[Spoilers] Discussion Topic: Season 9

[djsurrey]

40 minutes ago, Lionne said:

Apparently TBBT's ratings have just hit 6 and 8 year lows, doing as well as season 1 ratings, which are their lowest. Still won the night, but their ratings numbers have dropped by millions. Considering that Opening Night was one of their highest rated episodes ever, a drop of that many viewers over less than half a season might cause some concern, no?

It reminds me of the old joke. I don't need to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun my slowest friend. 

Edited May 7, 2016 by djsurrey

[Lionne]

10 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

It reminds me of the old joke. I don't need to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun my slowest friend. 

Ha. The same old joke they used to end the Speckerman episode, widely regarded as the worst episode of season 5. Pretty much due to that joke in the tag ruining an otherwise decent episode.

But yeah. They might have their lowest ratings ever, but they still won the night. 

Edited May 7, 2016 by Lionne

[stardustmelody]

1 hour ago, Lionne said:

Apparently TBBT's ratings have just hit 6 and 8 year lows, doing as well as season 1 ratings, which are their lowest. Still won the night, but their ratings numbers have dropped by millions. Considering that Opening Night was one of their highest rated episodes ever, a drop of that many viewers over less than half a season might cause some concern, no?

Opening Night ratings - 17.2 million the evening it aired, went to 23 million with +3 ratings.

last night's episode - 12.2. 

So a 5 million viewer drop between the two evenings, for people who tuned in to watch it Thursday night. For Shamies, you'd think that's a good thing, as the couple is popular. Which is why I find it almost un fathomable to see them regress now. 

But it's not completely impossible to understand. I said almost un fathomable, but I can see a twinge of logic, or at least writer's logic, in what's happening.

 Molars said in an interview this season that having Leonard leave 4A would change the show in some way, that we shouldn't look for him to move out because it would change what people expect the show to look like if that happened. They have created a boundary which they are unwilling to cross. As a result, I think they slam themselves against the wall repeatedly with the character's internal motivations and actions, rehashing the same tired stuff, because anything else would carry them forward where they are unwilling to go. The episode where Leonard and Penny's fighting over whose relationship with Sheldon is more messed up, all related to their living arrangements, which was abruptly ended and abandoned by the deux es machina of Howard's peanut allergy is a good illustration of it. The writers push them towards the point something should break, but save themselves with an outside distraction, something from left field to get them out of their corner. 

The living arrangements affect a lot. As Tensor points out, it's financial folly to pay for two apartments if one isn't being lived in. If Penny has credit card debt and Leonard has student loans, why are they paying for the unused apartment? Why don't they talk about this stuff since financial issues, and the secrets they keep from each other about them, keep cropping up as hot topics? Well you can't, or the living arrangements become too glaringly stupid. 

The living arrangements are also going to stifle Amy and Sheldon too, and it's safer to play that Sheldon indeed has no sexual drive or interest despite the fact he's tasted the forbidden fruit, because you know if Shamy progressed and Amy started spending the night, and Lenny overheard them having sex in his room, they would be vacating so fast! Increased sexual intimacy or an engagement would hurry Lenny out of 4A, and they won't do that, so they have to drop back to status quo. But in doing so, they've regressed and ruined all the season's earlier progress. After all the reasoning I heard about how the break up was necessary to create Shamy progress, and the jubilation over the progress reached once they reunited, I don't understand how the same voices who were so stringent about the break up being necessary for growth can be satisfied with this pay off. 

The parallel reversals are the icing on the cake for me. Sheldon gave up Star Wars for Amy, but blows her off for a lesser movie. Leonard financially floated Penny for years, finally buying her a car. Penny becomes flush and sells the car, proud to be making bank, and buying poor Leonard with his student loans toys to cheer him up. Now Leonard has secret savings and Penny has credit card debt, so she can't give up her job and he won't give her money. The flip flopping about their finances is illogical, and more relevant than ever as they are married and their financial situation happens to affect the other. Raj melted Emily by being so guilty over also merely emailing with Lucy; she thought his sensitivity was adorable. Now he's completely different, bedding two girls at once, bragging about it, being callous to a woman he dated for two years. Beverly thanked Penny for not inviting her to the wedding, now she's hurt by being left out. It's not just incongruous, it's directly incongruous, which is one of the weirdest things about it. I mean, it's just ironic that Sheldon sacrificed the Star Wars premiere just a few months ago, but tosses her for a lesser movie here. 

Molaro said that they could go with Bernie being pregnant, but not Penny, because whatever happens to Bernie won't change anything, while what happens to Penny does. So they are unwilling to take risks or make changes, and the problem is that they have turned potential stepping stones for plots into massive stumbling blocks. 

