that's just sad.

Oh wait, they even wrote an episode where Amy said it out loud that she's a little annoyed by the special relationship between S&P. But of course she was overreacting because some of us didn't see the problem.

And there are definately people, actually quite a lot of people out there questioning if Sheldon and Penny are better matches for each other. I don't see how the things I mention above will help make their doubts go away, or if writers actually want the doubts to go away. One of my friends who's not a fan watched 9x21 and asked me "are they trying to write Sheldon and Penny together?

Like I said. I understand that you don't understand. But it still doesn't change how I feel.

Edited May 5, 2016 by camelliayao

[Judith]

On May 5, 2016 at 0:24 AM, camelliayao said:

Yes, but the scenes S&P have together are either touching or having fun togher or, bonding.

The connection is after 9x11, there actually was only one scene about Shamy having fun together, 920 tag scene. You can count them toasting in 915 as one too, but it doesn't really count IMO. Then there's one scene of Sheldon and Penny having fun together. 1:1. There's the connection.

Also Shamy haven't even touched each other since 9x11. And Sheldon and Penny hug once. 0:1. There's the connection again.

And I don't even want to count the times of those scenes where Penny is all smily and sweet with Sheldon but sarcastic and whiney with Leonard. Because that's just sad.

And there are definately people, actually quite a lot of people out there questioning if Sheldon and Penny are better matches for each other. I don't see how the things I mention above will help make their doubts go away, or if writers actually want the doubts to go away. One of my friends who's not a fan watche 9x21 and asked me "are they trying to write Sheldon and Penny together?

Like I said. I understand that you don't understand. But it still doesn't change how I feel.

Sheldon and Amy have also had such scenes.

Sheldon also had fun with Bernie. He made a special game just for her.

Um, is there some kind of invisible border between 9x10 and 9x11 and the rest of the season? Is Sheldon not allowed to hug Penny? The lack of on-screen physical intimacy between Sheldon and Amy is separate from Sheldon and Penny hugging.

 

 

[snow*flower]

I get what you guys mean, I know their sweet moments are not considered flirting or anything but for me it’s like they’re hinting these subtle things that are almost like their crossing a line without actually crossing THE line.  I know, It’s annoying and I get it.

[ajond]

2 hours ago, camelliayao said:

Yes he likes Taylor Swift and he has an eidetic memory but he still acts like he's having a hard time remembering who the person on the card is. Interesting.

And Penny learned a little science before. But the last time she did that, it was for Leonard and it was so sweet. Now this is just another example of how comfortable Penny is living with Sheldon.

That's more wonderful.

It wasn't sweet at all. Sheldon taught her  to parrot some words which were actually dissing Leonard. Pretty much what you would expect of Sheldon.

[legacy99]

I can see tptb keeping track of the number of viewers and i guess they have gone down some along with television viewers in general.but i could seriously see them testing the waters with sheldon and penny. Of course they could be doing that now again they do like to say they like to take things slow

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[serena_1995]

Its just 1 small scene between  S/P with no bearing on the rest of the episode I assume.  Thats why  I shared it. Regretting it now.  LOL. I don't find it OOC tbh. Atleast not anything they haven't done previously. Sheldon and Penny have sometimes had their behavior weirdly rub off on each other, leading to some wacky situations. 

Remember Penny gets addicted to online gaming due to Sheldon ?  Remember Penny  made him watch The Lake House ? Still LOLing at that one :D That was back in season 2. Sheldon also reads Cosmo and gets a haircut after Penny advises him on 'breaking up' with String Theory. So maybe she just made him watch Kardashians on TV? 

The only thing you  could possibly read as OOC was that Penny was chuckling at Sheldon's contract jokes , not Amy. But I doubt any viewer would even notice that. Ofcourse,  everyone has the right to interpret it the way they want. But I'm gonna stop here too.

