[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9

[snow*flower]

1 hour ago, camelliayao said:

Exactly. And they even let Amy say it. Amy mentioned it twice that she was jealous about Shenny relationship. Especially in 9x21. If the writers really want people to believe there's nothing between Sheldon and Penny, they shouldn't have had Amy mentioned it in the first place, or they could've at least made some sort of explanation. Like maybe Sheldon knows about Amy's concerns and tells her it's ridiculous. Instead we have Penny and her pretty weak defence when Leonard confronted her, "What about your weird relationship with Sheldon?" I'm sorry but isn't that line her admitting that she does has a weird relationship with Sheldon?

And while what I'm about to say is not too relevant but what you said about Leonards confrontation to Penny totally reminds me of when Leonard and the gang used to tease Sheldon about his relationship with Amy.  It's a little like Shenny has replaced Shamy but the verison of Shamy that were just close friends.  But I see how the Shenny relationship can benefit from one another.  They're both learning stuff from each other especially Penny (not that she couldn't do that with Leonard).

[camelliayao]

3 minutes ago, nickelette424 said:

But they don't always show Shamy arguing and always show Sheldon having fun with everyone else.  That might be what sticks out to you and what you remember, but that is not how it goes.  I do think that there used to be less scenes with Sheldon and Amy conflicts, but the stakes weren't nearly as high as they are now a days.  But they still have been shown having fun together this season, even though they have been broken up for half of it.  Hell, they were even broken up in one episode that they had fun together.  They've actually gotten along quite well since they've gotten back together.  There are some issues I have with the lack of info on their intimate relationship.  But, I think the couple themselves seem to be very happy together.

 

No hard feelings, I just don't get the issue.

Like I said, the only time I consider Shamy having fun together after 9x11 is 9x20 tag scene. I should hope there would be more since the very reason they fall in love is because they have fun together and they understand each other! Other than that one scene, it's either them arguing with each other or some other people arguing with them.

9x12 was sweet. 9x13 made me roll my eyes because Amy avoided taking care of Sheldon, which was not only inconsiderate of her, but also very OOC. 914 was meemaw arguing with Amy. 915 was mostly Raj and Kripke and Amy rolling her eyes. The ending confession by Sheldon was touching but it also felt forced. I don't have a problem with 916 and 918. I don't want to talk about 9x17 since it was basically a festival for Shenny. I had mixed feelings about 9x19. Mostly because Amy's eye rolling, Sheldon's ungrateful attitude and the fact that again, the writers made jokes about Amy's desire.

Then it came to 9x21, 9x22 and 9x23. Oh dear. Basically all Shamy did in these three episodes is arguing. On the contrary, we have Shenny having fun in two episodes.

I'm not doing a calculation or saying this to make you agree with me. I'm simply explaining my feelings.

 

[nickelette424]

On May 5, 2016 at 3:32 AM, camelliayao said:

Like I said, the only time I consider Shamy having fun together after 9x11 is 9x20 tag scene. I should hope there would be more since the very reason they fall in love is because they have fun together and they understand each other! Other than that one scene, it's either them arguing with each other or some other people arguing with them.

9x12 was sweet. 9x13 made me roll my eyes because Amy avoided taking care of Sheldon, which was not only inconsiderate of her, but also very OOC. 914 was meemaw arguing with Amy. 915 was mostly Raj and Kripke and Amy rolling her eyes. The ending confession by Sheldon was touching but it also felt forced. I don't have a problem with 916 and 918. I don't want to talk about 9x17 since it was basically a festival for Shenny. I had mixed feelings about 9x19. Mostly because Amy's eye rolling, Sheldon's ungrateful attitude and the fact that again, the writers made jokes about Amy's desire.

Then it came to 9x21, 9x22 and 9x23. Oh dear. Basically all Shamy did in these three episodes is arguing. On the contrary, we have Shenny having fun in two episodes.

I'm not doing a calculation or saying this to make you agree with me. I'm simply explaining my feelings.