I think that the ratings are beginning to reflect that issue.

While I can excuse some of the ratings drop off because this time of year they always drop off for all shows and because the industry as a whole is seeing a drop off on network shows, I have to agree that the drop is significant enough that it is reflecting a dissatisfaction and boredom with the writing.   I really hope this gives the writers a wake up call that they really need to make some hurdle jumps (just like they did in Season 3 by adding Bernie and then Amy in the finale of that season)....they need to be looking further out there than running the same stuff over and over.  

The disregard to consistency and character history is glaringly obvious.  In many shows it may not be an issue, but certainly not for BBT which airs nearly every hour every day in the USA when you look at all the stations that run syndication.   CBS itself re-runs current season and usually a season before as well.   So how they think viewers are not going to remember something is beyond me.   It is in our faces too much to disregard it even if we wanted to try.   

Yes, they are seeing a drop off and they need to wake up and smell the roses....which right now seem to be dying on the vine.   It still may be the top rated comedy, but the drop off is significant and once you lose viewers it is nearly impossible to get them back.   

The fact that the season finale did not give any hint at what they may plan and where they may go in S10 does not help either.   You need to give them some lure to bring them back in the fall.  

Too many people are bored with the trio living together.  They want to see Lenny start their married life finally and be dealing with their own issues.  Sure they can interact with Sheldon, but not be under his feet (or more him under their feet) all the time.   They need Sheldon to realize he could lose Amy again if he doesn't wake up and realize he is turning to old patterns and that her patience may wear thin again.   She handled things better in the episode last night between them, but I am still very dissatisfied with his insincere apology and yes it was insincere since he himself called it "nonsense".   Amy said "fine" but you could tell she wasn't very happy still and would have preferred to see him show a bit more remorse.   And where is the affection?   Lacking because as you said they can't move them too quickly or then they would have to address Lenny living with Sheldon.  UGH!   So frustrating.

I know some people who traditionally have always found the show enjoyable even remark that last night was just okay and that the line-cutting scene was lacking purpose and took too much air time.   That speaks volumes because some of those fans are avid "positive support" fans for the show and have never found fault with it before.     So yeah...time the writers wake up and listen.

Edited May 7, 2016 by stardustmelody

[Lionne]

@stardustmelody - I think the thing that kills me the most about it is that the move would literally be nothing more than 30 feet across the hall.

[legacy99]

I'm afraid if they think it's losing fans they'll do something really stupid and we'll have major drama between amy and penny plus sheldon and leonard

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[djsurrey]

1 hour ago, Lionne said:

The parallel reversals are the icing on the cake for me. Sheldon gave up Star Wars for Amy, but blows her off for a lesser movie.

He did not blow off star wars. He gave up opening night on Amy's birthday.

Now he blows off shopping with Amy. Bound to be a disagreeable activity.

[stardustmelody]

17 minutes ago, Lionne said:

@stardustmelody - I think the thing that kills me the most about it is that the move would literally be nothing more than 30 feet across the hall.

Totally agree...so silly really...but they really need to show more than a physical separation of 30 feet.  They need to show both couples focusing on their SO's.   They need to stop the snarky and nasty "jokes" against their SO's and make the show focus more on jokes coming between one couple  to another or couples snark with other family members instead of within the couple.  Show united couples, not divided couples all the time.

They need to get back to more situational things as well.  But tearing down the couples by snark week after week is not helping the show at all.   Seeing Penny put Leonard down weekly or Leonard put Penny down (less common, but it does happen from time to time) and same with Sheldon being snarky with Amy or disregarding her all the time.   Bottom line...they need to strengthen the couples and show them united and focus on situations with family or with other couples to bring their comedy.  Bring back the nemsis to Sheldon stuff again like Kripke against the boys with their robots, etc.   Far funnier than seeing Penny snark on Leonard week after week.   

If there was one thing I appreciated last night was that Penny truly wanted to have a good relationship with Beverly on behalf of Leonard.   It showed her finally acting like an adult and finally adopting her marriage as important to her.  Why can't we see her show more interest like that overall?   

I have no problem with interactions and mixing up the couples now and again to end up with the Lucille Ball guys versus girls moments, etc. and having Lucy and Fred and Ethel manipulate Ricky now and again...but it has become too common place that you have Shlenny (Sheldon/Leonard/Penny) all living under the roof together and everyone else has become an outsider which is not fun to watch IMO.