@Judith  LOL. yeah, I remember reading about Kris' hairstylist. He could totally be  the dad. Though I also heard, Khloe's daddy could be Lionnel Ritchie or OJ(shudder !!) . You know,  like Sheldon said, she looks nothing like Kim or Kourtney. Me thinks, Khloe  doesn't look much like Kris either or her bro,  Rob for that matter . 

Edited May 5, 2016 by serena_nyc1995

[camelliayao]

Since I don't want to quote anyone...

Sheldon and Amy have also had such scenes. ——You mean besides 9x20 tag scene? Where?

Um, is there some kind of invisible border between 9x10 and 9x11 and the rest of the season?——Yes. And the border is coitus. Shamy had sex for the first time. And it really was out of desire not Sheldon's need to please Amy so she won't break up with him again, there should be at least some changes between them physically. So there should be some physical intimacy like handholding or hugging or kissing between Shamy after 9x11 IMO.

The lack of on-screen physical intimacy between Sheldon and Amy——Sadly, I don't see any indications about off-screen physical intimacy between Shamy either. If the writers make arrangements about Shamy coitus like they did about with them kissing, or even just one sentence mentioning it, I'll be pleased. But no. Nothing. Coitus was followed by nothing. It's like it never happened.

Is Sheldon not allowed to hug Penny?——Of course Sheldon's allowed to hug Penny. But like I said, having Penny hugging Sheldon and Sheldon enjoying it with Amy standing quietly right next to them and the fact that Shamy having zero physical contact after 9x11 won't help reduce people's doubts about whether Shenny are a better match. And I do believe the writers still want Shamy and Lenny to be canons? (Or do they...)

I also dgaf if there are people who think that S and P are a better match, I have my own opinions and they have theirs. We can co-exist. ——Yes, I'm not saying you should care about their opinions. I was simply explaining why I thought what I thought. The truth is the writers are constantly giving those people who believe in Shenny reasons to reinforce their beliefs. Especially since season 8. To think about it, why not Shenny? Penny always has a good time with Sheldon. Sheldon tells Penny things he wouldn't tell others. They don't argue. They even kiss once in Leonard's dreams. Also I don't see Sheldon has any desire towards Amy physically, at least not in the coitus episode, which makes Amy no special than others.

Actually the only thing that stands between Sheldon and Penny is that the writers tell us, that Shenny will never happen, that they're like sister and brother. Well if they are really doing the right thing, they don't need to tell us.

Edited May 5, 2016 by camelliayao

[camelliayao]

26 minutes ago, snow*flower said:

I get what you guys mean, I know their sweet moments are not considered flirting or anything but for me it’s like they’re hinting these subtle things that are almost like their crossing a line without actually crossing THE line.  I know, It’s annoying and I get it.

Exactly. And they even let Amy say it. Amy mentioned it twice that she was jealous about Shenny relationship. Especially in 9x21. If the writers really want people to believe there's nothing between Sheldon and Penny, they shouldn't have had Amy mentioned it in the first place, or they could've at least made some sort of explanation. Like maybe Sheldon knows about Amy's concerns and tells her it's ridiculous. Instead we have Penny and her pretty weak defence when Leonard confronted her, "What about your weird relationship with Sheldon?" I'm sorry but isn't that line her admitting that she does has a weird relationship with Sheldon?

[snow*flower]

19 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

Since I don't want to quote anyone...

Sheldon and Amy have also had such scenes. ——You mean besides 9x20 tag scene? Where?

Um, is there some kind of invisible border between 9x10 and 9x11 and the rest of the season?——Yes. And the border is coitus. Shamy had sex for the first time. And it really was out of desire not Sheldon's need to please Amy so she won't break up with him again, there should be at least some changes between them physically. So there should be some physical intimacy like handholding or hugging or kissing between Shamy after 9x11 IMO.

The lack of on-screen physical intimacy between Sheldon and Amy——Sadly, I don't see any indications about off-screen physical intimacy between Shamy either. If the writers make arrangements about Shamy coitus like they did about with them kissing, or even just one sentence mentioning it, I'll be pleased. But no. Nothing. Coitus was followed by nothing. It's like it never happened.