 

That's fine.  I am just stating my opinion that I disagree with yours and I don't really get your position  

[camelliayao]

41 minutes ago, nickelette424 said:

I can agree with a lot of that.  But that is lazy writing issues, that is not some underlying scheme.  They do what serves the episode or whatever joke they are trying to tell.  I mean, take this scene that started the conversation.  It seems like someone had an idea for a stupid Kardashian joke and threw it in there.  That doesn't suddenly lessen the Shamy "never have a I ever scene" a couple episodes ago and it doesn't make what is a rather silly conflict in this episode more serious.  It was just a vehicle for a joke.  It has no impact on the overall narrative.  That is happening more and more lately and that is annoying, but I don't mistake these instances with important plot points.

Yes. I don't think the writers have some kind of conspiracy of secretly putting Sheldon and Penny together either. I do believe Shamy and Lenny are end games. It's just that these lazy and bad writing choices have made Shamy and Lenny less likeable and less meant to be.

And actually they write big plots about Shamy and Lenny conflicts. For example, 9x21 and 9x23 for Shamy, 909 and 920 for Lenny. The whole preview of 9X23 was about Shamy conflicts. That's clearly something the show wants to promote, which is sad. Like wowbagger said, it seems the writers think the only way to write romance and keep it funny is for couples to be at each other's throats. Shamy is only funny when Sheldon is an ass and Amy's whiney. Lenny is only funny when Leonard is a doormat and Penny is sarcastic.

If the show keeps interactions between each two characters this way, it's fine. But what they're doing is picking couples against each other while making Sheldon and Penny closer and closer. In addition to that, they're making Amy more isolated from the group. They ruined the Amy and Howard thing. And they never consider to let Amy and Leonard have a bond. If you want to show friends are closer than couples. Why not give Amy some friends? Why are Sheldon and Penny the only ones who get to enjoy the "special bond"?

25 minutes ago, snow*flower said:

And while what I'm about to say is not too relevant but what you said about Leonards confrontation to Penny totally reminds me of when Leonard and the gang used to tease Sheldon about his relationship with Amy.  It's a little like Shenny has replaced Shamy but the verison of Shamy that were just close friends.  But I see how the Shenny relationship can benefit from one another.  They're both learning stuff from each other especially Penny (not that she couldn't do that with Leonard).

Yes. Penny could totally learn from Leonard. Also I remember Leonard was not familiar with pop culture either (The black eyed peas line). The game could've been a nice and funny B plot for Lenny. But instead we have Penny forgetting Leonard's birthday, Leonard lying to Penny about going to the theatre, Leonard and Penny arguing over their mysterious and everchanging financial situation, Leonard and Penny arguing over Mandy, Leonard and Penny arguing over Sheldon, and of course, Penny and Leonard standing in the kitchen.

Edited May 5, 2016 by camelliayao

[camelliayao]

Also I thought Penny graduated high school, right? I'm not from the U.S. but I think any high school graduates should have no problem in knowing what π and Helium is... But Penny acted like she had studied hard to learn those things...

[mirs1]

2 hours ago, wowbagger said:

And there's also my issue with the characterisation this season, which has wandered into this swamp where it's really hard to distinguish particular dynamics. @Lionne has brought this up before, and I've cribbed it before as well, so my apologies: whom would you expect to laugh at Sheldon's contract puns, Penny or Amy? Whom would you expect to be super into mediaeval fantasy, Penny or Chaucer-fan Amy? Whom would you expect to 'fake it' and mock Sheldon's thing about rules and procedure, Penny or Amy? And what is more, the show remembered that in an earlier episode this very season, when they had Penny snigger to Amy about how hard they'd be making out watching Sheldon get all excited about his contract with Howard and Leonard! Good lord, writers. When you can't even keep your characterisation straight from one episode to the next in the same season, we have problems. And, while I'm quoting other posters, I'll crib from @koops as well: I like Shenny and Sheldonette, but as Shenny and Sheldonette, not Shamy with a blonde wig. And similarly I like Shamy as Shamy, not Shenny/Shelnard with a straight brunette wig.