Edited May 7, 2016 by stardustmelody

[Thyanic]

47 minutes ago, Lionne said:

Apparently TBBT's ratings have just hit 6 and 8 year lows, doing as well as season 1 ratings, which are their lowest. Still won the night, but their ratings numbers have dropped by millions. Considering that Opening Night was one of their highest rated episodes ever, a drop of that many viewers over less than half a season might cause some concern, no?

Opening Night ratings - 17.2 million the evening it aired, went to 23 million with +3 ratings.

last night's episode - 12.2. 

So a 5 million viewer drop between the two evenings, for people who tuned in to watch it Thursday night. For Shamies, you'd think that's a good thing, as the couple is popular. Which is why I find it almost un fathomable to see them regress now. 

But it's not completely impossible to understand. I said almost un fathomable, but I can see a twinge of logic, or at least writer's logic, in what's happening.

 Molars said in an interview this season that having Leonard leave 4A would change the show in some way, that we shouldn't look for him to move out because it would change what people expect the show to look like if that happened. They have created a boundary which they are unwilling to cross. As a result, I think they slam themselves against the wall repeatedly with the character's internal motivations and actions, rehashing the same tired stuff, because anything else would carry them forward where they are unwilling to go. The episode where Leonard and Penny's fighting over whose relationship with Sheldon is more messed up, all related to their living arrangements, which was abruptly ended and abandoned by the deux es machina of Howard's peanut allergy is a good illustration of it. The writers push them towards the point something should break, but save themselves with an outside distraction, something from left field to get them out of their corner. 

The living arrangements affect a lot. As Tensor points out, it's financial folly to pay for two apartments if one isn't being lived in. If Penny has credit card debt and Leonard has student loans, why are they paying for the unused apartment? Why don't they talk about this stuff since financial issues, and the secrets they keep from each other about them, keep cropping up as hot topics? Well you can't, or the living arrangements become too glaringly stupid. 

The living arrangements are also going to stifle Amy and Sheldon too, and it's safer to play that Sheldon indeed has no sexual drive or interest despite the fact he's tasted the forbidden fruit, because you know if Shamy progressed and Amy started spending the night, and Lenny overheard them having sex in his room, they would be vacating so fast! Increased sexual intimacy or an engagement would hurry Lenny out of 4A, and they won't do that, so they have to drop back to status quo. But in doing so, they've regressed and ruined all the season's earlier progress. After all the reasoning I heard about how the break up was necessary to create Shamy progress, and the jubilation over the progress reached once they reunited, I don't understand how the same voices who were so stringent about the break up being necessary for growth can be satisfied with this pay off. 

The parallel reversals are the icing on the cake for me. Sheldon gave up Star Wars for Amy, but blows her off for a lesser movie. Leonard financially floated Penny for years, finally buying her a car. Penny becomes flush and sells the car, proud to be making bank, and buying poor Leonard with his student loans toys to cheer him up. Now Leonard has secret savings and Penny has credit card debt, so she can't give up her job and he won't give her money. The flip flopping about their finances is illogical, and more relevant than ever as they are married and their financial situation happens to affect the other. Raj melted Emily by being so guilty over also merely emailing with Lucy; she thought his sensitivity was adorable. Now he's completely different, bedding two girls at once, bragging about it, being callous to a woman he dated for two years. Beverly thanked Penny for not inviting her to the wedding, now she's hurt by being left out. It's not just incongruous, it's directly incongruous, which is one of the weirdest things about it. I mean, it's just ironic that Sheldon sacrificed the Star Wars premiere just a few months ago, but tosses her for a lesser movie here. 

Molaro said that they could go with Bernie being pregnant, but not Penny, because whatever happens to Bernie won't change anything, while what happens to Penny does. So they are unwilling to take risks or make changes, and the problem is that they have turned potential stepping stones for plots into massive stumbling blocks. 

I think that the ratings are beginning to reflect that issue.

I'm not a rating expert i don't even know how this works to be honest  .. but i agree with the inconsistencies you point it out.. for starters if Molaro didn't like changes or take risks he shouldn't let leonard and penny got married much less sheldon having sex with amy, clearly he (and the rest of the producers and writers) is in his comfort zone with the repetitive plots we see each episode, the same jokes, the same conflicts which never get resolve, i think they're afraid to screw up the "old-good" things that made the show succesful and have worked for them during a long time that's why they don't want to create some new storylines and move on, maybe if none of the "milestones" from this season would have taken place, the things would be exactly the same way we already see at this point, penny living with leonard AND sheldon, sheldon being sheldon, amy being ignored and treated like cr*p by sheldon as before the break up.. nothing new, at least in these fronts nothing has changed and for what we see never will, Leonard being pathetic and apologizing for everything he does in order to make her wife happy and gets sex.. well.. nothing new... the only thing that makes those situations a little bit different is that Lenny got an unnecessary terrible and disappointing wedding and sheldon gave his virginity to amy on her birthday in form of a "once a year gift", i bet the bernie's pregnancy will last at least 3/4 parts of the 10th season, are they trying to make fun of us returning to square 1 again and deleting any kind of progress made by the characters or completely avoiding resolve any "key" situation just to repeat all over again?? because it was and will be a waste of time for many of us... honestly i'm not interested in invest my precious time seeing the same plots again and again and again it's getting boring and old.. i won't buy that.. nope...