Is Sheldon not allowed to hug Penny?——Of course Sheldon's allowed to hug Penny. But like I said, having Penny hugging Sheldon and Sheldon enjoying it with Amy standing quietly right next to them and the fact that Shamy having zero physical contact after 9x11 won't help reduce people's doubts about whether Shenny are a better match. And I do believe the writers still want Shamy and Lenny to be canons? (Or do they...)

I also dgaf if there are people who think that S and P are a better match, I have my own opinions and they have theirs. We can co-exist. ——Yes, I'm not saying you should care about their opinions. I was simply explaining why I thought what I thought. The truth is the writers are constantly giving those people who believe in Shenny reasons to reinforce their beliefs. Especially since season 8. To think about it, why not Shenny? Penny always has a good time with Sheldon. Sheldon tells Penny things he wouldn't tell others. They don't argue. They even kiss once in Leonard's dreams. Also I don't see Sheldon has any desire towards Amy physically, at least not in the coitus episode, which makes Amy no special than others.

Actually the only thing that stands between Sheldon and Penny is that the writers tell us, that Shenny will never happen, that they're like sister and brother. Well if they are really doing the right thing, they don't need to tell us.

Yeah, I think it would've made sense if the guys sorta AT LEAST made little jokes about it.  Or something along the lines, Leonard calling Sheldon him you dog, like in the Locomotive episode.

[nibbler747]

I thought the scene was quite funny.   So true, Khloe is the one that doesn't look like any of them.  

Sheldon and Penny are friends.  I didn't mind this light hearted scene.  It doesn't mean they don't love their partners.  They were just playing a game where they teach the other. 

[nickelette424]

2 minutes ago, nibbler747 said:

I thought the scene was quite funny.   So true, Khloe is the one that doesn't look like any of them.  

Sheldon and Penny are friends.  I didn't mind this light hearted scene.  It doesn't mean they don't love their partners.  They were just playing a game where they teach the other. 

Nibbler, didn't you know?  That's how people fall in love. lol

Seriously, the one thing I've never gotten about this fandom is this paranoia that deep down there is something going on with Sheldon and Penny and despite the effort the writers but into their real romantic relationships, it will all be for not.  People can be friends and extremely close to people of the opposite sex and have it mean nothing but that, that they are close friends.  And there's not even anything going on here except playing a stupid game.  How dare they?  Don't they love Leonard and Amy?  Just ridiculous. 

[djsurrey]

Happily I know nothing about the Karashian's other than that they are on some reality tv show. That and Jay Leno used to joke about them.

[Tensor]

A couple of posts have been edited.  Just a reminder.  Based on our recent rules update.  Feel free to voice your opinion of the show.  Please do not comment about other members, groups, or others opinions or comments on how others post.

[JE7]

21 minutes ago, nickelette424 said:

Nibbler, didn't you know?  That's how people fall in love. lol

Seriously, the one thing I've never gotten about this fandom is this paranoia that deep down there is something going on with Sheldon and Penny and despite the effort the writers but into their real romantic relationships, it will all be for not.  People can be friends and extremely close to people of the opposite sex and have it mean nothing but that, that they are close friends.  And there's not even anything going on here except playing a stupid game.  How dare they?  Don't they love Leonard and Amy?  Just ridiculous. 

Sorry Nick but your only using half the equation like saying 2+ =4

Sheldon and Penny's behavior toward each other is half, but the other half is their behavior toward Leonerd and Amy respectively, if you consider both together you get a a much different outcome than considering only half the equation

The sad fact is they treat each other much better on average than they do their so

Edited May 5, 2016 by JE7

[luminous]

3 hours ago, legacy99 said:

Maybe because tptb say they want to build relationships slowly and imo it also means ending relationships slowly

2 hours ago, legacy99 said:

I get the impression that sheldon is pennys best friend now not leonard

 

[camelliayao]

I think I have a right to express what I feel. The opening scene of 9x23 makes me uncomfortable. Not because Sheldon and Penny are in the same scene playing a game, but because just in 9x21, Shamy had an argument while Sheldon and Penny were close and cute together following 9x22 where Shamy sort of had an argument again. Then it came 9x23. Again Shamy was fighting while S&P having a good time.