 

The writers repeat their own jokes  a bit too much this season. Sheldon was playing games with Bernie in 9.22, maybe repeating the gag in the very next episode wasn't that necessary; or the gag about  boys ditching girls for an early screening has been done 3 times this season, do those people have other interests? But, really, Penny liking GoT is not at all OOC for her. She already stated that she liked that show in  Season 8, because "it got dragons and people doing it". Amy, instead, likes the authentic Medieval literature, that doesn't mean she has to like whatever novel written in our age that has a medieval background; on the contrary, I expect her to hate that kind of stuff, TBH. Plus, in the episode, there was nothing implying  Amy doesn't like GoT, she just didn't gush over it.

That being said, I found the sneak peek of the episode funny and cute.

Edited May 5, 2016 by mirs1

[joyceraye]

1 hour ago, camelliayao said:

Also I thought Penny graduated high school, right? I'm not from the U.S. but I think any high school graduates should have no problem in knowing what π and Helium is... But Penny acted like she had studied hard to learn those things...

I think in the U S children start high school at 13 ? Penny should have learned those symbols long before then. Penny's having a laugh at Sheldon's expense, since he has no idea what normal children are taught.

[wowbagger]

1 hour ago, mirs1 said:

The writers repeat their own jokes  a bit too much this season. Sheldon was playing games with Bernie in 9.22, maybe repeating the gag in the very next episode wasn't that necessary; or the gag about  boys ditching girls for an early screening has been done 3 times this season, do those people have other interests? But, really, Penny liking GoT is not at all OOC for her. She already stated that she liked that show in  Season 8, because "it got dragons and people doing it". Amy, instead, likes the authentic Medieval literature, that doesn't mean she has to like whatever novel written in our age that has a medieval background; on the contrary, I expect her to hate that kind of stuff, TBH. Plus, in the episode, there was nothing implying  Amy doesn't like GoT, she just didn't gush over it.

That being said, I found the sneak peek of the episode funny and cute.

Oh, I think we could fanwank some of this stuff. The trouble is when the things you need to fanwank begin to mount so fast and furiously that you can't reasonably keep up. And let me admit that my goodwill towards the writers, and therefore my willingness to fanwank, is at an all time low.

and as to Amy and GOT: i like your explanation. It is, unfortunately, making me very annoyed that we didn't have a sequence where amy was ranting about the historical ripoffs on GoT, instead of whatever simultaneously-unearned-and-stale silliness the writers dished up in the name of conflict. But that leads us to the issue of 'why are these the same old stories that you keep telling?' There I think we agree.

now. Let me ask a slightly puckish question. Can we also admit that if Amy WERE super into GoT, we'd be....less....troubled by Amy's reaction to its possible bastardisation of mediaeval speech/life?

Which may be linked to the vagueness of characterisation. I'm not saying that your feelings about GoT are litmus tests for your character, but there is so little specificity allowed anymore.

[mirs1]

57 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

Oh, I think we could fanwank some of this stuff. The trouble is when the things you need to fanwank begin to mount so fast and furiously that you can't reasonably keep up. And let me admit that my goodwill towards the writers, and therefore my willingness to fanwank, is at an all time low.

and as to Amy and GOT: i like your explanation. It is, unfortunately, making me very annoyed that we didn't have a sequence where amy was ranting about the historical ripoffs on GoT, instead of whatever simultaneously-unearned-and-stale silliness the writers dished up in the name of conflict. But that leads us to the issue of 'why are these the same old stories that you keep telling?' There I think we agree.

now. Let me ask a slightly puckish question. Can we also admit that if Amy WERE super into GoT, we'd be....less....troubled by Amy's reaction to its possible bastardisation of mediaeval speech/life?

Which may be linked to the vagueness of characterisation. I'm not saying that your feelings about GoT are litmus tests for your character, but there is so little specificity allowed anymore.

Mayim Bialik wrote an article about GoT in her blog, which I suspect was inspired by the episode; if you ask me, I would have preferred the whole gang (and Amy in particular) in 9.21 had a heated discussion about that show, maybe about the same debated topics the actress touched in that article  (I've never watched a single episode of GoT, nor read any of the novels and I don't plan of doing it anytime soon, so I've no idea if what MB wrote is a correct description of what's going on there and I'm not really interested in the topic, TBH...just for clarifying that I'm not taking a stand against or in favour of GoT) than whatever nonsense happened during that episode. That being said, I don't think what happened in 9.21 had anything to do with a possible contradiction with Amy's or Penny's characterizations and interests either; both of them were there to watch GoT, none of them gushed over it, Penny just said she was updated with the plot since she knew that all "hot guys died", and that was consistent with her previously admitting she liked the show and with the reasons why she liked it.