[Judith]

1 hour ago, Lionne said:

The parallel reversals are the icing on the cake for me. Sheldon gave up Star Wars for Amy, but blows her off for a lesser movie. I mean, it's just ironic that Sheldon sacrificed the Star Wars premiere just a few months ago, but tosses her for a lesser movie here.

I don't think that it's wrong of Sheldon to prefer to go watch a movie rather than go shopping with Amy. With Star Wars, it was her birthday. This was daily life. 

I agree with a lot of what you said about stalling. I guess that since I only started watching last summer, I have much more patience stored than people who have been watching for years. I also prefer a stalled storyline that has the possibility to be resolved in a satisfying (to me) way than a storyline that is resolved too quickly in a not satisfying way (again, to me).

[Tensor]

Lio,

While I agree with almost all of your non-ratings comments (there is one exception, see below) you know how picky and pedantic I am about the ratings, so...

 

1 hour ago, Lionne said:

Apparently TBBT's ratings have just hit 6 and 8 year lows, doing as well as season 1 ratings, which are their lowest. Still won the night, but their ratings numbers have dropped by millions.

While they have dropped to season one levels, you have to remember, the same number in 2007-8, was worth a lot less than the same number is worth  now.  In 2007-8 the average, non-sports, broadcast demo rating was 3.32.  So, a 2.9 would have been 88% of the average broadcast show.    This year, the average, non-sports, broadcast, demo rating is projected to be 1.45 (it's currently 1.48), which mean the 2.9 is 200% of the average broadcast show.  That 2.9 in 2007, garnered 7.79 million viewers, compared to the 13.22 million it had on Thursday.  

 

1 hour ago, Lionne said:

 Considering that Opening Night was one of their highest rated episodes ever, a drop of that many viewers over less than half a season might cause some concern, no?

Opening Night ratings - 17.2 million the evening it aired, went to 23 million with +3 ratings.

last night's episode - 12.2. 

It depends on how you define ever.  That 17.2 million, for same day, is no better than 40th, for the run (all 24 episodes of the 7th season were higher than this) .  If you include the live + 7, it is 11th, so you might have an argument there.  The Live + 7 lift was over 7 million viewers.  No other show has ever been over 7 million.  BTW, Thursday's show had 13.2 million viewers in final, it had 12.86 million for overnights.  

 

1 hour ago, Lionne said:

 

So a 5 million viewer drop between the two evenings, for people who tuned in to watch it Thursday night.

It would be a bit more disconcerting if it hadn't happen before. 

In season 6, episode 12 had 20.00 million viewers, episode 24 had 15.24 million.  A loss of 4.76 million.

In season 7, episode 12 had 19.05 million(episode 13 had 20.35 million), episode 23 had 14.42.  A loss of 4.53 million (5.93 million)

In season 8, episode 12 had 18.41 million, episode 23 had 13.85 million.  A loss of 4.56 million.

This year, episode 11 had 17.23 million, episode 23 had 13.22, a loss of 4.01 million.  This year, the loss was actually the smallest in the last four years.  However, you may notice that the mid season numbers have dropped by roughly 750,000 each year, while the end of season numbers have dropped by roughly 600,000 per year.

 

1 hour ago, Lionne said:

 

Why don't they talk about this stuff since financial issues, and the secrets they keep from each other about them, keep cropping up as hot topics? Well you can't, or the living arrangements become too glaringly stupid. 

This is where I don't agree.  I think it is already glaring obvious.   

 

1 hour ago, Lionne said:

I think that the ratings are beginning to reflect that issue.

I don't disagree completely.  While I think the majority of the missing viewers can be explained by exodus of viewers from broadcast television, there are some who are leaving based on their disappointment with the show.  I know several people who have moved on from the show.  I struggled with it earlier this year, and overall I'm still a bit uncertain.  

But you have to remember, with even as much as they've lost, it is still the biggest comedy and second biggest show out there.   You made an analogy of someone only has to out run someone else, not the bear chasing them.   There is a part of one of the ratings sites I look at that comments on what shows they believe will be cancelled, and which shows will be renewed.  It's called the Cancellation Bear, because the analogy you used is dead on.  Basically you only have to be better than the other types of shows you are similar to. on your own network.