Also, maybe I'm too shallow to understand but if Sheldon doesn't have desire towards Amy and he's not as close to her as he's to Penny. Now they can't even have a good time together. Why do we call what Shamy have "love"? Why is Sheldon in love with Amy? Just because he says so?

Because Amy used to be the one who understands Sheldon most. Now since she isn't anymore. I think Sheldon needs Amy in his life because he needs her to take care of him. That's why he had coitus with her right after they got back together. I'm sorry if that's ridiculous but that's just how I feel and I've been feeling this since the coitus episode. I think Sheldon is just used to having Amy in his life but he doesn't really love her. He's in love with what Amy can do for him, not Amy.

[nickelette424]

14 minutes ago, JE7 said:

Sorry Nick but your only using half the equation like saying 2+ =4

Sheldon and Penny's behavior toward each other is half, but the other half is their behavior toward Leonerd and Amy respectively, if you consider both together you get a a much different outcome than considering only half the equation

The sad fact is they treat each other much better on average than they do their so

I disagree.  These relationships are separate things.  I don't care that that Sheldon and Penny get along.  And if Sheldon and Amy have issues, it has absolutely nothing to do with Sheldon and Penny's relationship.  I just don't see it.  And I definitely don't see it to the point of getting upset at them playing a stupid game.  

I don't think 3 scenes an season where they are shown getting along shows that they treat each other better than they treat their significant others.  I personally think the scenes they do have together are blown out of proportion and people let them minimize other scenes with their partners.   

[JE7]

5 minutes ago, nickelette424 said:

I disagree.  These relationships are separate things.  I don't care that that Sheldon and Penny get along.  And if Sheldon and Amy have issues, it has absolutely nothing to do with Sheldon and Penny's relationship.  I just don't see it.  And I definitely don't see it to the point of getting upset at them playing a stupid game.  

I don't think 3 scenes an season where they are shown getting along shows that they treat each other better than they treat their significant others.  I personally think the scenes they do have together are blown out of proportion and people let them minimize other scenes with their partners.   

Wow that's quite a vehement reply...

We shall just have to agree to disagree

[camelliayao]

1 minute ago, nickelette424 said:

I disagree.  These relationships are separate things.  I don't care that that Sheldon and Penny get along.  And if Sheldon and Amy have issues, it has absolutely nothing to do with Sheldon and Penny's relationship.  I just don't see it.  And I definitely don't see it to the point of getting upset at them playing a stupid game.  

I don't think 3 scenes an season where they are shown getting along shows that they treat each other better than they treat their significant others.  I personally think the scenes they do have together are blown out of proportion and people let them minimize other scenes with their partners.   

Of course it has nothing to do with Sheldon and Penny's relationship. People get upset because even though it's unrelated, the scene was such a strong contrast that it just made the Shamy conflict in the same episode sadder. People are angry because the writers always write Sheldon and others having fun together but when it comes to Amy, there're always arguments. Especially the very reason Shamy fall in love is that they understand each other and always enjoy each other's company.
 

[JE7]

1 minute ago, camelliayao said:

Of course it has nothing to do with Sheldon and Penny's relationship. People get upset because even though it's unrelated, the scene was such a strong contrast that it just made the Shamy conflict in the same episode sadder. People are angry because the writers always write Sheldon and others having fun together but when it comes to Amy, there're always arguments. Especially the very reason Shamy fall in love is that they understand each other and always enjoy each other's company.
 