Edited May 5, 2016 by mirs1

[April]

27 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

Oh, I think we could fanwank some of this stuff. The trouble is when the things you need to fanwank begin to mount so fast and furiously that you can't reasonably keep up. And let me admit that my goodwill towards the writers, and therefore my willingness to fanwank, is at an all time low.

The problem here is that a lot of things you claim need to be fanwanked are merely your own idea of how the characters should be or what stuff they should like or whatever other headcanon you build up over time. Sure, it's frustrating when the lack of information leads you to fill in the blanks and when the show finally approaches the same gap with its own take it might not fit what you imagined it to be. I get that, really. But you may not notice this but some of your ideas are weirdly specific and inflexible even though what the show does isn't particular out of touch with the characters nor the way people behave in real life.

Amy was never portrayed as being into fantasy specifically. So I don't see any reason why she should like GoT. Heck, I'm totally into fantasy and I couldn't care less about GoT. The few attempts to watch it just had me roll my eyes and go "NOPE". Likewise my sister, who's kind of the Penny type and who was always at odds with my geeky/nerdy interests, is currently going through a phase where she's reading a ton of cheesy fantasy books and watches similar shows. So all of this is really not that much of a stretch for me - even calling it "fanwank" is a bit much cause I always associate that with some effort in mental gymnastics to kinda sorta make it fit. But the idea that Amy maybe doesn't like GoT while Penny does? LOL that's nothing!

[Jonny]

I'm not surprised that some people are up in arms about that scene with Sheldon and Penny, as soon as I saw it I thought there was going to be some discussion about it.

I really don't have a problem with it, they are just playing a game one morning  that's it. We all know that Sheldon and Penny are close and have this brotherly/sisterly relationship and that Penny saw a different side to Sheldon in the Intimacy Acceleration. They are also going to be in a lot of scenes together because both are part of the big 3 and they do live together under the same roof.

I know we are more invested in the show than most but sometimes we do over analyse way too much.

[April]

4 minutes ago, Jonny83 said:

I'm not surprised that some people are up in arms about that scene with Sheldon and Penny, as soon as I saw it I thought there was going to be some discussion about it.

I really don't have a problem with it, they are just playing a game one morning  that's it. We all know that Sheldon and Penny are close and have this brotherly/sisterly relationship and that Penny saw a different side to Sheldon in the Intimacy Acceleration. They are also going to be in a lot of scenes together because both are part of the big 3 and they do live together under the same roof.

I know we are more invested in the show than most but sometimes we do over analyse way too much.

Indeed! I'm not surprised by the reaction here cause this isn't my first day on this forum but lmao what do people expect their day-to-day interaction to be like? That they ignore each other all day and only communicate in adversarial snarks? A core part of the show has always been that Penny is drawing the boys out of their bubble and teaching them a bit about the rest of the world, while the guys in turn teach her about their world and she's picking up some knowledge about geek and science stuff. And this little silly game is pretty much just that.

[wowbagger]

16 minutes ago, April said:

The problem here is that a lot of things you claim need to be fanwanked are merely your own idea of how the characters should be or what stuff they should like or whatever other headcanon you build up over time. Sure, it's frustrating when the lack of information leads you to fill in the blanks and when the show finally approaches the same gap with its own take it might not fit what you imagined it to be. I get that, really. But you may not notice this but some of your ideas are weirdly specific and inflexible even though what the show does isn't particular out of touch with the characters nor the way people behave in real life.

Amy was never portrayed as being into fantasy specifically. So I don't see any reason why she should like GoT. Heck, I'm totally into fantasy and I couldn't care less about GoT. The few attempts to watch it just had me roll my eyes and go "NOPE". Likewise my sister, who's kind of the Penny type and who was always at odds with my geeky/nerdy interests, is currently going through a phase where she's reading a ton of cheesy fantasy books and watches similar shows. So all of this is really not that much of a stretch for me - even calling it "fanwank" is a bit much cause I always associate that with some effort in mental gymnastics to kinda sorta make it fit. But the idea that Amy maybe doesn't like GoT while Penny does? LOL that's nothing!