 As long as TBBT has higher ratings than everything else on CBS, no matter how bad you may think the writing has gotten, they are not going to cancel it, unless production costs become higher than the revenue it brings in, and that will only happen when the ratings drop enough so that revenue drops. 

And I don't expect that to happen over the next year.  They could lose 50% of their audience next year, and still be higher than the broadcast average.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nogravitasatall]

I so want to see a joyful Leonard and Penny. Why they now have to keep up the snark so much of the time escapes me. I cringed at the drinking game's conclusion. Leonard punched Penny in the gut at end of S8 (metaphorically) and either she forgives him or not. She said she did. But she certainly has gotten her licks in going forward.

However, I'm sure it will end comfortably. Eventually.  

[mirs1]

The main thing that bothers me about the living arrangements is that, not only there writers don't want to change them, but also they create conflicts among the characters that could be easily avoided or lessened if Lenny lived in 4B. If you want Lenny to have an issue in the cabin episode, choose something else as a topic, because if the problem is the money, the obvious answer is "Stop paying for two apartments". If you want Sheldnar to fight over something, and even Penny taking Sheldon's side, choose something different from the RA, because, again, the obvious answer is "Move out". It's like rubbing in our face that they are ignoring the elephant in the room and want us to ignore it too...

Edited May 7, 2016 by mirs1

[Nogravitasatall]

3 minutes ago, mirs1 said:

The main thing that bothers me about the living arrangements is that, not only there writers don't want to change them, but also they create conflicts among the characters that could be easily avoided or lessened if Lenny lived in 4B. If you want Lenny to have an issue in the cabin episode, choose something else as a topic, because if the problem is the money, the obvious answer is "Stop paying for two apartments". If you want Sheldnar to fight over something, and even Penny taking Sheldon's side, choose something different from the RA, because, again, the obvious answer is "Move out". It's like rubbing in our face that they are ignoring the elephant in the room and want us to ignore it too...

To maintain the premise they have to nobble the characters. If only they could do it with more artfulness, so we wouldn't notice.  However, the essence of sitcoms is the situation. These guys are a little trapped by their format.

[mirs1]

4 hours ago, Nogravitasatall said:

To maintain the premise they have to nobble the characters. If only they could do it with more artfulness, so we wouldn't notice.  However, the essence of sitcoms is the situation. These guys are a little trapped by their format.

I agree on that, their format doesn't allow them too much liberty. And, honestly, I don't think the show will change too much after (if ever) Lenny move out. The main set will always be 4A living room, the gang will always hang out there, in particular there will be plenty of Shenny scenes either in 4A and 4B, Shelnard will always work in their adjacent desks, maybe some of Leonard's collectables will still be in his old room, because if that room is empty, then the problem of finding Sheldon a new roommate if Amy doesn't move in immediately will rise. The point is that the whole 4A-4B situation is based on a two bedroom apartment (so it is more suitable for two roommates than for a couple) and a (little) one-bedroom apartment (again, more suitable for a single than for a couple). None of them is the ideal apartment for couples. Of course, that isn't anybody's fault, the writers didn't imagine how far the show could have gone when it begun or that at some point Shamy would be in the picture, maybe the plan was that, if ever the show would have gotten to the point of Lenny living together, it would have been enough to switch apartments. Now, there isn't an optimal option any more, they have to fit 2 couples in a space that isn't planned for 2 couples. I don't think they will ever change the main sets, so they will do the best they can out out of it. In a way, I understand the "problem" and I see why for them is difficult to address it. But, that doesn't mean that the ideal solution is to ignore it completely. ATM, I would have been happy with a (even not 100% convincing) explanation of the reason why Lenny are still there (the reason they gave us in 9.04 doesn't apply anymore) and with the writers  avoiding conflicts over things that, in a very obvious ways, are connected with the living arrangements as they are.

Edited May 7, 2016 by mirs1

[wowbagger]

1 hour ago, mirs1 said:

The main thing that bothers me about the living arrangements is that, not only there writers don't want to change them, but also they create conflicts among the characters that could be easily avoided or lessened if Lenny lived in 4B. If you want Lenny to have an issue in the cabin episode, choose something else as a topic, because if the problem is the money, the obvious answer is "Stop paying for two apartments". If you want Sheldnar to fight over something, and even Penny taking Sheldon's side, choose something different from the RA, because, again, the obvious answer is "Move out". It's like rubbing in our face that they are ignoring the elephant in the room and want us to ignore it too...