Exactly it highlights the contrast when compared to their relationship with their significant others and highlights what the Shenny relationship has that the Lenny and Shamy relationships no longer do

[veejay]

10 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

Of course it has nothing to do with Sheldon and Penny's relationship. People get upset because even though it's unrelated, the scene was such a strong contrast that it just made the Shamy conflict in the same episode sadder. People are angry because the writers always write Sheldon and others having fun together but when it comes to Amy, there're always arguments. Especially the very reason Shamy fall in love is that they understand each other and always enjoy each other's company.

See....

"Of course it has nothing to do with Sheldon and Penny's relationship. People get upset because even though it's unrelated, some scene was such a strong contrast that it just made the Lenny conflict in some episodes sadder. People are angry because the writers always write Sheldon and others having fun together but when it comes to Leonard, there're always arguments. Especially the very reason Lenny fall in love is that they understand each other and always enjoy each other's company."

Edited May 5, 2016 by veejay

[wowbagger]

I guess I'm somewhere between @camelliayao and @nickelette424, @nibbler747 and @serena_nyc1995. I don't think there's any secret Shenny agenda about having Shenny goof off and have nice moments. I liked 'Intimacy'- not least because Leonard and Amy had their own stuff to do and felt zero qualms about having their significant others gaze deeply into each other's eyes and share secrets (hey, remember that, writers?)

I do think that the writers (not just of this show) historically have difficulty balancing friendships and romances- especially between friends of opposite sexes. It's possible for friends to goof off, get irritated with each other but be basically respectful- but all that harmony and understanding and commonality becomes terribly, terribly hard to write for a romantic couple- even if the couple started out as friends. Because it's easier to have couples at each other's throats. 

So there's that. 

And there's also my issue with the characterisation this season, which has wandered into this swamp where it's really hard to distinguish particular dynamics. @Lionne has brought this up before, and I've cribbed it before as well, so my apologies: whom would you expect to laugh at Sheldon's contract puns, Penny or Amy? Whom would you expect to be super into mediaeval fantasy, Penny or Chaucer-fan Amy? Whom would you expect to 'fake it' and mock Sheldon's thing about rules and procedure, Penny or Amy? And what is more, the show remembered that in an earlier episode this very season, when they had Penny snigger to Amy about how hard they'd be making out watching Sheldon get all excited about his contract with Howard and Leonard! Good lord, writers. When you can't even keep your characterisation straight from one episode to the next in the same season, we have problems. And, while I'm quoting other posters, I'll crib from @koops as well: I like Shenny and Sheldonette, but as Shenny and Sheldonette, not Shamy with a blonde wig. And similarly I like Shamy as Shamy, not Shenny/Shelnard with a straight brunette wig.

So there's that as well. 

I am not remotely worried that the show is pulling out a top-secret Shenny twist (and plus, we all know the real twist is Shelnard, yeah?). And honestly, I do not care if it does, so long as the journey was satisfying and kept the relationships on the show sweet and believable. But right now, it feels as though the thought process goes like this:

Writer 1: Hey, I thought of a sweet thing Sheldon can do or say.

Writer 2: Is it sex, kissing or romantic in some way?

Writer 1: Ew, no. Has it been a year already?

Writer 2: No, no. 

Writer 1: Phew.

Writer 2: Okay, so it's just a general sweet thing?

Writer 1: Yep.

Writer 2: Cool, we'll grab the first warm body we can find for Sheldon to be nice at. (looks outside) cool, it's Penny.

Writer 1: Don't you want to hear the idea first?

Writer 2: Why? 

Writer 1: Fair enough.

Edited May 5, 2016 by wowbagger
Just to make it clear that my issue is the issue of lazy/complacent writing rather than some Trojan Horse Shenny concern.

[nickelette424]

10 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

Of course it has nothing to do with Sheldon and Penny's relationship. People get upset because even though it's unrelated, the scene was such a strong contrast that it just made the Shamy conflict in the same episode sadder. People are angry because the writers always write Sheldon and others having fun together but when it comes to Amy, there're always arguments. Especially the very reason Shamy fall in love is that they understand each other and always enjoy each other's company.
 