HA! By the way, 'Weirdly Specific and Inflexible' is totally going to be the title of my memoirs, if I ever write them. I'll credit you, of course.

As to the rest of your argument: eh, I already stipulated to mirs that there may be an explanation of the GoT thing. But certainly, by all means, let's pretend that no other examples were cited and no other points were made. Let's all pretend that if Amy were into GoT on the show, we wouldn't be chortling heartily about how witty and perfect it is for the mediaeval enthusiast Amy to be into a mediaeval fantasy universe. We can do that- there's no counterfactual. Yet. 

I do still think there's a lack of sharp characterisation. There is canonical evidence that Amy, rather than Penny, is a word nerd, and yet it's Penny who cackles at Sheldon's terrible puns with Amy right there. There's canonical evidence of Amy bragging (where Sheldon isn't even present) about the Relationship Agreement, but suddenly it's Amy who's simpering (blech) and 'faking it' about Relationship Agreement meetings. Yes, yes, a meeting is not the agreement itself. I love pedantry as much as the next girl, but forgive me- the liking of a formal document but hatred of the protocol that goes into its upkeep? Really? 

And you know what? The show will back up normal!Amy (Poor Amy, suffering Sheldon's whims), just as the show will back up quirky!Amy (pitting Penny and Bernie against each other, geeking out about telescopes in Hawaii). It's a losing battle for either of us to argue what is and is not consistent with Amy's characterisation or established continuity, because- in my opinion- the show will basically have its characters do or say whatever it needs them to.

Amy's characterisation is an uncollapsed waveform, in my 'weirdly specific and inflexible' opinion. So I cede the field.

[April]

12 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

HA! By the way, 'Weirdly Specific and Inflexible' is totally going to be the title of my memoirs, if I ever write them. I'll credit you, of course.

You're welcome! Be sure to send me a copy!

12 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

I do still think there's a lack of sharp characterisation. There is canonical evidence that Amy, rather than Penny, is a word nerd, and yet it's Penny who cackles at Sheldon's terrible puns with Amy right there.

I'll give you that, but then again it's such a minor scene that it's not an issue to me. I don't know how intentional this was because it was such a blink and you'll miss it kind of thing.

12 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

There's canonical evidence of Amy bragging (where Sheldon isn't even present) about the Relationship Agreement, but suddenly it's Amy who's simpering (blech) and 'faking it' about Relationship Agreement meetings. Yes, yes, a meeting is not the agreement itself. I love pedantry as much as the next girl, but forgive me- the liking of a formal document but hatred of the protocol that goes into its upkeep? Really? 

I don't see the big deal when you listen to what she gushes about and in what situation. Context is important and I don't see it as much of a contradiction as you are. Sorry.

12 minutes ago, wowbagger said:

And you know what? The show will back up normal!Amy (Poor Amy, suffering Sheldon's whims), just as the show will back up quirky!Amy (pitting Penny and Bernie against each other, geeking out about telescopes in Hawaii). It's a losing battle for either of us to argue what is and is not consistent with Amy's characterisation or established continuity, because- in my opinion- the show will basically have its characters do or say whatever it needs them to.

Amy's characterisation is an uncollapsed waveform, in my 'weirdly specific and inflexible' opinion. So I cede the field.

The Bold: Exactly! The show allows Amy to be both and I think that's completely fine. I think enriches her character and makes her more interesting than restricting her into a narrowly defined box. She has sides that are more quirky and sides that are more "normal" (whatever that means anyway). It's alright with me.

And I say this as someone who's just as thirsty for more Amy stories as you are as you very well know cause we've been over this a couple of times.

[Lady in Red]

3 hours ago, April said:

A core part of the show has always been that Penny is drawing the boys out of their bubble and teaching them a bit about the rest of the world, while the guys in turn teach her about their world and she's picking up some knowledge about geek and science stuff.