I know! So bizarre! I accuse these writers of laziness all the time, but it is kind of amazing that they keep poking the bear like this. The 'bear', in this case, being 'logic'.

I'll add another to the list: You want Sheldon and Amy's sexual relationship to remain......not so sexual? You want to avoid the hideous spectre of Shamy's sex life driving Lenny out of 4a? Simple! Have Amy ALSO not be into sex more than once a year on her birthday. Then you avoid the possibility of Amy and Sheldon having sex, freaking out Lenny and driving them all the way across the hall, where be dragons or something. You don't have to keep having Amy drop hints, Sheldon ignore them and people say 'ouf, this again?!?' You can get the scenario you want without making it look like you're mocking the horny frumpy girl.

And there's a flipside to this 'hanging a lantern on narrative inconsistencies', and that is 'failing to exploit obvious and fruitful narrative avenues'.

here's one: Sheldon and Penny driving each other up.the.freaking.WALL with the living arrangements. It wouldn't have to be nasty or acrimonious. It could be fundamentally sweet-natured, in the way that siblings can drive each other crazy. it would be funny and consistent. But no! Can't have that! People might wonder why they're still living together then! Quick, make up some bullshit financial drama!.....that......could......ALSO be at least partially addressed by NOT PAYING FOR TWO FLATS.

here's another: Sheldon and amy have sex, and Lenny are amused/horrified. Picture the awkward conversations! Imagine Leonard manfully trying to be civil to Amy at her most brusque! Imagine Amy trying to bond with horrible specificity with Penny! Imagine the shell-shocked and traumatised conversations Lenny would have! Imagine the array of fabulous patented Johnny Galecki reaction shots! But no! Can't have that! We might wonder why Lenny are still living in 4a if it's that awkward! So here, quick, have Lenny argue about secret bank accounts and debt! Penny has debt this week! Leonard will probably have magically reappearing student debt next week!

here's a third: During the GoT viewing episode, Penny brought up Leonard's attachment to Sheldon (not romantic, although I am holding out hope for a #Shelnardtwist). This is an actually interesting and plausible development that could explain much. But the show won't go there because.....actually, I don't really know why. Because fixing it might mean that an obvious solution is for Leonard to tearfully move to the Undiscovered Country From Whose Bourn No Traveller Returns? Apartment 4b?

[djsurrey]

I think the writers know their craft and work hard at it. It is easy enough to sit on a sofa and be a critic. I figure they have different priorities than devoted fans.

Who would live on the fourth floor of a building with a broken elevator anyway? The living arrangements are crazy but actually they always have been. It just adds to the quirkiness of the characters. I suspect the average fan expects strange. It is not necessarily a flaw.

[wowbagger]

28 minutes ago, djsurrey said:

I think the writers know their craft and work hard at it. It is easy enough to sit on a sofa and be a critic.

I confess I've never really understood this argument. So if I buy a pair of shoes and the soles fall off within minutes, I'm not allowed to complain because I'm not personally a cobbler? If a car spontaneously explodes, are we not allowed to sue the manufacturer unless we can design and build the car ourselves? I'm reasonably sure that Adam Smith never had that in mind when he discussed specialisation in industrialised societies,,,,

[JE7]

1 hour ago, wowbagger said:

I know! So bizarre! I accuse these writers of laziness all the time, but it is kind of amazing that they keep poking the bear like this. The 'bear', in this case, being 'logic'.

I'll add another to the list: You want Sheldon and Amy's sexual relationship to remain......not so sexual? You want to avoid the hideous spectre of Shamy's sex life driving Lenny out of 4a? Simple! Have Amy ALSO not be into sex more than once a year on her birthday. Then you avoid the possibility of Amy and Sheldon having sex, freaking out Lenny and driving them all the way across the hall, where be dragons or something. You don't have to keep having Amy drop hints, Sheldon ignore them and people say 'ouf, this again?!?' You can get the scenario you want without making it look like you're mocking the horny frumpy girl.