But they don't always show Shamy arguing and always show Sheldon having fun with everyone else.  That might be what sticks out to you and what you remember, but that is not how it goes.  I do think that there used to be less scenes with Sheldon and Amy conflicts, but the stakes weren't nearly as high as they are now a days.  But they still have been shown having fun together this season, even though they have been broken up for half of it.  Hell, they were even broken up in one episode that they had fun together.  They've actually gotten along quite well since they've gotten back together.  There are some issues I have with the lack of info on their intimate relationship.  But, I think the couple themselves seem to be very happy together.

 

20 minutes ago, JE7 said:

Wow that's quite a vehement reply...

We shall just have to agree to disagree

No hard feelings, I just don't get the issue.

5 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

I guess I'm somewhere between @camelliayao and @nickelette424, @nibbler747 and @serena_nyc1995. I don't think there's any secret Shenny agenda about having Shenny goof off and have nice moments. I liked 'Intimacy'- not least because Leonard and Amy had their own stuff to do and felt zero qualms about having their significant others gaze deeply into each other's eyes and share secrets (hey, remember that, writers?)

I do think that the writers (not just of this show) historically have difficulty balancing friendships and romances- especially between friends of opposite sexes. It's possible for friends to goof off, get irritated with each other but be basically respectful- but all that harmony and understanding and commonality becomes terribly, terribly hard to write for a romantic couple- even if the couple started out as friends. Because it's easier to have couples at each other's throats. 

So there's that. 

And there's also my issue with the characterisation this season, which has wandered into this swamp where it's really hard to distinguish particular dynamics. @Lionne has brought this up before, and I've cribbed it before as well, so my apologies: whom would you expect to laugh at Sheldon's contract puns, Penny or Amy? Whom would you expect to be super into mediaeval fantasy, Penny or Chaucer-fan Amy? Whom would you expect to 'fake it' and mock Sheldon's thing about rules and procedure, Penny or Amy? And what is more, the show remembered that in an earlier episode this very season, when they had Penny snigger to Amy about how hard they'd be making out watching Sheldon get all excited about his contract with Howard and Leonard! Good lord, writers. When you can't even keep your characterisation straight from one episode to the next in the same season, we have problems. And, while I'm quoting other posters, I'll crib from @koops as well: I like Shenny and Sheldonette, but as Shenny and Sheldonette, not Shamy with a blonde wig. And similarly I like Shamy as Shamy, not Shenny/Shelnard with a straight brunette wig.

So there's that as well. 

I am not remotely worried that the show is pulling out a top-secret Shenny twist (and plus, we all know the real twist is Shelnard, yeah?). And honestly, I do not care if it does, so long as the journey was satisfying and kept the relationships on the show sweet and believable. But right now, it feels as though the thought process goes like this:

Writer 1: Hey, I thought of a sweet thing Sheldon can do or say.

Writer 2: Is it sex, kissing or romantic in some way?

Writer 1: Ew, no. Has it been a year already?

Writer 2: No, no. 

Writer 1: Phew.

Writer 2: Okay, so it's just a general sweet thing?

Writer 1: Yep.

Writer 2: Cool, we'll grab the first warm body we can find for Sheldon to be nice at. (looks outside) cool, it's Penny.

Writer 1: Don't you want to hear the idea first?

Writer 2: Why? 

Writer 1: Fair enough.

I can agree with a lot of that.  But that is lazy writing issues, that is not some underlying scheme.  They do what serves the episode or whatever joke they are trying to tell.  I mean, take this scene that started the conversation.  It seems like someone had an idea for a stupid Kardashian joke and threw it in there.  That doesn't suddenly lessen the Shamy "never have a I ever scene" a couple episodes ago and it doesn't make what is a rather silly conflict in this episode more serious.  It was just a vehicle for a joke.  It has no impact on the overall narrative.  That is happening more and more lately and that is annoying, but I don't mistake these instances with important plot points.