This looks fun, but flash cards are just a start.  It would be great to see her pick up and apply the science concepts as well.  I'd love to see in a future episode, Penny stepping to the white board and using set theory and a Venn diagram to analyze a problem she is having.  Or, even being able to solve a simple probability question.  She failed miserably in "The Scavenger Vortex" in 7.03. 

Penny: All right, hurry up and close the door so they can’t hear us. Would you stop pouting? So, you picked my name. Get over it.

Sheldon: Yes, and do you know what the odds are I’d pick your name?

Penny: No.

Sheldon: It’s not hard, one in five. Now you know why I’m pouting.

 

[Jonny]

Penny getting more into science could be fun and pretty natural considering what her husband and some of her close friends do for a living. But Penny getting into something science related as a new career would be very unrealistic so I don't think the writers would be going in that direction.

[hokie3457]

As a huge fan of Leonard & Penny, I am really looking forward to tonight's episode and the season finale next week.  I really want to see Penny's interaction with her mother-in-law and see how it plays out, her wanting to have another wedding ceremony to please Bev and the fact that Mrs. Hofstadter could end up helping to improve the relationship between Drs. Hofstadter, mother and son.

Also am looking forward to Alfred and Leonard's first on-screen meeting.  From the photos for 9.24, Mr. Hirsch appears very professorial and meets the image I would expect for Leonard's dad. 

Here is to two great episodes to send us off into the hiatus!!!!

[SRAM]

WTF, CBS has a voting thing up on scenes from their shows that supposingly get the viewers motor going and one of those scenes is the Shenny kiss.  The other for TBBT is the Shamy sex scene.  If that is not testing the waters for Shenny, and comparing it to Shamy, I don't know what is.

[veejay]

4 minutes ago, SRAM said:

WTF, CBS has a voting thing up on scenes from their shows that supposingly get the viewers motor going and one of those scenes is the Shenny kiss.  The other for TBBT is the Shamy sex scene.  If that is not testing the waters for Shenny, and comparing it to Shamy, I don't know what is.

[camelliayao]

10 minutes ago, SRAM said:

WTF, CBS has a voting thing up on scenes from their shows that supposingly get the viewers motor going and one of those scenes is the Shenny kiss.  The other for TBBT is the Shamy sex scene.  If that is not testing the waters for Shenny, and comparing it to Shamy, I don't know what is.

Lol. Well look at the bright side, at least this kiss is in Leonard's dream. Although judging from the audience's reaction, I won't be surprised if Shenny do have a real life kiss next season. But you know, they will always be friends and nothing more, because they writers told us so.

[djsurrey]

28 minutes ago, veejay said:

33 minutes ago, SRAM said:

WTF, CBS has a voting thing up on scenes from their shows that supposingly get the viewers motor going and one of those scenes is the Shenny kiss.  The other for TBBT is the Shamy sex scene.  If that is not testing the waters for Shenny, and comparing it to Shamy, I don't know what is.

Perhaps some at cbs want to....

[veejay]

10 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

Perhaps some at cbs want to....

Yep, I smell some puerile humor. 

[Lady in Red]

24 minutes ago, camelliayao said:

Lol. Well look at the bright side, at least this kiss is in Leonard's dream. Although judging from the audience's reaction, I won't be surprised if Shenny do have a real life kiss next season. But you know, they will always be friends and nothing more, because they writers told us so.

The writers will never allow Penny to perceive Sheldon as a sexual threat.  It hasn't happened in nine seasons, and I can't see it happening in the future.  It would severely change the dynamics of the show.  The three main characters can live in the same apartment only because Penny and Leonard do not see Sheldon as a rival to Leonard.  

[legacy99]

I think shenny has had a longer and more intense kiss than llenny this season and its not even close in comparison

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[camelliayao]

Just now, Lady in Red said:

The writers will never allow Penny to perceive Sheldon as a sexual threat.  It hasn't happened in nine seasons, and I can't see it happening in the future.  It would severely change the dynamics of the show.  The three main characters can live in the same apartment only because Penny and Leonard do not see Sheldon as a rival to Leonard.  

Well you never know.