And there's a flipside to this 'hanging a lantern on narrative inconsistencies', and that is 'failing to exploit obvious and fruitful narrative avenues'.

here's one: Sheldon and Penny driving each other up.the.freaking.WALL with the living arrangements. It wouldn't have to be nasty or acrimonious. It could be fundamentally sweet-natured, in the way that siblings can drive each other crazy. it would be funny and consistent. But no! Can't have that! People might wonder why they're still living together then! Quick, make up some bullshit financial drama!.....that......could......ALSO be at least partially addressed by NOT PAYING FOR TWO FLATS.

here's another: Sheldon and amy have sex, and Lenny are amused/horrified. Picture the awkward conversations! Imagine Leonard manfully trying to be civil to Amy at her most brusque! Imagine Amy trying to bond with horrible specificity with Penny! Imagine the shell-shocked and traumatised conversations Lenny would have! Imagine the array of fabulous patented Johnny Galecki reaction shots! But no! Can't have that! We might wonder why Lenny are still living in 4a if it's that awkward! So here, quick, have Lenny argue about secret bank accounts and debt! Penny has debt this week! Leonard will probably have magically reappearing student debt next week!

here's a third: During the GoT viewing episode, Penny brought up Leonard's attachment to Sheldon (not romantic, although I am holding out hope for a #Shelnardtwist). This is an actually interesting and plausible development that could explain much. But the show won't go there because.....actually, I don't really know why. Because fixing it might mean that an obvious solution is for Leonard to tearfully move to the Undiscovered Country From Whose Bourn No Traveller Returns? Apartment 4b?

Well said as allways, and you know what happens when you continue poking the bear? At some point it is one poke to many and .......

[serena_1995]

This is completely unrelated to the episodes but I wonder why Sheldon , Leonard, Howard never(in all 9 years)  date any geeky girls who are  into costumes, comic books and  science fiction ? You know, the kind of women who would go with them to watch movies(atleast  the very mainstream Marvel or Star Wars ones)  ? How is that possible in this day and age ?

I noticed, Leonard, Howard , Sheldon and Raj are always going off to comic conventions, screenings, movies and events alone, without their wives or girlfriends. That kinda sounds depressing  that they are totally resigned to the fact that their SO won't even consider going with them. 

I wanted them to explore Emily being a horror movie nerd or Claire being a sci-fi writer, but they are both reduced to being plot devices to inflate Raj's ego, more than anything else.

In 9x23,  I  liked how they were remembering all the times they stood in lines. Would have been nice if their partners were also a part of the fun.

Edited May 7, 2016 by serena_nyc1995

[April]

Regarding the idea "the ratings reflect the bad writing" I think @Tensor wonderfully elaborated already how that doesn't add up with the reality of ratings in this day and age. But since right now most of us have a lot of issues with the show it's all too tempting to project that onto the general audience and conclude "Oh they're leaving in droves because they don't like the same things I don't like!" Yes, a lot of people have stopped watching the show live or even stopped watching period. But there are also tons of people who simply watch their shows on their own terms now whenever they have time/are in the mood or by other means that are not registered with the traditional ratings. And for all those people who abandon the show there are still some that also discover the show for the first time and become new fans even this late in the game thanks to plenty of binge watching opportunities that allow them to catch up in a cheap and easy way. So all in all it's not as easy as saying "Oh the writing is stale that's why the ratings are so low!"

Anyway...

I agree with a lot of the issues brought up here. The show is writing itself into a corner by stuffing the room full of elephants and the only way to get out of that is to finally address them and sort this mess out. It's quite telling that literally everyone is pretty much on the same page with the question about what issues need to be tackled - you see it from fans online, you see it in reviews and articles, heck, you hear the actors making wishlists that pretty much cover everything we shippers want! So I don't think the writers are completely clueless about what they're doing here. They know. And they tell us they know by letting the characters voice the same concerns, effectively decorating those elephants with a bunch of lampshades.

The problem here is their hesitancy to move anything forward in a timely manner. They continue to set the stage and nudge ever so slightly closer to some big changes that already everybody knows are inevitable but the shy away from taking the plunge. It's kind of a weird test of patience - who will crack first? the audience or the writers? Maybe S10 will finally bring the change after they exhausted every other narrative possibility to stall the inevitable. Who knows. I can only hope they'll do that cause I wholeheartedly agree that there are a ton of obvious and fruitful narrative avenues to explore. Story material that would not only feel fresh after all those years cause it would throw the characters into new situations but also hilarious and sweet and whatever other positive emotion/reaction you want to elicit from your audience towards your show. It's a win-win situation so please, show, do everyone a favour and get on with it.

[Jonny]

I think they do have plans to address a lot of the major storylines that are obvious to fans and pretty much everyone it's just a question of timing. I think the fact the show is based around evolving and character growth that the writers do have a dilemma at times on how quickly they make those changes without annoying specifically the casual fans. We get frustrated and over analyse at times because we are so invested in the show but there are many millions who just watch the show and don't get into the debate of storylines much as we do.

I am actually confident that we will see some major speeding up and changes in Season 10 because it simply has to, It's not like we are at Season 6 and the writers are confident they have another four years to get to that end point they have in mind for each character. We are heading into most likely the end stretch here unless they plan to do a few more seasons than any of us think.

In terms of the ratings talk I don't know enough about it to really speculate, but I have read Tensor's ratings info (thanks Tensor!) and it seems like the show is still doing very well overall especially if you compare it to the current viewing climate. I don't think there is enough data to suggest the show is in a major viewing figure decline, obviously if Season 10 has a big drop then maybe then we can start discussing that.

For all the frustration we may have about a particular story-line or character at the end of the day we love the show otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it in as much detail or analysis as we do.

[mirs1]

6 hours ago, wowbagger said:

I know! So bizarre! I accuse these writers of laziness all the time, but it is kind of amazing that they keep poking the bear like this. The 'bear', in this case, being 'logic'.

I'll add another to the list: You want Sheldon and Amy's sexual relationship to remain......not so sexual? You want to avoid the hideous spectre of Shamy's sex life driving Lenny out of 4a? Simple! Have Amy ALSO not be into sex more than once a year on her birthday. Then you avoid the possibility of Amy and Sheldon having sex, freaking out Lenny and driving them all the way across the hall, where be dragons or something. You don't have to keep having Amy drop hints, Sheldon ignore them and people say 'ouf, this again?!?' You can get the scenario you want without making it look like you're mocking the horny frumpy girl.

I've never thought that Shamy sex life (or lack thereof) could have anything to do with the fact the writers don't want to alter the  living arrangements; interesting, you might have a point...I've always thought that it more generally had to do with the "Sheldon being Sheldon" stuff or, more likely, to the intention by the writers to capitalize their investment having another "big" and unexpected episode, like 9.11. The line about the "once a year" raised curiosity in fans and media (they got more than one question about it) and it kind of created some interest about Shamy possible "second time" (no one will care about their third time, if we ever get there, LOL!) But, as things are right now, everything appears to be so dangerously close to Amy's next birthday, that maybe a new explanation is needed.

As for Amy and her "hints", as I've said many times, I don't think that, apart from the last episode, they made her appear horny nor frumpy. She appeared joyful and a bit flirty, IMO. Last episode, of course, doesn't fall into that description, it was, as Amy herself admitted, 100% Shamy 1.0. The point is that for me it's another example of the writers ignoring the elephant in the room and asking us to ignore it too. If the "massage" stuff (awful line, offensive towards Amy, I'm not denying that)  happened after the break up then, seriously, Amy has way more to complain about than a three minutes massage.  It doesn't make sense she doesn't address that issue, with Sheldon (that would be ideal) or at least with her girl friends when she is venting about her relationship.

Edited May 7, 2016 by mirs1

[Stephen Hawking]

11 hours ago, Lionne said:

widely regarded as the worst episode of season 5.

I think Speckerman is, probably the worst episode of all time.

[Judith]

1 minute ago, Stephen Hawking said:

I think Speckerman is, probably the worst episode of all time.

Why?

[A.D.A.]

4 hours ago, serena_nyc1995 said:

This is completely unrelated to the episodes but I wonder why Sheldon , Leonard, Howard never(in all 9 years)  date any geeky girls who are  into costumes, comic books and  science fiction ? You know, the kind of women who would go with them to watch movies(atleast  the very mainstream Marvel or Star Wars ones)  ? How is that possible in this day and age ?

I noticed, Leonard, Howard , Sheldon and Raj are always going off to comic conventions, screenings, movies and events alone, without their wives or girlfriends. That kinda sounds depressing  that they are totally resigned to the fact that their SO won't even consider going with them. 

I wanted them to explore Emily being a horror movie nerd or Claire being a sci-fi writer, but they are both reduced to being plot devices to inflate Raj's ego, more than anything else.

In 9x23,  I  liked how they were remembering all the times they stood in lines. Would have been nice if their partners were also a part of the fun.

Yeah, there were a few, but they never stuck around. There were those two girls that Raj (or was it Howard?) and Sheldon picked up once. They ended up playing Guitar Hero or Singstar with them, they seemed fun. Then there was Leonard's first missstep during the relationship with Priya, and Sheldon's ersatz-date for Amy. On the other hand, you have the kind of mean-spirited throwaway jokes; the fat Sailor Moon Raj and Howard slept with and the (also fat) unsexy Wonder Woman cosplayer that Stuart dated come to mind. Haha fat women who think they can be desireable, what a knee-slapper. Anyway, I wish we had seen more of some of the women in the first category, too, or that Claire had been at the comic book store because she actually liked comics. But then, we'd have a woman character who couldn't shake her head at her boyfriend in maternally understanding, fond disbelief when the next round of comic book discussion comes around and that ain't happening.